Where is my (our) Kuro replacement? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 501 Old 01-18-2013, 07:32 AM - Thread Starter
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My opportunity (and excuse) to open this thread was a letter of a Home Theater Magazine reader in the December issue, who also took the opportunity from a Tom Norton's review in the magazine. The reviewer in his August 2012 review of the Panasonic TC-P65VT50 wrote that:

"...Why do we so often insist on comparing a set under review to an HDTV you can no longer buy? Because in the three years since the Pioneer Kuro departed the HDTV scene, there has not yet been another set that can equal or better it in all respects, most particularly in black level. Bringing that up may frustrate the reader, though it reminds manufacturers that they still have a way to go..."

I have also a Pioneer 9th generation Kuro PDP-LX6090H set (60"). It's the European version of the latest - before the KRP-600, which was the last production model of the 9th generation Kuros - and I still can't find anywhere its blacks and its superb color gamut. Perhaps my previous 38" Sony Kirara Basso CRT had a similar or better black, but that was an analog CRT model of limited size and resolution and it cannot be compared with the Kuros.

Today, the technology behind the electronics and the manufacturing of the flat panels has progressed even more. The widely spread 3D sets, as well as those of 4K (to come), show that there is progress. I don't think that the makers cannot do flat panels with the same and even better blacks and colors than the Kuros. They are certainly able to do so. I would also say that this can be done at a fraction of cost of that of the Kuros.

So, why we have not yet seen a better "Kuro"?

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Happy New Year to all.
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post #2 of 501 Old 01-18-2013, 07:44 AM
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Panny zt60...its coming....the vt was damn close, but better overall IMO.
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post #3 of 501 Old 01-19-2013, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panayotis Melas View Post

Today, the technology behind the electronics and the manufacturing of the flat panels has progressed even more. The widely spread 3D sets, as well as those of 4K (to come), show that there is progress. I don't think that the makers cannot do flat panels with the same and even better blacks and colors than the Kuros. They are certainly able to do so. I would also say that this can be done at a fraction of cost of that of the Kuros.

So, why we have not yet seen a better "Kuro"?

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Its a different world now. Panasonic is producing plasmas under different regulations.I just think its insane people are more focused Kuro blacks not being match instead on the fact Panasonic is doing some amazing things for a hell of a lot cheaper and also a bit bigger. I mean how much were Kuro's going for in the stores....6 grand or something like that?

Pioneer stopped making Kuro's for a reason. I think everyone should be very happy that Panasonic is offering similar performance for half the price.
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post #4 of 501 Old 01-19-2013, 07:17 PM
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The ZT will at least match a Kuro black levels. I can almost guarantee that. The VT50 was reviewed as very close to Kuro levels and the VT model in general i believe was considered to have a better color gamut since I believe the VT30. The Kuro technology has been surpassed. Only thing left is black levels and that's the end. My prediction is Panasonic will reign Plasma King this year. Too bad no 70 inch models.

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post #5 of 501 Old 01-20-2013, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Semp1 View Post

The ZT will at least match a Kuro black levels. I can almost guarantee that. The VT50 was reviewed as very close to Kuro levels and the VT model in general i believe was considered to have a better color gamut since I believe the VT30. The Kuro technology has been surpassed. Only thing left is black levels and that's the end. My prediction is Panasonic will reign Plasma King this year. Too bad no 70 inch models.

I too think maby the ZT60 will match the kuro in blacks this year, but honestly, that it is said every year. And it always turns out that it comes close just barely.

And I've never heard of the vt having better color that the kuros. You have a link for that?

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post #6 of 501 Old 01-20-2013, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Bubbleboyjones View Post

Its a different world now. Panasonic is producing plasmas under different regulations.I just think its insane people are more focused Kuro blacks not being match instead on the fact Panasonic is doing some amazing things for a hell of a lot cheaper and also a bit bigger. I mean how much were Kuro's going for in the stores....6 grand or something like that?

Pioneer stopped making Kuro's for a reason. I think everyone should be very happy that Panasonic is offering similar performance for half the price.

When people say the kuro hasn't been surpasses still, they aren't just talking about black level. They mean everything. Color, HD video processing, black level etc. just overall PQ. Other sets have come close. Some you can't even really tell a difference. But none has completely beat it in everything. I'm talking 100% obvious better in PQ.

And as a kuro owner this seriously bothers me. The tech is 5 Years old. There should already be a display that clearly kills it in everything. But there are still none. That why I patiently wait for my true upgrade; OLED. 4K too perhaps.

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post #7 of 501 Old 01-20-2013, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Semp1 View Post

The ZT will at least match a Kuro black levels. I can almost guarantee that. The VT50 was reviewed as very close to Kuro levels and the VT model in general i believe was considered to have a better color gamut since I believe the VT30. The Kuro technology has been surpassed. Only thing left is black levels and that's the end. My prediction is Panasonic will reign Plasma King this year. Too bad no 70 inch models.

How can you can guarantee something that isn't currently available? And close is not good enough when you have experienced 500M black levels.

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Originally Posted by saprano View Post

When people say the kuro hasn't been surpasses still, they aren't just talking about black level. They mean everything. Color, HD video processing, black level etc. just overall PQ. Other sets have come close. Some you can't even really tell a difference. But none has completely beat it in everything. I'm talking 100% obvious better in PQ.

And as a kuro owner this seriously bothers me. The tech is 5 Years old. There should already be a display that clearly kills it in everything. But there are still none. That why I patiently wait for my true upgrade; OLED. 4K too perhaps.
Most Kuro --> Sharp converts claim differently, but given the superiority of the VT50 with color reproduction and subsequently winning the shootout, I think it has more to do with confirmation bias.
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post #9 of 501 Old 01-20-2013, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by saprano View Post

When people say the kuro hasn't been surpasses still, they aren't just talking about black level. They mean everything. Color, HD video processing, black level etc. just overall PQ. Other sets have come close. Some you can't even really tell a difference. But none has completely beat it in everything. I'm talking 100% obvious better in PQ.

And as a kuro owner this seriously bothers me. The tech is 5 Years old. There should already be a display that clearly kills it in everything. But there are still none. That why I patiently wait for my true upgrade; OLED. 4K too perhaps.

Do you use the video processing in your display? Most use the processing in their pre/pro or receiver. Much better chips than in the Kuro or any tv. My Denon uses the same chip as the Oppo 95....Anchor Bay I believe. Unless you're using the display speakers but why have a high end tv and do tthat?
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post #10 of 501 Old 01-20-2013, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Most Kuro --> Sharp converts claim differently, but given the superiority of the VT50 with color reproduction and subsequently winning the shootout, I think it has more to do with confirmation bias.


The Sharp is a good set but in no way, imo, does it compare to the kuro. The kuro looks organic, CRT, and celluloid like. It looks natural. The Sharp looks like a high end LCD. Too digital looking for me.
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Do you use the video processing in your display? Most use the processing in their pre/pro or receiver. Much better chips than in the Kuro or any tv. My Denon uses the same chip as the Oppo 95....Anchor Bay I believe. Unless you're using the display speakers but why have a high end tv and do tthat?

I was talking more in the way it handles HD sources.

And yes i do use my 151's speakers. I don't use the HT system for everything. Only for movies.

Plus i like the extra wide look it gives the display. Though the plain monitor look is nice too.

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post #11 of 501 Old 01-20-2013, 04:12 PM
 
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The Sharp is a good set but in no way, imo, does it compare to the kuro. The kuro looks organic, CRT, and celluloid like. It looks natural. The Sharp looks like a high end LCD. Too digital looking for me.
Ken Ross claims you hold the minority opinion of Kuro converts that have switched to Sharp Elites. I have not been able to see one in person unfortunately, but I am leaning toward your way of thinking.
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post #12 of 501 Old 01-20-2013, 04:47 PM
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Its a different world now. Panasonic is producing plasmas under different regulations.

This is a very crucial point many people don't realize. Today's energy regulations have been very difficult for today's plasmas as they thrive on power. This is one of the main reasons nothing matches a Kuro which uses far more power. It's really amazing Panasonic and even Samsung have been able to produce the quality image they do with less and less power every year, so they are making significant technological advances in a certain way.

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post #13 of 501 Old 01-20-2013, 04:55 PM
 
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^That reality is always in the back of my mind but seldom mentioned. smile.gif Thanks to the EPA and other alarmists (carbon's gonna' kill us all!).
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post #14 of 501 Old 01-20-2013, 05:00 PM
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Plus it makes more financial sense to make good TVs that are affordable then to make high-end, expensive to produce sets that don't sell as much.

'Kuro blacks' is kind of a vague statement too. There have been several generations of Kuro Elite plasmas and all but the 9G+ Kuro Elites have been surpassed in terms of MLL. I don't doubt for a second that the ZT60 will at least match the 9G Kuro (or maybe even the F8500), but I'm not so sure about the 9.5G Kuro. With that said, were talking small differences here where only the biggest videophiles will care.

Some other areas I hope Panasonic to improve on, are with video processing, gradations/dither and susceptibility to IR. The VT50 already has reference color.
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post #15 of 501 Old 01-20-2013, 05:40 PM
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This is a very crucial point many people don't realize. Today's energy regulations have been very difficult for today's plasmas as they thrive on power. This is one of the main reasons nothing matches a Kuro which uses far more power. It's really amazing Panasonic and even Samsung have been able to produce the quality image they do with less and less power every year, so they are making significant technological advances in a certain way.

So essentially, image quality suffers or is held in check because of global warming or spotted tree cows? Terrific. I hope that's not it!

There seem to be sets that get some things right or even better than the KURO. However, as a total package I've yet to see anything that makes me want to replace my 8th gen KURO. I do want a larger size set though so a Panny VT will probably have to do. smile.gif
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post #16 of 501 Old 01-21-2013, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by saprano View Post

And as a kuro owner this seriously bothers me. The tech is 5 Years old. There should already be a display that clearly kills it in everything. But there are still none. That why I patiently wait for my true upgrade; OLED. 4K too perhaps.



You need to take things into context. Imagine if Ferrari stop producing street legal cars(they weren’t profitable) and sold all of their patents to Chevrolet. Now Chevrolet has these Ferrari patents but they can’t just copy them because A.) They weren’t profitable and b) There are new regulations from even preventing them to just reproduce what Ferrari had. So Chevrolet comes up with a car that’s almost as overall as good as the Ferrari from 5 years ago, meets new regulations and is half the price. I would say that’s an engineering feat. I know what you’re saying about strict performance and hows its been 5 years but you need to realize they can’t produce plasma’s today like the Kuro.
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post #17 of 501 Old 01-21-2013, 02:26 PM
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So essentially, image quality suffers or is held in check because of global warming or spotted tree cows? Terrific. I hope that's not it!

There seem to be sets that get some things right or even better than the KURO. However, as a total package I've yet to see anything that makes me want to replace my 8th gen KURO. I do want a larger size set though so a Panny VT will probably have to do. smile.gif

No, it's the twits in government that are mandating the much reduced wattage that your plasma can pull from the wall. TANSTAAFL. I don't care how much power my plasma pulls from the wall, I just want the best picture possible. The Kuro was manufactured at a time when power usage was a Tertiary concern compared to PQ. Consumers who can and are willing to swing >$3000 on a PD do not care if it pulls 800 watts vs. 200 watts. Heck even BMW in the US had to dump their infamous NA inline-6 for a 'civic-sounding' Turbo 4 banger due to crappy EPA regs.
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post #19 of 501 Old 01-23-2013, 04:06 AM
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Government twits, crappy EPA regulations... did you know that Ohio's Cuyahoga River used to catch fire on a regular basis? You can thank unregulated industry for that. It doesn't catch fire anymore. You can thank the EPA for that.

Once again, I am sorry to take a sledgehammer to so small and fragile a nut. -- Richard Dawkins, The Greatest Show On Earth
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post #20 of 501 Old 01-23-2013, 04:56 AM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Ken Ross claims you hold the minority opinion of Kuro converts that have switched to Sharp Elites. I have not been able to see one in person unfortunately, but I am leaning toward your way of thinking.
Ken likes to point to the ratio in the Elite thread but that's not the correct population. He forgets to include Kuro owners (or VTXX, or Samsung whatevers) who thought about getting an Elite and chose not to because they didn't think it was better or worth the very high cost. Of course the ones who switched felt the Elite was good enough and/or a good value, that's why they got it. But that number alone, without the number of people who chose not to buy one, isn't very informative.

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Government twits, crappy EPA regulations... did you know that Ohio's Cuyahoga River used to catch fire on a regular basis? You can thank unregulated industry for that. It doesn't catch fire anymore. You can thank the EPA for that.
It didn't regulate that whole recent Gulf of Mexico poisoning very well, though. Also, there is a limit to practical regulations that such an institution can implement, where they become absurd and stifling to individuals (while big industry continues to violate their edicts roughshod).
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Ken likes to point to the ratio in the Elite thread but that's not the correct population. He forgets to include Kuro owners (or VTXX, or Samsung whatevers) who thought about getting an Elite and chose not to because they didn't think it was better or worth the very high cost. Of course the ones who switched felt the Elite was good enough and/or a good value, that's why they got it. But that number alone, without the number of people who chose not to buy one, isn't very informative.

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Yes, indeed. Good point.
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post #22 of 501 Old 01-23-2013, 11:16 AM
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So the EPA sucks because it regulates too much, except when it doesn't regulate enough. Ok! In other news, it's fun to complain about things.

Once again, I am sorry to take a sledgehammer to so small and fragile a nut. -- Richard Dawkins, The Greatest Show On Earth
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Hmm. Legitimate political derail or clever attempt at getting a Kuro thread closed? wink.gif
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Eh, they were actually spineless when it came to enforcing what dispersant BP (the energy giant) could use. That's not the same for the lowly individual who is at risk of endangering a lizard or is causing endangerment to a "body of water" (i.e. a drainage ditch or a puddle in many instances). There is good cause for complaint when enforcement is less than equitable depending on one's clout/size/money (and some of the regulations themselves are suspect).
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post #25 of 501 Old 01-24-2013, 12:10 PM
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SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...........

About that kuro replacement... the ZT60/VT60 or the F8500?

FYI the political/environmental Forums are that way ►►►
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post #26 of 501 Old 01-24-2013, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by SaviorMachine View Post

Government twits, crappy EPA regulations... did you know that Ohio's Cuyahoga River used to catch fire on a regular basis? You can thank unregulated industry for that. It doesn't catch fire anymore. You can thank the EPA for that.

Most people just don't want image quality compromised due to feel good BS, that's all. A plasma TV just isn't a threat to the planet. I ain't buying that.

So, where were we? Oh yeah, what in the frack are we gonna buy then? Prolly a Panasonic or a Samsung, huh?
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post #27 of 501 Old 01-24-2013, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by saprano View Post

When people say the kuro hasn't been surpasses still, they aren't just talking about black level. They mean everything. Color, HD video processing, black level etc. just overall PQ. Other sets have come close. Some you can't even really tell a difference. But none has completely beat it in everything. I'm talking 100% obvious better in PQ.

And as a kuro owner this seriously bothers me. The tech is 5 Years old. There should already be a display that clearly kills it in everything. But there are still none. That why I patiently wait for my true upgrade; OLED. 4K too perhaps.

Sometimes, I feel like you. I adore my Pro-111FD and fear having it die on me because there really isn't an overall equivalent for it, much less anything that would represent an upgrade. The reason I got the Elite in the first place was because it was the only no-compromise TV set available at the time. Even now, as good as sets like the VT50 and the Sharp Elite are, they each have issues widespread enough that keep them from being seen as the KURO's equal.

OLED UHD sets may be the technological combination that truly represents a jaw-dropping leap and bound above the KURO.

If so, bring it on.

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post #28 of 501 Old 01-24-2013, 05:13 PM
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The bad news: Another utterly pointless Kuro thread.

The good news: The "secret stash" of Kuros that Pioneer has for replacements under warranty and such is soon going to be made available (somehow) to the general public. You can replace your Kuro with... a Kuro!

Then you can have another 1000 threads telling us how great it is.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #29 of 501 Old 01-24-2013, 06:09 PM
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The bad news: Another utterly pointless Kuro thread.

The good news: The "secret stash" of Kuros that Pioneer has for replacements under warranty and such is soon going to be made available (somehow) to the general public. You can replace your Kuro with... a Kuro!

Then you can have another 1000 threads telling us how great it is.

Snipe snipe snipe.

Look, it's not the fault of owners that you missed your opportunity to get an Elite KURO.
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post #30 of 501 Old 01-24-2013, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

The bad news: Another utterly pointless Kuro thread.

The good news: The "secret stash" of Kuros that Pioneer has for replacements under warranty and such is soon going to be made available (somehow) to the general public. You can replace your Kuro with... a Kuro!

Then you can have another 1000 threads telling us how great it is.

I don't get the kuro hate. Its over appraisal it well deserved. Maby if you had one you would understand.

More importantly though, where did you hear more kuros are going to be available?

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