Official Panasonic TC-PxxST60 Series thread - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 13090 Old 03-27-2013, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post

From a person who watches tv in a bright room too: choose carefully which sacrifices you will make. Processing flaws, like fluctuating blacks or brightness, are less perceptible during the day, but will scream at you in he dark or dimly lit room.

Hear you and agree. That's why I want to find out whether ST60 would be bright enough for a room as bright as I described. If yes, hey, with similar or even better PQ in a light-controlled environment and about $1000 cheaper (65"), why I need a F8500? After all, most of our TV watch is not in the daytime.

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Im in the same boat...very very bright room....but i maostly do any "serious" watching at night..so as long as the picture is reasonably ok...the occasional watching fruing the day is fine...so do I do the 55ST60 or spring for the Samsung f8500 to get the brighter picture...and yes I know its only 51...so thats a loss too...but probably fine as I have 50 now and am happy with size.

If you wait a bit, you're going to hear about problems with the 8500 that Panasonic fixed in their tvs, and Samsung shouldn't have let occur in this tv, as well as possibly another drawback or two.

I own a 60GT50 and it's marvelous in my bright room. My room is rectangular with a 3 frame wide window on one of the long sides and open to the kitchen on a short side. It is too narrow to place a full size sofa across and not make the room feel small or cramped. Before mounting the tv we decided to try it located across from the windows, the tv did well enough there to mount it. I find that, with the exceptions of the brightest time of day, the tv performs well enough for my mind to ignore reflections. I was never able to do that with any tv before. I also have blinds and curtains on that window for the times, during the day, when I watch a movie and want a more immersive experience. One final point about a bright room, the 3D effect is not going to look as good as when the room is dark.

BTW, there are some motion processing flaws in Panasonic's 50 series, but I don't see it very often, and I'm curious to hear if they've been improved upon in the 60 series.

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post #182 of 13090 Old 03-27-2013, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post


If you wait a bit, you're going to hear about problems with the 8500 that Panasonic fixed in their tvs, and Samsung shouldn't have let occur in this tv, as well as possibly another drawback or two.

I own a 60GT50 and it's marvelous in my bright room. My room is rectangular with a 3 frame wide window on one of the long sides and open to the kitchen on a short side. It is too narrow to place a full size sofa across and not make the room feel small or cramped. Before mounting the tv we decided to try it located across from the windows, the tv did well enough there to mount it. I find that, with the exceptions of the brightest time of day, the tv performs well enough for my mind to ignore reflections. I was never able to do that with any tv before. I also have blinds and curtains on that window for the times, during the day, when I watch a movie and want a more immersive experience. One final point about a bright room, the 3D effect is not going to look as good as when the room is dark.

Wait what? please tell me what problems are we goign to hear about for the 8500? I guess we wont hear about anything wrong with the Panasonic line right? I dont ahve a horse in this race and the ST60 is shaping up to be a very good one by the number released so far, but to say there WILL be more than a few issues, is not n the best interest of anyone except those that are blinded by loyalty to one brand.........
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post #183 of 13090 Old 03-27-2013, 10:40 AM
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Wait what? please tell me what problems are we goign to hear about for the 8500? I guess we wont hear about anything wrong with the Panasonic line right? I dont ahve a horse in this race and the ST60 is shaping up to be a very good one by the number released so far, but to say there WILL be more than a few issues, is not n the best interest of anyone except those that are blinded by loyalty to one brand.........

I am guessing some inside info of some sort

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post #184 of 13090 Old 03-27-2013, 10:46 AM
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I am guessing some inside info of some sort

On a sset that was just released? thats like me saying if you wait I think youll hear about some problems with the ST60...OF COURSE you will wink.gif thats a fact about any set that gets released.....None are perfect and all will ahve some sort of issue and they will get reported on the forums......
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post #185 of 13090 Old 03-27-2013, 10:49 AM
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On a sset that was just released? thats like me saying if you wait I think youll hear about some problems with the ST60...OF COURSE you will wink.gif thats a fact about any set that gets released.....None are perfect and all will ahve some sort of issue and they will get reported on the forums......

I guess only the op can answer your question then

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post #186 of 13090 Old 03-27-2013, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

I have a 50ST60 review in the works, and since it may be a couple days before I get it finished I thought I'd pass along some tidbits. Black level measures .00232 fL, modified ANSI CR is 11,200:1. Excellent grayscale and gamma measurements thanks to the addition of a 10 point adjustment previously only found on the VT series.
Before cal Home THeater mode and Cinema mode are decent choices, with grayscale being more accurate in Cinema but fleshtones too pale and undersaturated in Cinema.
Custom calibrates well, as should Cinema. Could use Custom as a day mode and Cinema as night...
Hi Chab,

Any comments regarding dithering? Indeed each year the Pana plasmas are said to be "king of the world" in reviews but once you have them in your living room, that's a totally different story. Indeed for example VT50 have tons of dithering in all modes (except Pro one), especially with dark scenes. I currently own a 55VT50, so I know what I'm talking about...What's the situation with the new ST60? Any improvement in this area?
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post #187 of 13090 Old 03-27-2013, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by AdamHD View Post

I have been following the ST60's pretty close and I have not seen anyone say that they have been able to buy anything but the 50 inch (so far). Looks like 50 inch sets are now in most Best Buy stores. Sears has both the 50" and the 60" on their website, but I have not seen any "available" or shipping yet. Amazon has all models listed, but none are available yet. Looks like it's gonna be a couple more weeks until the larger sets start shipping (or showing up in stores). I am really interested in the 65", but (from the looks of it) that will probably be the last one to hit the market.

Just an FYI - I preordered the 65ST60 from Panasonic direct, and received an email two day ago that said they anticipate having it in stock by 3/31/13, and that typically it ships a few days later.

So hopefully the 65" start shipping next week (from Panasonic at least).

If anything changes (get shipping confirmation), I will post back.
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post #188 of 13090 Old 03-27-2013, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Tomeo View Post

Hi Chab,

Any comments regarding dithering? Indeed each year the Pana plasmas are said to be "king of the world" in reviews but once you have them in your living room, that's a totally different story. Indeed for example VT50 have tons of dithering in all modes (except Pro one), especially with dark scenes. I currently own a 55VT50, so I know what I'm talking about...What's the situation with the new ST60? Any improvement in this area?

I agree the dither was awful on last years pana plasma's. Just one of the reasons I sold my 55VT50 so I'd interest to know too.

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post #189 of 13090 Old 03-27-2013, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by BlackNGold View Post

Just an FYI - I preordered the 65ST60 from Panasonic direct, and received an email two day ago that said they anticipate having it in stock by 3/31/13, and that typically it ships a few days later.

So hopefully the 65" start shipping next week (from Panasonic at least).

If anything changes (get shipping confirmation), I will post back.

Awesome! Thanks for the update. I probably won't be ordering from Panasonic direct, but that is a good sign that the larger models should be hitting Best Buy and some online retailers soon.
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post #190 of 13090 Old 03-27-2013, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Wait what? please tell me what problems are we goign to hear about for the 8500? I guess we wont hear about anything wrong with the Panasonic line right? I dont ahve a horse in this race and the ST60 is shaping up to be a very good one by the number released so far, but to say there WILL be more than a few issues, is not n the best interest of anyone except those that are blinded by loyalty to one brand.........

I am guessing some inside info of some sort

Read Chad's review carefully. wink.gif Just going over it again quickly, I see two problems.

I also think that brightness is going to cause a problem that Samsung didn't have before, I could be wrong though. In addition, buzz will continue to be a problem for many.

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post #191 of 13090 Old 03-27-2013, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomeo View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

I have a 50ST60 review in the works, and since it may be a couple days before I get it finished I thought I'd pass along some tidbits. Black level measures .00232 fL, modified ANSI CR is 11,200:1. Excellent grayscale and gamma measurements thanks to the addition of a 10 point adjustment previously only found on the VT series.
Before cal Home THeater mode and Cinema mode are decent choices, with grayscale being more accurate in Cinema but fleshtones too pale and undersaturated in Cinema.
Custom calibrates well, as should Cinema. Could use Custom as a day mode and Cinema as night...
Hi Chab,

Any comments regarding dithering? Indeed each year the Pana plasmas are said to be "king of the world" in reviews but once you have them in your living room, that's a totally different story. Indeed for example VT50 have tons of dithering in all modes (except Pro one), especially with dark scenes. I currently own a 55VT50, so I know what I'm talking about...What's the situation with the new ST60? Any improvement in this area?

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post #192 of 13090 Old 03-27-2013, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post

Read Chad's review carefully. wink.gif Just going over it again quickly, I see two problems.

I also think that brightness is going to cause a problem that Samsung didn't have before, I could be wrong though. In addition, buzz will continue to be a problem for many.

Most reviews have "problems" connected to them, while a TV set does one thing well it may lack in another area.....This is the case for any TV........So far havent seen much to say that either the Panasonic or ST60 wouldnt be good choices for "real world" viewing......
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post #193 of 13090 Old 03-27-2013, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post

Read Chad's review carefully. wink.gif Just going over it again quickly, I see two problems.

I also think that brightness is going to cause a problem that Samsung didn't have before, I could be wrong though. In addition, buzz will continue to be a problem for many.

Most reviews have "problems" connected to them, while a TV set does one thing well it may lack in another area.....This is the case for any TV

Sure but when the words used are "fluctuating," "pulsing," or "pops" I go the other way. wink.gif

Have you seen the comment the owner of the tv that was calibrated just posted?
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........So far havent seen much to say that either the Panasonic or ST60 wouldnt be good choices for "real world" viewing......

Have you read anything that would imply otherwise? Just looking at the ST50 is a pretty good indication of what is to come, unless Panasonic took a step back. From what I've read, I don't think that's the case.wink.gif

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post #194 of 13090 Old 03-27-2013, 12:49 PM
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Any chance that full review comes today? Very excited to read all about this set. It's still on the top of my list for new sets.
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Originally Posted by BlackNGold View Post

Just an FYI - I preordered the 65ST60 from Panasonic direct, and received an email two day ago that said they anticipate having it in stock by 3/31/13, and that typically it ships a few days later.

So hopefully the 65" start shipping next week (from Panasonic at least).

If anything changes (get shipping confirmation), I will post back.

Man, 50 inch is out there, now 65 inch coming. I'm wondering if the 60 inch I want will be last...

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post #195 of 13090 Old 03-27-2013, 01:51 PM
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Man, 50 inch is out there, now 65 inch coming. I'm wondering if the 60 inch I want will be last...

I bet the 60 inch is coming very soon. It's already listed on several sites with what looks to be pretty solid "sale" pricing of $1499. I am thinking this will be the size I go with as well. I cannot justify to myself (or my wife) the 53% price hike between the 60" to the 65", for just an extra 5 inches. Regardless, I hope ALL of the larger sizes start shipping soon!
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post #196 of 13090 Old 03-27-2013, 01:59 PM
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Sure but when the words used are "fluctuating," "pulsing," or "pops" I go the other way. wink.gif

Have you seen the comment the owner of the tv that was calibrated just posted?
Have you read anything that would imply otherwise? Just looking at the ST50 is a pretty good indication of what is to come, unless Panasonic took a step back. From what I've read, I don't think that's the case.wink.gif

As I said either would be a good choice, we ahve one revie that says he say those another where they said they didnt.......I mean if I jsut went off what owners said than the F8500 would be a good set (owners seem to be very happy).......I dont go by numebrs or pro reviews alone, I let my eyes judge and use a sprinkiling of pro\user reviews as research........I can pick apart any review however and make it fit my viewpoint.......but to avoid this goign down the rabbit hole I am bowing out of this convo so that this thread doesnt get muddled........Looking forward to seeeing the review by Chad, hopefully its everything the numbers are pointing it to be...
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post #197 of 13090 Old 03-27-2013, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

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Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post

Sure but when the words used are "fluctuating," "pulsing," or "pops" I go the other way. wink.gif

Have you seen the comment the owner of the tv that was calibrated just posted?
Have you read anything that would imply otherwise? Just looking at the ST50 is a pretty good indication of what is to come, unless Panasonic took a step back. From what I've read, I don't think that's the case.wink.gif

As I said either would be a good choice, we ahve one revie that says he say those another where they said they didnt.......I mean if I jsut went off what owners said than the F8500 would be a good set (owners seem to be very happy).......I dont go by numebrs or pro reviews alone, I let my eyes judge and use a sprinkiling of pro\user reviews as research........I can pick apart any review however and make it fit my viewpoint.......but to avoid this goign down the rabbit hole I am bowing out of this convo so that this thread doesnt get muddled........Looking forward to seeeing the review by Chad, hopefully its everything the numbers are pointing it to be...

Just one point though, those words were used by the person who calibrated the set, the one with the tools and great eyes, Chad B. wink.gif
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post #198 of 13090 Old 03-27-2013, 02:29 PM
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I agree the dither was awful on last years pana plasma's. Just one of the reasons I sold my 55VT50 so I'd interest to know too.
You did the right thing! I personally don't trust anymore reviews at 100% because they don't tell the truth to customers. The VT50 was the last year killer machine they said. Oki, great. Did they mention that there was a lot of dithering and IR, a bad 3D experience compared to previous models, a crappy panel uniformity with right vertical banding...etc? Of course not. King TV, really? So I'm also about to sell my 55VT50 shortly, so this year I want the truth, and believe me I wont be fooled twice for my new TV. For me dithering is as horrible as clouding could be for LCDs. You can have the best machine, if the rending is ransacked by dithering that's totally useless!

Dithering seems to be super well controled on Samsung plasmas. That's why the F8500 could be the best choice this year. I prefer to have a little bit less black depth but an homogeneous machine rather than a black depth killer Tv that forces you to do unacceptable rendering compromises.

The problem I see on furums is that people are totally focused on black depth whereas there are tons of other super important parameters to take into account when it's about to choose a new plasma.
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post #199 of 13090 Old 03-27-2013, 02:43 PM
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So to paraphrase reviewers/calibrators are dishonest ?
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post #200 of 13090 Old 03-27-2013, 02:54 PM
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Do you people sit a foot away from your TVs or something? I don't notice any visible or bothersome dithering noise on my VT50 unless I'm very very close to the panel. I had a G20 prior to this and dithering bothers me just as much on the VT as it did on the 2010 model -- that is, not at all.

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post #201 of 13090 Old 03-27-2013, 02:56 PM
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post #202 of 13090 Old 03-27-2013, 02:58 PM
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Do you people sit a foot away from your TVs or something? I don't notice any visible or bothersome dithering noise on my VT50 unless I'm very very close to the panel. I had a G20 prior to this and dithering bothers me just as much on the VT as it did on the 2010 model -- that is, not at all.

I see it clearly from 8ft on some material that is not 1080 and on all SD.

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post #203 of 13090 Old 03-27-2013, 03:01 PM
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So to paraphrase reviewers/calibrators are dishonest ?

I didnt read it that way, but rather use them as a tool rather than gospel......The calibrators reviews are great but they are only part of the entire picture over a short window.....You should take YOur own impression when seeing it in person, user reports\reviews and calibrators reviews as part of the decision you make......
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post #204 of 13090 Old 03-27-2013, 03:08 PM
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So to paraphrase reviewers/calibrators are dishonest ?
Well I would not say that. A lot of reviewers only have 24h to test a TV so it´s hard to identify all potential issues. I'm just saying that if I read again last year reviews and compare them with what´s in my living room I see a huge gap. So we have a problem here. TV manufacturers also use to send zero default samples to reviewers. You also need to know that some reviewers are considered as VIPs by TV makers, meaning reception of gifts or travels or VIP pass for big events (CES...). So hard for those reviews to report something bad about the machines they test. Do a mix of all those elements and you can have a first adept of awnser why I dońt trust reviews anymore.
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post #205 of 13090 Old 03-27-2013, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post

Read Chad's review carefully. wink.gif Just going over it again quickly, I see two problems.

I also think that brightness is going to cause a problem that Samsung didn't have before, I could be wrong though. In addition, buzz will continue to be a problem for many.

I think this falls in the category of "FUD". No need for that is there?

When problems are identified, however few or however many, they'll be reported. But to inject FUD doesn't serve anyone well.
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post #206 of 13090 Old 03-27-2013, 03:15 PM
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Do you people sit a foot away from your TVs or something? I don't notice any visible or bothersome dithering noise on my VT50 unless I'm very very close to the panel. I had a G20 prior to this and dithering bothers me just as much on the VT as it did on the 2010 model -- that is, not at all.
Please whatch for example TRON Legacy on your vt50 with the "normal" mode and tell me what´s the result. I think you will realize quickly the disaster and what is dithering on Pana tvs.
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post #207 of 13090 Old 03-27-2013, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post

I see it clearly from 8ft on some material that is not 1080 and on all SD.

I can't see it unless I am a closer than 3 feet or so mostly on the blacks. I use an Oppo for the video processing though don't know if that makes the difference?
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post #208 of 13090 Old 03-27-2013, 03:19 PM
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Just one point though, those words were used by the person who calibrated the set, the one with the tools and great eyes, Chad B. wink.gif

I like you wink.gif and this wink wink.gif....biggrin.gif
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post #209 of 13090 Old 03-27-2013, 03:28 PM
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Please whatch for example TRON Legacy on your vt50 with the "normal" mode and tell me what´s the result. I think you will realize quickly the disaster and what is dithering on Pana tvs.

I thought Standard/Normal were always junk, but it is much less obvious on Cinema (or whatever it is called). Why not use that (or THX)?
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post #210 of 13090 Old 03-27-2013, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Tomeo View Post

Please whatch for example TRON Legacy on your vt50 with the "normal" mode and tell me what´s the result. I think you will realize quickly the disaster and what is dithering on Pana tvs.

I thought Standard/Normal were always junk, but it is much less obvious on Cinema (or whatever it is called). Why not use that (or THX)?
Why? Because I own a EU vt50, meaning limited pro mode compared to US one, meaning washed out blacks, so poor rendering. Thx mode? Why not but you can't force the anti-IR feature and the rendering is too green. So what are my choices here? Normal or Cinema mode...:/...2012 EU VT50 really suxx, believe me, that´s why I'm so disappointed with pana.
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