Official Panasonic TC-PxxST60 Series thread - Page 34 - AVS Forum
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post #991 of 12905 Old 04-04-2013, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by jkwi View Post

50 ST60 Swivel stand? Mine is coming Sat. Coming from Samsung and always had swivel stands
If 50 ST60 does not is there an aftermarket option? Really would like it to swivel. Maybe I'll have to get a lazy susan to put it on smile.gif.

From what I saw when I unboxed mine it does. I hung mine on my stand so I didn't look too closely.


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post #992 of 12905 Old 04-04-2013, 10:42 PM
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Just reporting I have ir on my st60 history channel H it's real faint ran slides even though I never did initially just to see if I had it yet. Watch history pretty religiously. At this same point with my st50 ir was much more noticeable but it's here on my st60.
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post #993 of 12905 Old 04-04-2013, 11:16 PM
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Just reporting I have ir on my st60 history channel H it's real faint ran slides even though I never did initially just to see if I had it yet. Watch history pretty religiously. At this same point with my st50 ir was much more noticeable but it's here on my st60.

I believe you. I got my 50ST60 today, and I had faint but clearly visible IR after exploring the menu for a measly 5 minutes in Cinema mode. It consisted of the "Viera Menu" text in the upper left corner and settings rectangles beneath it when viewing (for example) a 20% gray image or pure white screen. It cleared up after 15 minutes or so of the Screen Wipe. Later experimentation reproduced the IR creation and confirmed that slides also clear it up.

The set also buzzes badly as APL increases. I've never had a plasma, and I'm shocked at how loud it is. It's easily audible over quiet dialogue plus some minor AVR transformer hum and PC idle noise (albeit a very quiet PC) from 11 feet, which is as far as I can get from it in my room. It's really fun to watch scenes with flickering bright lights; it's bzzzzz-shhhhh-bzzz-shhh-bzzzz and on and on.

I would say the amount of IR I had would have no effect on normal viewing, but I have no idea how bad it can get or how persistent it can be. I have a very good LCD monitor (NEC 20WMGX2) that is susceptible to similar amounts of IR, and it has never been a real problem, just something I notice every now and then when a particular background color overlays an affected area. It's actually a replacement for another 20WMGX2 that had insane amounts of quickly acquired and very slow to dissipate IR; I would not say the ST60 is anything like that.

I'm pleased with some basic picture settings so plan on just watching the ST60 and running slides for the next 100 hours, and while watching shows, I'll also get a better idea of how intrusive the buzzing really is in practice. If it turns out to be a problem, would it be better to contact Panasonic or just exchange the set? I hate to exchange it, because I see no pixel defects, banding, DSE, or other problems. It's just the buzzing and the IR. Why can't I buy a perfect TV? smile.gif

Oh, and the buzzing essentially goes away in Standard mode thanks mostly to CATS and to a far lesser extent, the default contrast of 50, which is pretty much unwatchable even in my dark room, unfortunately. I haven't found any usable setting combination that can mitigate it.
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post #994 of 12905 Old 04-04-2013, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by BleezyHD View Post

Hey guys, I have been keeping up with this thread and read the UK review of the st60. I just bought a 65" vt50 from pauls tv for the $2500 no sales tax deal. I just received it this week and it is great. However reading all these reviews and seeing that the new st60 may be equal or perhaps slightly better PQ quality makes me question this purchase. I have the Panasonic EPP discount and can get a 60" st60 for around 1500 total.Can anyone compare the vt50 to the st60? Which would you recommend in this situation?

I have a 65VT50 and have played with a 50ST60 at a Best Buy. My only concern about the ST60s is that you don't have all the color adjustment options in the user menu. With that said, if they measure out correctly, it doesn't really matter. So the big question would have to be is how accurate is the color on the ST50. If it's not very accurate, then go with the VT50.

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post #995 of 12905 Old 04-04-2013, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by AdamHD View Post

Pardon my ignorance (no idea if this is possible), but could imput lag be something that could be fixed by future firmware updates? Tried to google the issue, but never found any solid info on if TVs with lag issues have been fixed with software updates. I'm more of a PC gamer, so the issue of imput lag on a TV is not a concern of mine personally, but I have seen it be a strong concern of others. The ST60 seems to be such a strong TV in all other aspects, it would suck to have this be a game breaking issue for console gamers interested in this set.

Extremely unlikely that they'd send out a firmware fix for input lag.

In electronics, it's always best to not buy something that's almost there expecting a firmware fix to correct something that's not right. This usually involves buying something for a few thousand dollars and waiting for the never to arrive firmware fix.

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post #996 of 12905 Old 04-04-2013, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

I believe you. I got my 50ST60 today, and I had faint but clearly visible IR after exploring the menu for a measly 5 minutes in Cinema mode. It consisted of the "Viera Menu" text in the upper left corner and settings rectangles beneath it when viewing (for example) a 20% gray image or pure white screen. It cleared up after 15 minutes or so of the Screen Wipe. Later experimentation reproduced the IR creation and confirmed that slides also clear it up.

The set also buzzes badly as APL increases. I've never had a plasma, and I'm shocked at how loud it is. It's easily audible over quiet dialogue plus some minor AVR transformer hum and PC idle noise (albeit a very quiet PC) from 11 feet, which is as far as I can get from it in my room. It's really fun to watch scenes with flickering bright lights; it's bzzzzz-shhhhh-bzzz-shhh-bzzzz and on and on.

I would say the amount of IR I had would have no effect on normal viewing, but I have no idea how bad it can get or how persistent it can be. I have a very good LCD monitor (NEC 20WMGX2) that is susceptible to similar amounts of IR, and it has never been a real problem, just something I notice every now and then when a particular background color overlays an affected area. It's actually a replacement for another 20WMGX2 that had insane amounts of quickly acquired and very slow to dissipate IR; I would not say the ST60 is anything like that.

I'm pleased with some basic picture settings so plan on just watching the ST60 and running slides for the next 100 hours, and while watching shows, I'll also get a better idea of how intrusive the buzzing really is in practice. If it turns out to be a problem, would it be better to contact Panasonic or just exchange the set? I hate to exchange it, because I see no pixel defects, banding, DSE, or other problems. It's just the buzzing and the IR. Why can't I buy a perfect TV? smile.gif

Oh, and the buzzing essentially goes away in Standard mode thanks mostly to CATS and to a far lesser extent, the default contrast of 50, which is pretty much unwatchable even in my dark room, unfortunately. I haven't found any usable setting combination that can mitigate it.

Your not one of those people who listens for the buzz with the tv muted are you.
Most plasmas will get a little image retention until u break it in. but after the break in period your good
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post #997 of 12905 Old 04-05-2013, 12:08 AM
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I would say, you and Moonchild don'T understand the issue and that drives me nuts. You simply don't understand, that you can't adapt to something, that is yet to be happen in the future on your screen! It's totally nonsense.

So how many years experience do you have playing these games? I've been playing fighters nearly all my life, starting in 1992, and I am not having any serious issues playing them on this set. We're talking 3/60th of a second compared to CRT. If you can't seriously adapt to that then you shouldn't be playing these kinds of games, because anyone with a good mind meta game will have you rage quitting because they will be controlling you instead of you adapting to their play style.

This is the last I'm going to respond to you, because honestly I don't think you know what you're talking about and I personally think you're looking for some reason to explain a weakness in your game other than yourself. Because lets look at the facts: A: You're playing with a friend locally, well you're both under the same lag conditions. B: You're playing online, which means your network latency is hurting you far more than your display lag, and your opponent could be under worse conditions than you. This, from your response, is your situation, because you seem to think your opponent is going to be at an advantage over you, which seriously isn't the case because when it comes down to it, online is pure garbage for competitive gaming and shouldn't be any indication of your or your opponent's skill level. There is also C: You're playing head to head using a LAN and you're worried your display will be lagging you over your opponent, but that's the least likely scenario and chances are, if you were at a LAN party you aren't taking your TV with you.


I'll update more as I play other kinds of games on what I think about gaming on this TV. So far things are ok on fighters, action games, and racers. I have yet to try some retro games, which I'll be doing in the near future and I'll update.
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post #998 of 12905 Old 04-05-2013, 12:21 AM
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Your not one of those people who listens for the buzz with the tv muted are you.

Well, I did say, "It's easily audible over quiet dialogue", then "while watching shows, I'll also get a better idea of how intrusive the buzzing really is in practice", which I think anticipated your question. That said, it is LOUD. If I wasn't aware that plasmas buzz, I would think the TV is blatantly defective. Maybe it is. It's hard to say without anything to compare it to, and while I've read comments to the effect that "If you can hear it more than a couple of feet away, it's broken," I've never found similar claims to be true for other products such as refrigerators.
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Most plasmas will get a little image retention until u break it in. but after the break in period your good

I've heard that, and I'm hoping it works out that way.
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post #999 of 12905 Old 04-05-2013, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by hotskins View Post


Most plasmas will get a little image retention until u break it in. but after the break in period your good

I've heard that, and I'm hoping it works out that way.
For a little more about living with IR click here.
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post #1000 of 12905 Old 04-05-2013, 02:21 AM
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post #1001 of 12905 Old 04-05-2013, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

Well, I did say, "It's easily audible over quiet dialogue", then "while watching shows, I'll also get a better idea of how intrusive the buzzing really is in practice", which I think anticipated your question. That said, it is LOUD. If I wasn't aware that plasmas buzz, I would think the TV is blatantly defective. Maybe it is. It's hard to say without anything to compare it to, and while I've read comments to the effect that "If you can hear it more than a couple of feet away, it's broken," I've never found similar claims to be true for other products such as refrigerators.
I've heard that, and I'm hoping it works out that way.

If you can hear it buzzing from a normal viewing distance when muted then something in the TV is out-of-spec at least, or downright defective and needs to be returned, repaired, or replaced. I've installed over a dozen Plasmas for other people plus four of my own, and have visited friends and family that already have Plasmas and have only come across one that buzzed loud enough to hear from the couch. He called Panasonic and they sent a technician out who replaced a defective board in the upper left corner and the TV is now virtually silent. My own 2005 PX50U in the den has started buzzing a little several months ago after 7+ years of silence and we can sometimes hear it from the couch during quiet bright scenes - but it never ever used to do that. This TV is getting sent off to Grandma's house soon - she's a little hard of hearing and can't hear it buzzing at our house.

There is no reason to tolerate buzzing from a normal viewing distance - it's not supposed to do that.

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post #1002 of 12905 Old 04-05-2013, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

If you can hear it buzzing from a normal viewing distance when muted then something in the TV is out-of-spec at least, or downright defective and needs to be returned, repaired, or replaced. I've installed over a dozen Plasmas for other people plus four of my own, and have visited friends and family that already have Plasmas and have only come across one that buzzed loud enough to hear from the couch. He called Panasonic and they sent a technician out who replaced a defective board in the upper left corner and the TV is now virtually silent. My own 2005 PX50U in the den has started buzzing a little several months ago after 7+ years of silence and we can sometimes hear it from the couch during quiet bright scenes - but it never ever used to do that. This TV is getting sent off to Grandma's house soon - she's a little hard of hearing and can't hear it buzzing at our house.

There is no reason to tolerate buzzing from a normal viewing distance - it's not supposed to do that.
+1 Its just common sense really. No reason to make it complicated. If its buzzing loud enough to bother you then return it or get it fixed. Its a tv, not a chainsaw.
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post #1003 of 12905 Old 04-05-2013, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

So how many years experience do you have playing these games? I've been playing fighters nearly all my life, starting in 1992, and I am not having any serious issues playing them on this set. We're talking 3/60th of a second compared to CRT. If you can't seriously adapt to that then you shouldn't be playing these kinds of games, because anyone with a good mind meta game will have you rage quitting because they will be controlling you instead of you adapting to their play style.

This is the last I'm going to respond to you, because honestly I don't think you know what you're talking about and I personally think you're looking for some reason to explain a weakness in your game other than yourself. Because lets look at the facts: A: You're playing with a friend locally, well you're both under the same lag conditions. B: You're playing online, which means your network latency is hurting you far more than your display lag, and your opponent could be under worse conditions than you. This, from your response, is your situation, because you seem to think your opponent is going to be at an advantage over you, which seriously isn't the case because when it comes down to it, online is pure garbage for competitive gaming and shouldn't be any indication of your or your opponent's skill level. There is also C: You're playing head to head using a LAN and you're worried your display will be lagging you over your opponent, but that's the least likely scenario and chances are, if you were at a LAN party you aren't taking your TV with you.


I'll update more as I play other kinds of games on what I think about gaming on this TV. So far things are ok on fighters, action games, and racers. I have yet to try some retro games, which I'll be doing in the near future and I'll update.

You guys clearly dont understand each other and talking about different experiences. Here is an easy example... while playing a fighting game there is a visual cue that tells you the opponent is going to do a certain move. Adding in 30ms of lag could be the difference between you blocking/countering that move or getting hit by it. Or even easier think of it like you and another person on a set with less input lag and all you have to do is wait for a light on the screen to turn green then hit your button. The less input lag set automatically has an advantage. You can debate it all you want but its fact. It seems you are in the camp of having just purchased the set and trying to defend your purchase when there is no need. You enjoy the set and can game on it comfortably so enjoy it and have fun!
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post #1004 of 12905 Old 04-05-2013, 06:57 AM
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FYI - Looks like the 65 inch models are starting to ship. Just got my confirmation from Panasonic last nite!!!
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post #1005 of 12905 Old 04-05-2013, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Atty View Post

I've got the 50'' ST60 and I'm really having buyers remorse. I love the TV, great quality compared to my old Samsung 40'' LED but I'm really upset about this high input lag. Sigh. frown.gif

Are you running Pixel Direct off and game mode on?
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post #1006 of 12905 Old 04-05-2013, 07:01 AM
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FYI - Looks like the 65 inch models are starting to ship. Just got my confirmation from Panasonic last nite!!!

Great news. I just wish I knew if other retailers were shipping soon....
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post #1007 of 12905 Old 04-05-2013, 07:05 AM
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Is D-nice (or others) expected to provide their views on the ST60, particularly compared to the VT50 and F8500?

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post #1008 of 12905 Old 04-05-2013, 07:15 AM
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Is D-nice (or others) expected to provide their views on the ST60, particularly compared to the VT50 and F8500?

Chad B has already given his review over at HDJ.
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post #1009 of 12905 Old 04-05-2013, 07:25 AM
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You guys clearly dont understand each other and talking about different experiences. Here is an easy example... while playing a fighting game there is a visual cue that tells you the opponent is going to do a certain move. Adding in 30ms of lag could be the difference between you blocking/countering that move or getting hit by it. Or even easier think of it like you and another person on a set with less input lag and all you have to do is wait for a light on the screen to turn green then hit your button. The less input lag set automatically has an advantage. You can debate it all you want but its fact. It seems you are in the camp of having just purchased the set and trying to defend your purchase when there is no need. You enjoy the set and can game on it comfortably so enjoy it and have fun!

Keep in mind also, that the person you are playing against, is most likely not gaming on a monitor, and playing on a tv with comparable input lag. So are you really at a disadvantage against most people you come across, probably not. The other thing to keep in mind, especially for first person shooters, is plasma typically has much less blurring during movement, this allows you to identify your target easier. If your super serious about gaming, and need super low input lag, buy a monitor, 23 to 27 inch. You will find that with the smaller size, you can see much more of the screen without your eyes having to shift.

From reading the above post, about image retention, if you are watching full screen content, with logos, and barely noticing image retention,with the panel being this new, to me, this sounds really promising. With every plasma I have ever owned, they become more resistant to image retention , with age (the only exception was my G10 model, that had horrible image retention during the process of my blacks rising. I sold that model, as I couldn't stand the black levels, even though the input lag was super low.

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post #1010 of 12905 Old 04-05-2013, 08:56 AM
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From what I saw when I unboxed mine it does. I hung mine on my stand so I didn't look too closely.

I own this tv and can attest that this set does not have a swivel stand. I'm not sure what you were looking at.rolleyes.gif
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post #1011 of 12905 Old 04-05-2013, 09:18 AM
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Is the input lag better or worse than last years ST50 model?
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post #1012 of 12905 Old 04-05-2013, 09:20 AM
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Is the input lag better or worse than last years ST50 model?

Unconfirmed to be more, as it was a European model tested.

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post #1013 of 12905 Old 04-05-2013, 09:21 AM
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Is the input lag better or worse than last years ST50 model?

Wow I can't believe no one thought to ask this question yet...rolleyes.gif

You'll find plenty of debate throughout the thread.
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post #1014 of 12905 Old 04-05-2013, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

I believe you. I got my 50ST60 today, and I had faint but clearly visible IR after exploring the menu for a measly 5 minutes in Cinema mode. It consisted of the "Viera Menu" text in the upper left corner and settings rectangles beneath it when viewing (for example) a 20% gray image or pure white screen. It cleared up after 15 minutes or so of the Screen Wipe.

I own the ST 60 too and also have noticed IR with the menu screen up just for a minute or two. It did however go away quickly. It was like when you turn off TV without turning cable box off first in a dark room. You see the shadow details of certain images for a while. I'm not sure but I think this is just the left over glow of the plasma phosphors with brighter images or certain colors.
My other plasmas TV's do not generate this IR that quickly. As long as it doesn't stay on the screen and be a retained image for a prolonged time I guess I don't care. This set is def more sensitive than my other plasmas.
I
The fact that your image retained on screen should not be. You shouldn't of had to use screen wipe for 15 minutes this early on. In fact I have never used it with my other panny which is a VT series. My VT does not show IR with the menu either. Using the screen wipe too often or for too long ruin's your white's! So I recommend not using the screen wipe.

I do not have any buzzing issues with my set. There may be something wrong with you TV. If you are unhappy I would return it to store if you still can. Don't bother calling Panasonic to fix bc once they try to repair your set you will no longer be able to return it.
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post #1015 of 12905 Old 04-05-2013, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Imperatore View Post

I own this tv and can attest that this set does not have a swivel stand. I'm not sure what you were looking at.rolleyes.gif

My apologies. Thanks for the correction. I left the pedestal wrapped as I'm not using it currently, but the pieces resembled earlier Panasonics that did swivel. Again, sorry for the misinformation.
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Def Tech: BP-8060ST, CS-8060, PM1000; Denon X4000; Panasonic 50ST60
Mac Mini; Xbox One; Xbox 360; Samsung BD-D6500; Panamax M5300-PM
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post #1016 of 12905 Old 04-05-2013, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post

Chad B has already given his review over at HDJ.

Review is up on here too: >>>> Click Here

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post #1017 of 12905 Old 04-05-2013, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post

Are you running Pixel Direct off and game mode on?

Stump you are correct. Gamers need to keep game mode on and this will help improve the lag. TV game mode is located in advanced picture settings. It is good for action games and shooters. You will notice some judder bc game mode on disables motion smoother. One test had a 100 ms difference with motion smoother on.
It is still high with game mode on though. Lag clocks in at around 80ms with game mode on.
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post #1018 of 12905 Old 04-05-2013, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by biggweeziehd View Post

Your the man you just saved me big time! I only have 2 days to take back my 50" it's too small
I'm happy I helped you and decided to throw that out there wink.gif I had a feeling most wouldn't be aware of this change in return period.
What size are upgrading to? Is it a different model or are you just waiting till April 22nd for the 60" ST60? biggrin.gif
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post #1019 of 12905 Old 04-05-2013, 11:30 AM
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Wow I can't believe no one thought to ask this question yet...rolleyes.gif

You'll find plenty of debate throughout the thread.

Yeah...P L E N T Y ;-)
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post #1020 of 12905 Old 04-05-2013, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Atty View Post

I've got the 50'' ST60 and I'm really having buyers remorse. I love the TV, great quality compared to my old Samsung 40'' LED but I'm really upset about this high input lag. Sigh. frown.gif

Are you upset as a result of actual gaming experience or from the reports on the UK version? If the former, which games have you played?
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