Official Panasonic TC-PxxST60 Series thread - Page 41 - AVS Forum
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post #1201 of 12915 Old 04-08-2013, 05:59 PM
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Noob here. After much anguish at the choices, I made up my mind. The media room is under construction right now with wall mount Polk speakers. I ordered the 60" ST60 from Sears yesterday and have a delivery date of 26 April. After reading all of the 41 pages here (except for lag times - I'm not a gamer :-) I think I have made a good choice. I hope so. I have lower end Panasonic plasmas and have been delighted with PQ, which is all I truly care about. I'll let you know what I find after delivery. Man, that's gonna be a long time from now!!!
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post #1202 of 12915 Old 04-08-2013, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Atty View Post

Link me to a video and I'll put it on my TV and run it. I'll be plugging my laptop in via HDMI later to watch some stuff.

I can report that Formula 1 races with the camera panning after a 200mph car does not give any sort of picture issue.
Good to hear from a fellow F1 fan. smile.gif Go Scuderia Ferrari !

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post #1203 of 12915 Old 04-08-2013, 06:36 PM
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Well here are my preliminary results from my lag time tests:

I ran 50 iterations of the Human Benchmark Reaction Time Test. Unless noted otherwise, all tests on the ST60 were run with MPEG NR - OFF, Motion Smoother - OFF, and Video NR - LOW.

Control Test:
Dell U3011 - Avg 275ms
Known Input lag - 24ms
My Estimated lag - 251ms

Tests
Test 1: ST60 w/ Pixel Direct On - Game Mode Off - Pixel Orbiter On - Overscan On - Avg 347.0ms - Est. Display Lag 96.0ms
Test 2: ST60 w/ Pixel Direct Off - Game Mode Off - Pixel Orbiter On - Overscan On - Avg 322.5ms - Est. Display Lag 71.5ms
Test 3: ST60 w/ Pixel Direct Off - Game Mode On - Pixel Orbiter On - Overscan On - Avg 320.0ms - Est. Display Lag 69.0ms
Test 4: ST60 w/ Pixel Direct Off - Game Mode On - Pixel Orbiter On - Overscan On - Avg 315.0ms - Est. Display Lag 64.0ms
Test 5: ST60 w/ Pixel Direct Off - Game Mode On - Pixel Orbiter Auto - Overscan Off - Avg 305.2ms - Est. Display Lag 54.2ms
Test 6: ST60 w/ Test 5 Settings - Video NR Off - Avg 300.8ms - Est. Display Lag 49.8ms

Repeat Control Test:
Dell U3011 - Avg 279.9ms

I ran the 3rd test a second time because my animals decided to provide an unneeded distraction towards the end. Since there is a human and environmental element here I would say the range on these results is at least +/- 5ms and possibly add another +/-5ms b/c of the wireless mouse on my HTPC. I will retest with a wired mouse later but surprisingly paying attention long enough to click 250 times is somewhat fatiguing at the end of the work day! tongue.gif

Overall, I can say I was never able to match my times on the Dell U3011. I achieved my best times with game mode on and my own individual variability may be skewing the results of game mode a bit. At this point, I can say pixel direct appears to be quite intensive in processing requirements. It basically adds the entire input lag of the U3011 to the existing base panel lag. Game mode seems to be hit or miss in my results but I believe it is worth at least 10ms of processing improvement. I still have to finish the Guitar Hero calibration and would like to see if I can eliminate some of my own variability from the results above. The only thing I can definitively conclude from this limited data set is that the display and firmware in its current state has more than 2x the lag of the U3011 (which is not exactly a gaming monitor).

I'm willing to rerun some of these test in case I have some settings wrong or if there are other combos that may yield better results.

Updated:
Added Test #5 to account for pixel orbiter setting and updated Test 1-4 descriptions accordingly.
Reran the control test at the end of the night just to make sure Test #5 results weren't due to better response time on my part.
Added Video NR settings as suggested by Supermandlb
Added Test #6 to test the Video NR setting.
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post #1204 of 12915 Old 04-08-2013, 06:36 PM
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Only 1 65st60 left on amazon (Cleveland Plasma)!! eek.gif
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post #1205 of 12915 Old 04-08-2013, 07:15 PM
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Na, just one listed, thanks for noticing.......
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post #1206 of 12915 Old 04-08-2013, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatal One View Post

I'm willing to rerun some of these test in case I have some settings wrong or if there are other combos that may yield better results.
Well first off, thank you for putting your reaction time to the test 250 times. Assuming your method is even roughly in the ballpark as DisplayLag.com's tests (which, is a pretty huge assumption, I know), that's easily double the lag as the ST30. Those sensitive to lag would surely notice that.

This does beg the question though--one that would be great for Panasonic to answer--with everything turned off and game mode activated, why is this year's model slower than previous years' models? Does Murphy's law have a backtracking algorithm?

To anyone else with an ST60 willing to do quasi-scientific tests like Phatal One has done, feel free to add to the data pool. The more numbers, the better!
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post #1207 of 12915 Old 04-08-2013, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Matadurr View Post

Well first off, thank you for putting your reaction time to the test 250 times. Assuming your method is even roughly in the ballpark as DisplayLag.com's tests (which, is a pretty huge assumption, I know), that's easily double the lag as the ST30. Those sensitive to lag would surely notice that.

This does beg the question though--one that would be great for Panasonic to answer--with everything turned off and game mode activated, why is this year's model slower than previous years' models? Does Murphy's law have a backtracking algorithm?

To anyone else with an ST60 willing to do quasi-scientific tests like Phatal One has done, feel free to add to the data pool. The more numbers, the better!

That is a head scratcher isn't it. Could the improved sharpness people have been reporting be the cause due to increased image processing?
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post #1208 of 12915 Old 04-08-2013, 07:42 PM
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Honestly, I think there is some other display processing going on that I have not disabled yet. One item that caught my eye that would likely add to the input lag is a setting called pixel orbiter. It's settings are either ON or AUTO. Depending on how many of these background processes you can actually disable, you can slowly chip away at the input lag.
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post #1209 of 12915 Old 04-08-2013, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbmannc View Post

That is a head scratcher isn't it. Could the improved sharpness people have been reporting be the cause due to increased image processing?
There's a parallel discussion going on in the S60 thread about input lag (that I hope continues with more data). Quoting bobbvis, here's three speculative but sound ideas as to why the ST60 is slower than previous models:
Quote:
st60 apps constantly running in background possibly leading to double or triple lag vs st50
st50's apps had to be loaded up prior to use possibly leading to the lower lag
euro model gt60 has tested with less lag but has the faster processor chip
These make a lot of sense, and if true, the S60 should show much improved lag performance due to it only having a few blue-chip apps.
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post #1210 of 12915 Old 04-08-2013, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatal One View Post

Honestly, I think there is some other display processing going on that I have not disabled yet. One item that caught my eye that would likely add to the input lag is a setting called pixel orbiter. It's settings are either ON or AUTO. Depending on how many of these background processes you can actually disable, you can slowly chip away at the input lag.
What??? You can't disable the pixel orbiter on this year's model? Now that's just crazy. I wonder how many other settings have ON or AUTO (a.k.a. still on). confused.gif
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post #1211 of 12915 Old 04-08-2013, 08:01 PM
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Na, just one listed, thanks for noticing.......

Have you guys got your hands on the Samsung f5500? If so how does it stack up to the st60?
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post #1212 of 12915 Old 04-08-2013, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Matadurr View Post

What??? You can't disable the pixel orbiter on this year's model? Now that's just crazy. I wonder how many other settings have ON or AUTO (a.k.a. still on). confused.gif

For the heck of it, I decided to try a 50 sample test run using my best settings from the first 4 tests and turning overscan to OFF and pixel orbiter to AUTO. That test came in at 305.2ms. nearly a 10ms improvement. I can't say it is outside the margin of error but the results were obviously more consistent. I will update my post with the additional test.
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post #1213 of 12915 Old 04-08-2013, 08:14 PM
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There is one setting that I see that might add to input lag, "Video NR"



Was that set to OFF or AUTO when you ran your test?

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post #1214 of 12915 Old 04-08-2013, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supermandlb View Post

There is one setting that I see that might add to input lag, "Video NR"



Was that set to OFF or AUTO when you ran your test?

Good catch! My settings were with Video NR on LOW. I will update my test descriptions. I will try to repeat Tests 4 & 5 tomorrow to see if turning it to OFF helps.

Edit:
Actually, I went ahead and reran test #5 with the Video NR setting changed to OFF. I have updated my original post with Test #6
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post #1215 of 12915 Old 04-08-2013, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post

Anyone care about picture quality? All I see is input lag discussion....

I agree... there should be a separate thread dedicated to input lag for this TV.
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post #1216 of 12915 Old 04-08-2013, 08:28 PM
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I agree... there should be a separate thread dedicated to input lag for this TV.

Someone brought that up way back. I like this thread because ppl are knowledgeable friendly and courteous... But the lag talk needs it's own thread I will never play a video game and y'all are beating the topic to death.
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post #1217 of 12915 Old 04-08-2013, 08:28 PM
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I agree... there should be a separate thread dedicated to input lag for this TV.
I brought that up about a week ago.

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post #1218 of 12915 Old 04-08-2013, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by vic_0002 View Post

I agree... there should be a separate thread dedicated to input lag for this TV.

I agree. I understand people are concerned about input lag on this set, but keep hoping (every day) that the discussion will move along and focus on other aspects (PQ, features, 3D performance, overall comparisons vs other models, etc) of the ST60.
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post #1219 of 12915 Old 04-08-2013, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by vic_0002 View Post

I agree... there should be a separate thread dedicated to input lag for this TV.

When picture quality has already been established as "better than last years models" then people tend to move on from the basics.
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post #1220 of 12915 Old 04-08-2013, 08:39 PM
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Have you guys got your hands on the Samsung f5500? If so how does it stack up to the st60?
We did get the Samsung's in, No chance to test them just yet........

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post #1221 of 12915 Old 04-08-2013, 08:48 PM
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I would say the input lag is a valid concern if you intend to use the PDP for gaming. Given that most people just don't buy a new display on a whim, this is an important issue related to the ST60. As such, if it produces meaningful discussion on how to minimize it for this panel, then it certainly has a place in this thread. Just because the questions don't interest you does not mean you should belittle the concerns of other posters. Frankly, input lag does not matter to me. However, I am more than willing to help others try to objectively determine if this panel can meet their needs. Once a question has been answered or a general consensus has been reached you will find the conversation will naturally move on. Plus, it is not like we can compare picture quality and other settings to the VT60 or ZT60 yet.
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post #1222 of 12915 Old 04-08-2013, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

We did get the Samsung's in, No chance to test them just yet........

I would love some comparison if you could, there is zero info out there about the f5500 specifically... since its the tv next from the top of sammys lineup and the st60s seemingly direct competitor I'm sure ppl are interested
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post #1223 of 12915 Old 04-08-2013, 08:50 PM
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Phatal one I appreciate your enthusiasm and work on the input lag issue. There appears to be cure for the slightly higher lag. It sounds like a firmware update may resolve the issue all together.
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post #1224 of 12915 Old 04-08-2013, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post

When picture quality has already been established as "better than last years models" then people tend to move on from the basics.
I guess it is understandable that the forum conversation has moved to focus on (what seems to be) the only major "negative" associated with the ST60, and people trying to find a "fix" for the input lag. I have a feeling that's going to be the major focus until people start receiving and talking about the larger sizes (60" and 65"), and discuss reviews that come out from the big sites like CNET. I am just personally excited (and ready) for that to happen.
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post #1225 of 12915 Old 04-08-2013, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatal One View Post

I would say the input lag is a valid concern if you intend to use the PDP for gaming. Given that most people just don't buy a new display on a whim, this is an important issue related to the ST60. As such, if it produces meaningful discussion on how to minimize it for this panel, then it certainly has a place in this thread. Just because the questions don't interest you does not mean you should belittle the concerns of other posters. Frankly, input lag does not matter to me. However, I am more than willing to help others try to objectively determine if this panel can meet their needs. Once a question has been answered or a general consensus has been reached you will find the conversation will naturally move on. Plus, it is not like we can compare picture quality and other settings to the VT60 or ZT60 yet.

I think the input lag is very valid however you are right it doesn't interest me as I don't game but if I had one specific issue that I was willing to discuss for days on end and monopolize the thread I would make a thread dedicated to my issue. At this point ill bet there are members who CARE about lag and are pretty over it by now.
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post #1226 of 12915 Old 04-08-2013, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post

When picture quality has already been established as "better than last years models" then people tend to move on from the basics.

Hasn't input lag already been established as "worse than last years models"?

Hope this doesn't turn into the new "rising blacks" issue for 2013.
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post #1227 of 12915 Old 04-08-2013, 09:20 PM
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I don't think it is anywhere near a "rising blacks" level of seriousness. One night of tinkering has shown me that there are a number of settings to help reduce the issue. Hopefully there are ways to further improve performance for those who care, as the ST60 is pretty strong in other areas. Eventually I will get around to testing 3D and some other things but input lag was a bit easier to design a decent and quick test for after a long day at work than to calibrate various picture modes. Plus, until my ZT60 gets here I will not have another 3D capable display to compare it to. tongue.gif
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post #1228 of 12915 Old 04-08-2013, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by AdamHD View Post

Just got a call from my local Video Only. They got in some 60" VT60's today. Hopefully going to go check one out after work. Hopefully I can get a good side by side comparison of the ST60 and VT60 to help me decide between the two. Either way, I could not find an official VT60 thread, and I just wanted to let everyone know those were hitting stores now!

I'd love to hear what you thought of them. I went to my Video Only in CA today, but they had no VT60's. They did quote me a very nice price for a 60VT60 when it comes in though, much lower than I was expecting it to be right off the bat.

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post #1229 of 12915 Old 04-08-2013, 10:18 PM
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I'm surprised people are upset about the input lag discussion in this thead? What else would you like us to discuss? Don't we already have about 40 pages of people saying the set looks very good?
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post #1230 of 12915 Old 04-08-2013, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatal One View Post

I don't think it is anywhere near a "rising blacks" level of seriousness. One night of tinkering has shown me that there are a number of settings to help reduce the issue. Hopefully there are ways to further improve performance for those who care, as the ST60 is pretty strong in other areas. Eventually I will get around to testing 3D and some other things but input lag was a bit easier to design a decent and quick test for after a long day at work than to calibrate various picture modes. Plus, until my ZT60 gets here I will not have another 3D capable display to compare it to. tongue.gif
Regardless of what other forum members say, even your quick-and-dirty tests are helping isolate what helps to reduce the input lag (I'm also sure they're helping anyone happening to google the same problem, as this thread is one of the first that pops up when searching for that).

I don't get the negativity in here, because none of the previous posts about input lag actually gave factual DATA that could be taken as less subjective. We all know the picture quality on these TVs comes in at different levels of stellar. Hell, like I previously said, I was blown away by my tiny ST30 two years ago. But a problem with a set that has gotten worse from previous generations is something that is worthy to discuss here and attempt to mitigate. Does it need its own thread? Possibly, maybe an "S60 v. ST60 Lag" discussion should be formed soon.

Never underestimate the power of the curious consumer. I managed two FAQs over two years at HDJ that solved so many seemingly vague simply through other users testing things out. That's the purpose of a forum anyway, to help others out who need help. If you don't want to read about it, gloss over anything with the word "lag" in it. cool.gif
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