Official Panasonic TC-PxxST60 Series thread - Page 103 - AVS Forum
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post #3061 of 13083 Old 04-29-2013, 07:44 AM
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That's odd, because the effects look identical to me in either 2D or 3D, with the only difference being one has cross talk one doesn't. I don't find the cross talk THAT bad, but then this is my first time really testing out 3D at home. I didn't get a chance on the UT50 frown.gif
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post #3062 of 13083 Old 04-29-2013, 08:01 AM
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Man this motion smoothing for 3D stuff has my head spinning! It is strange that the SOE is not overwhelming with 3D and motion smoother on MID/STRONG.
It could have something to do with how 3D works. With active 3D basically the glasses alternate left and right eyes turning off and on quickly (so fast the human eye doesn't percieve it). Maybe this affects refresh rates in a sense that it "changes" the motion. Kind of reminds me of how on my GT50 48hz. Had zero flicker in 3D (and looked great) but had awefull flicker in 2D...
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post #3063 of 13083 Old 04-29-2013, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

That's odd, because the effects look identical to me in either 2D or 3D, with the only difference being one has cross talk one doesn't. I don't find the cross talk THAT bad, but then this is my first time really testing out 3D at home. I didn't get a chance on the UT50 frown.gif

Ok so you are saying that you DO see SOE with the motion smoother on in 3D???
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post #3064 of 13083 Old 04-29-2013, 08:03 AM
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I don't know, maybe it's because the added depth and the smooth motion just lays on an extra layer of realism?
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post #3065 of 13083 Old 04-29-2013, 08:05 AM
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Sorry to beat this dead horse but I just want to figure out what the deal is with this 3D issue befor I decide to buy. And there is no way to test 3D in store so I am rellying on all of you. ;-)
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post #3066 of 13083 Old 04-29-2013, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by wattheF View Post

Ok so you are saying that you DO see SOE with the motion smoother on in 3D???

To my eyes, the effect is the same in both 2D and 3D. Stuff is very smooth. I like it, but I can see how purist find it objectionable. I'm personally tired of the 24 fps format and seeing a "what if" scenario with some of my favorite movies is nice IMO.
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Sorry to beat this dead horse but I just want to figure out what the deal is with this 3D issue befor I decide to buy. And there is no way to test 3D in store so I am rellying on all of you. ;-)

If you mean the cross talk issue, then no Motion Smoothing doesn't really get rid of it. All motion smoothing does is increase the frame rate of the content by creating a new frame by blending 2 frames together, to double the frame rate. I've noticed cross talk on some things even with the setting to Strong.
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post #3067 of 13083 Old 04-29-2013, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by wattheF View Post

Man this motion smoothing for 3D stuff has my head spinning! It is strange that the SOE is not overwhelming with 3D and motion smoother on MID/STRONG.
It could have something to do with how 3D works. With active 3D basically the glasses alternate left and right eyes turning off and on quickly (so fast the human eye doesn't percieve it). Maybe this affects refresh rates in a sense that it "changes" the motion. Kind of reminds me of how on my GT50 48hz. Had zero flicker in 3D (and looked great) but had awefull flicker in 2D...
Yeah, it is strange but it works. I am finding the mid setting to be enough to remove all crosstalk and blurring in 3d. Once the cross talk is removed, the 3d on this TV is stunning. I think the depth is better then any other 3d TV I have tried as well as keeping a good distance from the TV for popout.
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post #3068 of 13083 Old 04-29-2013, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

To my eyes, the effect is the same in both 2D and 3D. Stuff is very smooth. I like it, but I can see how purist find it objectionable. I'm personally tired of the 24 fps format and seeing a "what if" scenario with some of my favorite movies is nice IMO.
If you mean the cross talk issue, then no Motion Smoothing doesn't really get rid of it. All motion smoothing does is increase the frame rate of the content by creating a new frame by blending 2 frames together, to double the frame rate. I've noticed cross talk on some things even with the setting to Strong.
Of course motion smoother gets rid of the cross talk. If you turn it to of the 3d is unwatchable. You eyes won't be able to take more then 5 minutes of it before you want to poke them out.
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post #3069 of 13083 Old 04-29-2013, 08:19 AM
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Can anyone say definitively that these Samsung 3D glasses will work or will not work with the ST60? Thanks.

http://www.sears.com/samsung-3d-active-glasses/p-05775189000P
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post #3070 of 13083 Old 04-29-2013, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

To my eyes, the effect is the same in both 2D and 3D. Stuff is very smooth. I like it, but I can see how purist find it objectionable. I'm personally tired of the 24 fps format and seeing a "what if" scenario with some of my favorite movies is nice IMO.
If you mean the cross talk issue, then no Motion Smoothing doesn't really get rid of it. All motion smoothing does is increase the frame rate of the content by creating a new frame by blending 2 frames together, to double the frame rate. I've noticed cross talk on some things even with the setting to Strong.

Thanks, yes I am well aware of how motion interpolation works and the issue for me is that I will not tolerate SOE with film (3D or not). So if using motion smoothing to help reduce the appearance of cross talk is needed to make 3D watchable then 3D is a no go on this TV for me. The only reason I keep coming back to it is because there are conflicting reports on whether or not using motion smoothing with 3D actually does cause SOE.

With what you have reported above about the effect being the same with 2D or 3D I am now sure that it will bother me.

So now I just need to decide how important 3D is to me and if it is worth. spending the premium on the VT60 to get better 3D (and I am assuming at this point)

Just frustrating that Panasonic had to go and mess with a good thing that they already had going!

Thanks for your help
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post #3071 of 13083 Old 04-29-2013, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by eric3316 View Post

Of course motion smoother gets rid of the cross talk. If you turn it to of the 3d is unwatchable. You eyes won't be able to take more then 5 minutes of it before you want to poke them out.

confused.gif Cross talk is when there are ghost images of 3D objects. Motion Smoothing doesn't get rid of it anymore than having it off, it's just having it off makes the picture judder A LOT. I've seen plenty of objects, usually foreground, have a ghostly image even with motion smoothing set to strong. Maybe you just aren't as sensitive to it?
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Originally Posted by cotoor View Post

Can anyone say definitively that these Samsung 3D glasses will work or will not work with the ST60? Thanks.

http://www.sears.com/samsung-3d-active-glasses/p-05775189000P

Yes, I have a pair and it syncs up fine.
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post #3072 of 13083 Old 04-29-2013, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by wattheF View Post

Just frustrating that Panasonic had to go and mess with a good thing that they already had going!

Thanks for your help

No problem. I guarantee you the cross talk is still there, even if Motion Smoothing minimizes it (not in my opinion though) so if that is a deal breaker for you, you're going to have to pass. 3D still looks decent though.

I'm guessing the reason the 3D isn't as good as last years is because this year they used Mediatek to supply the image processor for all things, including 3D. It seems this one detail is the cause of all the ST60's problems, such as high input lag (slow processor) and bad 3D (poor 3D rendering/processing) which is a real shame they couldn't have just used their in house Hexaprocessor and call it a day.

Why oh why did they NOT release the GT60 in NA this year...
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post #3073 of 13083 Old 04-29-2013, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

confused.gif Cross talk is when there are ghost images of 3D objects. Motion Smoothing doesn't get rid of it anymore than having it off, it's just having it off makes the picture judder A LOT. I've seen plenty of objects, usually foreground, have a ghostly image even with motion smoothing set to strong. Maybe you just aren't as sensitive to it?
Yes, I have a pair and it syncs up fine.
Whether we call it cross talk, judder or blurring the point being with motion smoother off 3d blu ray is unwatchable. Anything moving will make your eyes hurt. While you might see some cross talk with motion smoothing on it will be minimal and the picture is 100% watchable.
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post #3074 of 13083 Old 04-29-2013, 09:03 AM
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I've read this entire thread and the following are being shipped to my apartment on Wednesday:


I have a couple questions:

  1. Is there anything else I need to buy to wall mount the TV?
  2. I've never wall mounted a TV before and would like to hire someone. Where's a good place to find an installer?


Hi,

I see that you bought some additional screw from Amazon, I guess the mount doesn't come with screws?
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post #3075 of 13083 Old 04-29-2013, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by wattheF View Post

Sorry to beat this dead horse but I just want to figure out what the deal is with this 3D issue befor I decide to buy. And there is no way to test 3D in store so I am rellying on all of you. ;-)
My reccomendation would be to buy the TV from somewhere you can return it. My main reason for buying a new TV was because I wanted 3d. Now that I have 3d, I rarely watch it. The Direct TV 3d channel plays the same terrible content over and over and over every day. There are not many good 3d movies that you will be able to watch over and over again. Maybe a handful but how many times are you going to watch them.

If 3d was unusable I was going to get another TV. I wasn't going to keep something I could not use which was the main reason for buying it, even though after owning it the usage that feature gets is minimal. I am happy I was able to get the 3d to a point that is enjoyable and totally watchable. Avatar does look amazing on this TV in 3d!

You other options are either go with an LED TV and deal with 100 other issues but have good 3d or spend $1,000 for a TV with better 3d and a little better pq. That is a pretty steep price to pay if 3d is your only concern. I say try it.

I would like to hear what others have to say about their experience though with 3d. Come on people, post up. The TV came with glasses so no excuses! lol
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Can anyone say definitively that these Samsung 3D glasses will work or will not work with the ST60? Thanks.

http://www.sears.com/samsung-3d-active-glasses/p-05775189000P
Aren't those an old version of Samsungs's glasses? Why not got the 2013 model 5100GB. They are sold at Amazon and Best Buy for around $19.99.
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post #3076 of 13083 Old 04-29-2013, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

No problem. I guarantee you the cross talk is still there, even if Motion Smoothing minimizes it (not in my opinion though) so if that is a deal breaker for you, you're going to have to pass. 3D still looks decent though.

I'm guessing the reason the 3D isn't as good as last years is because this year they used Mediatek to supply the image processor for all things, including 3D. It seems this one detail is the cause of all the ST60's problems, such as high input lag (slow processor) and bad 3D (poor 3D rendering/processing) which is a real shame they couldn't have just used their in house Hexaprocessor and call it a day.

Why oh why did they NOT release the GT60 in NA this year...

Yeah, I might go with it anyways based on its value and the fact that I only watch 3D on occasion.

The fact that they used the Mediatek processor is something that I had forgotten about and yes that could def have an impact on the 3D. Onthe otherhand it is the reason the video processing for 2D is sharper and cleaner. So all in all I would take the better 2D and worse 3D as atrade off.

If they used their hexacore processor there would be no reason to buy the VT or ZT! ;-)
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post #3077 of 13083 Old 04-29-2013, 09:39 AM
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Aren't those an old version of Samsungs's glasses? Why not got the 2013 model 5100GB. They are sold at Amazon and Best Buy for around $19.99.[/quote]

I have a $50 gift card to Sears. Will this older model still work w/the ST60?
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post #3078 of 13083 Old 04-29-2013, 09:41 AM
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The 2012 Full 3D RF Samsung glasses will work fine.
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post #3079 of 13083 Old 04-29-2013, 10:11 AM
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Thanks for the detailed answer! I appreciate the feedback. As usual, sounds like Amazon's costumer service is first rate. I live in a mayor city, so hopefully the delivery itself should be a little smoother. Thanks again, and good luck with your new S64!

YW. Best of luck to you, too. I think the ST60's and Amazon are first rate. S64 maybe gets here tomorrow. Champing at the bit, a bit anxious about pq, etc.

Watching vid on my old pc monitor at present sucks after the stunning PQ of my former 55ST60!
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post #3080 of 13083 Old 04-29-2013, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by wiggindude View Post

Hi,

I see that you bought some additional screw from Amazon, I guess the mount doesn't come with screws?

The Monoprice 8588 comes with 2 size M8, 16mm and 40mm. 60ST60 takes 17mm to 23mm M8.
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post #3081 of 13083 Old 04-29-2013, 10:28 AM
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The Monoprice 8588 comes with 2 size M8, 16mm and 40mm. 60ST60 takes 17mm to 23mm M8.

Ahh...thanks.
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post #3082 of 13083 Old 04-29-2013, 11:01 AM
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The Monoprice 8588 comes with 2 size M8, 16mm and 40mm. 60ST60 takes 17mm to 23mm M8.
Yep, I guess he has extra screws for next time...........
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post #3083 of 13083 Old 04-29-2013, 11:16 AM
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. Just try to haggle a little. You'll be surprised.

=p not to sure about that wink.gif cost on this set is in the high 1200's. So tempted to pick this set up for my room but I wanted to use it for a PC monitor but having a hard time justifying replacing my 1440p 27" , but this would be so nice to watch movies on mad.gif
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post #3084 of 13083 Old 04-29-2013, 11:19 AM
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It's not so good as a pc display. What i noticed is that if you have something with a white background full screen the white is not so bright, it gains a tint of ... grey. When you have regular content - specially with dark background, image is great and white is as bright as it should be ...
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post #3085 of 13083 Old 04-29-2013, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by cruisx View Post

=p not to sure about that wink.gif cost on this set is in the high 1200's. So tempted to pick this set up for my room but I wanted to use it for a PC monitor but having a hard time justifying replacing my 1440p 27" , but this would be so nice to watch movies on mad.gif
Don't think plasma's are the way to go for pc monitors.
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post #3086 of 13083 Old 04-29-2013, 11:30 AM
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Lets take the pricing to the pricing threads. Not in here please.

Quick Reference of Forum Rules
1) Do Not post pricing you found on-line or at a local dealer UNLESS IN A DEALS THREAD.
2) Do Not ask for, or offer, a receipt so people can price match.
3) Do Not say to "Call John Smith at ..." (you know what I mean)
4) Do Not put down someone else's choice in...

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post #3087 of 13083 Old 04-29-2013, 11:41 AM
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I just posted this in the settings/issues thread, but hoping some people in here might have some insight/suggestions as well..

Has anyone noticed pretty poor picture quality while watching HD digital cable TV? I have Comcast, with a 3D digital box (hooked up via HDMI). The HD picture quality is actually pretty bad on my new 60" ST60, using any picture settings (D-nice, CNET, and presets). Never had an issue with my old TV (50" Samsung C8000 plasma). The PQ of the 1080i channels like HBO, Showtime, etc, looked exceptional on the C8000 (almost blu-ray quality, IMO). I watched Game of Thrones last night on the ST60 and was really disappointed. The blacks seemed to get really dirty looking and kind of "pixelated" looking (almost like the picture processing was not doing it's job). Picture also did not "pop" very much, as well as was not as sharp as I thought it was going to be....

Blu-ray, on the other hand looks AMAZING on this TV. Very sharp picture, great "pop" and contrast, and great motion/processing. I understand that this is a different input/source, etc.... but should my cable feed on HD channels look THAT much worse? Is there anything I'm missing? Do Samsung TV's just have better picture quality with cable TV as the source?
Any input would be greatly appreciated. I am REALLY happy with the ST60, and this is my only head-scratcher so far.
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post #3088 of 13083 Old 04-29-2013, 11:47 AM
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Doesn't each input need calibrated? If you've already set it up, then maybe try using the macroblocking (pixelated dark content easy to see this) noise removal (MPEG NR) option in the menu.

I would also consider what resolution the cablebox is sending to your set. If it has to do any sort of scaling it could be getting a weird sharpening contour added to everything, though you say it doesn't look sharp enough?
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post #3089 of 13083 Old 04-29-2013, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by AdamHD View Post

I just posted this in the settings/issues thread, but hoping some people in here might have some insight/suggestions as well..

Has anyone noticed pretty poor picture quality while watching HD digital cable TV? I have Comcast, with a 3D digital box (hooked up via HDMI). The HD picture quality is actually pretty bad on my new 60" ST60, using any picture settings (D-nice, CNET, and presets). Never had an issue with my old TV (50" Samsung C8000 plasma). The PQ of the 1080i channels like HBO, Showtime, etc, looked exceptional on the C8000 (almost blu-ray quality, IMO). I watched Game of Thrones last night on the ST60 and was really disappointed. The blacks seemed to get really dirty looking and kind of "pixelated" looking (almost like the picture processing was not doing it's job). Picture also did not "pop" very much, as well as was not as sharp as I thought it was going to be....

Blu-ray, on the other hand looks AMAZING on this TV. Very sharp picture, great "pop" and contrast, and great motion/processing. I understand that this is a different input/source, etc.... but should my cable feed on HD channels look THAT much worse? Is there anything I'm missing? Do Samsung TV's just have better picture quality with cable TV as the source?
Any input would be greatly appreciated. I am REALLY happy with the ST60, and this is my only head-scratcher so far.
No issues here using Direct TV. I would say the quality as far as sharpness goes looks as good as my Samsung e7000 plasma did as for what I can remember.

I do have the cable box scaling everything to 1080i so maybe something in your box can help your issue?
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post #3090 of 13083 Old 04-29-2013, 11:50 AM
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The Monoprice 8588 comes with 2 size M8, 16mm and 40mm. 60ST60 takes 17mm to 23mm M8.

I just went through this... my Sanus comes with 20mm spacers so you can use the 40mm, in fact I read on another forum the screws are a little indented and you need to use spacers. Also do not forget the mount and washer are about 2-3mm so that 20mm you bought might not cut it... 25mm would probaly be best and you can use an extra washer if it is too long. You need roughly 4 good turns to make sure it is secure.
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