Official Panasonic TC-PxxST60 Series thread - Page 31 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #901 of 12909 Old 04-03-2013, 08:40 PM
Advanced Member
 
Turrican4D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 686
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 54 Post(s)
Liked: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Which would put the ZT60 in the same .0016-.0017 ballpark of the F8500, just slightly better. Using Chad's own description of 'imperceptibly lower' to describe a similar MLL disparity between the ST60 and VT50, then we wouldn't be far off-base in predicting that if your .001 holds up, it too will be imperceptibly lower to the eyes compared to the F8500.

This kind of gets to what I said in another thread about 'diminishing returns'. These panels are getting so good, their performance in some key areas is getting more and more tightly clustered.
I wouldn't describe a MLL difference between 0.009 cd/m2 and 0.005 cd/m2 as imperceptibly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Care to explain how and in which fighting games?
Take Soul Calibur or Fight Night. Or racing games like Forza or even Hot Pursuit, Arcade shooters like Geometry Wars... you can't adapt to input lag.
Turrican4D is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #902 of 12909 Old 04-03-2013, 08:43 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Cleveland Plasma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Posts: 12,140
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 380 Post(s)
Liked: 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperatore View Post

I have heard and read around May. Maybe sooner.
I hope you are right, as of this moment the ST60 in the 55" 60" and 65" are late..........

Forum Sponsor // \\
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

1-866-651-0049 // \\
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
/
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
/
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
/
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
/
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Cleveland Plasma is online now  
post #903 of 12909 Old 04-03-2013, 08:53 PM
Member
 
davelanger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 168
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
It really sucks about the lag on the st60, I was looking at getting this TV, but I play too many games and it would really be a disadv. at shooters
davelanger is offline  
post #904 of 12909 Old 04-03-2013, 08:55 PM
Senior Member
 
AdamHD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Seattle, Wa
Posts: 278
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

I hope you are right, as of this moment the ST60 in the 55" 60" and 65" are late..........
I'm sure you have more knowledge on the matter than I do, but I HAVE seen a 55" in the wild (at my local Video Only store). Hopefully you'll be receiving the 55" soon, and the 60" and 65" shortly thereafter. I'm really anxious to see the larger sizes become available soon!
AdamHD is offline  
post #905 of 12909 Old 04-03-2013, 09:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JSpectre88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,000
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Care to explain how and in which fighting games? If you're talking SF4, then I don't know how it can be a serious disadvantage. You can simply adjust by doing your inputs earlier than what you're seeing, be a bit more adaptive. Adapting is part of the game, anyway. If you can't adapt, then you shouldn't be playing fighters since you're working off auto-pilot at that point. Also, practice will always teach you what people dub muscle memory, so as long as you remember that you need to do your inputs a little early, the rest like combo timing should easily take over. Reversals in that game are like 5 frames, and if your reversal game is tight then you have nothing to worry about since you have 5 entire frames to get that reversal out. Network lag is much more of a significant factor if you're mostly an online warrior.

Even in a game like ST, with a 1 frame reversal window, if you simply do the input just a little bit earlier and piano your inputs, you're still going to be fine. Again, if you're playing these games online and that is your only experience, then the network lag is hurting you far more than the display lag.

Spot on, but less lag is beneficial to your reaction times. Still, we're talking about 3-4 frames at 60 fps. Only the most critical gamers should be completely adverse to the ST60's slightly high input lag. Like you said, network lag is a much bigger factor, but that's not something you have any control over to begin with. Wouldn't throw teching be slightly more difficult with higher input lag though?
JSpectre88 is offline  
post #906 of 12909 Old 04-03-2013, 09:14 PM
Senior Member
 
biggweeziehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Buchanan Michigan
Posts: 353
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

I hope you are right, as of this moment the ST60 in the 55" 60" and 65" are late..........

Called sears today they said they could have a 55" st60 on my door step Friday April 5th
biggweeziehd is offline  
post #907 of 12909 Old 04-03-2013, 09:15 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JSpectre88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,000
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by davelanger View Post

It really sucks about the lag on the st60, I was looking at getting this TV, but I play too many games and it would really be a disadv. at shooters

If you're used to playing with a mouse and a 1 frame PC monitor, then I would say yes. However, if you're more used to playing with a controller and haven't exclusively used a low input lag display it's probably not that serious. In any case you can always adapt though, when you're talking about lag that's less than a tenth of a second you don't feel a lot of delay, it's just not 100% fluid. What are you currently playing on?
JSpectre88 is offline  
post #908 of 12909 Old 04-03-2013, 09:15 PM
Senior Member
 
biggweeziehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Buchanan Michigan
Posts: 353
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by biggweeziehd View Post

Called sears today they said they could have a 55" st60 on my door step Friday April 5th

Also showing "in stock" on amazon for a 55" wish BB had them
biggweeziehd is offline  
post #909 of 12909 Old 04-03-2013, 09:21 PM
Senior Member
 
Omni009's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 411
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 36
55" are out there in a few places...I'm not sure what the release orders usually look like, but this year seems odd to me. 50" ST60's, 65"S60's...not much rhyme or reason to it.

I've seen April 20th as an approx date for the 60"

Omni009 is offline  
post #910 of 12909 Old 04-03-2013, 09:31 PM
Senior Member
 
biggweeziehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Buchanan Michigan
Posts: 353
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omni009 View Post

55" are out there in a few places...I'm not sure what the release orders usually look like, but this year seems odd to me. 50" ST60's, 65"S60's...not much rhyme or reason to it.

I've seen April 20th as an approx date for the 60"

Yeah man depending on the price ill go 55 or 60 but man I'm sick of waiting
biggweeziehd is offline  
post #911 of 12909 Old 04-03-2013, 09:37 PM
 
somelogin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,072
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
I wish I knew if the 60 series has less noticeable flicker to those who usually notice it. I assume none of you would know, though, since you likely wouldn't have even been trying it if sensitive to flicker.

All I know is the ST50 absolutely CRUSHED my head with flicker. Yet my recently purchased kuro 111 does not bother me much. Only problem is the kuro seems to have black level sisues, which defeats the main purpose of even buying one! All along I planned on getting an ST60, but I just highly doubt it would magically have less flicker than the ST50. Would be interesting to know though, at such a great price! Hopefully I will be able to convince some repair person that the kurp has an issue and get them to fix whatever is up. Otherwise, I am screwed. tongue.gif

I don't really care how good the VT60 or ZT60 will be. If they say "even better than the kuros" I won't care because I wanted 50 inches or less so those two series are irrelevant to me.
ez1dog likes this.
somelogin is offline  
post #912 of 12909 Old 04-03-2013, 09:45 PM
Senior Member
 
biggweeziehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Buchanan Michigan
Posts: 353
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by somelogin View Post

I wish I knew if the 60 series has less noticeable flicker to those who usually notice it. I assume none of you would know, though, since you likely wouldn't have even been trying it if sensitive to flicker.

All I know is the ST50 absolutely CRUSHED my head with flicker. Yet my recently purchased kuro 111 does not bother me much. Only problem is the kuro seems to have black level sisues, which defeats the main purpose of even buying one! All along I planned on getting an ST60, but I just highly doubt it would magically have less flicker than the ST50. Would be interesting to know though, at such a great price! Hopefully I will be able to convince some repair person that the kurp has an issue and get them to fix whatever is up. Otherwise, I am screwed. tongue.gif

I don't really care how good the VT60 or ZT60 will be. If they say "even better than the kuros" I won't care because I wanted 50 inches or less so those two series are irrelevant to me.

More good news (you guys are gonna think i work for panny)... LESS FLICKER!!! I watched Scott Pilgrim tonight and as the credits rolled I noticed slight flicker... It was on 60hz mode (also I did not detect it at all during the film) as soon as I noticed flicker I though "ill test the 96hz mode"... Totally eliminated flicker, I even rewound a couple of scenes to check really smooth. Watching dark knight rises right now on bluray with player set at 24p and display at 96hz and it's glass smooth!
biggweeziehd is offline  
post #913 of 12909 Old 04-03-2013, 10:11 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Cleveland Plasma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Posts: 12,140
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 380 Post(s)
Liked: 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by biggweeziehd View Post

Called sears today they said they could have a 55" st60 on my door step Friday April 5th
oops.......meant 60" and 65"

Forum Sponsor // \\
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

1-866-651-0049 // \\
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
/
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
/
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
/
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
/
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Cleveland Plasma is online now  
post #914 of 12909 Old 04-03-2013, 10:12 PM
Advanced Member
 
Moonchilde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 557
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turrican4D View Post

Take Soul Calibur or Fight Night. Or racing games like Forza or even Hot Pursuit, Arcade shooters like Geometry Wars... you can't adapt to input lag.

None of those games require frame perfect reversals like SSF2T which is still very much playable btw. If you can't adapt to minor input lag, then you shouldn't be playing, since you won't be able to adapt to your opponent changing their attack timings. I've played SF, SF4, SFxT, a few other games that run at 60 fps, and I've played WipeOut HD (PS3) which is a 60 fps hover racer. I've tried a few arcade shooters as well, and guess what? They're playable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSpectre88 View Post

Spot on, but less lag is beneficial to your reaction times. Still, we're talking about 3-4 frames at 60 fps. Only the most critical gamers should be completely adverse to the ST60's slightly high input lag. Like you said, network lag is a much bigger factor, but that's not something you have any control over to begin with. Wouldn't throw teching be slightly more difficult with higher input lag though?

No doubt, less lag is always beneficial. But my thoughts are, the ST60 is perfectly playable, and this is coming from years of CRT gaming. Throw teching would possibly be a problem on a game like ST, which has 0 frame throws, but, you know the set ups, and you know when they're coming, and you adjust. Unlike games like SF4 (3 frame throws) and SFxT (5 frame throws) it won't be such an issue. If you're playing local, then your opponent is playing under the same conditions, if you're playing online, then it doesn't even matter because network lag is going to be a much larger problem. If you're going to be playing at a major like EVO, then just keep practicing on whatever you want to play on, but a week or so before find a lagless setup and practice to refresh your brain. It shouldn't take that long to adapt.
Moonchilde is offline  
post #915 of 12909 Old 04-03-2013, 10:13 PM
Advanced Member
 
Moonchilde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 557
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by somelogin View Post

I wish I knew if the 60 series has less noticeable flicker to those who usually notice it. I assume none of you would know, though, since you likely wouldn't have even been trying it if sensitive to flicker.

All I know is the ST50 absolutely CRUSHED my head with flicker. Yet my recently purchased kuro 111 does not bother me much. Only problem is the kuro seems to have black level sisues, which defeats the main purpose of even buying one! All along I planned on getting an ST60, but I just highly doubt it would magically have less flicker than the ST50. Would be interesting to know though, at such a great price! Hopefully I will be able to convince some repair person that the kurp has an issue and get them to fix whatever is up. Otherwise, I am screwed. tongue.gif

I don't really care how good the VT60 or ZT60 will be. If they say "even better than the kuros" I won't care because I wanted 50 inches or less so those two series are irrelevant to me.

What kind of content and where was the flicker?
Moonchilde is offline  
post #916 of 12909 Old 04-03-2013, 10:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JSpectre88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,000
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

No doubt, less lag is always beneficial. But my thoughts are, the ST60 is perfectly playable, and this is coming from years of CRT gaming. Throw teching would possibly be a problem on a game like ST, which has 0 frame throws, but, you know the set ups, and you know when they're coming, and you adjust. Unlike games like SF4 (3 frame throws) and SFxT (5 frame throws) it won't be such an issue. If you're playing local, then your opponent is playing under the same conditions, if you're playing online, then it doesn't even matter because network lag is going to be a much larger problem. If you're going to be playing at a major like EVO, then just keep practicing on whatever you want to play on, but a week or so before find a lagless setup and practice to refresh your brain. It shouldn't take that long to adapt.

I suppose I can't argue with those points. I agree that while a CRT is lag-free and more fluid overall, up to 100ms still registers as being "instant". That number can vary more or less for some, but it's pretty accurate. Not to mention, when you get used to playing on a display that has a little more lag, you adapt and it becomes perfectly natural. The argument that you're sacrificing something with more lag just isn't 100% accurate until you reach a point where lag is truly detrimental to game-play, somewhere around 150+ms. As for EVO, if you're that serious then nothing but a 1 frame monitor should suffice, but that's a special case.
JSpectre88 is offline  
post #917 of 12909 Old 04-03-2013, 10:52 PM
Advanced Member
 
Moonchilde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 557
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSpectre88 View Post

I suppose I can't argue with those points. I agree that while a CRT is lag-free and more fluid overall, up to 100ms still registers as being "instant". That number can vary more or less for some, but it's pretty accurate. Not to mention, when you get used to playing on a display that has a little more lag, you adapt and it becomes perfectly natural. The argument that you're sacrificing something with more lag just isn't 100% accurate until you reach a point where lag is truly detrimental to game-play, somewhere around 150+ms. As for EVO, if you're that serious then nothing but a 1 frame monitor should suffice, but that's a special case.

Oh, I can definitely tell a very minor delay when playing on the set vs my CRT. My first example was in Street Fighter, simply jumping, there is a very slight delay on the plasma vs the CRT. It's pretty negligible, but playing on the plasma for a bit then hopping over on the CRT and seeing the difference, you're like, "Yeah, it's there, but it's not as bad as I thought." For a while I was really, really worried that 2 to 3 frames would be horrible based on the fear mongering some were doing, but I don't find it that bad. Some people were being very vocal and claiming these games are simply not playable on these sets.

As for EVO, what I'm probably going to do is play on my plasma and then about a week before, make mental notes on my CRT to get an idea of what may or may not be different. Still, it's not even really an issue, because no amount of solo play is going to get me ready for EVO anyway, and my only access to a wide variety of competition is online, which hurts my match knowledge more so than playing on a plasma. I do have a small local scene to play with, and we play on both laggy and lagless set ups, and it's fairly easy to hop from one to the other and not really be punished for adjusting to both in between sessions.
Moonchilde is offline  
post #918 of 12909 Old 04-03-2013, 11:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JSpectre88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,000
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Oh, I can definitely tell a very minor delay when playing on the set vs my CRT. My first example was in Street Fighter, simply jumping, there is a very slight delay on the plasma vs the CRT. It's pretty negligible, but playing on the plasma for a bit then hopping over on the CRT and seeing the difference, you're like, "Yeah, it's there, but it's not as bad as I thought." For a while I was really, really worried that 2 to 3 frames would be horrible based on the fear mongering some were doing, but I don't find it that bad. Some people were being very vocal and claiming these games are simply not playable on these sets.

As for EVO, what I'm probably going to do is play on my plasma and then about a week before, make mental notes on my CRT to get an idea of what may or may not be different. Still, it's not even really an issue, because no amount of solo play is going to get me ready for EVO anyway, and my only access to a wide variety of competition is online, which hurts my match knowledge more so than playing on a plasma. I do have a small local scene to play with, and we play on both laggy and lagless set ups, and it's fairly easy to hop from one to the other and not really be punished for adjusting to both in between sessions.

Yeah, the people that claim 50ms is too much lag to even play on drive me nuts. It's as if they don't understand what they're saying, as if 50ms of lag could possibly render a game "unplayable". That's 50/1,000th's of a second, you probably can't even double click something that fast. As for EVO, for some reason I wasn't thinking about how many typical, every day gamers still enter. I agree that a week or so should probably be more than enough time to re-adapt to the conditions they will be using.
Moonchilde likes this.
JSpectre88 is offline  
post #919 of 12909 Old 04-03-2013, 11:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Orta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,572
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSpectre88 View Post

I suppose I can't argue with those points. I agree that while a CRT is lag-free and more fluid overall, up to 100ms still registers as being "instant". That number can vary more or less for some, but it's pretty accurate. Not to mention, when you get used to playing on a display that has a little more lag, you adapt and it becomes perfectly natural. The argument that you're sacrificing something with more lag just isn't 100% accurate until you reach a point where lag is truly detrimental to game-play, somewhere around 150+ms. As for EVO, if you're that serious then nothing but a 1 frame monitor should suffice, but that's a special case.

Well the problem is the vast majority of 30fps console titles have 133ms of native lag all on their own, with some actually reaching as high as 166-200ms (GTA4 and Killzone 2 for example). More recent last leg games that frequently drop frame rates to the low 20's probably go even higher. When you add 75ms on top of that (or heaven forbid 100-120ms if you don't use Game Mode) you are in many cases past the average human response time. The impact of this is obvious and can not be marginalized or understated. Even if/when you do adapt to such a disconnect, the feeling of sluggishness and clumsiness is always there and you remain aware of it. I guess it depends on your definition of detrimental, but I personally consider controls that feel like crap (or even just worse than they should) to be detrimental.
Orta is offline  
post #920 of 12909 Old 04-03-2013, 11:59 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JSpectre88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,000
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

Well the problem is the vast majority of 30fps console titles have 133ms of native lag all on their own, with some actually reaching as high as 166-200ms (GTA4 and Killzone 2 for example). More recent last leg games that frequently drop frame rates to the low 20's probably go even higher. When you add 75ms on top of that (or heaven forbid 100-120ms if you don't use Game Mode) you are in many cases past the average human response time. The impact of this is obvious and can not be marginalized or understated. Even if/when you do adapt to such a disconnect, the feeling of sluggishness and clumsiness is always there and you remain aware of it. I guess it depends on your definition of detrimental, but I personally consider controls that feel like crap (or even just worse than they should) to be detrimental.

Source? I don't see how there would be such absurdly high lag, natively. eek.gif
JSpectre88 is offline  
post #921 of 12909 Old 04-04-2013, 12:06 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Orta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,572
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSpectre88 View Post

Source? I don't see how there would be such absurdly high lag, natively. eek.gif

Yea it's pretty surprising. The cumulative effect is what kills you and why a display with the lowest possible lag is absolutely essential. The goal is to undercut the threshold where you can readily identify lag with any given input device. Obviously a controller is much more forgiving than a mouse or pointer based scheme (e.g. Move, Wiimote, Hydra): http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-lag-factor-article
Orta is offline  
post #922 of 12909 Old 04-04-2013, 12:10 AM
AVS Special Member
 
JSpectre88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,000
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

Yea it's pretty surprising. The cumulative effect is what kills you and why a display with the lowest possible lag is absolutely essential. The goal is to undercut the threshold where you can readily identify lag with any given input device. Obviously a controller is much more forgiving than a mouse or pointer based scheme (e.g. Move, Wiimote, Hydra): http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-lag-factor-article

I found the same one a few minutes ago. I'm baffled, I had no idea this was the case. Is this a console limitation or do PC games also have high, default input lag? I knew that there was additional input lag from the processing going on as well as the game, but I had no idea it was so high! eek.gif
JSpectre88 is offline  
post #923 of 12909 Old 04-04-2013, 12:32 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Orta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,572
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSpectre88 View Post

I found the same one a few minutes ago. I'm baffled, I had no idea this was the case. Is this a console limitation or do PC games also have high, default input lag? I knew that there was additional input lag from the processing going on as well as the game, but I had no idea it was so high! eek.gif

Certainly vsync, triple buffering, and prerendered frames will add lag on PC. I don't think it's ever anywhere near these levels, but I'm not sure. It would be interesting to see what kind of minimum your standard console > pc port could achieve, I've never seen any kind of formal testing on that.
Orta is offline  
post #924 of 12909 Old 04-04-2013, 01:07 AM
 
somelogin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,072
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
bigg, well that sucks. I wish it wasn't so good since I have really no good chance of buying it. lol I would have to sell the kuro and if it's true it has issues then I assume I would have a hard time selling it for what I need. I may buy the ST60 from BB at some point just to see how I like it, in case it's good enough to make me feel like doing whatever to get and keep one. I didn't know the ST had 96hz this year either, so that's nice. Althoguh I watch 60hz content more than 24hz, so it may not be useful too often for me. For blu-rays, obviously, though.

moon, pretty much anything I watched, I think. But especially scenes with a lot of white or bright colors. It was so bad (health-wise).
somelogin is offline  
post #925 of 12909 Old 04-04-2013, 01:40 AM
Advanced Member
 
Moonchilde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 557
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSpectre88 View Post

I found the same one a few minutes ago. I'm baffled, I had no idea this was the case. Is this a console limitation or do PC games also have high, default input lag? I knew that there was additional input lag from the processing going on as well as the game, but I had no idea it was so high! eek.gif

A general rule is 60 fps is going to be 4 frames (66 ms) of lag and 30 fps will be about 8 (133 ms) although anything running at 60 fps and getting as minimal a response as possible really isn't lag, so you could count 60 fps gaming as near 0 delay. If you game on PC, best to turn off triple buffering since that adds a delay to your gaming. I leave Vsync on via driver and triple buffering off, and disable in game vsync. Things are feeling very good, most of the games I play are running at 60 fps. I haven't really played much PS3 on the ST60 yet, though I'm fairly sure it will feel ok. A clunky game is a clunky game won't matter if you're on CRT or not.
Moonchilde is offline  
post #926 of 12909 Old 04-04-2013, 03:42 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 23,972
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 994 Post(s)
Liked: 1080
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turrican4D View Post

I wouldn't describe a MLL difference between 0.009 cd/m2 and 0.005 cd/m2 as imperceptibly.

In a totally dark room, with a 0 ire input and 2 displays side by side, no. With the overwhelming % of material in a typically dark room, yes, very hard to see.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #927 of 12909 Old 04-04-2013, 04:55 AM
Member
 
77Rivers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 56
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Sears has the st60 in stock smile.gif 50 55 and 60`s only wish best buy get there stuff together!
77Rivers is offline  
post #928 of 12909 Old 04-04-2013, 05:24 AM
Member
 
LDBetaGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Centerville, OH
Posts: 180
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Over the years I've tried a number of different plasma displays from LG, Samsung and Panasonic. Although the picture was always good, I was distracted and annoyed by the buzzing they all exhibited. Its something I'm just very sensitive to. So I stayed with LCD for many years, hoping that some day a "buzzless" plasma might make an appearance. I recently read Chad B's review of the 50"ST60 in which he noted only a minimal amount of buzzing. I thought the time might be right to try a plasma set again.

Off I went to Best Buy and loaded up a 50" ST60. As the kids say, OMG! What an amazing TV! Its true, there is very little buzzing. Its only evident on mostly white screens and then only if I listen for it. Using just the weak TV speakers on a low volume is enough to cover the buzzing sound. And the picture is stellar. I used Chad's suggestion of starting with the Home Theater picture setting which I tweaked just a tiny bit after running the Digital Video Essentials disc. I've been drooling over the deep, dark, rich blacks and great color and contrast. I could not be more pleased with my purchase.
LDBetaGuy is offline  
post #929 of 12909 Old 04-04-2013, 05:56 AM
Senior Member
 
Stump909's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 212
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDBetaGuy View Post

Over the years I've tried a number of different plasma displays from LG, Samsung and Panasonic. Although the picture was always good, I was distracted and annoyed by the buzzing they all exhibited. Its something I'm just very sensitive to. So I stayed with LCD for many years, hoping that some day a "buzzless" plasma might make an appearance. I recently read Chad B's review of the 50"ST60 in which he noted only a minimal amount of buzzing. I thought the time might be right to try a plasma set again.

Off I went to Best Buy and loaded up a 50" ST60. As the kids say, OMG! What an amazing TV! Its true, there is very little buzzing. Its only evident on mostly white screens and then only if I listen for it. Using just the weak TV speakers on a low volume is enough to cover the buzzing sound. And the picture is stellar. I used Chad's suggestion of starting with the Home Theater picture setting which I tweaked just a tiny bit after running the Digital Video Essentials disc. I've been drooling over the deep, dark, rich blacks and great color and contrast. I could not be more pleased with my purchase.

Good news with the buzzing. It's funny, I've always noticed the buzzing on my current plasma, but for some reason it never bothered me. Now that I've seen it as a talking point in this thread (multiple times), it's become something I look for rather than accept....ignorance is bliss...
Stump909 is offline  
post #930 of 12909 Old 04-04-2013, 06:29 AM
Member
 
LDBetaGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Centerville, OH
Posts: 180
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post

....ignorance is bliss...

Amen! It was so much easier to buy home theater equipment before AVS! But I love AVS and am glad its here.
LDBetaGuy is offline  
Reply Plasma Flat Panel Displays

Tags
Panasonic Tc P55st60 55 Inch 1080p 600hz 3d Smart Plasma Hdtv , Panasonic Tc P60st60 60 Inch 3d Smart Plasma Hdtv , Panasonic Tc P65st60 65 Inch 3d Smart Plasma Hdtv , Panasonic Viera Tc P55vt50 , Sony Bravia Xbr52hx909 52 Lcd Tv Direct Led
Gear in this thread - P55st60 by PriceGrabber.com

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off