Official Panasonic TC-PxxST60 Series thread - Page 40 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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supermandlb's Avatar supermandlb 11:44 AM 04-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatal One View Post

If I have the time, I will try some input lag testing on my US spec 50" ST60 this evening or next.

Please do, I am interested to see the results!! I play a lot of COD games online and I have not noticed any lag with my 50" ST60. With that said, I do have a very fast internet connection. But, as far as input lag... I really haven't noticed any. - As a point of reference, this is my home internet speed. Not sure, but having internet speeds this fast, maybe I just don't notice imput lag??

wattheF's Avatar wattheF 11:48 AM 04-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

LOL, you guys wanna see something terrible? Check this: Download the provided test image, save it to your desktop. Then double click it and view it in windows photo viewer. Zoom out all the way, it makes your TV spazz the hell out. The more you zoom out, the worse it gets, as you zoom in, it becomes less a problem. I created the image to test image geometry and see how ABL craps out on the UT50. ABL must be killing it on the ST60, it all of a sudden starts going dither crazy. Wanna see, try it out for yourselves. Or, check this image.



Here is the image that causes ABL/Dither spazzing. It's a 1920x1080 with alternating black/white lines 2 pixels thick.


Ok so what does that mean for normal viewing content? Since I won't ever sit there and watch a test pattern I'm not sure how much this should worry me? Unless it is a bad sign of something that could pop up in normal content.

Have you seen any evidence of issues with normal content?

I actually am a bit concerned about ABL function. Mostly as it pertains to watching hockey. Some plasma's struggle with fluctuating brightness issues with hockey.

Has anyone watched any hockey to test for issues? Please note I am not talking about the photographers flashes & strobes at the arena that can be seen on all TV's, but rather unnatural jumps in brightness of the whole screen in noticeable steps or pops.

The 50 models had NO issues with this (Samsung plasma's do) so I am expecting (hoping) no issues with the ST60's.

Anything you can let me know about this is appreciated.
moshock's Avatar moshock 11:56 AM 04-08-2013
xcloudx82 - I'm confused. I originally thought your tests were on a US ST60 set. Then I thought it was a EU ST60 set. Now I have no clue what you tested on, LOL. Please advise.

supermandlb - What kind of internet service do you have? Wow, that's fast.
supermandlb's Avatar supermandlb 12:00 PM 04-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by moshock View Post

xcloudx82 - I'm confused. I originally thought your tests were on a US ST60 set. Then I thought it was a EU ST60 set. Now I have no clue what you tested on, LOL. Please advise.

supermandlb - What kind of internet service do you have? Wow, that's fast.

Verizon Fios - Quantum
lovswr's Avatar lovswr 12:21 PM 04-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobMueller10 View Post

Out of curiosity, does anyone here watch the actual programming, or does everyone just watch the tv? :P

No we don't. This is AVS, were nerds are nerds & black levels are sarosanct! biggrin.gif













j/k
xcloudx82's Avatar xcloudx82 12:24 PM 04-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by moshock View Post

xcloudx82 - I'm confused. I originally thought your tests were on a US ST60 set. Then I thought it was a EU ST60 set. Now I have no clue what you tested on, LOL. Please advise.

no, i had only an EU 50ST30, but at the time i didn't test it, but i played a lot with it....now i'm making some tests with my PC monitor to understand how i'm sensible to input lag...the problem is that it's difficult to "add" or "simulate" input lag...
Moonchilde's Avatar Moonchilde 12:33 PM 04-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by wattheF View Post

Ok so what does that mean for normal viewing content? Since I won't ever sit there and watch a test pattern I'm not sure how much this should worry me? Unless it is a bad sign of something that could pop up in normal content.

Have you seen any evidence of issues with normal content?

I actually am a bit concerned about ABL function. Mostly as it pertains to watching hockey. Some plasma's struggle with fluctuating brightness issues with hockey.

Has anyone watched any hockey to test for issues? Please note I am not talking about the photographers flashes & strobes at the arena that can be seen on all TV's, but rather unnatural jumps in brightness of the whole screen in noticeable steps or pops.

The 50 models had NO issues with this (Samsung plasma's do) so I am expecting (hoping) no issues with the ST60's.

Anything you can let me know about this is appreciated.

The ABL is much better on the ST60 than the UT50. However, the difference is the UT50 didn't dither spaz as much as the ST60 is, but the ST60 is handling ABL a LOT better. I'll also note that screen uniformity and horizontal color bleeding is significantly better on the ST60 than it was on the UT50 (and ST50 that I tested at a store) so it has those benefits. I used to see a lot of brightness jumps when just viewing this forum, for example, but that doesn't happen on the ST60. It's not as bad as the 50 series.

As to real world viewing? I'm not sure it's such an issue, but the fact that alternating lines (black and white creating high contrast content) causes dither spaz does have me worried that high contrast scenes (for example a fine detailed rainy mountain top) may cause excessive dithering.


Just got done doing some retro game testing. These are all games I played hundreds of times as a kid on the NES back in the day, on a 19 inch Sharp CRT. I'm talking Super Mario Bros, Ninja Gaiden 1,2, and 3, and Castlevania 3 amongst many others. Today I tested the first 2 levels on each game listed. I actually had some problems in these games, and was dying a bit more than I expected. So, I switched over to my CRT monitor, and played. Things clicked, and I was able to play as I remember back in the day, and some stuff just kinda happened like I was on auto pilot mode, doing things I wasn't really thinking about. So, there actually is a timing difference that I noticed on games I had memorized. Thing is, I don't notice it too much on 3D games but on 2D platformers I do take notice. I mentioned playing Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo much earlier in the thread, the biggest difference is when it comes to jumps. Jumps are delayed, and I can deal with it in a fighter since you can to some extent, control the flow of the game and the timing of your opponent, but I noticed in side scrolling platformers it becomes an issue. Things I had been so used to and key visual cues I had memorized 20 years ago just weren't clicking. I think it's because these earlier games are so based on having good jump timing that I was having a hard time adjusting, and this correlates well to me noticing the delayed jumps in fighters earlier on, although attacking in these games don't feel particularly bad. It's the instant stuff without start up frames that I notice the difference on. I also think it's in part because everything is fixed, you have to bend your will to the design the game rather than make it bend to your will, unlike an opponent in a fighter who you can bend to your will.

If the set was only 1 or 2 frames then I would be fine I think, but 6 frames is too much for retro gaming like classic NES side scrollers. 6 frames is definitely a bit too much for local fighting play since that eliminates the ability to see the frame start up of many moves, especially if you're going to be playing local. Although if you're playing local, then your opponent is at the same disadvantage you are. Too bad I never got into any of the music based games, otherwise I'd offer some input on that. Funny thing is, 6 frames is perfectly playable on games like Darksiders and a bunch of other games I've been playing on Steam recently, even Dark Souls feels ok.
sodaboy581's Avatar sodaboy581 12:41 PM 04-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post


If the set was only 1 or 2 frames then I would be fine I think, but 6 frames is too much for retro gaming like classic NES side scrollers. 6 frames is definitely a bit too much for local fighting play since that eliminates the ability to see the frame start up of many moves, especially if you're going to be playing local. Although if you're playing local, then your opponent is at the same disadvantage you are. Too bad I never got into any of the music based games, otherwise I'd offer some input on that. Funny thing is, 6 frames is perfectly playable on games like Darksiders and a bunch of other games I've been playing on Steam recently, even Dark Souls feels ok.
I said exactly this, as well, earlier regarding games like Megaman (Platformer)

Timing jumps, evading quick bullets, and boss fights are much nastier than they should be on a TV that has high input lag.

Oh, speaking of evading quick bullets, don't even try one of those bullet hell shooters (Like the Touhou series) on a TV with high input lag (video delay). You're just asking to throw your controller in frustration. ( Basically, don't play this style of game on this TV: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nb5Ohbt1Sg )
Moonchilde's Avatar Moonchilde 12:52 PM 04-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by sodaboy581 View Post

I said exactly this, as well, earlier regarding games like Megaman (Platformer)

Timing jumps, evading quick bullets, and boss fights are much nastier than they should be on a TV that has high input lag.

Oh, speaking of evading quick bullets, don't even try one of those bullet hell shooters (Like the Touhou series) on a TV with high input lag (video delay). You're just asking to throw your controller in frustration. ( Basically, don't play this style of game on this TV: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nb5Ohbt1Sg )

I played some Gradius and that was ok, but the biggest difference was on the Ninja Gaiden series. Huge difference, especially in the first 2 because the jumps are very quick unlike 3 which had a much floatier jump. The game also has many insta-spawn enemies, so they can also be a pain in the ass to deal with, although knowing the pattern ahead of time it isn't such a problem to adjust. Castlevania was also a bit different than on CRT, less buttery smooth, and also less punishing than Ninja Gaiden for the additional input lag. BTW I also played some WipeOut and it was ok too. Must be a 3D thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

For those who are concerned about the input lag measuring far worse than on last year's model; it might help if all of you would convey your disappointment to Panasonic, and ask them why that has happened; and let them know that it is the one thing that will stop you from keeping the sets. That might get their attention. Also ask the vendors to lodge their complaints, since they do not want to have to deal with a lot of returns. Demand a prompt fix or else.

This is good advice. Too bad Panasonic's Contact form doesn't really cover our complaints.
headlesschickens's Avatar headlesschickens 02:13 PM 04-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by wattheF View Post

Ok so what does that mean for normal viewing content? Since I won't ever sit there and watch a test pattern I'm not sure how much this should worry me? Unless it is a bad sign of something that could pop up in normal content.

Have you seen any evidence of issues with normal content?

I actually am a bit concerned about ABL function. Mostly as it pertains to watching hockey. Some plasma's struggle with fluctuating brightness issues with hockey.

Has anyone watched any hockey to test for issues? Please note I am not talking about the photographers flashes & strobes at the arena that can be seen on all TV's, but rather unnatural jumps in brightness of the whole screen in noticeable steps or pops.

The 50 models had NO issues with this (Samsung plasma's do) so I am expecting (hoping) no issues with the ST60's.

Anything you can let me know about this is appreciated.

Does the same thing to my GT50. Seems to me that it's less of an issue with ABL and more an issue with this pattern compromising some of the video processing systems. At least with the 2012 models there was a certain amount of sharpness processing you couldn't disable, and images like this gave it trouble. Made most of the test images at lagom.nl useless on the TVs. The dithering and eventual double image it produces are likely a side effect of the processing algorithms not being able to figure out what to do with this image.

This shouldn't have any impact on real world usage. Unless you found the XX50's to be compromised because of their video processing, I doubt you'll run into any related problems with the XX60 series. I certainly doubt that Panasonic would allow their 2013 models to display brightness pops considering that they were the only plasma TV in 2012 that had a fairly smooth ABL curve when measured and graphed.

For some unrelated fun, put that pattern up full screen on a regular computer monitor and see how long you can stare at it before you give up! Don't let your eyes blur, that's cheating.
TV4Sooner's Avatar TV4Sooner 02:21 PM 04-08-2013
Is it possible that a firmware update for the ST60 could lower input lag at all? Have firmware updates ever improved input lag before? I know a software update can only do so much, but even a 20ms improvement would seem to help the ST60.
Looke89's Avatar Looke89 02:21 PM 04-08-2013
I own an European P42ST60 and I haven't noticed any lag on PS3 games; so far I have tested Fifa 13, Uncharted 3, Red Dead Redemption and GTA IV. All of them work superb. I don't play FPS' at all though, and the difference could be visible in this genre of games.
El Matadurr's Avatar El Matadurr 02:44 PM 04-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatal One View Post

If I have the time, I will try some input lag testing on my US spec 50" ST60 this evening or next.
Highly looking forward to any results you find (U.S. model!!!). I'm one of the few here that are also coming from an ST30 which had negligible input lag. I am pretty sensitive to that stuff, as I play Halo 4 with my hallmate online. We have a very low ping (5ms average), so any lag is instantly noticeable. Interesting that the xx60 models this year have Game mode as an option, rather than a whole picture mode. Game mode on the ST30 looked puke-awful!

P.S. If anyone here happens to have an S60 I'm looking to see some lag measurements there too. Intuitively, since it's more bare-bones, it might perform just as well as the ST30 I used to have. If there's a noticeable discrepancy, and the picture quality/motion performance of the S60 is better than my ST30, then I'll pass on the ST60. 3D/Internet Suite/Writing on the screen with a pen is completely unimportant to me.
Stump909's Avatar Stump909 02:49 PM 04-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Looke89 View Post

I own an European P42ST60 and I haven't noticed any lag on PS3 games; so far I have tested Fifa 13, Uncharted 3, Red Dead Redemption and GTA IV. All of them work superb. I don't play FPS' at all though, and the difference could be visible in this genre of games.

FIFA would be more noticeable than an FPS. No trouble with maintaining possession?
AdamHD's Avatar AdamHD 02:49 PM 04-08-2013
Just got a call from my local Video Only. They got in some 60" VT60's today. Hopefully going to go check one out after work. Hopefully I can get a good side by side comparison of the ST60 and VT60 to help me decide between the two. Either way, I could not find an official VT60 thread, and I just wanted to let everyone know those were hitting stores now!
Stump909's Avatar Stump909 02:50 PM 04-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Matadurr View Post

Highly looking forward to any results you find (U.S. model!!!). I'm one of the few here that are also coming from an ST30 which had negligible input lag. I am pretty sensitive to that stuff, as I play Halo 4 with my hallmate online. We have a very low ping (5ms average), so any lag is instantly noticeable. Interesting that the xx60 models this year have Game mode as an option, rather than a whole picture mode. Game mode on the ST30 looked puke-awful!

P.S. If anyone here happens to have an S60 I'm looking to see some lag measurements there too. Intuitively, since it's more bare-bones, it might perform just as well as the ST30 I used to have. If there's a noticeable discrepancy, and the picture quality/motion performance of the S60 is better than my ST30, then I'll pass on the ST60. 3D/Internet Suite/Writing on the screen with a pen is completely unimportant to me.

It won't be that noticeable in Halo. Network lag tears that game apart. TV latency not so much.
Looke89's Avatar Looke89 02:54 PM 04-08-2013
Not at all, works like a charm. Players respond simultaneously with the press of the button, or at least it feels like that. smile.gif
Moonchilde's Avatar Moonchilde 03:02 PM 04-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Matadurr View Post

Highly looking forward to any results you find (U.S. model!!!). I'm one of the few here that are also coming from an ST30 which had negligible input lag. I am pretty sensitive to that stuff, as I play Halo 4 with my hallmate online. We have a very low ping (5ms average), so any lag is instantly noticeable. Interesting that the xx60 models this year have Game mode as an option, rather than a whole picture mode. Game mode on the ST30 looked puke-awful!

P.S. If anyone here happens to have an S60 I'm looking to see some lag measurements there too. Intuitively, since it's more bare-bones, it might perform just as well as the ST30 I used to have. If there's a noticeable discrepancy, and the picture quality/motion performance of the S60 is better than my ST30, then I'll pass on the ST60. 3D/Internet Suite/Writing on the screen with a pen is completely unimportant to me.

My tests were on a US model.
supermandlb's Avatar supermandlb 03:13 PM 04-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

My tests were on a US model.

Maybe I missed it, but have you tested the ST60's input lag?? I believe El Matadurr was referring to you testing the ST60 model
fahrenheit's Avatar fahrenheit 03:13 PM 04-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by TV4Sooner View Post

Is it possible that a firmware update for the ST60 could lower input lag at all? Have firmware updates ever improved input lag before? I know a software update can only do so much, but even a 20ms improvement would seem to help the ST60.

Well if we don't know what is responsible for the lag, then we don't know what will fix it.

Keep in mind that I've got nothing to base the following on and don't know whether this is occuring with the 2013 models. Owners will be able to correct me if this is off-base....

I'd speculate that it may be because of how My Smart Home is implemented.
On my GT50, the internet-based functions are not a service that is running in the background, it has to load when it is called. I also notice on my friends ST50 that this process is even slower (slower SoC). If on the 2013 models this process is always on (running in the background), then that would require additional processing power and/or buffering that could be responsible for the lag. The upper models (GT60 and beyond) have a more powerful SoC and its likely that they can handle this processing without having any net-affect on input lag.
If this were the reason for the lag, then Panasonic would need to (in firmware) disable the My Smart Home functionality when Game mode is chosen.

Just out of interest, it would be good if an owner could report what happens with game mode enabled and they call up My Smart Home. Does game mode stay enabled or not?
Phatal One's Avatar Phatal One 03:13 PM 04-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Matadurr View Post

Highly looking forward to any results you find (U.S. model!!!). I'm one of the few here that are also coming from an ST30 which had negligible input lag. I am pretty sensitive to that stuff, as I play Halo 4 with my hallmate online. We have a very low ping (5ms average), so any lag is instantly noticeable. Interesting that the xx60 models this year have Game mode as an option, rather than a whole picture mode. Game mode on the ST30 looked puke-awful!

I will run a couple of tests. First will be basic calibration of GH3. Second will be the delta between my average response time to 50 instances of a reaction time test on my Dell U3011 vs the same on the ST60. I know the U3011 has an input lag of around 24ms. In a perfect world, the GH3 calibration should equal the delta between the U3011 and ST60 + 24ms. Said test could then be repeated as needed on different settings for the ST60.

Any suggestions as to what test configurations to run on the ST60? To get the best results I'd like to run the reaction time tests as close as I could so that any human / environmental factors are minimized. Ideally I'd love to automate the testing instead of having to click a button 50 times. smile.gif
p3Orion's Avatar p3Orion 03:16 PM 04-08-2013
I have a request. For those that have an ST60 if you would please watch some soccer and hockey and report back if you see any vertical streaks visible on the screen when the camera pans. That was an annoying issue on the ST50 for me.
airgas1998's Avatar airgas1998 03:39 PM 04-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by supermandlb View Post

Please do, I am interested to see the results!! I play a lot of COD games online and I have not noticed any lag with my 50" ST60. With that said, I do have a very fast internet connection. But, as far as input lag... I really haven't noticed any. - As a point of reference, this is my home internet speed. Not sure, but having internet speeds this fast, maybe I just don't notice imput lag??

damn that's slow...wink.gif...gotta love the boonies....biggrin.gif
supermandlb's Avatar supermandlb 03:43 PM 04-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by airgas1998 View Post

damn that's slow...wink.gif...gotta love the boonies....biggrin.gif

I know, right... It's hard to deal with:)
El Matadurr's Avatar El Matadurr 04:02 PM 04-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

My tests were on a US model.
Whoops! My bad, for some reason I was thinking you were xcloudx82, who was testing a EU model. Great to see your info too, it's noted, and I'm sure I would notice the difference in what you're describing.
sigmaace01's Avatar sigmaace01 04:44 PM 04-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by p3Orion View Post

I have a request. For those that have an ST60 if you would please watch some soccer and hockey and report back if you see any vertical streaks visible on the screen when the camera pans. That was an annoying issue on the ST50 for me.

I've been noticing very quick flashes watching hockey. It's almost like cameras flashing in the arena, but they're not there while replaying in slow motion.
openwheelracing's Avatar openwheelracing 06:09 PM 04-08-2013
Anyone care about picture quality? All I see is input lag discussion....
supermandlb's Avatar supermandlb 06:16 PM 04-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post

Anyone care about picture quality? All I see is input lag discussion....

Picture quality is a 9.5 out of 10. Excellent picture... It is everything you would expect from a Panasonic Plasma
El Matadurr's Avatar El Matadurr 06:46 PM 04-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post

Anyone care about picture quality? All I see is input lag discussion....
Most people already know that Panasonic's plasmas have been getting better every year. I remember that my "lowly" ST30 was phenomenal for me after calibration. Increases in recent models though are incremental (a bit better brightness, black level, etc.). What's concerning is that the input lag on the ST60 is known to be worse than the ST50 and ST30. Just how much it actually affects gameplay is what everyone on here is trying to discuss.

I'm sure I'm not the only one here who wants to get an ST60 set up (which will undoubtedly provide a terrific picture) only to find out that the input lag is unacceptable for even moderately competitive games. Then add the frustration and expense of repackaging the TV, taking it to your store (or worse, paying return shipping to an out-of-state store), and paying a restocking fee because there technically is nothing wrong with it.

It's a shame the GT series isn't being sold in America this year. HDTVtest noted that input lag is non-existant compared to the ST60.
Atty's Avatar Atty 06:59 PM 04-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by p3Orion View Post

I have a request. For those that have an ST60 if you would please watch some soccer and hockey and report back if you see any vertical streaks visible on the screen when the camera pans. That was an annoying issue on the ST50 for me.
Link me to a video and I'll put it on my TV and run it. I'll be plugging my laptop in via HDMI later to watch some stuff.

I can report that Formula 1 races with the camera panning after a 200mph car does not give any sort of picture issue.
Tags: Panasonic Tc P55st60 55 Inch 1080p 600hz 3d Smart Plasma Hdtv , Panasonic Tc P60st60 60 Inch 3d Smart Plasma Hdtv , Panasonic Tc P65st60 65 Inch 3d Smart Plasma Hdtv , Panasonic Viera Tc P55vt50 , Sony Bravia Xbr52hx909 52 Lcd Tv Direct Led
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