Official Panasonic TC-PxxST60 Series thread - Page 455 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 06-26-2016, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post
Yes, depending on which setting you use, you'll have to re-adjust 'brightness' (i.e. black level) and color saturation.


Blu-ray discs are mastered 16-235. As far as the best results, you'll have to experiment. I have the S60 and get the best results sending RGB using '1080p direct' mode. I experimented using 0-255, as my Blu-ray player can output it, but I didn't seem to quite be able to get results I liked.


BTW, how much better is the ST60 vs. the S60 in your view?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post
Yes, depending on which setting you use, you'll have to re-adjust 'brightness' (i.e. black level) and color saturation.

Blu-ray discs are mastered 16-235. As far as the best results, you'll have to experiment. I have the S60 and get the best results sending RGB using '1080p direct' mode. I experimented using 0-255, as my Blu-ray player can output it, but I didn't seem to quite be able to get results I liked.
After a lot of reading and experimenting I have a better understanding of this issue, but still frustrated. A solution that seems to work is to set the display on 0-255, HTPC on 0-255, and madVR on 0-255. Disabling pixel direct on the TV eliminates banding on the greyscale ramp.
If I set the display on 16-235, HTPC on 0-255 (thereby clipping the windows desktop), and madVR on 16-235, video plays correctly at the black end (17 is last visible shade), however at the white end, shades are visible up to the 250s. I don't understand this. Further there is no banding on the greyscale ramp whether or not pixel direct is on.
Maybe someone can explain the mechanics of this.

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Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post
BTW, how much better is the ST60 vs. the S60 in your view?
I compared them side by side and the S60 was very similar. Can't make a true judgment since the S60 was not calibrated. The ST60 had more depth to the picture, which might have been a function of sharpness. I don't think you're missing out substantially with the S60. I just wanted it because I need the anti-reflective coating.
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Old 06-26-2016, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by remzoid View Post
After a lot of reading and experimenting I have a better understanding of this issue, but still frustrated. A solution that seems to work is to set the display on 0-255, HTPC on 0-255, and madVR on 0-255. Disabling pixel direct on the TV eliminates banding on the greyscale ramp.
Pixel direct does indeed cause banding and other artifacts on my ST60. I stopped using it because of this.

Quote:
If I set the display on 16-235, HTPC on 0-255 (thereby clipping the windows desktop), and madVR on 16-235, video plays correctly at the black end (17 is last visible shade), however at the white end, shades are visible up to the 250s. I don't understand this. Further there is no banding on the greyscale ramp whether or not pixel direct is on.
Maybe someone can explain the mechanics of this.
This is passthrough mode for video, and it's what I've always used as I don't care about clipping the desktop, which has no adverse effects for the limited way I use the desktop on my HTPC. There is no expansion from Video Levels (16-235) to PC Levels (0-255), so you see shades above 234, AKA "Whiter Than White" or WTW, and you will find if you increase Brightness on the TV, shades below 17 will become visible, AKA "Blacker Than Black" or BTB. Of course, I'm talking about the bars on pattern sets like AVS HD 709. You should set the TV's Brightness so that 17 is just visible and everything below is not, and you should adjust Contrast to get the light output you desire. You won't be able to get rid of 235 and above on these sets, no matter how high you crank up Contrast, and arguably, you shouldn't want to. See the Spears and Munsil Contrast, Brightness, and Color Space articles here for more:

http://handforgedvideo.com/2nd-edition-articles/

Oh, and despite video being encoded in 16-235, it can legally contain values in 1-254. That's how BTB and WTW can exist. The difference is, there is no legal content below 17, but 234 and above can contain legal overshoots. Spears and Munsil go into more detail.

Quote:
I compared them side by side and the S60 was very similar. Can't make a true judgment since the S60 was not calibrated. The ST60 had more depth to the picture, which might have been a function of sharpness. I don't think you're missing out substantially with the S60. I just wanted it because I need the anti-reflective coating.
Sharpness should normally be set so that none is added on any set, including these, because adding sharpness just introduces ringing artifacts. The ST60 has a better AR filter and better blacks than the S60, and that could give a better sense of depth.
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Old 06-26-2016, 12:40 PM
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I did some more experimenting and using '1080p pixel direct' mode I'm getting a little better results sending 0-255 RGB than sending 16-235 RGB. There is a little better shadow detail, smoother gradients, and blacks are less crushed. I did my experiments before without using '1080p pixel direct' and got significantly different results. For one thing 'brightness' (i.e. black level) had to be re-adjusted dramatically, but now it does not using '1080p pixel direct'. The same 'brightness' setting yields the correct black level for both. I have the Oppo BDP-103 and I'm sending everything RGB-PC 1080/60p, and I'm getting great results. My set now looks better than I've ever been able to get it.


I also found, at least on the S60 with the firmware I have, that there is slight amount of artificially added EE to the image that can't be eliminated, where as running it in '1080p pixel direct' there is none. It appears the '1080p pixel direct' mode is legit in that is doesn't further process the image its receiving. However, when I first bought the set, this was definitely not the case, as the direct mode added a nasty amount of EE where it was totally unusable; however, they fixed this via a firmware update. I think they did with the ST60 as well.
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Old 06-26-2016, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by sawfish View Post
Pixel direct does indeed cause banding and other artifacts on my ST60. I stopped using it because of this.

Do you have the latest firmware installed? The pixel direct mode was supposedly fixed with a firmware update. I think even Chad B. recommends using it for the best results.
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Old 06-26-2016, 04:14 PM
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The way to get the smoothest gradient from an HTPC if you have an Nvidia card and are using MadVR (like you should be), is to output 8bit limited. I know that sounds weird, but someone on Doom9 did some pretty extensive testing, and after doing the same, I also came to the same conclusion.
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Old 06-26-2016, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post
Do you have the latest firmware installed? The pixel direct mode was supposedly fixed with a firmware update. I think even Chad B. recommends using it for the best results.
Yes, I install firmware updates when they become available. The problem the first firmware update fixed was the extreme sharpening that was applied when 1080p Pixel Direct was enabled, unless "HDMI Content Type" was also set to "Photo", which was the workaround. Were any other improvements made? I know it still causes banding in real content when the TV is set to 0-255, which is precisely when the feature would be valuable and appropriate, when receiving true 4:4:4 signals, like a PC desktop. I've not seen any improvements to video outside of burst test patterns, some of which it makes worse when the TV is set to 16-235. For example, the 2PPC Chroma Burst pattern from Spears and Munsil becomes much brighter than it should be when the source is my Sony BD-S1500, but it seems to work properly for my PC as source. That's the one discrepancy I've noticed between my PC and BD player.
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Old 06-26-2016, 05:55 PM
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Regarding pixel direct, for what it's worth here, I'll chime in with some experiences I had when first setting up my 60ST60 (in late 2013).


My main source (outside of TV apps) is my HTPC, and I bought this TV specifically to replace an older Panasonic that was less than 1080P resolution, and I always with it had issues getting the TV display (desktop or video) exactly centered and scaled to the screen. So I bought my nice new 60ST60 and started configuring.


While the picture was beautiful, I could tell something was "off." Eventually I ran a checkerboard pattern and saw banding (with pixel direct on). This was odd because if I set the checker pattern as a static desktop (at 1080p resolution), the checkers were perfectly visible with no banding.


Eventually I tracked down the problem to being that Windows Media Center was outputting 1919 columns by 1080 rows, rather than 1920 columns by 1080 rows. I searched high and low for a fix, and others confirmed that they saw the same thing, but a fix was never found. WMC was dropping the rightmost column entirely, and stretching the remaining 1919 resulting in mismatch. This is a shocking error on WMC's part, and dozens of others (with other TVs etc.) have confirmed it. However, most people wouldn't notice it.


I switched to using MPC-HC to actually display the video (as an external player from Media Browser Classic, now Emby for Windows Media Center). MPC-HC displays the proper resolution and there are no banding artifacts.


I've got everything set up using limited output so that I get flashing with test patterns 17-234 (ish) and I can see color gradient details well. Things look quite natural to me. I always worry my set will die and I'll need to get an LED set and hate it.


The pixel direct setting is proper to use if you are using an HTPC, and should not have problems with banding if you've got resolution / scaling set correctly. There was definitely a learning curve getting other settings (gamma, brightness, etc.) dialed in. I didn't spend money on getting it calibrated, as I found the process of working on it a fun diversion and I learned a lot in the process.


Good luck!

Sometimes, I see dead pixels...
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Old 06-26-2016, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by sawfish View Post
This is passthrough mode for video, and it's what I've always used as I don't care about clipping the desktop, which has no adverse effects for the limited way I use the desktop on my HTPC. There is no expansion from Video Levels (16-235) to PC Levels (0-255), so you see shades above 234, AKA "Whiter Than White" or WTW, and you will find if you increase Brightness on the TV, shades below 17 will become visible, AKA "Blacker Than Black" or BTB. Of course, I'm talking about the bars on pattern sets like AVS HD 709. You should set the TV's Brightness so that 17 is just visible and everything below is not, and you should adjust Contrast to get the light output you desire. You won't be able to get rid of 235 and above on these sets, no matter how high you crank up Contrast, and arguably, you shouldn't want to.
Thanks, makes sense now. Did not realize these plasmas show WTW naturally.
My paradigm now is to have the TV on 0-255 for normal use (Netflix app, web browsing), and switch to 16-235 when using madVR to achieve passthrough.
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Old 06-26-2016, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by sawfish View Post
Yes, I install firmware updates when they become available. The problem the first firmware update fixed was the extreme sharpening that was applied when 1080p Pixel Direct was enabled, unless "HDMI Content Type" was also set to "Photo", which was the workaround. Were any other improvements made? I know it still causes banding in real content when the TV is set to 0-255, which is precisely when the feature would be valuable and appropriate, when receiving true 4:4:4 signals, like a PC desktop. I've not seen any improvements to video outside of burst test patterns, some of which it makes worse when the TV is set to 16-235. For example, the 2PPC Chroma Burst pattern from Spears and Munsil becomes much brighter than it should be when the source is my Sony BD-S1500, but it seems to work properly for my PC as source. That's the one discrepancy I've noticed between my PC and BD player.

Well, with the Oppo outputting 0-255 RGB I don't see any banding or anomalies using '1080p pixel direct'. In fact -- if anything, I see less banding than if I send 16-235 RGB. Maybe the Oppo just does an exceptional job of doing the conversion, as it does have significantly better video processing and PQ compared to any other player I've owned (including the Sony S790).


Prior to using pixel direct mode, I couldn't get 0-255 to look right at all, despite numerous testing and tweaking.
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Old 06-26-2016, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post
Well, with the Oppo outputting 0-255 RGB I don't see any banding or anomalies using '1080p pixel direct'. In fact -- if anything, I see less banding than if I send 16-235 RGB. Maybe the Oppo just does an exceptional job of doing the conversion, as it does have significantly better video processing and PQ compared to any other player I've owned (including the Sony S790).
It seems to be highly YMMV. I'm using Kodi 15.2 as my PC player, and when it is outputting 16-235, my Nvidia cards produce no banding on the AVS HD 709 grayscale pattern, with or without 1080p Pixel Direct. When I switch Kodi to 0-255, some minor banding appears. When I enable Pixel Direct, banding gets much worse. Again, the card is outputting 0-255, its video options are left at "With the player", and the TV's HDMI/DVI Range is set to whatever Kodi is set to. (This is Kodi 15.2 Isengard using DXVA2.)

My Sony BD-S1500 doesn't support RGB 0-255 output, just RGB 16-235 (with BTB and WTW), so I can't fully test it. Sony dropped the RGB 0-255 option sometime between my old S350 circa 2008 and now. That said, the gradient is smooth on RGB 16-235, and banding does not appear when I enable Pixel Direct, so it's like my PC in 16-235. However, it's unlike the PC in the chroma burst as previously described.

My other two sources are my Apple TV 4 and Fire TV Stick. The ATV4 behaves like the PC for RGB 16-235 and 0-255 output (with iTunes on my PC supplying the mp4 file). The Fire TV Stick apparently isn't sending 4:4:4, as Pixel Direct isn't enabled for it. However, whatever the hell it's outputting has banding.

Quote:
Prior to using pixel direct mode, I couldn't get 0-255 to look right at all, despite numerous testing and tweaking.
That's totally different than my experience. The only noticeably good effect I've ever observed is when looking at things like red text on a blue background. I posted pictures of this back in 2013:

Official ST60 input lag thread

Again, that's desktop output, which is genuine 4:4:4. Video is 4:2:0, and I've never noticed any benefit for it, though I guess theoretically there could be some if the TV degrades things by throwing away what the card or device did and doing its own processing to get things to 4:4:4. I just haven't noticed it.

Last edited by sawfish; 06-26-2016 at 08:19 PM.
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Old 06-27-2016, 02:17 PM
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It seems to be highly YMMV.

Yes, that does seem to be the case. I'd be curious what Chad B. has found in all of his experience with these sets.


I suspect the differences observed are likely due to differences in the video processing of the native format that comes off the Blu-ray discs (16-235, 4:2:0) to that actually sent to the TV. Then there is the further processing done by the TV, except (supposedly) when one enables '1080p pixel direct'.


The Oppo BDP-103 has far and away the best video processing of any player I've owned, though I disable and/or don't use the Qdeo video processing (which is really an artificial enhancement anyway). Those who claim virtually all players produce indistinguishable video quality from one another either aren't paying very close attention or don't have much of a discerning eye for video quality. I only have a 50" set and I can fairly easily see a very significant improvement in color fidelity, i.e. color naturalness and evenness throughout the dynamic range, and a significant improvement in overall image clarity/detail. But it's a pure, perfectly smooth clarity -- not artificially enhanced like a lot of players likely do.


One of the biggest drawbacks of the S60 is there are no fine or 10 point gamma adjustments like on the ST60, so you're stuck with the presets, which on my set at least -- seem to crush blacks a little. Though using/enabling 0-255 RGB (with the Oppo), as I just found out, reduces that crush somewhat.
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Old 06-29-2016, 03:47 AM
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I did some more testing and found that the banding (or clearly visible steps) on the greyscale test pattern using RGB-PC 0-255 with '1080p pixel direct' goes away if I select deep color 30 bit on the Oppo. Though prior I couldn't see any increased banding on actual content anyway. Also, I found that just sending regular RGB 30bit (so-called 'deep color') yields indistinguishable results as above, presumably due to the increased gradation steps to 1024 from 10bit converted video. For now, I've settled on sending RGB 30bit using '1080p pixel direct', and I'm getting great results. No added EE, great level of detail, better shadow detail, pure and even color throughout the dynamic range. Again though, the video processing of the Oppo is spectacularly good. I'm not sure if similar results would be found with other players. My experience with the prior players I had (even the Sony S790) was the video processing left something significant to be desired, and in many cases was poor.
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Old 07-14-2016, 09:35 AM
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Continuing woes with my ST60

A few weeks ago I posted about a problem I had (#13612) regarding the TV shutting down and 5 blinking lights. I started unplugging the TV when I wasn't using it which is about 22 hours a day continuous.
It worked for 3 weeks but now the TV shuts down after about an hour of use and now I am getting 7 blinking lights.
I have white speckling across the screen, the picture occasionally flashes for a brief instant and then sooner or later the TV shuts down and flashes the 7 blinking lights. I might have been mistaken originally when I thought it was 5 blinking lights or it may have changed to 7. Not sure.
Based on the 7 blinking lights it appears that it is an SC board (variously known as a Y-Sustain board, YSUS board, Y-Main board) which I am going to order from Shop Jimmy. Based on the symptoms and the 7 blinking lights I no longer think it is the power board as I originally did.
If anyone has input, again, it would be appreciated. I live in the middle of nowhere and getting a part is hard and getting it installed is harder but my wife and I really love this TV and there are few affordable alternatives to the picture quality of this set.
Here is the part number that I plan on ordering.
TZTNP02UHUU (TNPA5764) SC Board
Thanks!
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Old 07-16-2016, 11:12 AM
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Extended Program Info?

Hello All,

I have an TC-P55ST60. I'm wondering if there is a setting to have the "Info" box display additional program information, when viewing OTA Digital. On my set, I only get the program title (also Res, Frame and Picture Setting). On my buddy's (much cheaper) Samsung, the Info shows program details. On his tele, the Info will also scroll across time, to see what is coming on later, at least on PBS.

Any hope?

Thanks...

No1UKnow
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Old 07-18-2016, 11:40 AM
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Hello All,

I have an TC-P55ST60. I'm wondering if there is a setting to have the "Info" box display additional program information, when viewing OTA Digital. On my set, I only get the program title (also Res, Frame and Picture Setting). On my buddy's (much cheaper) Samsung, the Info shows program details. On his tele, the Info will also scroll across time, to see what is coming on later, at least on PBS.

Any hope?
Nope. Unfortunately the program title is all you get on the ST60 models. (I am OK with that trade-off given the quality of picture for the price I paid for it.)
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Old Today, 02:03 PM
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Thanks!

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Nope. Unfortunately the program title is all you get on the ST60 models. (I am OK with that trade-off given the quality of picture for the price I paid for it.)

Thanks! I appreciate the response, if not the answer
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