Is it the resolution, or the quality of the panel - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 19 Old 01-16-2013, 11:15 AM - Thread Starter
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I have the 43" E450 Samsung ( 720p) and 50" TC-P50U50 (1080p) set up side by side hooked up to Dish HD
I am seeing a quality difference despite the claims by many that at normal viewing distance on should not be able to see the difference between 720p and 1080p

Note I have a smaller room and can only be max about 8 feet back from any screen, I wanted smaller but LCD/LED look terrible on Dish HD even after 2 techs checking the set ups and trying many brands and quality in that tech. The issues I have are less noticed with plasma.


The one issue is that the I can not find a 42" 1080p plasma to compare to. Best buy had an open box 50" so I pushed it back about 1.5' to help compensate for the size issue.

THe P50u50 is set about 1.5 feet back, and still looks sharper believe me, I wanted it not to be true in some ways since I kept reading the eye cant see the difference. . Yes it is close at 7+ feet,but there is a difference noticed. E450 just looks softer in faces. Watching faces on the 1080p panel set at 8 feet, I could see detail that was softened on the 720 panel. Side by side I would go with the 50" but I still have an issue with the size of the panel for the room. Plus I was not able to get the flesh tones right P50u50 and whites still are a bit gray compared to the 43" E450. I have found various settings on the net and tried WOW, but still not qite getting it to be ideal to my eye. However that said, still there is a sharpness on the 1080p not present in the other. The P50u50 has some hot spots even thoug the blacks are better some areas in the whites are getting blown out even though the whites are on the gray side. Also shes tones are on the greener side it appears. But as I said, even so, there is a sharpness not in the E450 at the current settings.

I am debating how much how this is due to resolution or how much of this is the quality in the panel.
that is creating what apears to be sharper detail. But I still think I am seeing a more defined detail even thoug the TV is pushed back further.

So much of the softness is due to the panel quality vs the resolution of the panel?
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post #2 of 19 Old 01-16-2013, 11:53 AM
 
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Man what a sad story, all I have to say to this depression is the fact of how happy I am that I found a 50" 500M Kuro for $1,000 on Craigslist 2yrs ago... But keep in mind all TV providers give you a highly compressed image, with bad pixel quality, I regularly see pixels that are 0.3*0.3 inches in size; mainly during fast content, but it's annoying. Regarding your brightness/darkness issues, I'd say you can't really compare one manufacturer to another, because each is independent, with different X, Y & Z's...

The sad truth is that most TV's aren't that great, and if you want the opposite, then you've got to dish out big cash for it -- or buy used [as I did].

...A week ago I considered trading my 50" Kuro for a 70" Samsung LED, but then I realized I didn't want to trade size for PQ. ...Sometimes when you've got it good, you should stick with it, but in your case I'd blame it 100% on the TV; 720p vs 1080 & different processing can make all the difference. I haven't looked at either of the TV's you've mentioned so I can't really comment more.
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post #3 of 19 Old 01-16-2013, 12:44 PM
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When comparing entry level models, most Panasonic plasmas I've seen on display, in general, look a bit sharper then the Samsung's, at least to me. However the Samsung's seem to offer a bit better contrast and color accuracy. Panasonic is offering a new 1080p 42'' panel, available in February.


http://shop.panasonic.com/shop/model/TC-P42S60


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post #4 of 19 Old 01-16-2013, 04:22 PM
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It should look sharper since it has about 2.6 times the pixels:) Another thing, the panels may change a bit for the good after about a hundred hours.
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post #5 of 19 Old 01-16-2013, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whipit View Post

It should look sharper since it has about 2.6 times the pixels:)


Despite that fact, unless you are looking at a larger set (which are all 1080p today anyway) or sitting fairly close to a smaller screen, your eyes aren't capable of noticing much difference, even with true 1080p Blu-Ray.


Joseph Kane, founder of JKP Productions and creator of the Digital Video Essentials video calibration discs, writes to separate facts from fiction:
Quote:
There is a limit to how much detail we can see, therefore there is a point where the picture elements (pixels) will be so small they can’t be seen. There is a threshold of picture size where the detail in a 1080p image would be lost. At a fixed viewing distance based on a ratio of the image width to the viewing distance the minimum picture size to see a 1080p image is larger than for 720p. While most of the numbers for the size of the display at which this threshold occurs are small, we’re taking a completely different approach to image size. We believe a 1080p image has to be at least five feet wide and viewed from about 1.4 times the picture width before you can begin to appreciate what is in a high-quality1080p image.


Keep in mind that Kane's opinion is rather subjective, but his point is well taken. Once you get into HD the differences in sharpness are more subtle then what their pixel count may suggest.

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Originally Posted by whipit View Post

Another thing, the panels may change a bit for the good after about a hundred hours.


I agree. However, in the final analysis, several factors have to be also taken into consideration, such as contrast, brightness, greyscale, motion resolution, and color processing. Personally, even 720p Panasonic's look a bit sharper then 720p Samsung's to me, but I would still have to give a slight edge to Samsung for over all picture quality..


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post #6 of 19 Old 01-17-2013, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Mailiang, Yes I have read stuff like that but I would have to say I see a difference. It is crazy for Kane to demand someone sit further way until they match up. Smaller/more pixels means I should be able to site CLOSER.
Kanes suggestion is like telling me to squint in one eye until it matches the other eye.

OK lets test his theory. 50" x 1.4 sets me back just under 6 feet. 43" x 1.4 puts me at a little over 5 feet


Well that worked out to exactly to what I have the TVs set at distance wise if I sit on the end of the seat!

So actually I AM seeing a difference at the proper differeneces taking accout for the size. and even another foot or two back can see the Panonsic does look sharper.

I understand the comments about the difficulty of comparing different brands. But I would also think comparing a 720 Pan vs 1080 Pan of the SAME size would also raise questions as they are different tech in each.


So i guess I am still not sure if it is the larger panel is just "better" or if the sharpness is because it it is a better resolution.

Based on the Kane quote, it would be the panel quality not the resolution difference since they are both set at their proper view distance and I can see an improvement HD shows.


BTW, I move in 2 feet I am starting to see the defects I saw on LCD in motion in faces. So I can saw some of the IMPROVENT I saw with plasma was in part due to looking at 720p TVs and the 720/1080i strreams. the dish stream better blends, even with the box set to 1080i on the 720 TV. (did not have any differnece in 720p vs 1080i set on the dish box)
I guess the matching of resolution makes a larger difference. It hought the larger TV was supposed to scale up.

Yes plasma is still better at dislaying this "junk" but now seeing that it is there on the 1080 set but harder to notice on the 720p due to less pixels, I am not so sure I want to stick with plasma.


I hope I a not confusing anyone. My main issue with switching to plasma was that LED/LCD was not really displaying network TV very well and the HD stations had a SOFT or what I say is out of focus look.
I had a size/space issue so went with 42" plasma then the 43" . I thought all my isues were fixed and curious about higher res plasma. but it does seem like some of the isuse is in part that 1080p is still going to show the defects more than the 720p. I am not sure it is worth spending more , having more weight, daytime glare, and higher energy use, less bright if it really is the dish signal quality.

What is interesting is how even with all that said, on the better broadcasts, the 1080p does look sharper. I still am not quite sure if it is in part due to a better panel or blacks or the resolution that is making the difference. Logic says more pixels it should be sharpter but with the statements reposted above it is NOT supposed to be noticed at the proper distances.
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post #7 of 19 Old 01-17-2013, 01:14 PM
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It's very hard to compare panels from different manufacturers just in terms of sharpness. As I mentioned, there are so many factors that effect picture quality. Based on the reviews and what I've seen, the 1080p Pannys offer the best bang for your buck in terms of over all picture quality even when compared to many more expensive LCD's, but it's a mute point if you are currently not in the market for a new TV. I suggest you get a good calibration disc like video essentials and calibrate both sets properly. Also, what picture modes are you using? Most pros recommend Cinema or Movie for the best accuracy, but on some sets it will look a bit softer as well. Setting your Dish box top to 1080i rather then native for a 768p TV risks the introduction of artifacts like jaggies/stair stepping due to double scaling on 720p broadcasting.



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post #8 of 19 Old 01-18-2013, 09:44 PM - Thread Starter
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The Samsung E450 they only have 3 modes. So I calibrated with WOW and AVS and then by pesonal preference withhe Panasonic side by side in MOVIE mode.

ON the Panasonic I tried Cinema mode but thought it looke dull and dark. I prefered the CUSTOM mode.

This was something that surprised me. Why do they make MODES with different hidden specs rather than than modes all being equally able to calibrate? That is, YOu could put the same settings in Custom and Cinema and they will not be the SAME. There are hidden settings for the mode. I do enjoy that each HDMI can take different settings. I found that broadcast and blue ray are different enough to need this. However it did take me for ride of confusion since after setting to the caibration disk and then plugging in a blu ray in the othe port, I thought my settings wer reset.


I will say that I watched the latest Batman and in the jail scene the the blind man sitting against the wall talking about fear, even though the panasonic appeared darker, I could see much more detail in the stone walls on the far left. On the Samsung, it was so dark that it just looked like dark shadow. On the Panasonic you see it was a wall.

So I turned up the brightness on the Samsung and played with the black tone setting and while I coudl get it up, the detail was not there.

Again I wonder if that is in part because the Samsung is 720p. But I would guess you would say the Panasonic is just better.


Now what I notice side by side is each has its own issues with colors.

For instance, the Samsung reds and blues are HOT/vidid and the Panasonic yellow and green is hotter/vivid. On the panasonic the flesh tones were more green or yellow. I had two turn the tint down but then that makes the reds tones off like orange.
Example an and for Resse cups came up and on the Samsung it came up with the distinct orange color we know is correct but maybe it was a bit too hot/saturated however onthe Panasonic, since I was trying to make hte flesh tones less yellow (I am set on NATUAL in the color settings) the orange was not the correct color.
It is too bad they limit the settings to color and tint. My lap top has more control than these tvs.


Seems like there can be tweaking,



I have not noticed any difference in playing 720 or 1080i on either of the TVs. What I have noticed on both is more interlaced lines when fast motion but mostly on commericals.
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post #9 of 19 Old 01-19-2013, 02:30 AM
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I gave my procedure for calibrating samsung pne450 by comparing it to an iPad in the Pne450 thread.If you could find a place to rent one and you have a VERY GOOD EYE for colors and are experienced ,it's an option.

Turn off all extra settings,I find gamma 0 the best.Turn off the black level setting.Turn up the contrast to around 85-95 and then turn up brightness as high as you can get it without washing out the picture.Takes a bit of practice.I have some black crush on mine and I can't get rid of it.

Have it in warm 2 ,movie mode,and lower the red gain possibly/ or raise it Up,and reduce red bias 3-7 So it takes some of the redness away if the darks look overly red when color is turned down. The lights and darks should all look the same color.Have to have a good eye or I would not bother with it.

Or see if you can get it calibrated with a 30 -60 day satisfaction guarantee.
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post #10 of 19 Old 01-19-2013, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
ON the Panasonic I tried Cinema mode but thought it looke dull and dark. I prefered the CUSTOM mode.
This was something that surprised me. Why do they make MODES with different hidden specs rather than than modes all being equally able to calibrate? That is, YOu could put the same settings in Custom and Cinema and they will not be the SAME. There are hidden settings for the mode. I do enjoy that each HDMI can take different settings. I found that broadcast and blue ray are different enough to need this. However it did take me for ride of confusion since after setting to the caibration disk and then plugging in a blu ray in the othe port, I thought my settings wer reset.


I only use cinema on my Panasonic. It is the one mode that provides me with the best picture in terms of color saturation, gamma, and accuracy. I found this article recently from a professional calibrator, and although it's a few years old, his observations and recommendations are still worth considering today.



http://elephantav.wordpress.com/technical-articles/display-screen-calibration-is-it-necessary/



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post #11 of 19 Old 01-19-2013, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Vic, I will take a look at the thread. With the Samung I am using the 43" just to be clear. I do not know if there is a difference in the larger E450 in quality or software adjustments.

I was only explaining how I could see more detail and in better form on the panasonic and still wondering if the difference is due to the extra size, the quality or resolution difference.
I could bump up the brightness to get those dark area details to show but at a sacrifice in look as it would then have that grayed cast more htan sharpness. The Panasonic blacks were still there yet deatail in the shadows were there. ie on the Dark Night movie the stone wall continuted almost to the end of the left side of the screen but on the other it faded to shadow black.

I like theSamsung panel but side by side did show the differences.


As for setting the red is this in the white balance section?
I did nto fully understand how to work with the "offsets" I used some posting on AVS to set it at one point. However I like the reds where they were since it was not that it was making OTHER parts look off. So my flesh tones look fine and the reds just are move vivid than on the panasoinic while the panasonic panel the greens and yellows are brighter than on the Samsung by default. I first noticed this watching side by side with weather maps.

panasonic is more limited in adjustmenst. I do not see a way to play with individual colors. Just color and tint.

I would say at first I thougtht he E450 was doing a far better job with blacks than LCD and was doing a great job with DISH netowrks crappy broadcasts.
However now seeing that in part it is that 720p plasma matches their signal better, and that I see some of the same quality issues when watching on a larger 1080p panel, that I am only fixing one issue over he other. I will loose something by sticking with 720p for Blu rays.

I could be wrong, maybe the Samsung can be calibrated to match the panasonic but I think what I am seeing from playing around, the Panasonic will display more detail while keeping the blacks.


I just did a test, calibrated to my liking, it runs at close or over 300 watts. Yes it jumps around quite a bit but it worked otu to about 2 KWH 12 ours of use.

Since I was not looking at 50" panels for my room initially, I am not sure I am sold yet on plasma for this one draw back along. If the defects in the fa720ces vanished in plasma, I would say I would gladly pay more for that but it seemed I was fooled by the 720 p panel matchign up better with the 720 plasma.
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post #12 of 19 Old 01-19-2013, 10:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Ian,

Best Buy had two floor models of a 720 P panasonic running side by side. They told me one was calibrated and the other was not. According to them I I picked the wrong one. I guess we have our own likes bu the calibrated one looked dark washed out, whites looked gray. I see this in Cinema mode on many TVs as well, dark and not very bright. Iguess they assume cinema or movie mode, you are always going to wach in a black room. I do no see how this is the most commone viewing mode.

On the Samsung Movie mode though is the mode I got best resutls with with Standard being dim and lacked contrast and ECO mode a joke they must put in there just to get the EG rating. I have no clue how one watches TV in Eco or Standard.

At least the Samsung has more adjustments. the panasonic does not have more the tint, color and some the warm cool settings.

I do not see what the big deal is in giving consumers the access to adjust their colors and give RESET setting if they screw it up.

But really the purpose of of this topic , for me, was the weather the Panasonic is just better at displaying finer detail and if so, if that is mostly becaue the panel as more resolution , because the pixesl are larger due to larger screen or because it is just better over all. That is, if I ffound a 42" 1080p would I see some of what is in the Panasonic but lost in the 720 samsung?
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post #13 of 19 Old 01-19-2013, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markstar View Post

Ian,

Best Buy had two floor models of a 720 P panasonic running side by side. They told me one was calibrated and the other was not. According to them I I picked the wrong one. I guess we have our own likes bu the calibrated one looked dark washed out, whites looked gray. I see this in Cinema mode on many TVs as well, dark and not very bright. Iguess they assume cinema or movie mode, you are always going to wach in a black room. I do no see how this is the most commone viewing mode.

On the Samsung Movie mode though is the mode I got best resutls with with Standard being dim and lacked contrast and ECO mode a joke they must put in there just to get the EG rating. I have no clue how one watches TV in Eco or Standard.

At least the Samsung has more adjustments. the panasonic does not have more the tint, color and some the warm cool settings.

I do not see what the big deal is in giving consumers the access to adjust their colors and give RESET setting if they screw it up.

But really the purpose of of this topic , for me, was the weather the Panasonic is just better at displaying finer detail and if so, if that is mostly becaue the panel as more resolution , because the pixesl are larger due to larger screen or because it is just better over all. That is, if I ffound a 42" 1080p would I see some of what is in the Panasonic but lost in the 720 samsung?


Actually the pixels are larger in a 720p set. That being said, my Panny is just as bright in the cinema mode as it is in the other modes once I tweaked it a bit. Like I posted before, since there are so many factors that will effect the outcome that your looking for, it's going to be hard to answer your question definitively. When the new Panny 42'' 1080p comes out next month try to find one on display and check it out. I assume it will look similar to the U50. However, if you're looking to get the best of both TV's, in terms of color accuracy and sharpness, you will probably have to invest in a higher end set.


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post #14 of 19 Old 01-19-2013, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Ian,
I do have some concerns that Panasonic as not any specs of the set due to ship only in weeks. If it is ready to go, why not publish the specs and features and any improvements?

I saw someplace but forget who said it, but there is a chance it will not come out.
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post #15 of 19 Old 01-19-2013, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markstar View Post

Ian,
I do have some concerns that Panasonic as not any specs of the set due to ship only in weeks. If it is ready to go, why not publish the specs and features and any improvements?

I saw someplace but forget who said it, but there is a chance it will not come out.


Manufacturer specs aren't really going to help you choose a TV. However, seeing is believing.wink.gif



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post #16 of 19 Old 01-19-2013, 04:20 PM - Thread Starter
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True Ian but I would like to know what they are claiming to have improved, if anything like deeper blacks, brighter whites, lower power use, less glare, less power use, ect. I want to know if it isworth the wait.
The only thing I was able to find was it will have wifi and I think some smart features.
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post #17 of 19 Old 01-19-2013, 07:32 PM
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Every tv has problems in varying amounts , and if you can calibrate it really good(especially on a plasma) you can improve it depending how good you are at it and how good the calibration equipment is..plasmas one minute it looks like a 10000 $ tv and the next it's looking washed out with the auto bright limiter.LCD you have viewing angle washout and motion problems on some of them..The more money you spend will help but the tv will still have problems.It would not surprise me that One reason prices have come down so much on plasma tvs is because of the abl,but I could be wrong.
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post #18 of 19 Old 01-19-2013, 08:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah but my friend has a 42" LED panel with what I think is called IPS and viewing angles are not an issue from what I saw.
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post #19 of 19 Old 01-19-2013, 11:52 PM
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Ips are very good from side angles for LCD led but if it's up high then it shows some fading washout.

I've got my plasma up A few feet higher than eye level and It helps because you don't see the reflection of every person watching tv in the room.
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