ZT60 Series, Shipping May 2013, Models/Sizes/List Prices - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 1309 Old 04-09-2013, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Number one reason Tvs are returned, becasue people cose the smaller TV, always go with the biggest you can get\fit.....It may look huge at 1st, but you will soon get used to it and think how much bigger can I go wink.gif
I hear you. I'm less concerned about the size than I am with the larger pixels. I can't believe I just typed that. Of course I'll get the 65".

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post #272 of 1309 Old 04-09-2013, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by repete66211 View Post

I think it's still a bit early to use phrases like "no doubt". That said, the ZT60 seems to be the TV to beat in 2013, unless the Samsung shines in a side-by-side comparison. Now it's just a matter of deciding if the 65" is too big...

Just a feeling i have. smile.gif


By the way, there's no such thing as "too big" when it comes to TV's.

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post #273 of 1309 Old 04-09-2013, 07:16 PM
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Does anyone know if the ZT60 will have a blue or red LED light on the front of the panel that will remain on when the set is powered on? If so, is there an option to either turn it off or reverse the functionality so that the light is on when the set is off and, and off when the set is on?
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post #274 of 1309 Old 04-09-2013, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by repete66211 View Post

I hear you. I'm less concerned about the size than I am with the larger pixels. I can't believe I just typed that. Of course I'll get the 65".

Blasphemy...

Though I am an employee of Magnolia Home Theater, the views and opinions I express on this forum are those of my own and not my employer.
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post #275 of 1309 Old 04-09-2013, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Watcher12 View Post

Does anyone know if the ZT60 will have a blue or red LED light on the front of the panel that will remain on when the set is powered on? If so, is there an option to either turn it off or reverse the functionality so that the light is on when the set is off and, and off when the set is on?

Haven't heard anything about LED light, but on my VT50 theres a red LED when the TVs on. I put a small piece of black electrical tape over it, blends right in with the bezel.

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post #276 of 1309 Old 04-09-2013, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Jay Mammoth View Post

Haven't heard anything about LED light, but on my VT50 theres a red LED when the TVs on. I put a small piece of black electrical tape over it, blends right in with the bezel.

Ya, I don't want to have o resort to using tape on the bezel. Samsung got it right with their latest models where the light is on when the TV is off and off when the TV is on. Hope Panasonic got it right with this year's sets ...
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post #277 of 1309 Old 04-09-2013, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Watcher12 View Post

Ya, I don't want to have o resort to using tape on the bezel. Samsung got it right with their latest models where the light is on when the TV is off and off when the TV is on. Hope Panasonic got it right with this year's sets ...
Or it just isn't a big deal....
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post #278 of 1309 Old 04-09-2013, 11:50 PM
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Or it just isn't a big deal....

It's certainly not the biggest of deals, but its a small point that I am interested in for sure. I've always found the small blue dot glowing on my current set's bezel quite annoying when watching in the dark ...
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post #279 of 1309 Old 04-10-2013, 01:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Watcher12 View Post

Ya, I don't want to have o resort to using tape on the bezel. Samsung got it right with their latest models where the light is on when the TV is off and off when the TV is on. Hope Panasonic got it right with this year's sets ...

Try the affordable and very effective lightdims.com light dims. I have a couple over the red LED on my VT50 and UT50. I also use them on all my other AV equipment that have non-defeatable LED's. Works wonderfully and pretty much invisible.
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post #280 of 1309 Old 04-10-2013, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

About the video processing of tvs.

I never have trusted the video processing in TV's -- not even my Kuros. Ken has referred to the "mythology" created around the Kuro. Most will say it has the best processor ever. See below for a review of the display from 2009:

"The Pioneer’s upconversion of standard-definition 480i sources to the panel’s native 1080p resolution was average at best. It locked on to 3:2 pulldown (film-sourced material) on two of my three tests for this capability, but it consistently broke lock on the most challenging test. It showed visible artifacts on 2:2 (video-sourced material) tests and had severe jaggies on a mixed video-over-film scroll. While I saw occasional artifacts on some real-world 480i sources, they were frequent only when clearly present in the source itself. (The History International SD channel, a personal favorite, is particularly prone to jaggies on fast pans—on this and other sets.)"

http://www.hometheater.com/content/pioneer-elite-kuro-pro-141fd-plasma-hd-monitor

I get your point, and it's a good one. But I believe you might be over looking some things. For example no external video processor can fix the item(s) I listed below. I'll keep this a short list (incomplete) , as I'm just beating a dead horse at this point. I have a gut feeling someone is going to jump in on me, plus this thread is about 2013 TV(s) not 2012 smile.gif


Flickering in all modes but 60hz
The internal algorithms that are on occasion making the image softer than it really is is (dropping details/over dithered/grainy)
flickering in dark areas of screen due to different refresh rates there
...

So using those for example there is no way to bypass them in the internal processing/drive of the TV; they can't be defeated internally or externally. Granted having an external processor clean things up a bit does indeed make the 50 series perform better as some of these things aren't as extreme.

I look forward to a US review of the ZT60, it sounds like it will finally be "the one". Although I'm sure some Kuro person will find something wrong with it. IMO even the 8500 is "the one". It just shows sometimes there are trade-offs to meet certain criteria. Maybe now (finally) people can focus on other aspects of PQ besides "blacks". Although I have a feeling focus will move to OLED and it's perfect blacks.

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post #281 of 1309 Old 04-10-2013, 07:04 AM - Thread Starter
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^^^^

Good points. Yeah, OLED is anticiapted primarily for it's blacks. The darn thing is once one has seen how a Kuro really does blend with the bezel and is black all of the time -- I must admit -- it's hard to let go of even knowing I never saw perfect blacks in a theater.

Back on topic.
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post #282 of 1309 Old 04-10-2013, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by saprano View Post

The ZT60 is going to be an amazing set it seems. Definitely better than the F8500 no doubt. Maby i should buy one since this looks to be Panasonics last.

Oh, I'm not so sure about its superiority to the 8500. It's a great panel for sure, but 'definitely better'? I saw nothing at the show that would tell me that. Here were my impressions for what they're worth and I have absolutely no bias or axe to grind whatsoever. I'm not a Panny fan and I'm not a Samsung fan. I just want the best overall panel. So here's what I said over on the 8500 forum. Just my personal observations which seemed to differ from digitaltrends:

I thought it might be interesting to give my observations of the ZT60 that I saw tonight at the Engadget show (thanks Robert & Wendy for the invite, MUCH appreciated!). I apologize if some feel this is inappropriate in this thread, but I know there must be others besides me that are looking at both the 8500 & ZT60 for their next display. So here's what I saw and I disagree on a few points with digitaltrends:

From what they showed, unlike digitaltrends, there's no way I could say definitively 'best TV ever'. Not in that setting. It may be true, but then again it may not be.The only comparison was to a Pioneer Kuro that sat alongside the ZT. Would have been nice to have an F8500, the real competition today to the ZT60.

Black Levels-Although the speaker said the black levels matched the Kuro, it was very clear to me the black levels were still a bit better on the Kuro. No question. Robert agreed. But the Kuro's blacks had the common Kuro 'red tinged blacks' whereas the ZT was neutral. My Kuro also had a bit of a red tinge with its blacks. Don't get me wrong, there wasn't a big difference, but I thought it was pretty funny that he said the blacks measured the same and yet it was clear the Kuro blacks were better and showed, I thought, quite clearly on fades to black as well as a couple of other scenes. I spoke to a couple of other people and everyone agreed. I even thought my Elite had better black levels than anything I saw here. Again, the ZT60's black levels were excellent, they just didn't appear quite as dark as the Kuro's.

Shadow Detail-Where the ZT60 was clearly better was in shadow detail. The ZT extracted detail in shadows that were essentially invisible on the Kuro. Very nice.

Color-So here's another point and it's all too common in these manufacturer A/Bs (and why Robert's shootouts are SOOO much better!). I thought my Pro 151 looked better than the Kuro they had in this comparison. The colors on the ZT60 looked very saturated by comparison to the Kuro. But why did it seem the Kuro's colors were somewhat DEsaturated. Never saw that on mine. Hmm. Saturation and colors on the pale side were never a characteristic of my ISF'd Pro 151. I don't think this aspect of the A/B was accurate, at least not IMO. I think the press, depending on what they want to see, can be fooled more easily than some of us.

What was impressive were the reds compared to the Kuro and the prior gen Panasonics. They were probably the best reds I've seen. But even there, without seeing other displays next to it like the 8500, there's no way I could say definitively 'best reds ever in video'. They were 'redder' than the Kuro, but again, I'll bet the bank the Kuro was not properly adjusted. But my gut reaction were these were really excellent reds. Best ever? Maybe, but I wouldn't swear to it. The ZT60 can utilize the DCI color space. This broadens the color palette, but doesn't conform to Rec709. But it does look good. Colors are deeper and richer. They're just not accurate per Rec709. But if you had DCI type content, it could be utilized.

Motion Handling-The motion handling was excellent and obviously better than the Kuro. Their demo for this consisted of 'stitched' still pictures, rapidly panning across the screen. But, I could see they were playing 60p material, not 24p, at 38mps (a very high bitrate you don't see on broadcast). The material at 60p was not particularly demanding for motion and I asked if they had any 24p content like a Blu Ray, so we could see a more demanding test of motion handling. He said he had only the material on the hard drive. So the test tells us nothing about how it will handle 24p motion. I can see it handles 60p better than a 4 year old Kuro, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything relative to 24p, let alone more modern displays @60p.

Brightness- I asked how it compared in brightness to the previous generation of Panasonics since that's been a key advertising point. He didn't know the answer. I thought that was a bit odd. Demoing the premiere display in your line, that advertises greater brightness than any previous Panny model, yet we have no idea how much brighter? There was certainly nothing in the A/B that indicated anything about its brightness capabilities. The lights were turned on after the dark room demo to show that it can handle bright room light. The only problem was, there were only a couple of lights that resulted in an ambient lighting that was considerably dimmer than a typical Magnoloa.

I don't mean to sound cynical, but I approach A/Bs of this type, a bit skeptical. I certainly thought this was a beautiful display that was a real head turner. But is it better than an F8500? If so, how much better and in what areas? Is it even as good as an F8500? I can honestly say that none of these questions were answered for me. Maybe for digitaltrends, but not for me. I'll wait for Robert's shootout for a more accurate A/B. Or in the case of the shootout, an A/B/C/D/E/F/G........... smile.gif

At any rate it's still certainly in contention for me along with the 8500. Nothing changed as the result of tonight...for me. wink.gif

Edit: In thinking about this and assume for a minute you're Panasonic, very confident about your product, wouldn't it have been a knockout A/B to have the 8500 sitting alongside the ZT? Sure as hell, that's what I'd do if I was that confident. Just sayin. wink.gif
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post #283 of 1309 Old 04-10-2013, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Watcher12 View Post

Does anyone know if the ZT60 will have a blue or red LED light on the front of the panel that will remain on when the set is powered on? If so, is there an option to either turn it off or reverse the functionality so that the light is on when the set is off and, and off when the set is on?

Red when it's on. Not sure if there's an option to turn it off or not.
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post #284 of 1309 Old 04-10-2013, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

it's hard to let go of even knowing I never saw perfect blacks in a theater.
Feel lucky that your local cinema doesn't have a bright illuminated exit sign next to the screen that blows out the majority of shadow detail. Definitely puts me off going!

(But yeah, back on topic!)
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post #285 of 1309 Old 04-10-2013, 09:03 AM
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Thank you for that review, Ken. Honestly, i say the ZT60 will be better because the F8500 looks to be an ok set. Nothing revolutionary. And maby Panasonic finally put those Kuro engineers to good use. And well, it's Panasonic. They make good sets and they were brave enough this year to compare it to a kuro. Even if it was broken.......which brings me to.....

Thanks for also confirming that the Kuro they had was not set properly. I don't know if you were around but i questioned the demo they did earlier in the year because the 600A they had looked too washed out and dull. I immediately knew something was wrong. Thats no Kuro. Everyone called me crazy and a kuro fanboy. Good to see i was right.
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post #286 of 1309 Old 04-10-2013, 09:29 AM
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Makes me wonder if that unit was a prototype, lets face it with the TV crunch taking place, if there where production units out, other would be for sale now, not approximately six weeks weeks from now..........
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post #287 of 1309 Old 04-10-2013, 09:30 AM
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Makes me wonder if that unit was a prototype, lets face it with the TV crunch taking place, if there where production units out, other would be for sale now, not approximately six weeks weeks from now..........

Yup.

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post #288 of 1309 Old 04-10-2013, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

Makes me wonder if that unit was a prototype, lets face it with the TV crunch taking place, if there where production units out, other would be for sale now, not approximately six weeks weeks from now..........

I think the insider over on HDJ said that these are still prototypes, but I am not 100% sure on that to be honest.....I would tend to think the same way you do however.....
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post #289 of 1309 Old 04-10-2013, 09:55 AM
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Nice read on HDJ forum , AVJ the Panasonic insider compared the ZT60 to his Pioneer 111 , a very honest review .
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post #290 of 1309 Old 04-10-2013, 09:55 AM
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I'm inclined to say that if it's launching in 6-7 weeks there almost certainly have to be production units coming off the line at this point. You don't start production runs on the day you launch a product, you start early to make sure everything's running properly and that you actually have some stock ready to go on launch day. As a rule of marketing a company is always going to suggest in pre-release exposure that the finished product might be even better. That doesn't mean the one they brought was a production model, but surely they have to be building them this close to the launch.
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Nice read on HDJ forum , AVJ the Panasonic insider compared the ZT60 to his Pioneer 111 , a very honest review .

Just popped over there to read it and I noticed they're all discussing the same thing I'm wondering about, which is whether the ZT60 will essentially be the last big effort from Panasonic in plasma technology, with no ZT70 to follow. Of course I know that from a marketing perspective you always want to make customers think "this is my last chance, I need to buy it now," but considering the state of Panasonic and plasma in general it wouldn't be entirely shocking if it were true. On the other hand there were some older rumors that 2014 would be the big update for Panasonic's plasma tech, so it's hard to know what will happen.
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post #291 of 1309 Old 04-10-2013, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Watcher12 View Post

It's certainly not the biggest of deals, but its a small point that I am interested in for sure. I've always found the small blue dot glowing on my current set's bezel quite annoying when watching in the dark ...

Here's some more info on the Light Dims - i use them on lots of stuff - even on my car's instrument panel smile.gif

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1403635/official-panasonic-gt50-series-discussion-thread-no-street-price-talk/4530#post_22664779

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post #292 of 1309 Old 04-10-2013, 10:48 AM
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Try the affordable and very effective lightdims.com light dims.

Thanks for posting this. I've been looking for something like this for years to use on my alarm clock in the bedroom. This is exactly what I was wanting but couldn't find. They'll be perfect for the few extra bright lights in my A/V rack too.
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post #293 of 1309 Old 04-10-2013, 11:45 AM
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post #294 of 1309 Old 04-10-2013, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by saprano View Post

Thank you for that review, Ken. Honestly, i say the ZT60 will be better because the F8500 looks to be an ok set. Nothing revolutionary. And maby Panasonic finally put those Kuro engineers to good use. And well, it's Panasonic. They make good sets and they were brave enough this year to compare it to a kuro. Even if it was broken.......which brings me to.....

Thanks for also confirming that the Kuro they had was not set properly. I don't know if you were around but i questioned the demo they did earlier in the year because the 600A they had looked too washed out and dull. I immediately knew something was wrong. Thats no Kuro. Everyone called me crazy and a kuro fanboy. Good to see i was right.

Agreed on the calibration, but we greatly differ on your assessment of the F8500. I get the impression (perhaps wrongly) that you're not a fan of Samsung and prefer Panasonic. If true, that's great, whatever works for you. I tend to be totally agnostic when it comes to who made the display. I've had Fujitsus, several gens of Kuros and the Sharp Elite. Give me the best overall picture and I could care less whose name is on it. BTW, you do realize that some at CES thought the F8500 was the best looking 2K set there. Some also felt that way about the ZT60. So there's room to differ for sure.

But where we really disagree is your comment that the 'F8500 looks to be an OK set...nothing revolutionary'. The brightness levels achieved on the F8500 are truly revolutionary. No plasma had ever come close to the luminance levels it can achieve. It also has very deep measured MLLs of .0016-.0017, probably very close to what the ZT60 will be, if just a bit higher. To be perfectly honest, the ZT60 is certainly an improvement over the VT50, but IMO, it's certainly not revolutionary in any one area.

As I see it, the ZT60 improves in a variety of areas and the sum of those parts may be enough to sway people. But really, if you're looking for quantum leaps in a given picture category, it's the F8500 that did it with brightness. I know many here are only concerned with MLLs. I look for those too, but I look for other areas of PQ and never judge a display on just one aspect of PQ. It would appear this year, displays from Samsung and Panasonic are going to be in essentially the same MLL ballpark. If .0004 is going to sway someone, then hey, go for it.

But really, based on what I saw last night, the ZT60 didn't scream out to me as being better than the F8500. They're both superb displays. I'll wait for the shootout at Robert's to see how they are when stacked together. But as I said, if I was Panasonic and so sure that my panel bested the competition, you'd bet I'd have a Samsung F8500 sitting right next to it. It didn't happen.

So I'm really still up in the air on which to get...way up in the air. smile.gif
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post #295 of 1309 Old 04-10-2013, 12:35 PM
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I think the insider over on HDJ said that these are still prototypes, but I am not 100% sure on that to be honest.....I would tend to think the same way you do however.....

They were. I'm not even sure that final production has begun.
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post #296 of 1309 Old 04-10-2013, 01:08 PM
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I completely agree with Saprano is just OK...A little better than VT50...but not a ZT60 and EU reviews prove that.
And for: "if I was Panasonic and so sure that my panel bested the competition, you'd bet I'd have a Samsung F8500 sitting right next to it".

That will be free marketing for the competition...What corporation will do that?
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post #297 of 1309 Old 04-10-2013, 01:21 PM
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What corporation would do that? Huh? By proving your panel is better? I guess the corporation that want's to prove theirs is better and sell more as a result...IF they can prove it. It's done all the time by corporations with different products. Welcome to Marketing 101. Do you ever watch car commercials?

Of course it's impossible that this wasn't done because they weren't confident enough, right? No, we can rule that out. Yup. Just as the Kuro that served as the competition seemed mis-adjusted?

I'm open to all possibilities. smile.gif
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post #298 of 1309 Old 04-10-2013, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

What corporation would do that? Huh? By proving your panel is better? I guess the corporation that want's to prove theirs is better and sell more as a result...IF they can prove it. It's done all the time by corporations with different products. Welcome to Marketing 101. Do you ever watch car commercials?

Of course it's impossible that this wasn't done because they weren't confident enough, right? No, we can rule that out. Yup. Just as the Kuro that served as the competition seemed mis-adjusted?

I'm open to all possibilities. smile.gif

You sir are about to be going in a circle wink.gif ......
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post #299 of 1309 Old 04-10-2013, 01:27 PM
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I put that in the other side...Why samsung is not so confident than compare his F8500 with a KURO or a ZT60...
They talk and talk and talk that it's better than KURO...and never did a comparisson...

PS: Panasonic Thread...sammy talk...always happen that with you
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post #300 of 1309 Old 04-10-2013, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by agkss View Post

I put that in the other side...Why samsung it's not so confident than compare his F8500 with a KURO or a ZT60...

round and round we go.......

for one Samsung isnt saying that thier set is Kuro anything, while Panasonic is\has........

Of course if a ZT60 was actually available to purchase then maybe youd see comparisons...Unfortunately the F8500 was released before both the VT60 and ZT60 made it to market so it would be near impossible for them to do so.....
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