ZT60 Series, Shipping May 2013, Models/Sizes/List Prices - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 1309 Old 04-02-2013, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by TV4Sooner View Post

So you've purchased from VE before?

Bought a P50ST60 from Best Buy for $999 + tax.

I'm considering jumping to the 55", but really want to get the price as low as possible.

This seems like a pretty good deal, no?

55" TC-P55ST60 $1500
VE Instant Rebate $200 *$1300
*Free Mack 3yr extended warranty

But I'm not familiar with Mack warranties. I presume this is a no tax (for now hehe) purchase?

If I can get an extended warranty of some kind and a final cost of $1300, I think I could swing that.

Unless you buy it in store, I think they charge 100 shipping also, right?

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post #182 of 1309 Old 04-02-2013, 02:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Omni009 View Post

Unless you buy it in store, I think they charge 100 shipping also, right?

Good grief, I think you're right. "In-home delivery service is not an option"

It's always something........mad.gif
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post #183 of 1309 Old 04-02-2013, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

True. But the thing with raising black levels while greatly increasing brightness brings up the point that the raised black levels don't make a difference at that point. The assumption is you're raising the brightness because you're in a bright room. So in a bright room, you don't need the black levels (.0016-0017) that the 8500 is capable of...you'd never see them anyway. smile.gif

I agree that in a room with significant ambient light it wouldn't be perceptible on a dark screen, but would it not still pay dividends in contrast/picture pop in normal scenes? Or is it such that the ambient light truly diminishes the human eye's ability to perceive contrast? I feel like I would still observe a better picture if it maintained the black levels.
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post #184 of 1309 Old 04-02-2013, 08:32 AM
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Back to shipping dates....any firm info on the ZT60?

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post #185 of 1309 Old 04-02-2013, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Chuckinbeast View Post

I agree that in a room with significant ambient light it wouldn't be perceptible on a dark screen, but would it not still pay dividends in contrast/picture pop in normal scenes? Or is it such that the ambient light truly diminishes the human eye's ability to perceive contrast? I feel like I would still observe a better picture if it maintained the black levels.

It's the latter. The more ambient light you have in a room the less you can see anything even approaching black. Try going from a bright room to a dark room and seeing how much detail you can see before your eyes adjust.
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post #186 of 1309 Old 04-02-2013, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by jh901 View Post

Back to shipping dates....any firm info on the ZT60?

May-June unless it changes.....The shipping date also might differ from retailer to retailer.......
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post #187 of 1309 Old 04-02-2013, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

It's the latter. The more ambient light you have in a room the less you can see anything even approaching black. Try going from a bright room to a dark room and seeing how much detail you can see before your eyes adjust.

I obviously agree with that readily observable example, but that is more about the transient affect of going from light to dark on your eyes. If my eyes are adjusted to room conditions, is there some ceiling level of contrast the eye can perceive based on ambient light conditions? If so, then yes there would reach a point where minimum black levels wouldn't matter. If not, then MLL will matter even in a bright room. I've been trying to find a scientific paper on this subject to see if I could wade through it to understand --- but its pretty thick stuff.

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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

May-June unless it changes.....The shipping date also might differ from retailer to retailer.......

ABT electronics in Chicago was expecting early May stock for the ZT60s.
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post #188 of 1309 Old 04-02-2013, 10:55 AM
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Regarding this discussion on perceived blacks, etc. Even in a dark room because the whites are brighter on the F8500 because of better ABL response, that alone will give a better perception of contrast and blacks. When you have dimmer whites like on other plasmas, you need better blacks to make up the perceived difference.

I know this from experience with my old SXRD and auto iris. Even watching in a dark room, the perceived blacks were better with it engaged because there was so much more light coming into the image particularly whites. It basically tricks the eye. The mll was the same with it engaged or not though.
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post #189 of 1309 Old 04-02-2013, 11:58 AM
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BestBuy has it on their website as coming soon, it will be available before June maybe even in a couple of weeks...
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post #190 of 1309 Old 04-02-2013, 02:12 PM
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post #191 of 1309 Old 04-02-2013, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckinbeast View Post

I obviously agree with that readily observable example, but that is more about the transient affect of going from light to dark on your eyes. If my eyes are adjusted to room conditions, is there some ceiling level of contrast the eye can perceive based on ambient light conditions? If so, then yes there would reach a point where minimum black levels wouldn't matter. If not, then MLL will matter even in a bright room. I've been trying to find a scientific paper on this subject to see if I could wade through it to understand --- but its pretty thick stuff.

Chuckin, I guarantee you can not see the difference between .0016 and .002 or anything even within that ballpark in a well lit room. I don't know what the CRs that the eye can detect in a well lit room, but I can tell you there's simply no way you could differentiate between the lower MLLs on the better panels in that kind of lighting. You just can't. You will read frequently that calibrators say, when speaking of the threshold of detection between say .002 and .001, a dark room is necessary and a very dark input is also required. With that said, it's very easy to extrapolate that there's no way those very low MLLs do you any good in a well lit room.
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post #192 of 1309 Old 04-02-2013, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by jh901 View Post

Back to shipping dates....any firm info on the ZT60?
I've heard the first batch is going out the end of May but nothing will be available to the casual consumer until late June.

On one hand I want one ASAP but on the other I'd rather see reviews first and wait for the first-run glitches to be worked out.

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post #193 of 1309 Old 04-03-2013, 12:21 PM
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Best Buy has the pricing listed for the ZT60. No news on a shipping date, but here are the prices online:

65ZT60: $4,099.99
60ZT60: $3,499.99
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post #194 of 1309 Old 04-03-2013, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Chuckin, I guarantee you can not see the difference between .0016 and .002 or anything even within that ballpark in a well lit room. I don't know what the CRs that the eye can detect in a well lit room, but I can tell you there's simply no way you could differentiate between the lower MLLs on the better panels in that kind of lighting. You just can't. You will read frequently that calibrators say, when speaking of the threshold of detection between say .002 and .001, a dark room is necessary and a very dark input is also required. With that said, it's very easy to extrapolate that there's no way those very low MLLs do you any good in a well lit room.

But Chuck is talking about perceived contrast, not whether you can detect tiny difference in MLL below some threshold. You like it bright, so do I; all things being equal, a brighter display will look better. However, you have convinced yourself black levels better than your current favorite f8500 will make little or no difference; I am not.

There is a reason the Kuro is held up as the reference for so long (other than Kuro die-hardism), and it's not because it is bright. It's the insane ANSI contrast achieved by great blacks. Intrascene contrast is the key. You can only increase brightness so much, but you can keep dropping black until it hits zero.

It's why zero black level is the holy grail and (partly) why 55" OLED is going to cost you 12k when it finally arrives.
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post #195 of 1309 Old 04-04-2013, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by barth2k View Post

But Chuck is talking about perceived contrast, not whether you can detect tiny difference in MLL below some threshold. You like it bright, so do I; all things being equal, a brighter display will look better. However, you have convinced yourself black levels better than your current favorite f8500 will make little or no difference; I am not.

There is a reason the Kuro is held up as the reference for so long (other than Kuro die-hardism), and it's not because it is bright. It's the insane ANSI contrast achieved by great blacks. Intrascene contrast is the key. You can only increase brightness so much, but you can keep dropping black until it hits zero.

It's why zero black level is the holy grail and (partly) why 55" OLED is going to cost you 12k when it finally arrives.

However, I would appreciate a PQ parameter that I can see far more often in a variety of viewing conditions than one that I might be able to appreciate in only the darkest environment with the darkest of scenes. Once any degree of light enters a dark scene, you'll never be able to see a difference of .0005 MLL (IMO). You just won't. So when a 0 ire or near 0 ire picture becomes common viewing material for me, then I'll get excited about an MLL that's .0005 better. wink.gif

More importantly, if I was seeking the holy grail of MLLs, I wouldn't be looking for plasma, I'd run as fast as I could and grab an XBR950. No plasma will match its MLL, none.

OLED is going to cost 12k when it finally arrives not because it has zero blacks, but because the rejection rate is so extraordinarily high, resulting in a high cost per piece.

From what I heard from some at CES, the best conventional displays were already pretty close to OLED. OLED better come out pretty fast and for prices far less than 12k if many are going to be interested at all. It's going to become more of a yawn as time goes by.
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post #196 of 1309 Old 04-04-2013, 08:02 PM
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BestBuy has it on their website as coming soon, it will be available before June maybe even in a couple of weeks...

Expect these to be available in early June, no sooner.

Though I am an employee of Magnolia Home Theater, the views and opinions I express on this forum are those of my own and not my employer.
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post #197 of 1309 Old 04-04-2013, 10:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

More importantly, if I was seeking the holy grail of MLLs, I wouldn't be looking for plasma, I'd run as fast as I could and grab an XBR950. No plasma will match its MLL, none.
Higher priced with poorer viewer angles, the prospect of banding, and blooming artifacts, I just can't abide this recommendation. *Maybe* if it could be easily returned, but that proposition is just too risky otherwise. A ZT60, while not having MLLs quite as impressive, should not suffer from any of the above (and will be available at a considerably lower cost).
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post #198 of 1309 Old 04-04-2013, 10:57 PM
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Higher priced with poorer viewer angles, the prospect of banding, and blooming artifacts, I just can't abide this recommendation.

I think he was making a point, not a recommendation.

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post #199 of 1309 Old 04-04-2013, 11:10 PM
 
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recommendation, point, what have you, the holy grail of MLL shouldn't be considered in a vacuum, that's all, especially when there are detrimental PQ artifacts (that in part come from the local dimming feature itself) that create negative side effects.
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post #200 of 1309 Old 04-05-2013, 01:50 AM
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recommendation, point, what have you, the holy grail of MLL shouldn't be considered in a vacuum, that's all, especially when there are detrimental PQ artifacts (that in part come from the local dimming feature itself) that create negative side effects.
Plasma can suck to. Lets no get all hype over 1 tech.
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post #201 of 1309 Old 04-05-2013, 03:05 AM
 
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Anything not designed well can suck. Plasma has traditionally done it better (deliver superior PQ) at a lower cost. And if you did manage to pay a premium back in 2008, you'd have procured a product (a cut above the rest at the time) that held its own ground in performance going on five years.
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post #202 of 1309 Old 04-05-2013, 01:58 PM
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The only thing holding back LED is price. Even then. That only applies to cheap vs cheap. A cheap plasma will always kill a cheap lcd. ( not including PC monitors )

Talk more high end and that gap is getting closer and closer. The only "Superior" thing plasma has going for it is price for performance. Picture. Is not one of those aspects.
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The gap is narrowed, sure, but LCD will always have its inherent limitations, just like any display tech.
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post #204 of 1309 Old 04-05-2013, 02:10 PM
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You said what I said lol. Just different wording.
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Fine, truce. tongue.gif
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post #207 of 1309 Old 04-05-2013, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Higher priced with poorer viewer angles, the prospect of banding, and blooming artifacts, I just can't abide this recommendation. *Maybe* if it could be easily returned, but that proposition is just too risky otherwise. A ZT60, while not having MLLs quite as impressive, should not suffer from any of the above (and will be available at a considerably lower cost).

Owner's reports don't point to either being particularly bothersome (blooming & banding). Obviously, as with any panel, one can get a bad one. Viewing angle is dependent upon the needs of the viewer. If it's two people watching, the viewing angle will be fine. More than two, not so fine. But reading the 950 threads, I see a very high % of very happy owners.

As we know, all these panels are flawed in one way or the other. Even though I'm leaning more toward plasma on this go-around, I find motion much more natural on an LED/LCD as opposed to the judder on plasma. My eyes see rapid motion much more aligned with how an LED/LCD depicts it as opposed to the staccato effect of judder.

We all see things differently. smile.gif
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post #208 of 1309 Old 04-05-2013, 10:37 PM
 
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I can see the appeal of having smoother/blurred motion versus more stuttered movement. Of course, an associated PQ parameter would be motion rez (from what I understand, that is another performance gap that has been closed in recent years). The ZT is purportedly a boss in this dept. Also, yes, 2 people typically (sometimes 3), but with the freedom to sit around the room (separately, if desired) again leads me away from either of these sets. I'd want a Sharp in any case, and those are drying up. ;(
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post #209 of 1309 Old 04-06-2013, 07:43 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Speakerphile View Post

Expect these to be available in early June, no sooner.

I noticed a few of your posts on HDJ were removed when you said early June for the ZT60. I assume they don't like anyone challenging avjunkie, but you seem to know the facts on this.

Does Magnolia have an exclusive on ZT60 distribution and if so for how long?
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post #210 of 1309 Old 04-06-2013, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by schnura View Post

I noticed a few of your posts on HDJ were removed when you said early June for the ZT60. I assume they don't like anyone challenging avjunkie, but you seem to know the facts on this.

Does Magnolia have an exclusive on ZT60 distribution and if so for how long?

Almost anything can get your post deleted at HDJ. I merely posted a quote from Robert Zohn on his feedback from the F8500 and it got deleted. LOL!

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