Is it normal for a plasma to wash out a scene with mostly white and why? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 13 Old 01-14-2013, 09:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Is it normal for plasma TV to wash out a scene with mostly white?
I am new to plasmas and have tried two i could afford only see a common outcome with white scenes.
I have tried Panasonic X5 and am trying 43" Samsung Series 4 and after turning off all eco modes and auto color or contrast settings, and calibrating with WOW, I notice white scenes not only look dull(gray) but then the entire contrent has a dull grayed look as well .
Colors look washed out as well in those scences. I could understand if jsut the white was not as bright but then why do the same colors pop in other scenes but with allot of white what is going on that entire picture is "off"?

If this is a common issue is there ways to improve or prevent this or explain WHY? I never noticed how many commercials have great deal of white in them until I switched to plasma.

thanks
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post #2 of 13 Old 01-15-2013, 01:36 AM
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I'm not familiar with the Series 4 specifically, but on my Samsungs I always set Cell Light to the highest setting, Contrast at 95, brightness around 50-ish and whites and picture brightness were always fine.

Try that.
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post #3 of 13 Old 01-15-2013, 05:18 AM
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ABL (automatic brightness limiter)

Plasmas are dynamically driven. Today's Plasma's with all of these "green" power restrictions are even more dynamic in nature then previous models. This is all due to the lower power requirements.

Basically the TV has a power quota/budget (power limit). If the TV put all of it's power into producing the white required (in say a snow scene) all of the rest of the details on the screen would be lost as there wouldn't be adequate power for them . So they have to make some sacrifices to the bright whites to give power to other parts of the screen. As you might have figured out large white areas of the screen take the biggest hit on the power budget/quota.

Also of note... and mentionable in regards to your color assessment.

Because plasmas are dynamic and the ABL exists. They can only be calibrated (well) within a range of APL (average picture level).

When you see a color tracking chart or gamma chart for a plasma it will NOT track like that for all APLs. What calibrators do is find pattern sizes which compliment most scenes (or sometimes even the TVs dynamic drive system) and use that to calibrate. That is were the artistry part of calibration comes in. You'll find not all calibrators agree on how to calibrate a plasma. This is because the results are not all the same (different calibrators use different methods/patterns) and a bit of it depends on taste.

The VT50 for example does not track color (measuring 25,50,75,100% luminance) linear from say a 1% size pattern to a 30% pattern. The TV will deviate. So while some reviews claim "reference" color, it's not exactly true. It might be "reference color" for some range of APL (pattern size) but it wont be true overall.

Every TV technology has some pitfalls. If you were super anal, you could try a 3D LUT to try and fix any of the color deviations. It would certainly get it closer, but it wouldn't fix the ABL/dynamic drive system quirks.

-SiGGy
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post #4 of 13 Old 01-15-2013, 07:41 AM - Thread Starter
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straybright- cell light is at 20(max) I also used some recommended settings for some of the advanced calibration. I figured these people know more than I do.


siggy why dont other light COLORS do that? Some commercias for lack of a better example ,might have a light blue or light neon green and yet everythiing is still good. Why should those require as much power. Who cares? that is they already lie on the engery guid. To get that rating you have to use the eco mode and even at night it was a joke what they expect you to watch the in those settings.

Like I said, I could understand maybe if I got white But I do not have white. I have dull white or gray in those scenes MOSTLY white. Even graphis in the middle get dull.


I would accept on or the other (would not be happy with it but could live with it) I would rather live with duller whites , I think if the rest of the image maintained.
But when the white goes grayish and the colors get dulled like a gray mask is over them in majority white scenes, this is not acceptable!

I am not "super anal" or even all that "anal" siggy, This is not something that you have to llok hard for, I jumps right out at you that the white is off. On this TV, white in scenes look bright or at least, have the illusion to look "white" but larger white scenes seem to over all wash out with a gray cast and the white is surely more gray than white.

So how likely is this an issue with it being a lower cost plasma? It has been that way on the two I have tried.
What else could I try to improve that? The Samsung as more adjustments than the Panasonic .
Is there a way to adjust ABL?
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post #5 of 13 Old 01-15-2013, 08:04 AM
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yes, whites suck on plasmas when there's too much of it on the screen. I found that out the hard way too. Not to mention when you get crappy whites you also get bacon frying buzzing that comes along with it just to remind you that it's "trying". Plasmas are kinda crappy when you really think about it but not as bad as LED/LCD. Funny thing is, God only knows what the quirks are going to be with OLED....but rest assure, they'll be there.
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post #6 of 13 Old 01-15-2013, 08:28 AM - Thread Starter
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What I am increasingly surprised with is how many people are willing to sacrifice what all TVs should provide, a great picture, just to get a large screen size.

I posted in another forum my story. Sadly for me, Dish Network HD,no matter what tried with techs present, looks horrible on 8 LCD / LED TVs I have tried.
Plasma has smoothed out most of the issues but now created a new issue. Basically my room is smalller, can only sit max 8 feet away, I watch both blu ray and day time network HDTV. I would be fine if only watching blue ra,. for $189 a Walmart Quantum View 1080p played movies just as well as Samsung Series 6 $700 tv side by side (as well as both showed the flaws in Dish signal equally) so why keep the $700 TV?)

I really wanted 32" but lcd/led trials showed issues , espeically in faces which looked fake, pixelated around the talking mouths and zoomed out table scenes Also saw it on higher channels that even state they are in HD.

it has been amazing what people are saying they "settle with" It seems like they are trying to be ahead of the curve but I am just about ready to go back to mhy 480i tube tv...


Now Plasma smoothed out all the fake computery faces and things look more natural I have beenable to over come the high gloss, still using less power than the tube TV but to have to sacrifice picture quality by loosing whites on majority white scenes? I will be honest. I honly had this E450 a couple days. I have not tried a blue ray on the 720p and want to see a white scene

When I was trying the the Panasoncic X5 I had scene CBS morning show a snow scene as that was better than the commercial scenes. The TV seemed to react different with actual snow scene than a bright white commercial. I do not know why it looked natural in that scene so want to try to see how it works with snow in movies. Maybe then I could "sacrifice"
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post #7 of 13 Old 01-15-2013, 08:39 AM
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I have a VT50 and the Microsoft commercial for Windows 8 at the end shows a FULL white screen with Windows in small font in the middle. And trust me, it's embarrassing.
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post #8 of 13 Old 01-15-2013, 08:48 AM - Thread Starter
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No bacon buzz with most of the settings pretty high up on this TV!
I am also up late at night and keep it low and at normal distances with sound on can not hear hum but I know ther is a small amount when on top of the unit. volume 10 there is no competeing with a hum.

Daytime it is drowned out by the buzz of life.
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post #9 of 13 Old 01-15-2013, 08:50 AM - Thread Starter
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copene
what is embarssing?
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post #10 of 13 Old 01-15-2013, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markstar View Post

straybright- cell light is at 20(max) I also used some recommended settings for some of the advanced calibration. I figured these people know more than I do.


siggy why dont other light COLORS do that? Some commercias for lack of a better example ,might have a light blue or light neon green and yet everythiing is still good. Why should those require as much power. Who cares? that is they already lie on the engery guid. To get that rating you have to use the eco mode and even at night it was a joke what they expect you to watch the in those settings.

Like I said, I could understand maybe if I got white But I do not have white. I have dull white or gray in those scenes MOSTLY white. Even graphis in the middle get dull.


I would accept on or the other (would not be happy with it but could live with it) I would rather live with duller whites , I think if the rest of the image maintained.
But when the white goes grayish and the colors get dulled like a gray mask is over them in majority white scenes, this is not acceptable!

I am not "super anal" or even all that "anal" siggy, This is not something that you have to llok hard for, I jumps right out at you that the white is off. On this TV, white in scenes look bright or at least, have the illusion to look "white" but larger white scenes seem to over all wash out with a gray cast and the white is surely more gray than white.

So how likely is this an issue with it being a lower cost plasma? It has been that way on the two I have tried.
What else could I try to improve that? The Samsung as more adjustments than the Panasonic .
Is there a way to adjust ABL?

I think you have mistaken some of what I said. I didn't mean to say you were anal. The "anal" comment is to try and get color to be correct through all video APLs via a 3D LUT is anal in itself. It's not something most guys would even try. It's also time consuming unless you have the measurements done via automation. And like I said it's a bit futile to even try on a Plasma due to the ABL and the dynamic drive. Although it would produce better measurable results, and perhaps visual. Don't even bother looking into it.

The ABL and dynamic drive exist in ALL modes, it's inherent to the design of plasma TVs today. The "ECO" modes are power saving features which you want to disable.

And yes, the ABL/dynamic drive effects can be seen in COLORS (why did you put caps). but it's dramatic in bright whites.

No, the ABL is not adjustable.

Personally I would never use commercials to judge PQ, they can be all over the place video quality wise. I've seen some with wrong gamma, wrong color space, brightness, clipped whites/blacks... Name something, I've seen it be wrong! It seems they sometimes get converted by whomever does the commercial insertions and they don't always get it right.

yes, you would notice a difference switching to a higher end panel and getting it calibrated. Best of luck.

-SiGGy
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post #11 of 13 Old 01-24-2013, 06:27 AM - Thread Starter
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What amazing to me is how much HDTVhave been putting up with all these years. I serioulsy think I went DOWNHILL by UPGRADING to HD. In lower resoluton panels you do nto see the blotchy oil-paint effect in faces or movement since HDTV is scaled at 720p. Why would consumers buy into "HD" on their paid services if they are STILL not there yet in terms of an quality PQ standard?

And why would in 2013, commercials be uniform. It is amazing th amount of poor quality SD commercials will run as well as mixed quality 1080 format commericals appear on Dish network. I thought I waited long enough for a MAJOR network to come out with higher quality. I would have thought everyone one would have been on board.

Oh I could be wrong,It still could be what DISH is doing to it. I live in an area where I can not get OTA HD of the networks to comapare. If it still looked poor to me, then I could rule out DISH being the issue.
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post #12 of 13 Old 10-22-2013, 02:07 PM
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Try SAMSUNG F8500 series 

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post #13 of 13 Old 10-22-2013, 04:35 PM
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On a lower budget plasma if you get it calibrated it makes the washout screens more livable.The problem is plasmas are very difficult to get the settings right on without the right test patterns.Even then you have too know how too do it....Its a bit late but if you dvr ed last Sunday night football game it was good for setting the contrast to find when it starts discoloring.Lots of crazy plasma whites on the screen in that game.
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