Official Panasonic TC-PxxST60 Series thread - Page 38 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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sigmaace01's Avatar sigmaace01 08:06 PM 04-06-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

Set the Brightness control so that 16 remains black and 17 is barely visible in the black clipping pattern. Sounds like your Brightness is set a bit too high.

For the white clipping pattern there's a little more to it. Use the Contrast control on your ST60 and set it as high as you can so that at the very least 235 and below are flashing. If you find that the picture is too bright, lower it so that you don't experience eye fatigue.

The AVSHD709 pattern manual can be found here.

edit: I jumped into this discussion late... the above is simply how to set Brightness and Contrast.
I got the black just right (-4 setting), but couldn't get white clipping correct. Contrast at 100 and it didn't drop.

sawfish's Avatar sawfish 08:07 PM 04-06-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by sigmaace01 View Post

1. 15-25 blinking.
3. 230-245

That's bad, huh? I wish I knew what to adjust.

Rahzel already covered that nicely, so I'll just ask if you are seeing a reddish tint to the blacks and IIRC, also for the whites. The whites definitely had tinting on my 50ST60 with these settings. The default settings don't exhibit these problems.
sawfish's Avatar sawfish 08:15 PM 04-06-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by sigmaace01 View Post

I got the black just right (-4 setting), but couldn't get white clipping correct. Contrast at 100 and it didn't drop.

You should start from a clean slate, with defaults for everything, and don't touch the white balance and gamma settings unless you have a meter or get some settings from a known entity or at least ones that more people agree on, that don't exhibit obvious problems with the most basic test patterns. While 16 and below need to be pure black, it's much less important to get white bars 235 and above to disappear, and it's arguably good to have them blinking somewhat above that due to WTW ("whiter-than-white") highlights in some video. The AVS709HD manual goes into all this, and Spears and Munsil also have good articles on their site.
rahzel's Avatar rahzel 08:26 PM 04-06-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by sigmaace01 View Post

I got the black just right (-4 setting), but couldn't get white clipping correct. Contrast at 100 and it didn't drop.
If that's the case, then just set the contrast so that the brightness is at a comfortable level for your viewing environment. Unlike the Brightness (which sets the black level) the Contrast control (white level) can be set to whatever, as long as there aren't any negative effects or you don't experience eye strain. If you can see more bars flashing, that's not a bad thing... it just means more white detail will be visible. 100 contrast (in Custom mode anyway) will probably be way too bright.
cadett's Avatar cadett 08:36 PM 04-06-2013
For what it's worth on my 60GT50 a contrast setting of 80 measure 40fl
Cleveland Plasma's Avatar Cleveland Plasma 10:20 PM 04-06-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamHD View Post

I know this is the ST60 forum, but talking to the manager today at Video Only, he stated that they are getting a "very large shipment of new Panasonic plasma TV's next week" (I actually saw his "incoming shipment" paperwork). He, himself was not sure exactly what models they are getting in, but said he was almost 100% sure (considering they already have ST60's in stock) they are getting the VT60's in! Take it with a grain of salt if you want, I just thought I'd give a heads up to anyone interested in this info.
Wewill see what happens, should be pretty soon .........
star98's Avatar star98 12:13 AM 04-07-2013
W/B Adjustment go in that selecting and lower your red hue. if it's over 2 you will notice the reds significantly...Lower it to 0 and that will take care of the problem..
biggweeziehd's Avatar biggweeziehd 09:36 AM 04-07-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

Wewill see what happens, should be pretty soon .........

Quote:
Originally Posted by star98 View Post

W/B Adjustment go in that selecting and lower your red hue. if it's over 2 you will notice the reds significantly...Lower it to 0 and that will take care of the problem..

After doing that these setting look ok thx
moshock's Avatar moshock 10:25 AM 04-07-2013
I've asked a few questions related to input lag over the past 20 pages, but they seem to go unanswered. Probably just because there's not enough data out yet. But here's a direct question I hope someone can answer:

Let's assume this ST60 has an input lag of ~75ms in Game Mode. And I had a 60ST30 that I never used in Game Mode (thought it was gimmick?) and used in Custom Mode (can't find any input lag data on this?). How much input lag do you think I have been playing games with over the past 18 months with my 60ST30, and do you think I'll notice the difference going to the ST60 with ~75ms of input lag?
astateofmind's Avatar astateofmind 11:23 AM 04-07-2013
Hi guys, i just ordered a p55st60 and is my first plasma tv. Can anyone PM with a guide ( link?) about what to do to test it and to use in the first 200 hours and what tools to use and where from i can dld those? I keep hearing about some slides and tools and etc but I have no idea where to get those and how to use.

Thanks in advance.
Ph8te's Avatar Ph8te 12:30 PM 04-07-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by moshock View Post

I've asked a few questions related to input lag over the past 20 pages, but they seem to go unanswered. Probably just because there's not enough data out yet. But here's a direct question I hope someone can answer:

Let's assume this ST60 has an input lag of ~75ms in Game Mode. And I had a 60ST30 that I never used in Game Mode (thought it was gimmick?) and used in Custom Mode (can't find any input lag data on this?). How much input lag do you think I have been playing games with over the past 18 months with my 60ST30, and do you think I'll notice the difference going to the ST60 with ~75ms of input lag?

Not ony is there not enough tests on the TV, but you also have to remmeber that you have made your sample size VERY small by asking about input lag from one set to another which are one model year apart.....You asking about assumptions and do people think that YOU would be able to see any input lag, when the only person who would be able to make the decision is you.....The amount of lag one notices is something that differs form individual to individual. If it means that much to you, then wait until some more people are able to test it so you can get a better idea of what the experience will be like. I have seen a number of people say they didnt notice anything when playing games, but then you have people looking solely at the numbers and discounting the set.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by snoobley View Post

Which tv is better, the 50ST60 or the samsung F5500? I'm looking for the best mid range 50"/51" plasma

The "best" is the one you like the best.....Its a loaded question...and since you asked in a Panasonic thread the answers will tend to be biased, same thing if you posted in a Samsung thread....The F5500 is still fairly new and I havent seen any pro reviews on it, the only end user report I have seen is on the 5300 which is the model below it.,.The ST60 is a very strong set and has been getting good reviews from end users as well as the pros. The best hing would be to go see these sets in person and decide what you like better wink.gif ....
RodK's Avatar RodK 12:37 PM 04-07-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

No ony is there not enough tests on the TVV, but you also have to remmeber that you have made your smple size VERY small by asking about input lag from one set to another which are one model year apart.....You asking about assumptions and do people think that YOU would be able to tell any input lag, when the only person who would be able to make the decision is you.....The amount of lag one notices is something that differs form individual to individual. If it means that much to you, then wait until some mroe people are able to test it so you can get a better idea of what the experience will be like. I ahve seena number of people say they didnt notice anything when playing games, but then you ahve people looking soley at the numbers and discounting the set.....
The "best" is the one you like the best.....Its a loaded question...and since you asked in a Panasonic thread the answers will tend to be biased, same thing if you posted in a Samsung thread....THe F5500 is still fairly new and I ahvent seen any pro reviews on it, the only end user report I have seen is on the 5300 which is the model below it.,.The ST60 is a very strong set nad has been getting good reviews from rend suers as well as the pros. The best hing would be to go see these sets in person and decide what you like better wink.gif ....


Ph8te - time to lay off the coffee eek.gif There are more typos in your response than I thought was humanly possible biggrin.gif
openwheelracing's Avatar openwheelracing 12:49 PM 04-07-2013
I did some quick comparison at my local Sears. They had a S60, ST60, and UT50 side by side. Their show room is actually quite dark compared to Bestbuy, so the condition is not terrible (but not great either). The feed was garbage so take this with a grain of salt. The ST60 does stand out with higher contrast (at the same setting) with whitest whites. Overall the ST60 looks fantastic, but the S60 is not far behind. I suspect the S60 has more aggressive ABL which has yellowish tone to the white. Anyway just my observation in the store.
supermandlb's Avatar supermandlb 01:28 PM 04-07-2013
http://www.displaylag.com/display-database/#participants-list

Check this out, should answer your question
Atty's Avatar Atty 01:49 PM 04-07-2013
I just got done playing some Halo 4.

I used to play Halo competitively as well as many other games. Even when I play these days (rare) I play to win. I hate losing. I have fun when I am winning. It is what it is.

Anyway, I haven't played in about 4 months in any competitive manner so I wasn't used to playing. With that said, I still managed to be very strong. First game I finished first in a Snipers playlist. I chose this first because it requires quick movements and reactions. After that I played more aggressive 4v4 general slayer games. I was able to gun extremely well in fast paced hectic environments, constantly re-adjusting to moving players and situations. I didn't feel at a disadvantage compared to my old 40'' Samsung LED from a few years back. I never felt at a disadvantage from any sort of input lag or as a result from the TV.

I think if I was used to playing on a high caliber gaming focused monitor with as little input lag and as low a response time as is possible I would notice it on this TV. I kept focusing on how long it took on screen actions like turning or button pressing to happen compared to when I pressed a button and I couldn't tell there was a gap. It felt as instant as it could be.

I kept all picture settings off with Game Mode on.

I think this is one of those situations where professionals absolutely swear by a certain standard in their equipment because at their level it can be make or break. Everything else is so stringent that any room for error is unacceptable. For us normal people we are never really at a level where it would make a difference. Obviously an extreme amount of lag would be unacceptable to anyone but I'm confident there are hundred of other factors at play that are far more detrimental to someones performance at a video game than the amount of input lag we have under game mode.

Just my opinion. I'll keep you all posted on my opinion as I keep playing more and more.
Ph8te's Avatar Ph8te 01:53 PM 04-07-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by RodK View Post

Ph8te - time to lay off the coffee eek.gif There are more typos in your response than I thought was humanly possible biggrin.gif

Actually need more coffee oh and not to have my laptop on an angle so it vents better wink.gif......Not to mention ever since the forum upgrade, I have had some weird things happening with my posts, I dont see it as much with other forums.......
xcloudx82's Avatar xcloudx82 02:00 PM 04-07-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by moshock View Post

Let's assume this ST60 has an input lag of ~75ms in Game Mode. And I had a 60ST30 that I never used in Game Mode (thought it was gimmick?) and used in Custom Mode (can't find any input lag data on this?). How much input lag do you think I have been playing games with over the past 18 months with my 60ST30, and do you think I'll notice the difference going to the ST60 with ~75ms of input lag?

I'm in the same your situation: i had a 50st30 and i played always in cinema mode, and it was ok for me. I returned the ST30 for the "green bloob" problem, and now i'm looking for a new TV; i think i'll go with an ST60 or GT60, so now i have to face this "input lag problem".

Unfortunately i think that an ST30, also if not in game mode, has an input lag ~20 ms (i have no proof for this, maybe an actual owner could help...), and if the ST60 has an input lag of ~70ms i think it could disturb me. I'm saying so because i've made some tests, for example using triple buffering (that raise input lag) to see how it affects my gameplay, and i saw that it causes a bad effect of delay, specially when using the mouse as a pointer....
star98's Avatar star98 03:37 PM 04-07-2013
W/B Adjustment go in that selecting and lower your red hue. if it's over 2 you will notice the reds significantly...Lower it to 0 and that will take care of the problem..
..I used them calibrating settings and lowered the red hue for the dark read area, and that fixed the red push....and I'm ,loving the results....



star98's Avatar star98 03:48 PM 04-07-2013
Another one, with lights on..


star98's Avatar star98 03:52 PM 04-07-2013
Oh and I took this pic with a Samsung Galaxy 3 s, so the photo don't do this TV any justice...
Dabois09's Avatar Dabois09 05:53 PM 04-07-2013
I spent about an hour and a half today with the "50"ST60 at my local Sears. They allowed me to bring in my Xbox 360, and even provided a chair for me to sit in! Top notch, but that's what you get with commission based employees. But I digress...

Anyways; I am a big time gamer: FPS, RPG, Sports, Fighting etc. I've been hearing such mixed reviews with this set in regards to gaming so I had to go out and test it first hand.

The following titles were tested:

1. Call of Duty: Black Ops II
2. NBA 2k13
3. Madden NFL 13
4. Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
5. Doom 3: BFG Edition
6. UFC Undisputed 3
7. EA Sports Fight Night Champion

I came away being utterly impressed, and will be picking up this set on Wednesday. I believe no one should refrain from purchasing this set simply because of what is in my opinion "perceived" poor input lag. This is a very versatile set as well; I don't think there's a picture you can't get out of it that will meet anybody's needs. I'm in particular sensitive to input lag (and many other problems of sets) and could see (feel) nothing. This was on "Game Mode" with enhancements disabled (still fantastic picture). Now when I enabled the "Motion Smoother" option that's when I ran into trouble with input lag, but outside of that it was GREAT!

Side note: I was shocked at how bad the "Standard Torch" mode looked... just absolutely terrible, but after an adjustment here and there it was great. Handles motion very well, and if you're a fan of the Samsung "Vivid colors" this set can replicate that. All in all this is the best bang for the buck. Heck it even looked great on the showroom floor with lights a blazing after I tweaked it! Can't wait to bring it home on Wednesday.

If anyone has an specific questions.... feel free to ask
Orta's Avatar Orta 06:20 PM 04-07-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by moshock View Post

I've asked a few questions related to input lag over the past 20 pages, but they seem to go unanswered. Probably just because there's not enough data out yet. But here's a direct question I hope someone can answer:

Let's assume this ST60 has an input lag of ~75ms in Game Mode. And I had a 60ST30 that I never used in Game Mode (thought it was gimmick?) and used in Custom Mode (can't find any input lag data on this?). How much input lag do you think I have been playing games with over the past 18 months with my 60ST30, and do you think I'll notice the difference going to the ST60 with ~75ms of input lag?

The XX30's (and all prior years I'm aware of) did not require Game Mode with HD sources, all modes are the same speed. The exceptions were Standard Def content (Game Mode dramatically improved speed) and the Motion Smoother setting (in both SD and HD). If you've had that setting turned on (even in Game Mode) you've been experiencing more than ~32ms. The XX50's and now the XX60's changed things up where Game Mode reduces lag for both HD and SD sources.
Atty's Avatar Atty 07:46 PM 04-07-2013


Decided to snap a picture of Game of Thrones tonight. I used the custom settings from the other thread except on Warm 1 versus Warm 2.

It's a 50'' ST60
moshock's Avatar moshock 08:49 PM 04-07-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Not ony is there not enough tests on the TV, but you also have to remmeber that you have made your sample size VERY small by asking about input lag from one set to another which are one model year apart.....You asking about assumptions and do people think that YOU would be able to see any input lag, when the only person who would be able to make the decision is you.....The amount of lag one notices is something that differs form individual to individual. If it means that much to you, then wait until some more people are able to test it so you can get a better idea of what the experience will be like. I have seen a number of people say they didnt notice anything when playing games, but then you have people looking solely at the numbers and discounting the set.....

The models are two years apart. And the sample size is very small, two series, which means it should be comparing apples-to-apples, right? xx milliseconds vs 75 milliseconds. I agree with what you're saying about the differences from individual to individual, but is the difference from let's say 32ms to 75ms noticeable by... anyone? or only equipment? And I don't think people should discount the set based on this, but it would make me consider spending more on a VT/ZT model if they post lower input lag numbers. Maybe...

Quote:
Originally Posted by supermandlb View Post

http://www.displaylag.com/display-database/#participants-list

Check this out, should answer your question

The problem with that is I don't see what video mode they had them in. Custom? Game?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

The XX30's (and all prior years I'm aware of) did not require Game Mode with HD sources, all modes are the same speed. The exceptions were Standard Def content (Game Mode dramatically improved speed) and the Motion Smoother setting (in both SD and HD). If you've had that setting turned on (even in Game Mode) you've been experiencing more than ~32ms. The XX50's and now the XX60's changed things up where Game Mode reduces lag for both HD and SD sources.

Thank you for this information. Interesting, and maybe that's why I never used Game Mode. I was always under the impression it did nothing really. I always had Motion Smoother set to Off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xcloudx82 View Post

I'm in the same your situation: i had a 50st30 and i played always in cinema mode, and it was ok for me. I returned the ST30 for the "green bloob" problem, and now i'm looking for a new TV; i think i'll go with an ST60 or GT60, so now i have to face this "input lag problem".

Unfortunately i think that an ST30, also if not in game mode, has an input lag ~20 ms (i have no proof for this, maybe an actual owner could help...), and if the ST60 has an input lag of ~70ms i think it could disturb me. I'm saying so because i've made some tests, for example using triple buffering (that raise input lag) to see how it affects my gameplay, and i saw that it causes a bad effect of delay, specially when using the mouse as a pointer....

I guess we'll have to wait and see. I'm wondering if the VT/ZT will have less input lag, which could make me throw a few more dollars at this next TV purchase than I anticipated. Or maybe some more reviews will come out showing less input lag on the NA units.

Have any of the AVS-forum-friendly calibrators mentioned anything yet? And out of curiosity, what is the input lag measuring in non-Game modes?
Atty's Avatar Atty 09:30 PM 04-07-2013
I just realized I had a CRT sitting around. Best way to measure input lag?
xcloudx82's Avatar xcloudx82 01:58 AM 04-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dabois09 View Post


I came away being utterly impressed, and will be picking up this set on Wednesday. I believe no one should refrain from purchasing this set simply because of what is in my opinion "perceived" poor input lag. This is a very versatile set as well; I don't think there's a picture you can't get out of it that will meet anybody's needs. I'm in particular sensitive to input lag (and many other problems of sets) and could see (feel) nothing. This was on "Game Mode" with enhancements disabled (still fantastic picture). Now when I enabled the "Motion Smoother" option that's when I ran into trouble with input lag, but outside of that it was GREAT!

One thing i've discovered in my tests is that the only way to perceive how you feel input lag is by comparison: for example you should try to play a game in a CRT monitor (or TV) and then try the same game on a TV with high input lag. I've done this and i've discovered that for me input lag is a very bad thing (also if play only single player games) .

I think that if you don't compare, you could belive that you are playing perfectly, as the game seems smooth. But as soon as you try a low-input lag monitor, it's like another word, the game seems a lot more "responsive" and it feels like you are playing a total different game....

This is especially true when you play with a mouse, and you move the pointer around the screen: with more input lag you have the impression that the pointer is "following" you moviment, but is always a bittle late. If you play with a gamepad i think the effect is much more negligible....

Maybe this is not the same for all the gamers, but for me this is annoying...


Quote:
Originally Posted by moshock View Post

I agree with what you're saying about the differences from individual to individual, but is the difference from let's say 32ms to 75ms noticeable by... anyone? or only equipment?

Unfortunatley i haven't any number that could help us to understand this because in my tests i've added input lag using triple buffering, but i don't know how lag it adds, i know only that it adds lagg and i can feel it....
xcloudx82's Avatar xcloudx82 02:04 AM 04-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atty View Post

I just realized I had a CRT sitting around. Best way to measure input lag?

if you have a PC, you could try this:

http://tft.vanity.dk/inputlag.html

connect the pc to a CRT monitor and a TV, and use the "clone" mode so that the 2 displays will show the same image. Then start the timer and with a camera make some photos while the timer is running...you'll see that the TV timer is in "late"...
Dabois09's Avatar Dabois09 02:50 AM 04-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by xcloudx82 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dabois09 View Post


I came away being utterly impressed, and will be picking up this set on Wednesday. I believe no one should refrain from purchasing this set simply because of what is in my opinion "perceived" poor input lag. This is a very versatile set as well; I don't think there's a picture you can't get out of it that will meet anybody's needs. I'm in particular sensitive to input lag (and many other problems of sets) and could see (feel) nothing. This was on "Game Mode" with enhancements disabled (still fantastic picture). Now when I enabled the "Motion Smoother" option that's when I ran into trouble with input lag, but outside of that it was GREAT!

One thing i've discovered in my tests is that the only way to perceive how you feel input lag is by comparison: for example you should try to play a game in a CRT monitor (or TV) and then try the same game on a TV with high input lag. I've done this and i've discovered that for me input lag is a very bad thing (also if play only single player games) .

I think that if you don't compare, you could belive that you are playing perfectly, as the game seems smooth. But as soon as you try a low-input lag monitor, it's like another word, the game seems a lot more "responsive" and it feels like you are playing a total different game....

This is especially true when you play with a mouse, and you move the pointer around the screen: with more input lag you have the impression that the pointer is "following" you moviment, but is always a bittle late. If you play with a gamepad i think the effect is much more negligible....

Maybe this is not the same for all the gamers, but for me this is annoying...


Quote:
Originally Posted by moshock View Post

I agree with what you're saying about the differences from individual to individual, but is the difference from let's say 32ms to 75ms noticeable by... anyone? or only equipment?

Unfortunatley i haven't any number that could help us to understand this because in my tests i've added input lag using triple buffering, but i don't know how lag it adds, i know only that it adds lagg and i can feel it....

I totally am aware of what input lag is, and it's been grossly overstated in this thread by a minority. I too am sensitive to it.... You mention PC usage... I don't know why anyone would buy a HDTV let alone a plasma to use it as a monitor.

Are you hear to sell us gamers low-input lag monitors or....? I'm well aware of what 23" LED's (monitors) are and are not capable of.
xcloudx82's Avatar xcloudx82 04:34 AM 04-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dabois09 View Post

You mention PC usage... I don't know why anyone would buy a HDTV let alone a plasma to use it as a monitor.

i'm referring to PC usage with videogames: I can assure you that playing PC videogames on a plasma is fantastic: perfect 60hz motion, no motion blur caused by LCD light, and so on. I owned an ST30 for over a month and with his 16ms of input lag gaming was a way much better than playing on my 2 LCD PC monitors...


I've read many times that plasma are not for pc gaming, but as long as they have low input lag, for me they are the best.

Now, the problem is ST60 hasn't 16ms but much more, and i suspect this could be a problem.... (i can't say it for sure, i should try ! but i think the only way to do that is buying the set!).
dftkell's Avatar dftkell 07:03 AM 04-08-2013
Hi everyone,

While waiting to purchase my new 60, I have a few questions that may or may not be able to be answered at this point.

1. Will the VT60 / ZT60 have significantly better anti-reflective glass over the ST60? (I have a decent amount of windows. Although most of my watching is at night. Just thinking Sunday football.)

2. Is it worth stepping up from the ST60 to the VT60 for THX picture mode, if I plan on using a calibration blu-ray disc, or using the settings from D-Nice? (Assuming he calibrates and posts.)

I realized there may not be concrete answers to these, but I thought I'd get some opinions. I have the budget for the VT60 or even the ZT60 but I'm always a bang for the buck shopper considering diminishing returns. The VT and ZT will be almost twice the price as the ST. Just wondering if that's worth it.

Thanks,
Dan
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