Official Panasonic TC-PxxST60 Series thread - Page 456 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #13651 of 13680 Old 09-28-2016, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by EscapeVelocity View Post
Im looking to get a 55" VT60. Just need a bigger size. Im interested in an improved AR filter too
Improved over what brand/model?


Quote:
Anybody know if the VT has a louvre filter like the Samsung F8500, or is that only on the ZT?
The VT60 does have the Louver Filter. Panasonic invented it a year or two before that. The VT60 and ZT60 also use the same Louver Filter. The ZT60 however has a slightly darker black filter which is why the ZT has slightly better black levels, and isn't quite as bright.

Samsung actually copied Panasonic's Louver Filter and used it on the F8500 and it's almost exactly the same.

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post #13652 of 13680 Old 09-28-2016, 12:29 PM
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Thanks Randy. That's what I wanted to know. Im still looking for an Sony W800b too.

I want to upgrade my 50" ST60 to a larger size an Ill probably move to a VT60 at the same time.

Better AR Filter

Faster Processinng
Better Input Lag
No hesitation in the UI from lack of CPU power.

Better Audio
Superior front firing speakers.

Panasonic AX-200u / Optoma Graywolf 92" / Draper Luma 92"
Samsung 51F8500 Plasma / Panasonic P50ST60 Plasma / Sony 50W700B LCD / Vizio VP322 Plasma
Sony S790 BD / Panasonic BDT-220 / Roku 2 XS & Roku 2 (Ver. 3)
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post #13653 of 13680 Old 09-28-2016, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EscapeVelocity View Post
Thanks Randy. That's what I wanted to know. Im still looking for an Sony W800b too.

I want to upgrade my 50" ST60 to a larger size an Ill probably move to a VT60 at the same time.

Better AR Filter

Faster Processinng
Better Input Lag
No hesitation in the UI from lack of CPU power.

Better Audio
Superior front firing speakers.
Possibly loud fans.
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post #13654 of 13680 Old 09-28-2016, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EscapeVelocity View Post
Thanks Randy. That's what I wanted to know. Im still looking for an Sony W800b too. I want to upgrade my 50" ST60 to a larger size an Ill probably move to a VT60 at the same time.

Better AR Filter
Just a little FYI, The VT60 and ZT60 have the exact same AR Louver Filter as the ST60 and even the S64 Costco model. They only have one AR Filter that year, and used it on all four of those models.

.

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post #13655 of 13680 Old 09-28-2016, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post
Just a little FYI, The VT60 and ZT60 have the exact same AR Louver Filter as the ST60 and even the S64 Costco model. They only have one AR Filter that year, and used it on all four of those models.

.
So just the neutral density filter changed from model to model? The VT being the darkest and the ST being the lightest, which affected not only the black levels but the peak luminosity.

Thanks for the info.

I have a 50" ST60 and a 51" F8500 and the F8500 AR is much better at muting reflections. How would you rank the filters of the ZT, VT, ST & F8500?

Panasonic AX-200u / Optoma Graywolf 92" / Draper Luma 92"
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Last edited by EscapeVelocity; 09-28-2016 at 09:14 PM.
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post #13656 of 13680 Old 09-29-2016, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post
Just a little FYI, The VT60 and ZT60 have the exact same AR Louver Filter as the ST60 and even the S64 Costco model. They only have one AR Filter that year, and used it on all four of those models.

Are you sure? I recall quite clearly that the ZT60 had it's own special louver filter, while the rest (i.e. the S60, ST60 and VT60) all had the same one.
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post #13657 of 13680 Old 09-29-2016, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post
Are you sure? I recall quite clearly that the ZT60 had it's own special louver filter, while the rest (i.e. the S60, ST60 and VT60) all had the same one.
I'm pretty sure about it. I auditioned all these models extensively back then and could see no discernable difference in the Louver Filter. And i don't recall any discussion about it here or in the Panasonic Insider thread over at HDJ being any different than the lesser models either back when these models were being produced.

What i think you're remembering is that the ZT60 did have it's own special black filter (the tint that's applied to the plasma panel itself) which was darker than the other models and was the reason the ZT60 had deeper/blacker black levels and less light output. I think it was called something like Ultra Black Pro, while the lesser models were Ultra Black.

I'd verify all this in the pertinent official threads though, but i'm pretty sure about all this. FWIW


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post #13658 of 13680 Old 09-29-2016, 11:34 AM
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ZT = Ultimate Black
VT = Infinite Black Ultra
ST = Infinite Black Pro

Panasonic AX-200u / Optoma Graywolf 92" / Draper Luma 92"
Samsung 51F8500 Plasma / Panasonic P50ST60 Plasma / Sony 50W700B LCD / Vizio VP322 Plasma
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post #13659 of 13680 Old 10-01-2016, 02:55 PM
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Again, I could be wrong, but I think Randy is mistaken. The ZT60 had it's own special Louvre filter. I recall it being mentioned in the CNET reviews comparing the ZT60 to the VT60.
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post #13660 of 13680 Old 10-01-2016, 10:24 PM
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That's what I recall being said at the Value Electronics King of HDTV Shootout that year. But not sure.

Panasonic AX-200u / Optoma Graywolf 92" / Draper Luma 92"
Samsung 51F8500 Plasma / Panasonic P50ST60 Plasma / Sony 50W700B LCD / Vizio VP322 Plasma
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post #13661 of 13680 Old 10-02-2016, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EscapeVelocity View Post
That's what I recall being said at the Value Electronics King of HDTV Shootout that year. But not sure.

Yes, I think I remember that too.
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post #13662 of 13680 Old 12-01-2016, 02:28 PM
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To those who still own the ST60 series.

Does the "skin tone issue" also apply to the 60 inch version of the ST60?
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/index....0002?_k=utdfal

I have the 50 incher and i must say i noticed the issue they raised in that thread.

Someone in my local craigslist is selling a 60 inch st60
I wanna see if buying the 60-65 inch versions will eliminate that issue
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post #13663 of 13680 Old 12-01-2016, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 34-hfx-83 View Post
To those who still own the ST60 series.

Does the "skin tone issue" also apply to the 60 inch version of the ST60?
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/index....0002?_k=utdfal

I have the 50 incher and i must say i noticed the issue they raised in that thread.

Someone in my local craigslist is selling a 60 inch st60
I wanna see if buying the 60-65 inch versions will eliminate that issue
We have the 60" ST. I don't know what "skin tone issue" is. Pic to us is very good. HOWEVER-since you already have an ugly ST w. mirror black and mirror like silver bezel--I would look for a VT if I were looking again.
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post #13664 of 13680 Old 12-01-2016, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snidely View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 34-hfx-83 View Post
To those who still own the ST60 series.

Does the "skin tone issue" also apply to the 60 inch version of the ST60?
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/index....0002?_k=utdfal

I have the 50 incher and i must say i noticed the issue they raised in that thread.

Someone in my local craigslist is selling a 60 inch st60
I wanna see if buying the 60-65 inch versions will eliminate that issue
We have the 60" ST. I don't know what "skin tone issue" is. Pic to us is very good. HOWEVER-since you already have an ugly ST w. mirror black and mirror like silver bezel--I would look for a VT if I were looking again.
Just got the chance to look at the 60 inch ST60 on craigslist.

Not sure if it was burn in just some heavy temporary image retention, but i see "FS1" logo and other. Seller says he watches sports most of the time with the set.

This is the setting he uses:

Custom
Contrast 90
Brightness + 33
Tint 0
Sharpness 50

Cool 2 color temperature

Panel brightness high

Should i still consider this panel, or just write it off ?
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post #13665 of 13680 Old 12-01-2016, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by 34-hfx-83 View Post
Just got the chance to look at the 60 inch ST60 on craigslist.

Not sure if it was burn in just some heavy temporary image retention, but i see "FS1" logo and other. Seller says he watches sports most of the time with the set.

This is the setting he uses:

Custom
Contrast 90
Brightness + 33
Tint 0
Sharpness 50

Cool 2 color temperature

Panel brightness high

Should i still consider this panel, or just write it off ?
Contrast = 90 is on the high end of middling, and it's what really controls the light output. That's the only setting that could affect IR. I think most IR on these sets fades over time, but the only way to be sure is to try it. Problem is, it can take many hours to find out.

Brightness +33 is nuts. It suggests he's trying to compensate for a levels mismatch, which he ought to be solving with HDMI/DVI Dynamic Range. Color Temperature, Panel Brightness, and Sharpness are also wack.
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post #13666 of 13680 Old 12-01-2016, 09:54 PM
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Hey guys, im having trouble deciding between 2 TVs. Im looking at picking up a 65st60, or 70" elite LCD. Both are local. Between the two, which one should i go for? I currently own a panasonic 50s64 and im looking to go bigger and get better blacks and overall picture quality. Not sure if the st60 would be a huge step up besides size.
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post #13667 of 13680 Old 12-02-2016, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by snidely View Post
We have the 60" ST. I don't know what "skin tone issue" is.
While watching tv, turn down color to 0.
You should only see monochrome.
If you see a hint of green here or red tint there then yeah, that's the issue (i think)
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post #13668 of 13680 Old 12-02-2016, 06:15 AM
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I've got the 60ST60 and after adjusting it three years ago to suit my preferences i havent been in those menus once. Picture is fantastic. I strongly recommend anyone to buy this model presuming it is in good shape.
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Sometimes, I see dead pixels...
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post #13669 of 13680 Old Yesterday, 06:57 AM
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I just got a used TC-P65ST60. I already have a TC-P65VT30 in another room since it originally came out.


On the ST60, the seller claimed he paid Best Buy to calibrate it 3 years ago. When I checked the settings, I found that it just has the D-Nice settings. An exact match for every setting.


Anyway, I was getting annoying IR after using the menus that would last for several minutes. After I lowered the contrast from 79 to 70, those IR issues have stopped.


There is still a minor station logo (or multiple logos) burn in at the bottom right that has faded somewhat since I got the TV. Otherwise it looks fantastic, possibly better than my VT30 which was calibrated by Value Electronics. Haven't had a chance to do critical comparisons yet, but the darker blacks are great. The TV has approximately 4650 hours on it.
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post #13670 of 13680 Old Yesterday, 02:24 PM
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Limited (standard) vs Full (nonstandard) range

I'm pretty confused about ranges and I'm not even sure the answer lies within my TC-P60ST60. However I'd say this thread is probably a good place to start.

My setup is relatively standard: I've got an AVR (Denon X4000) on which all sources are connected and the AVR is connected to the TV. Among the various sources, there is a blu-ray player (Sony BDP-S5100) that doubles up as my main Netflix player and an HTPC.

In the past I had some trouble adjusting the colors so that the range output is correct for both movies (blu-ray playback or Netflix) and PC games or other content. I realized along the way the issue about limited/standard/16-235 vs full/nonstandard/0-255 range. The TV can be set on either standard, nonstandard, or auto range.

Using auto range, I was under the impression that the algorithm for switching modes was a bit too simplistic, i.e. set the input on limited/standard range and if values outside 16-235 are received, switch to nonstandard range. I'm not sure if this is the case at this point. The problem is, as I've got sources with likely different output ranges (blu-ray player vs PC) hooked to the same TV input via the AVR, I have no idea how to actually fix the problem if auto mode acts like a ratchet (i.e. goes up to full range but never goes back to limited range). In the past, I got blu-ray playback that was all washed out (limited range output fed to full-range input) while the TV was set on "auto".

Recently I managed to find an option in my nVidia video card driver to output limited/standard range to the TV (while simultaneously outputting full range to an attached LCD monitor). I thought that once and for all my problems would be solved, and forced the TV to standard range, with the idea that now all sources hooked the TV would use standard range.

It turns out that using these settings, watching Netflix on my blu-ray player at least, it appears that the picture is too dark (huge zones of pure black) with some washed out whites (zones of maxed out white). Clearly I'm squeezing full/nonstandard range output into the TV's limited range input.

The thing is, my blu-ray player seems to have no specific setting about color range, other than 10/12/14-bit deep color. Neither does my AVR (I was wondering if an AVR typically rescales the color range). My plan is to set the TV input setting back on "auto", but I'd really like a hint as to what's going on here, and what "auto" actually does (is there some metadata in the HDMI protocol that formally specifies the range so that the TV can switch mode without having to guess?). Do blu-ray players typically output full/nonstandard range? Are they agnostic to range to the point where blu-ray disc playback could be standard range and Netflix playback be nonstandard range? Would anybody do things differently than I do in my setup? Both the player and the TV can output or accept various types of HDMI signals and are both set to "auto": what happens in that case, do they settle on "RGB" vs "Y:Cr:Cb 4:4:4"? Can this affect the range used?

Any hint welcome...

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post #13671 of 13680 Old Yesterday, 02:52 PM
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Auto might do something if it received a signal with PC timings instead of HDTV timings, but otherwise, it has no effect AFAICT.

I've written a bunch on levels and using PCs alongside ordinary video devices like BD players. This recent message in the Kodi forum addresses everything you talked about.

http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?...180#pid2460180
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post #13672 of 13680 Old Yesterday, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmf866 View Post
I just got a used TC-P65ST60. I already have a TC-P65VT30 in another room since it originally came out.


On the ST60, the seller claimed he paid Best Buy to calibrate it 3 years ago. When I checked the settings, I found that it just has the D-Nice settings. An exact match for every setting.


Anyway, I was getting annoying IR after using the menus that would last for several minutes. After I lowered the contrast from 79 to 70, those IR issues have stopped.


There is still a minor station logo (or multiple logos) burn in at the bottom right that has faded somewhat since I got the TV. Otherwise it looks fantastic, possibly better than my VT30 which was calibrated by Value Electronics. Haven't had a chance to do critical comparisons yet, but the darker blacks are great. The TV has approximately 4650 hours on it.
How much did you pay for it if you dont mind me asking? theres a 65st60 local to me for $500 in mint condition. would i be stupid to pass that up? i just picked up a used Elite, so im not sure if its worth it...
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post #13673 of 13680 Old Today, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by FreaKzZ View Post
How much did you pay for it if you dont mind me asking? theres a 65st60 local to me for $500 in mint condition. would i be stupid to pass that up? i just picked up a used Elite, so im not sure if its worth it...


I paid $1000 for it. Included the stand, manual, and one pair of 3D glasses. So to me $500 is a great deal. I checked Craigslist for almost 2 months and it was the only 65" 60 series that popped up around here. A 65VT60 has been on there for $2700 for a while. Just be sure to check it out first.
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post #13674 of 13680 Old Today, 12:31 PM
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This recent message in the Kodi forum addresses everything you talked about.
Thanks a lot, although it's a bit depressing really. I also have the impression I had the exact same exchange (perhaps with you even) like two years ago.

I see that Standard vs Nonstandard range only applies to RGB colorspace. Would it be advisable then to use another colorspace such as Y:Cr:Cb 4:4:4 whenever possible?

I also found about another setting, "Black Level" on the TV, which can be set to either "light" or "dark". I'd opt for "dark" for movie watching but the wording of the description makes it sound like selecting dark is advisable only in special cases ("Select Dark when details are washed out in dark areas of picture from external source").

Sorry to bother you guys with basic questions but I guess I'm late to the party concerning calibration issues with my TV.

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post #13675 of 13680 Old Today, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by neutro View Post
Thanks a lot, although it's a bit depressing really. I also have the impression I had the exact same exchange (perhaps with you even) like two years ago.

I see that Standard vs Nonstandard range only applies to RGB colorspace. Would it be advisable then to use another colorspace such as Y:Cr:Cb 4:4:4 whenever possible?
Not for a PC, for the reason I gave in an earlier message in that thread:

http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?...268#pid2455268

"Don't use the graphics card YCbCr setting, because this causes it to compress all output to 16-235 just before it puts it on the wire. It requires video to first be expanded to 0-255 for this final compression to work out, and you lose color range for the desktop."

This levels round-trip can also cause banding. For other devices, see the Spears and Munsil "Choosing a Color Space" article I linked to.

Quote:
I also found about another setting, "Black Level" on the TV, which can be set to either "light" or "dark". I'd opt for "dark" for movie watching but the wording of the description makes it sound like selecting dark is advisable only in special cases ("Select Dark when details are washed out in dark areas of picture from external source").
The correct setting is "Light", as "Dark" crushes black.

Quote:
Sorry to bother you guys with basic questions but I guess I'm late to the party concerning calibration issues with my TV.
Do you have AVS HD 709? The Clipping patterns are very useful.
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post #13676 of 13680 Old Today, 01:33 PM
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Not for a PC, for the reason I gave in an earlier message in that thread:
Thanks, I did not read the whole thread. Absorbing information at close to maximum capacity now. (This is not as impressive as it sounds.)

Quote:
The correct setting is "Light", as "Dark" crushes black.
Aaaah, that might be the problem, and not actually limited vs full range. Thanks for that.

Quote:
Do you have AVS HD 709? The Clipping patterns are very useful.
I think I do... somewhere. I was very motivated when I first got the TV and then life got hold of me before I could dive into the intricacies of display calibration.

At the risk of asking a frequently asked question here... is there a post in this thread or elsewhere with a simple list of steps for rough calibration (perhaps using AVS HD 709 patterns)? I think when I first attempted this, I got lost in the details.

One of the problem of course is, which source should I use for displaying calibration patterns. My PC? or is burning to a BD mandatory? (I had no burner at the time but now I have one so I guess it would be the best option?)

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Originally Posted by FreaKzZ View Post
How much did you pay for it if you dont mind me asking? theres a 65st60 local to me for $500 in mint condition. would i be stupid to pass that up? i just picked up a used Elite, so im not sure if its worth it...
If I could have found that size- with low hours at that price, I'd buy it and resell it at a profit if I didn't want it.
I would want it
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My (second) 50" ST60 is turning 1 year old
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post #13679 of 13680 Unread Today, 03:09 PM
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Official Panasonic TC-PxxST60 Series thread

When I bought it last year I was absolutely blown away.

No burn in
No blown subpixels
No dirty screen effect

Not bad for just 400 bux.

Previous owner of the 50 inch ST60 only logged less than 500 hours.


5000 hours later, here's my impression(s):

1. This 60-series ST plasma is the least resistant to IR and/or burn-in... so no CNN/FOX/MSNBC/FS1/ESPN with this set.

2. This set definitely has really deep blacks like the Kuro Elite and it actually maintains it. Man-cave watchers rejoice!

3. Due to aggressive ABL and (I think...) not-so-beefy power supply, I think this set is only optimized for watching (non-animated) bluray movies with APL levels usually seen in cinema. Full white fields tops only at 17 ft/L.

4. The built in ABL algorithm definitely kicks in aggressively in live videos with high APL like Hockey and anything to do with snow events. Also, I'm not sure I'm the only one who notice it but I think color tone (and even gamma shift) happens in high APL scene.

5. This set sure is sharp! I had to turn down sharpness setting to 0.


So yeah, I pretty much relegated my ST60 to bluray or netflix/hulu movie watching.

For anything higher APL such as live action feed (news, sports) and animation (3DCG and anime) I still continue to use my 2010 50 inch Viera G20. The G20 handles high APL and bright programming much better.

For cinema grade material like Dark Knight Trilogy I'll defer that to the ST60, preferably in a mancave environment
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post #13680 of 13680 Unread Today, 03:35 PM
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At the risk of asking a frequently asked question here... is there a post in this thread or elsewhere with a simple list of steps for rough calibration (perhaps using AVS HD 709 patterns)? I think when I first attempted this, I got lost in the details.
There's a master thread on it, and it also comes with instructions. The clipping patterns are the most useful. Use them to set Brightness and Contrast, but be aware that Contrast is mainly about maximum light output on these sets. Beyond that, set Color Temperature to Warm 2, Sharpness to 0, and Gamma to 2.4 or 2.6 for dark room, and that's about all you can do by eye.

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One of the problem of course is, which source should I use for displaying calibration patterns. My PC? or is burning to a BD mandatory? (I had no burner at the time but now I have one so I guess it would be the best option?)
Both. You should be able to get consistent results between them. I use Kodi and WMC on the PC, and I've burned it to AVCHD, copied it to Fire TV Stick and iTunes for use with my ATV4, etc.
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