Samsung F8500 - new industry standard? [please use links to newer thread] - Page 58 - AVS Forum
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post #1711 of 1868 Old 03-30-2013, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by mightymouseusf View Post

I just heard back from David at Avical. He says he can schedule a calibration with Ken for Monday night. If I leave the set on from now till then, I should hit the 100 hour break in mark. Again, there is no telling when these guys will be touring again. Could be 6 months. At the same time, I don't want to risk damaging the set by leaving it on that long. David says leaving it on overnight once or twice just to make sure it's not a lemon is all I need. What do you guys think?

Last year I took a more aggressive approach with my E series.
I really wanted to blast past that 200 hour mark.
I put the Cell Light to max of 20 and adjusted contrast, brightness and gama according to lighting conditions.
Left it on for 10 days straight and overnight with the ID channel (semi-transparent logo.smile.gif
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post #1712 of 1868 Old 03-30-2013, 01:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Not necessarily. If a display shows a small amount of IR currently, then the fact that its current state of IR is very minor, is no guarantee that subjecting the display to more 'abuse' in terms of longer periods of logos etc, might not result in worse IR.

Yes, and you can also get hit by a bus tomorrow, too. So by all means, you should give serious consideration to staying inside. But be aware, if you do that, you might get crushed when the tree outside falls and comes through your ceiling.
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BTW, D-Nice agrees with me and finds IR to be very prevalent in plasmas and Panasonic is no exception. I've gotten several PMs in the last several days from Panny VT50 owners that freely admit to IR issues.

Well, I'm thrilled to hear this. D-Nice and I have nothing to talk about, I'm glad you two are close. I freely admit that I have absolutely no image retention issues on my VT50. I have now spent more of my life searching for this non-problem on my TV than could possibly be justified rationally. I simply cannot make it a problem. There is absolutely no way my unit is uncommon.
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I'm really glad you haven't experienced it and I hope that continues.

The idea that it wouldn't continue is patently absurd. Akin to the idea that you all should stay inside because of that bus thing I mentioned above.
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But your experience is no guarantee it won't happen to others.

No, it's not a guarantee for others. But it means that others are quite likely to share my experience. And if we had real data instead of stray complaints, this would be apparent. AVS reports are "squeaky wheel" data, which is inherently an inaccurate sample. While I wouldn't suggest ignoring it, I would strongly suggest not taking it very seriously either.
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As I've said and D-Nice repeated, you need to use sound judgement with what you watch, how long you watch 'offending' material and make sure to use things like the orbiter to lessen the odds of IR...IOW, use sound judgement.

I do not use any "sound judgement."

I turn on my TV and watch it.

I do not use the orbiter.

I watch whatever I want.

I urge others to do the same -- so long as they are not using "torch mode".

(I also urge anyone who is going to game extensively, run a PC extensively or watch mostly one channel to buy an LCD).
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I think there is a bias among reviewers & calibrators toward plasma.

Preferring something superior isn't "bias."

Preferring white people to black people is bias.

Preferring Los Angeles to New York is a form of bias.

But when judging something that has a finite output type, one can use objective criteria to make a preference. And that preference is not bias.

Reviewers and calibrators prefer accurate, contrasty pictures. Once an LCD could provide that, it was considered in league with the best TVs. Until then, they dismissed LCD. This doesn't resemble bias. Bias would be preferring Pansonic to Sony because "Sony is a bunch of idiots".

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #1713 of 1868 Old 03-30-2013, 02:29 AM
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There are a few boring people on here. This panel is doing something rather revolutionary for plasmas, and bringing in at a great price point. Panasonic lovers seem to bash everything else despite their drawbacks. Ken and co who have reviewed this panel, thank you for your balanced and thorough observations. Its clearly a compelling piece of technology.
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post #1714 of 1868 Old 03-30-2013, 02:55 AM
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Is this gentle to burning plasma ?

Is the screen good to connect only to computer ?

Is this a screen with deep coloer ?

Why is there no information on the number of colors?
Colors transmission methods ?
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post #1715 of 1868 Old 03-30-2013, 03:31 AM
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Originally Posted by floridaman View Post

Got my PN64F8500 delivered from Best buy today. Originally ordered through Amazon and that set was delivered a couple of days ago with a cracked screen. Refused the delivery and got an immediate refund from Amazon. Went to BB and purchased yesterday and got the set delivered today. BB gave me a $250 discount. The total price with tax was less than the prices being charged by online retailers. Thankfully the set today didn't have a cracked screen. Got the unit setup in Movie mode and the picture didn't appear to be very bright. Checked all of the picture settings and they were good. Went through more settings and changed the color tone. Problem was that no matter what tone it was set to there was no difference in the picture. I am thinking great this set is defective. I did install the current firmware update. I decided to call Samsung and they connected remotely and verified the color tone settings weren't working. They tested on their set and it worked normally. Ended up doing a picture reset and everything went back to factory settings. My god what a difference this made. The picture was bright and had come to life. Much brighter than the VT50 I just sold. The color tone settings are now work correctly. This was a very interesting discovery and makes me wonder if some of the displays in the stores had exhibited the same issue based on some of the comments by other posters. The picture on this set is far superior over the VT50 in my opinion. The video processing is a1000% better than the Vt50. The screen is uniform unlike the VT50 which exhibited DSE. The picture is absolutely stunning. The colors are outstanding and the black levels are to die for. Aesthetically the set is gorgeous. The buzzing that plagued last years models is completely gone. Kudos to Samsung for finally stepping up to the plate.

Really glad it worked out for you. Great that you are happy with the TV. This is very encouraging as I like brightness too. Can't wait

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post #1716 of 1868 Old 03-30-2013, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Full field. I was not at the store to do in depth measurements.... nor was I there to validate Kevin's work. All I know is the 64F8500 measured 0.0017fL (it dipped to 0.0016fL for a few secs) which is also what Kevin measured, per Robert. I was very impressed with the brightness of this display. It will easily trump any 2013 Panasonic in that department.... and yes that includes the ZT60.

WOW! DNice giving the sammy some love...thats not common!wink.gif
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post #1717 of 1868 Old 03-30-2013, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Full field. I was not at the store to do in depth measurements.... nor was I there to validate Kevin's work. All I know is the 64F8500 measured 0.0017fL (it dipped to 0.0016fL for a few secs) which is also what Kevin measured, per Robert. I was very impressed with the brightness of this display. It will easily trump any 2013 Panasonic in that department.... and yes that includes the ZT60.

D-Nice,

Could you please post more of your feedback and overall impressions of the F8500? Were you able to see how well it holds its blacks in darker scenes? I am considering this display as well as the VT60 and ZT60 once we know how those perform although "dark room" viewing will be my priority with Blu-ray.

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post #1718 of 1868 Old 03-30-2013, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

D-Nice,

Could you please post more of your feedback and overall impressions of the F8500? Were you able to see how well it holds its blacks in darker scenes? I am considering this display as well as the VT60 and ZT60 once we know how those perform although "dark room" viewing will be my priority with Blu-ray.

I am going to venture a guess and say wait wink.gif if you are primarily concerned with dark room viewing......JMHO though....Panasonic usually shines with the black levels and the ZT60 should be a winner and hopfully an improvement to the VT50/60.......While it look like the F8500 is a really good set, it may not be the "best" for your situation....I know for me the F8500 is looking more and more like the one I am going to get as I have viewing split between bright and dark room viewing and the bright tends to be quite bright......
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post #1719 of 1868 Old 03-30-2013, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by yamvmax View Post

WOW! DNice giving the sammy some love...thats not common!wink.gif

It's nice seeing those who are what I'd call VERY knowledgeable be so unbiased...
Although adding "It will easily trump any 2013 Panasonic in that department.... and yes that includes the ZT60." had to kill the Samsung bashers who come over here just to spew their anti-Samsung crap.. Guess you can tell that stuff irks me smile.gif. Just can't understand why they feel the need to come to another brands forum at all if they feel they already have what they want and prefer??
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post #1720 of 1868 Old 03-30-2013, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Yes, and you can also get hit by a bus tomorrow, too. So by all means, you should give serious consideration to staying inside. But be aware, if you do that, you might get crushed when the tree outside falls and comes through your ceiling.
Well, I'm thrilled to hear this. D-Nice and I have nothing to talk about, I'm glad you two are close. I freely admit that I have absolutely no image retention issues on my VT50. I have now spent more of my life searching for this non-problem on my TV than could possibly be justified rationally. I simply cannot make it a problem. There is absolutely no way my unit is uncommon.
The idea that it wouldn't continue is patently absurd. Akin to the idea that you all should stay inside because of that bus thing I mentioned above.
No, it's not a guarantee for others. But it means that others are quite likely to share my experience. And if we had real data instead of stray complaints, this would be apparent. AVS reports are "squeaky wheel" data, which is inherently an inaccurate sample. While I wouldn't suggest ignoring it, I would strongly suggest not taking it very seriously either.
I do not use any "sound judgement."

I turn on my TV and watch it.

I do not use the orbiter.

I watch whatever I want.

I urge others to do the same -- so long as they are not using "torch mode".

I think your advice is poor. Don't use the orbiter? Watch whatever you want even during the first 100 hours? I also think your analogies are a bit off the wall. What can I say?
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post


Preferring something superior isn't "bias."

Preferring white people to black people is bias.

Preferring Los Angeles to New York is a form of bias.

But when judging something that has a finite output type, one can use objective criteria to make a preference. And that preference is not bias.

Reviewers and calibrators prefer accurate, contrasty pictures. Once an LCD could provide that, it was considered in league with the best TVs. Until then, they dismissed LCD. This doesn't resemble bias. Bias would be preferring Pansonic to Sony because "Sony is a bunch of idiots".

There were several reviews where respected reviewers declared the Sharp Elite as the best TV ever. So is plasma still superior to this? Tom Norton gave the Sony 950 a stellar review. LED technology, full array.

Mark, it depends on what kind of LED/LCD you're comparing plasma to. Reviewers prefer contrasty pictures? You won't find any plasma that does contrast better than the Sony 950 and its color is accurate.

Generalizations can be just as detrimental and inaccurate as bias.
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post #1721 of 1868 Old 03-30-2013, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by cooldude45 View Post

There are a few boring people on here. This panel is doing something rather revolutionary for plasmas, and bringing in at a great price point. Panasonic lovers seem to bash everything else despite their drawbacks. Ken and co who have reviewed this panel, thank you for your balanced and thorough observations. Its clearly a compelling piece of technology.

Thanks cooldude. I too can't begin to fathom some of the lack of objectivity here. I have absolutely zero bias for plasma, LED, Samsung, Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba etc. Whatever tech and whatever manufacturer is producing the best picture to my eyes, is the one that gets my money.

Each tech, each display has strengths & weaknesses. Everyone needs to see these displays before choosing. Taking my word or anyone's word for what's 'best' is not well advised. My feelings are simply one data point among many. But the out-of-hand, obvious biases of some are just really silly IMO.
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post #1722 of 1868 Old 03-30-2013, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by yamvmax View Post

WOW! DNice giving the sammy some love...thats not common!wink.gif

Yes he did. I wasn't expecting D-Nice to show up in the store during the time I was there, but I was glad he did in that his observations were much appreciated.

We also got a chance to patch up a rough period he and I had last year and that's always a good thing. smile.gif

There's is lots to love about the F8500 and I was really fortunate seeing one that was calibrated. You usually aren't that fortunate, particularly in the average retail environment. Seeing 4 calibrated panels at Robert's store was a treat!
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post #1723 of 1868 Old 03-30-2013, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

D-Nice,

Could you please post more of your feedback and overall impressions of the F8500? Were you able to see how well it holds its blacks in darker scenes? I am considering this display as well as the VT60 and ZT60 once we know how those perform although "dark room" viewing will be my priority with Blu-ray.

Dave, I can tell you we put on The Dark Knight and that has quite a number of dark scenes. They were, from my point of view, very impressive to say the least...even under the tent! wink.gif
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post #1724 of 1868 Old 03-30-2013, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by wattheF View Post

All I know is everytime I have compared the XBR side by side with a good plasma it just doesn't hold up. No matter what it just looks more washed out. And take a step to either side and it all goes to hell!

Not to mention the exorbinant price. I guess if not having to worry about IR is worth spending that much more to ya then go for it. In the meantime I will get as good if not better PQ out of my mid to high range plasma for half (or less) the price.

I agree 100%
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post #1725 of 1868 Old 03-30-2013, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Dave, I can tell you we put on The Dark Knight and that has quite a number of dark scenes. They were, from my point of view, very impressive to say the least...even under the tent! wink.gif

Badumdum tishhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh biggrin.gif
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post #1726 of 1868 Old 03-30-2013, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by wildstarUD View Post

Hey guys, just saw the F8500 in my local Magnolia... it was pretty amazing. I was going to go check out the F8000, but they don't have it in anything over a 55" and it's only on the regular sales floor. I was pretty impressed.... the picture and colors were great, blacks were deep, tv was plenty bright, and much brighter than the vt50 it was by. I was also really impressed by the remote and their whole smart apps/guide system. It worked really fluidly and the remote was surprisingly responsive. It also felt really nice in your hand, kind of like an expensive smartphone. I did notice that off angle viewing, more specifically vertical off-axis viewing was a little disappointing... I am not familiar with plasmas at all, but I am considering this tv for above our fireplace (the only place we can put a tv in our back room). It could have just been me, I just wanted to mention it. As I said, very impressed, even the stand looked really nice how it bulges out from the tv in the middle but then flows back to the frame of the tv at the edges. I'm going to head back next week to watch a bluray on it, and then again when they get the 65" F8000 (they told me they would put it right above it). I'm deathly afraid of plasmas due to burn-in (I know its harder nowadays to get burn in, but I play a lot of ps3 and a wife that doesn't understand burn-in) but my mind might have been changed from what I saw tonight. I'm no expert, but feel free to ask me any questions you want to.

Oh and I know someone in the past has asked about the internet brower. It was quick and very easy to use. Having the touch control on the remote makes using the browser very easy.

Yes, the 55" & 60" F8000 will be on the Best Buy floor this year, with the 46" & 65" being in Magnolia. The 65" won't be out for a couple months though.

Though I am an employee of Magnolia Home Theater, the views and opinions I express on this forum are those of my own and not my employer.
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post #1727 of 1868 Old 03-30-2013, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Thanks cooldude. I too can't begin to fathom some of the lack of objectivity here. I have absolutely zero bias for plasma, LED, Samsung, Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba etc. Whatever tech and whatever manufacturer is producing the best picture to my eyes, is the one that gets my money.

Each tech, each display has strengths & weaknesses. Everyone needs to see these displays before choosing. Taking my word or anyone's word for what's 'best' is not well advised. My feelings are simply one data point among many. But the out-of-hand, obvious biases of some are just really silly IMO.

Some people even retort to childish name calling like saying "Samcrap" or "Samdung", really!? It amazes me how childish some people on here are.
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post #1728 of 1868 Old 03-30-2013, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Can I suggest you haven't seen a calibrated 950? Color calibrates extremely well and should hold up to any plasma. Rec709 is Rec709. But I do agree about viewing angle, not good.
Yes, no question, they're pricey. That's why full array panels are just about gone. Of course I disagree about your characterization of PQ. Each to his own.

I have not seen a calibrated 950, nor have i seen a calibrated plasma believe it or not!

Yes, accurate color is accurate color, but that does not account for all aspects of color. Color saturation just looks better on plasma to me.

Even though I have the sweet spot on the couch I could not live with a TV that looks totally different just one couch cushion down!
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post #1729 of 1868 Old 03-30-2013, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Full field. I was not at the store to do in depth measurements.... nor was I there to validate Kevin's work. All I know is the 64F8500 measured 0.0017fL (it dipped to 0.0016fL for a few secs) which is also what Kevin measured, per Robert. I was very impressed with the brightness of this display. It will easily trump any 2013 Panasonic in that department.... and yes that includes the ZT60.

Thanks for the clarification. I hope you can calibrate a F8500, so we will have an excellent review of their performance.

If you can read my post (link), I believe it will be of some value to assist in the evaluation.

I found a Samsung patent that i think describes the Black Optimizer. It appears to have a dynamic effect on the contrast of the TV, black and/or brightness vary depending on the scene APL, then the traditional ANSI 4x4 test (APL 50%) would not be definitive for evaluating the black level as is the Panasonic (constant black level in the full field and ANSI). Probably because the black should improve in lower APL with more representative values ​​with what we watch (movies, etc).
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post #1730 of 1868 Old 03-30-2013, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by dvrw2 View Post

Thanks for the clarification. I hope you can calibrate a F8500, so we will have an excellent review of their performance.

If you can read my post (link), I believe it will be of some value to assist in the evaluation.

I found a Samsung patent that i think describes the Black Optimizer. It appears to have a dynamic effect on the contrast of the TV, black and/or brightness vary depending on the scene APL, then the traditional ANSI 4x4 test (APL 50%) would not be definitive for evaluating the black level as is the Panasonic (constant black level in the full field and ANSI). Probably because the black should improve in lower APL with more representative values ​​with what we watch (movies, etc).

Sounds good if it works perfectly. Hope I am wrong but it sounds like it spells trouble to me with certain content.
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post #1731 of 1868 Old 03-30-2013, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

We're moving in about 3 weeks and I'll need a new display for our den shortly thereafter. No telling now when the ZT60 will be out.

So here's my thinking and both Robert and I were in 100% agreement. Looking at the 8500 in the back of his store in an already dim area, we threw the blanket over the 8500 to further darken it. It was quite dark under the blanket. The blacks were truly dark as in we could see no light. Yes, perhaps if we had absolutely zero light coming in, zero, we probably would have seen a bit of brightness to the blacks. But in those conditions, which I would say approximated many dark viewing environments, the MLL of .0016 looked spectacular.

Am I going to jump up and down if we get down to .001 or .0008? I doubt it. At least not me. Hell, I can get that and better already in a Sony 950. No plasma can get that black.

So Robert and I agreed that yes, the ZT60 will probably have a lower MLL, but is that really going to be such a huge deal with what we saw today? For me the answer is no, for you it may be yes. To be perfectly honest, unlike some other guys here, I'd probably appreciate the much better top end than a bit lower on the low end. I definitely liked the less aggressive ABL on the 8500. There's a reason it didn't get an energy star rating. wink.gif

YMMV.

Remember people love to chase those low mll numbers. The lower the better but it's not that much of a difference as you said when viewing the two sets 85000 and the vt50. You did like the 8500 more, dnice seemed to as well. There were suble differences in dark scenes but there was a difference whether most would notice beside a a and b comparison this it's a toss up. I like the fact that they made such improvements to this panel for 2013 pluses in all areas but people are looking for the Kuro killer, we all know this so until this is laid to rest the fanboys will continue with the kuro is still best comments.
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post #1732 of 1868 Old 03-30-2013, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by pred1973 View Post

I was just thinking that after reading your review. The VT50 was no slouch, and if the F8500 surpasses that, and the ST60 is looking to be close to the VT50, hopefully the VT60 and ZT60 can keep the trend going for this year. Really would be hard to make a bad choice in the plasma market. I think the thing that I find most encouraging is the idea that Samsung did a new panel with new attributes (versus an incremental improvement over the previous year) and seemed to have nailed it. I usually have a certain level of skepticism of companies getting it right the first time out with new products. Hopefully Panasonic can do the same with the ZT. Its always great for the consumer to have multiple choices, and this really does seem to be a special year for plasma displays.

+1
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post #1733 of 1868 Old 03-30-2013, 11:04 AM
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Hopefully Samsung stays in the plasma market for long time. Oled is not looking good and when they do hit they will have their own problems along with a huge price.
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post #1734 of 1868 Old 03-30-2013, 11:18 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Slickman View Post

Some people even retort to childish name calling like saying "Samcrap" or "Samdung", really!? It amazes me how childish some people on here are.
CEMs live and die by their reputations, and that includes cutting corners in firmware development (or a lack thereof), poor customer support, and using build/parts of questionable quality. I am sorry that I don't sit and worship at the same altar as your good self. I will use Samdung whenever and wherever I like.
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post #1735 of 1868 Old 03-30-2013, 11:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by hungro View Post

Remember people love to chase those low mll numbers. The lower the better but it's not that much of a difference as you said when viewing the two sets 85000 and the vt50. You did like the 8500 more, dnice seemed to as well. There were suble differences in dark scenes but there was a difference whether most would notice beside a a and b comparison this it's a toss up. I like the fact that they made such improvements to this panel for 2013 pluses in all areas but people are looking for the Kuro killer, we all know this so until this is laid to rest the fanboys will continue with the kuro is still best comments.
Yes, damn those idiot fanboys for wanting a display that at least matches their current display in the one area where the Kuro has excelled the most, damn them to hell. rolleyes.gif
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post #1736 of 1868 Old 03-30-2013, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

CEMs live and die by their reputations, and that includes cutting corners in firmware development (or a lack thereof), poor customer support, and using build/parts of questionable quality. I am sorry that I don't sit and worship at the same altar as your good self. I will use Samdung whenever and wherever I like.

I don't worship any company, I'm here to talk about and discover the best displays out there, whether it be a Samsung, Panasonic, Sansui, or whoever.
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post #1737 of 1868 Old 03-30-2013, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

CEMs live and die by their reputations, and that includes cutting corners in firmware development (or a lack thereof), poor customer support, and using build/parts of questionable quality. I am sorry that I don't sit and worship at the same altar as your good self. I will use Samdung whenever and wherever I like.

This coming from a Pioho or is it Panaho? biggrin.giftongue.gifwink.gif personal experience has a lot to do with any reputation...If youve been burned in the past, its hard for any CE to overcome that experience.....I havent been trully "burnt" yet, so I consider myself "objective" in the matter....the names downt bother me much anymore as most of it is tounge in cheek anyways and easily dismissed.....
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Yes, damn those idiot fanboys for wanting a display that at least matches their current display in the one area where the Kuro has excelled the most, damn them to hell. rolleyes.gif

I wouldnt go that far, heck I would even agree with you that you SHOULD be looking for something that exceeds what you currently have especially in tose aspects that you (the person watching the set) holds most important.......That day may never come in the Plasma market, but only time will tell.
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post #1738 of 1868 Old 03-30-2013, 11:35 AM
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It seems like Samsung has pissed a lot of people off when they used the cheap power supplys back in the day. atleast people that I talked to. But..Perhaps they learned from their mistakes.
The F8500 looks like a treat for plasma fans
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post #1739 of 1868 Old 03-30-2013, 11:36 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Slickman View Post

I don't worship any company, I'm here to talk about and discover the best displays out there, whether it be a Samsung, Panasonic, Sansui, or whoever.
Great, and there really isn't anyone left besides the main 2 players (LG is not much of a contender, and they've nearly admitted as much). This leads to increasing scrutiny between the two. Panasonic certainly screwed the pooch in 2010/11 with their rising black level fiasco and is a pox on them (at least they've quietly fixed it on subsequent models). In any case, what I don't understand is the need to defend the "good" name of a faceless CEM (that is seeking your hard-earned dollars more than anything), just because some anonymous poster refers to them in a less than flattering light. Folks have their reasons, whether it be based on personal experience related to any of the aforementioned points (customer support, build quality, lack of good firmware), or have qualms with some of their questionable business/apparent IP infringing history.
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post #1740 of 1868 Old 03-30-2013, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by yamvmax View Post

WOW! DNice giving the sammy some love...thats not common!wink.gif
I've never been a Samsung basher. I give respect where it is due.... regardless of brand.
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