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post #1 of 145 Old 01-15-2013, 05:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello everyone,

With the news from CES showing the first large screen OLED displays coming to market this year, I was wondering what that means for current high end plasma owners. Surely OLED is the future technology everyone is talking about, but is it absolutely superior to plasma or what plasma is capable of producing?

I ask because I, like many here, own a Pioneer Kuro display and have been happy with it since I bought it. I still only have an 8th generation model, but I have seen the 9th gen Kuros and am well aware of what Pioneer was able to achieve with plasma technology.

So, does OLED only have the potential to be better than the best plasma, or will almost any OLED be clearly superior to any plasma?

And what exactly makes it superior? Remember, I have talking only about picture quality, not screen depth, or energy consumption or any other aspect of the tech. Black levels have been touted as being superior, but Pioneer basically was able to achieve truly infinite black levels with plasma tech. They were forced to shut down before they were able to mass produce a display with infinite contrast, but the last ones they made are still amazing (KRP-500m).

http://www.popsci.com/files/typepad/popsci.typepad.com/popsci/2008/01/pioneer-invents.html

Contrast and black levels are surely one of the most important aspects of picture quality and even if OLED excels, they cannot surpass infinite black. And Pioneer Kuro tech is capable of achieving it.


And we know that the upcoming Panasonic plasmas, especially the ZT60 is a huge improvement over last years plasmas and might finally be the equal of the best Kuros.


So I am a little confused about what exactly makes OLED inherently superior to plasma with regards to picture quality? There might even be untapped potential in plasma technology that could be exploited. And until OLED screens become priced close to current high end plasmas, I would think it reasonable for manufacturers to continue to push plasma tech as far as they can.


So what I am asking is: If money was no object, would the OLED screens being released this year be the best displays ever made? Will they clearly outclass, say, the Pioneer KRP-500m?

Do you anticipate the technology taking many years to get the kinks worked out and get the picture quality up to par, or will even this years OLED screens be mature enough tech wise to dominate the competition?



In a perfect world, I would love to get an 80" 4K OLED display. Of course today, such a display would probably cost more than $30,000! While I regularly see very low hours KRP-500m's for sale for $1500.


So what is your opinion on plasma vs OLED? If the prices were not as high, or you didn't care about the price, would you upgrade your plasma to an OLED display this year?


Thanks so much. I look forward to reading the responses.
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post #2 of 145 Old 01-15-2013, 06:14 PM
 
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This would be more appropriately placed in the Flat Panel Tech forum. If the new OLED was priced equitably with the ZT60 (or possibly Samsung's offering), I might get the former...otherwise at the current price of $12k and since it's the 1st generation of a new product, I'd rather not be a guinea pig. OLED can improve PQ in other areas aside from black level but may still be susceptible to burn-in. Pioneer only ever introduced a prototype panel showing infinite blacks, and neither Panasonic nor Samsung have reached even that point suggesting the costs to manufacture it would be astronomical. Therefore, the comparison should be between the Plasma tech attainable in 2013 versus OLED, the latter of which should be able to exceed the BL of the former.
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post #3 of 145 Old 01-16-2013, 08:52 AM
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I expect OLED to have its fair share of problems just as every other display type has. I personally would never buy the first generation release of any new display type.
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post #4 of 145 Old 01-16-2013, 09:13 AM
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OLED ion aspects have a major breakthrough, each company has its own core competitiveness CES is no exception 1.gif
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post #5 of 145 Old 01-16-2013, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Mastperf View Post

I expect OLED to have its fair share of problems just as every other display type has. I personally would never buy the first generation release of any new display type.

Yeah, there will never be a perfect display. Every tech has it's drawbacks and everyone has their own pet peeves.

I also never buy first generation anything. Better to let kinks in new technology get worked out and not pay early adopter inflated prices.

I'm very happy with my plasma, but would like a quieter, buzz free display and something that had no worry about IR. But for now I'll take those for the better PQ, black levels etc. than in LED or traditional LCD sets. 5+ years down the road (barring the current tv breaking) I'll reassess.
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post #6 of 145 Old 01-16-2013, 10:22 AM
 
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All very true, but this guy comes from the Kuro camp, so he has a black level fetish like most of us. wink.gif I never looked back after ditching LCD in 2008. OLED should excel in this area (among others), but the prospect of the 1st generation panels and any issues they may have along with their cost can make one pause.
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post #7 of 145 Old 01-16-2013, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by jrodefeld View Post


Contrast and black levels are surely one of the most important aspects of picture quality and even if OLED excels, they cannot surpass infinite black. And Pioneer Kuro tech is capable of achieving it.

Completely incorrect. Kuro didn't come close to infinite black. AND oled does produce infinite black.
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post #8 of 145 Old 01-16-2013, 10:51 AM
 
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I could be wrong, but I think he's referring to the CES prototype from 2008, which I don't know much about, but for which Pioneer made similar claims.
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post #9 of 145 Old 01-16-2013, 10:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by yamvmax View Post

Completely incorrect. Kuro didn't come close to infinite black. AND oled does produce infinite black.

I was referring to the CES prototype Pioneer demoed at CES in 2008 which DID produce infinite black. Yes the last Kuros came up short of this prototype, but my point was that the tech that Pioneer was using to make the Kuros was capable of achieving the ultimate contrast ratio. Now, if Pioneer was not forced to exit the plasma business, how amazing would their displays be today?

My understanding was they simply didn't have the time to develop a mass production model with the "ultimate contrast" tech inside it. If they were still making plasmas, I would suspect they would have achieved it, perhaps even a couple of years ago.


As for OLED, are you saying that ALL OLED displays produce infinite black? Or simply that the tech has the potential to do that? As far as picture quality is concerned, infinite black levels would be such a breakthrough that that would certainly be a compelling reason to upgrade from old plasmas.

My main question is, will even first generation OLED displays outclass the Pioneer Kuros and new Panasonic plasmas in terms of black level and contrast ratio? Beyond that, exactly what other aspects of picture quality will be superior over the best plasmas?



Thanks for responding. Although I am happy with my Pioneer, I am looking for what will ultimately be my next upgrade and I am curious about OLED displays, especially those coming out this year and next.
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post #10 of 145 Old 01-16-2013, 11:48 PM
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I feel like I am reading last year's thread.

And yet there is still no OLED shipping.
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There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #11 of 145 Old 01-16-2013, 11:57 PM
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post #12 of 145 Old 01-17-2013, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrodefeld View Post

I was referring to the CES prototype Pioneer demoed at CES in 2008 which DID produce infinite black. Yes the last Kuros came up short of this prototype, but my point was that the tech that Pioneer was using to make the Kuros was capable of achieving the ultimate contrast ratio. Now, if Pioneer was not forced to exit the plasma business, how amazing would their displays be today?

My understanding was they simply didn't have the time to develop a mass production model with the "ultimate contrast" tech inside it. If they were still making plasmas, I would suspect they would have achieved it, perhaps even a couple of years ago.


As for OLED, are you saying that ALL OLED displays produce infinite black? Or simply that the tech has the potential to do that? As far as picture quality is concerned, infinite black levels would be such a breakthrough that that would certainly be a compelling reason to upgrade from old plasmas.

My main question is, will even first generation OLED displays outclass the Pioneer Kuros and new Panasonic plasmas in terms of black level and contrast ratio? Beyond that, exactly what other aspects of picture quality will be superior over the best plasmas?



Thanks for responding. Although I am happy with my Pioneer, I am looking for what will ultimately be my next upgrade and I am curious about OLED displays, especially those coming out this year and next.

All oled panels can produce infinite black. No bells and whistles...just that black....is black. Id be more concerned with burn in though...it IS prone to it.
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post #13 of 145 Old 01-17-2013, 06:46 AM
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rolleyes.gif
my HTC phone showing black on its oled-screen really isnt visible in a room with no lights. That's black.

hm
or like "The black sleeve prompted guitarist Nigel Tufnel to utter the now-famous quote, "It's like, 'how much more black could this be?' and the answer is 'None. None more black.'""

I want my next TV to have "smell the glove"-blacklevel. I got me an st50 and I think I can smell some leather in a not too far away distance somewhere.
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post #14 of 145 Old 02-20-2014, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by yamvmax View Post


All oled panels can produce infinite black. No bells and whistles...just that black....is black. Id be more concerned with burn in though...it IS prone to it.

 

BULLSHEEEEEEEET. Here's an unbiased proof http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Samsung-Galaxy-Note-3-SM-N9005-Smartphone.104798.0.html. OLED can't go any higher than 3500 thousand of real contrast (the darkest gray, blue, red, green to the whitest white, brightest blue, red, green) where as Pioneer's Kuro darkest red was somewhere in ballpark of 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 to the brightest red, but it was never in fact infinite and it was never released. Any modern plasma's real contrast the darkest red to the brightest red is 30000-100000, but unlike plasmas OLEDs can turn off pixels thus producing true black and infinite contrast to white meaning that in movies with sidebars it'll boost contrast significantly making it seem higher than any plasma's, but in 16:9 movies where there's no black involved OLED will look worse than any plasma. However some LED full array LCD have real contrast of few millions and still have worse overall PQ than plasma's due to poor viewing angles, blooming and color reproduction i.e 8 bit colors whereas plasmas can go as high as 64, but in reality it's usually 32 to 42 bits to color. I'm not even talking about how sh!!!!!tty OLED's motion is. So if you watch a lot of cinemascope movies OLED is for you, but if you watch a lot of sports channels and widescreen content and play plenty of video games than plasma for you. By the way, it's a real shame that plasma is silently slipping into other world of dead and forgotten


LCD SUX DIX
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post #15 of 145 Old 02-20-2014, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by stas3098 View Post

BULLSHEEEEEEEET. Here's an unbiased proof http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Samsung-Galaxy-Note-3-SM-N9005-Smartphone.104798.0.html. OLED can't go any higher than 3500 thousand of real contrast (the darkest gray, blue, red, green to the whitest white, brightest blue, red, green) where as Pioneer's Kuro darkest red was somewhere in ballpark of 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 to the brightest red, but it was never in fact infinite and it was never released. Any modern plasma's real contrast the darkest red to the brightest red is 30000-100000, but unlike plasmas OLEDs can turn off pixels thus producing true black and infinite contrast to white meaning that in movies with sidebars it'll boost contrast significantly making it seem higher than any plasma's, but in 16:9 movies where there's no black involved OLED will look worse than any plasma. However some LED full array LCD have real contrast of few millions and still have worse overall PQ than plasma's due to poor viewing angles, blooming and color reproduction i.e 8 bit colors whereas plasmas can go as high as 64, but in reality it's usually 32 to 42 bits to color. I'm not even talking about how sh!!!!!tty OLED's motion is. So if you watch a lot of cinemascope movies OLED is for you, but if you watch a lot of sports channels and widescreen content and play plenty of video games than plasma for you. By the way, it's a real shame that plasma is silently slipping into other world of dead and forgotten

what you're describing, sounds to me like they've solved every problem i have with black levels on todays displays.


i mean seriously, when have you looked at a bright image on screen and thought the blacks looked washed out? i have never thought that. if they can turn PIXELS off(as opposed to 'zones' like with FALD) then that's perfect in my book.

i will however agree with you about plasma. i had always hoped oled would be the end of LCD's, not plasma
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post #16 of 145 Old 02-20-2014, 07:38 AM
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I was checking out side by side the Samsung Plasma, vs the VT60, ZT60. Watching Russian olympic hockey with as close to similar settings in a local store here.
The area was dark but not black.

The OLED I found in some scenes produced really nice greens against blacks, or reds, etc. However same exact feed the OLED I could not stand as close to and get as sharp an image.

On motion when the hockey puck shot across the ice you could see trails on the OLED but not the Plasmas.
In terms of blackness it was hard to call but to my eyes the overall picture looked best on the ZT60, then the VT. I was hard pressed between the ZT and VT.

If I could only swing the cash for the ZT it would be gone in a second but I think I will be stuck with the VT60 55.
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post #17 of 145 Old 02-20-2014, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by jrodefeld View Post

Hello everyone,

With the news from CES showing the first large screen OLED displays coming to market this year, I was wondering what that means for current high end plasma owners. Surely OLED is the future technology everyone is talking about, but is it absolutely superior to plasma or what plasma is capable of producing?

I ask because I, like many here, own a Pioneer Kuro display and have been happy with it since I bought it. I still only have an 8th generation model, but I have seen the 9th gen Kuros and am well aware of what Pioneer was able to achieve with plasma technology.

So, does OLED only have the potential to be better than the best plasma, or will almost any OLED be clearly superior to any plasma?

And what exactly makes it superior? Remember, I have talking only about picture quality, not screen depth, or energy consumption or any other aspect of the tech. Black levels have been touted as being superior, but Pioneer basically was able to achieve truly infinite black levels with plasma tech. They were forced to shut down before they were able to mass produce a display with infinite contrast, but the last ones they made are still amazing (KRP-500m).

http://www.popsci.com/files/typepad/popsci.typepad.com/popsci/2008/01/pioneer-invents.html

Contrast and black levels are surely one of the most important aspects of picture quality and even if OLED excels, they cannot surpass infinite black. And Pioneer Kuro tech is capable of achieving it.


And we know that the upcoming Panasonic plasmas, especially the ZT60 is a huge improvement over last years plasmas and might finally be the equal of the best Kuros.


So I am a little confused about what exactly makes OLED inherently superior to plasma with regards to picture quality? There might even be untapped potential in plasma technology that could be exploited. And until OLED screens become priced close to current high end plasmas, I would think it reasonable for manufacturers to continue to push plasma tech as far as they can.


So what I am asking is: If money was no object, would the OLED screens being released this year be the best displays ever made? Will they clearly outclass, say, the Pioneer KRP-500m?

Do you anticipate the technology taking many years to get the kinks worked out and get the picture quality up to par, or will even this years OLED screens be mature enough tech wise to dominate the competition?



In a perfect world, I would love to get an 80" 4K OLED display. Of course today, such a display would probably cost more than $30,000! While I regularly see very low hours KRP-500m's for sale for $1500.


So what is your opinion on plasma vs OLED? If the prices were not as high, or you didn't care about the price, would you upgrade your plasma to an OLED display this year?


Thanks so much. I look forward to reading the responses.

Yes, OLED's PICTURE QUALITY are superior than any plasmas.
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post #18 of 145 Old 02-20-2014, 08:11 AM
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Yes, OLED's PICTURE QUALITY are superior than any plasmas.

That may be but I could not be any happier than I am now with the ST60 we bought in mid November. I was the one hesitant to get it, even cancelled the first order placed on BestBuy.com but hubby talked me into it. He was concerned that if we were to wait it would be impossible to find one. It is our first plasma coming from a very nice Sony HD crt (which we still have and use for gaming and certain sports programming with static images)

So after checking the Black Friday ad scans on the web to be sure it wasn't going on sale for BF (Which I figured it wouldn't as BF is the day retailers love to foist crap LED's on the public biggrin.gif) I placed another order online and we were at the store picking up our new tv in an hour.

Believe me, I'm a cheapskate but this is one purchase in which there have been ZERO regrets. Best $$ spent in a long time. My only point is OLED's may be the be all and end all of tv PQ but I really don't care wink.gif

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post #19 of 145 Old 02-20-2014, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

The big question is, just like last year will the OLED even be released ?

LG appears to be one of the only companies making a commitment to release OLEDs during 2014. Unfortunately all their displays will be curved, except one. For anyone considering the substantial monetary sum to purchase one of these displays I recommend looking for these features: 1) 4K UHD, 2) HEVC H.265 support 3) HDMI 2.0 compatible.
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post #20 of 145 Old 02-20-2014, 10:22 AM
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Yes, OLED's PICTURE QUALITY are superior than any plasmas.

Not in every area, just yet as noted with the motion.
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post #21 of 145 Old 02-20-2014, 01:32 PM
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BULLSHEEEEEEEET. Here's an unbiased proof http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Samsung-Galaxy-Note-3-SM-N9005-Smartphone.104798.0.html. OLED can't go any higher than 3500 thousand of real contrast (the darkest gray, blue, red, green to the whitest white, brightest blue, red, green) where as Pioneer's Kuro darkest red was somewhere in ballpark of 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 to the brightest red, but it was never in fact infinite and it was never released. Any modern plasma's real contrast the darkest red to the brightest red is 30000-100000, but unlike plasmas OLEDs can turn off pixels thus producing true black and infinite contrast to white meaning that in movies with sidebars it'll boost contrast significantly making it seem higher than any plasma's, but in 16:9 movies where there's no black involved OLED will look worse than any plasma. However some LED full array LCD have real contrast of few millions and still have worse overall PQ than plasma's due to poor viewing angles, blooming and color reproduction i.e 8 bit colors whereas plasmas can go as high as 64, but in reality it's usually 32 to 42 bits to color. I'm not even talking about how sh!!!!!tty OLED's motion is. So if you watch a lot of cinemascope movies OLED is for you, but if you watch a lot of sports channels and widescreen content and play plenty of video games than plasma for you. By the way, it's a real shame that plasma is silently slipping into other world of dead and forgotten


I agree, "infinite" black is impossible to achieve.  You can maybe achieve some ratio so high it may be "fun" to call it infinite, but its not infinite unless there is a small black hole hidden in your panel, which I highly doubt.

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post #22 of 145 Old 02-20-2014, 02:57 PM
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I agree, "infinite" black is impossible to achieve.  You can maybe achieve some ratio so high it may be "fun" to call it infinite, but its not infinite unless there is a small black hole hidden in your panel, which I highly doubt.
I also believe that Samsung's phones due not shut off black pixels but actually still keep them lit to where they are not off for the reason it would take to long to completely shut them off and then come out of black quickly since they would need to relight. At least this is how their phones used to be up to the S3. Not sure if anything changed in the S4 with their tech. Also, on a total black screen you would see these kind of blobs in a total darkened room. Not sure if they is also something that effects their TV's.

Supposedly LG uses a different OLED tech so I cannot speak to that.
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post #23 of 145 Old 02-20-2014, 03:19 PM
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If plasma could get fully stable blacks below 0.0001 fL., OLED would have no advantage over plasma (well, other than power efficiency and lighter weight).
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post #24 of 145 Old 02-20-2014, 04:28 PM
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I also believe that Samsung's phones due not shut off black pixels but actually still keep them lit to where they are not off for the reason it would take to long to completely shut them off and then come out of black quickly since they would need to relight. At least this is how their phones used to be up to the S3. Not sure if anything changed in the S4 with their tech. Also, on a total black screen you would see these kind of blobs in a total darkened room. Not sure if they is also something that effects their TV's.

Supposedly LG uses a different OLED tech so I cannot speak to that.

Their TVs are either plasma or LCD so if it occurs on an OLED screen it would have no relevance to either.  They do not currently sell an OLED tv do they?

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They both do/did, yes. Samsung looks to be pulling out for now, but LG still has their 55" OLED readily available for purchase. Both companies released OLED TVs beginning last summer.
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post #26 of 145 Old 02-20-2014, 04:41 PM
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They both do/did, yes. Samsung looks to be pulling out for now, but LG still has their 55" OLED readily available for purchase. Both companies released OLED TVs beginning last summer.

Yep, and the all reviews are positive. smile.gif
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post #27 of 145 Old 02-20-2014, 05:54 PM
 
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If plasma could get fully stable blacks below 0.0001 fL., OLED would have no advantage over plasma

i agree
if only they could.
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post #28 of 145 Old 02-24-2014, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by 807recordings View Post

Not in every area, just yet as noted with the motion.


I will revise this after I was checking out the LG55 OLED this weekend. Compared to the Samsung it had far superior motion (or settings) and comparable to the Plasma. I could go equally close and I must say the blacks and colours at first where not so mind blowing but after watching for a few mins and then going back it was very much superior. However the 55 looked like it was a 42 and I had to actually measure it to believe it was a 55 inch. The curve really does make it look a lot smaller, and although the Samsung was no longer there to compare against I don't seem to recall it feeling so small. Still I don't trust memory bias so take it for what its worth.

A 77 with the option to bend would really be an awesome display, especially if they can make it in 4K.
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post #29 of 145 Old 03-01-2014, 07:14 AM
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I too am a kuro elite owner and i want best possible picture , it was time for a new tv purchase , oled can be had about 7 grand but the fact that motion is crap i decided to get a plasma under $1k and it would hold up until oled has improved (2nd or 3rd gen)

i got 60" pn 5350 costco version of PN605300.


based on this review Motion is a real problem with current lg oled tvs

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/ke55s9c-201310273395.htm

this model beats the pioneer in every aspect except motion .. the ke55s9c is on par with lcd in terms of motion because it uses some kind of sample and hold

actual lines is 300 natively .
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Samsung offers two solutions to combat motion blurring on the S9C OLED TV, both operating on the principle of reducing the amount of time each frame is displayed to our retina. The first is motion-compensated frame interpolation (MCFI) where intermediate frames are artificially inserted between the original frames to shorten the refresh cycle. You can enable MCFI on the KE55S9C by engaging one of the three [Motion Plus] presets (there’s no need to go higher than “Clear” according to our observations), or even better, by choosing [Motion Plus] “Custom” which allows the deblur and dejudder components to be adjusted independently of each other.

Pioneer Elite PRO-111
Samsung 60PnF5300 af
panasonic px75u

XBL x117x831
PS4 gusx831
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post #30 of 145 Old 03-01-2014, 07:43 AM
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Thats the only thing that puts me off OLED right now, I couldn't wall mount it. Though, that Samsung KE55S9C external frame seems strangely bizarre. Makes me think of weird handles. However, it looks lovely when you see the parts with the remotes. I like the slight angle to the frame.

How does the Samsung KE55S9C look when in standby? Does the screen match the bezel? You wouldn't know where the screen is except the ridge of the bevel? Do they even make screens where it looks like a solid black rectangle when off?

I'd personally love it if these TVs were all solid black. Bezel to screen, no ridges or slight variations in black frame to black screen. So that when text lights up thats all you see. Plus Moth Eye. That would be truly an art piece in the house. Of course, with silver trim.
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