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post #1 of 22 Old 02-06-2013, 01:46 PM - Thread Starter
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So I'm about to buy a tv and want a 60-65 inch one. All of this reading in here has made me paranoid to buy a plasma. I watch ESPN a lot and my son watches loads of kid shows, and we all in the house do play Xbox regulary. This plasma seems like a lot of maintenance. I want to buy a tv and take it out of the box and just use it and not have to worry about all of this maintenance and static/burnin, etc. Is this really blown out of proportion or what? I just don't want to regret buying a 1000 dollar plus tv and having issues. So any advice is appreciated.
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post #2 of 22 Old 02-06-2013, 06:58 PM
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I'd go LCD/led for those uses. Image retention will be an annoyance with the tickers, channel logos and game HUDs. Can't be worry free with those usages and a plasma.

Plasma PQ is awesome. But it's best suited for people who watch a lot of different things and avoid repeated long sessions with the same static images. If it's going to be on espn for hours or have the same games played for hours several nights a week IR will pop up. It's mostly temporary these days. But can be stubborn and take hours of watching other stuff to go away

So if you aren't a videophile who watches a ton of movies on bluray I'd go with LED. I watch a ton of ESPN and game a lot myself and just returned a Panny UT50 plasma for a Panny ET5 LED set due to IR and buzzing on bright scenes on the plasma and I'm thrilled with the LED personally.
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post #3 of 22 Old 02-07-2013, 05:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, that all seems helpful. A friend of mine has a 42 in panasonic plasma and he has the same watching habits as I (for the most part) he may even be more routine in what he watches than I and he hasn't had much of an issue with IR. He also has a 60in Sharp Aquos LED that does not look as good with sports, games etc. So I think I may go Plasma and turn on timers/screen savers...The better movie quality and sports picture and price are all appealing. Sams Club has a panasonic 60in plasma right now on sale for 798 where I'm at...not sure of the model at this time but I think I may go with it seeing as an LED of the same size at 240hz is double that price..I'll see how it goes. I mainly watch espn first take for 2 hours, network shows, recordings and play 3-4 Xbox games in rotation, do you think watching ESPN for 2 hours at a time and changing it will be an issue? that seems crazy to me if it would be?
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post #4 of 22 Old 02-07-2013, 05:55 AM
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Two hour blocks should be fine. Any IR from that amount of time should go away pretty quickly. It's longer, several hour sessions of the same static images that can leave more stubborn IR.

Just be extra cautious the first 100 hours or so as plasmas tend to get stubborn IR more quickly early on before the phosphors have aged. Maybe run the slides overnight/while at work to help blow past that time period faster so you can get to using it normally and make sure you like it before the return period is over. See the master break in/IR thread here for details.
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post #5 of 22 Old 02-07-2013, 06:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, I've been reading thoroughly on the breakin threads for these. My TV will be on a lot but not on the same thing for very long ever really, as I have 2 kids and a GF who constantly interupt my watching haha and switch to theirs so the tv should be on A LOT on different things to start out with. So I'm thinking I may just use it that way as a break in, just make sure its no letterbox and all full screen images. From what I remember of reading through the breakin threads, this can be done instead of running some of the breakin dvds/programs. I'll do what you said though at night and at work running the slides to assist with the aging.
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post #6 of 22 Old 02-07-2013, 10:20 AM
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I find it humorous what you read "about plasma" makes you paranoid and the things you read "about lcd/led" do not drive you completely insane.
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post #7 of 22 Old 02-07-2013, 10:28 AM - Thread Starter
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haha, I guess my only paranoia/hesitation is the IR issue.
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post #8 of 22 Old 02-07-2013, 11:20 AM
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I have had 2 Panasonic plasma's and the IR issue is minimal. If I play the same game for week straight, only on a solid white screen would you barely be able to see a bit of IR from a HUD in the game. After watching a single 2 hour movie this is gone.

From normal use its a non-issue. For business use where a static image is show all year long it would be bad.

But its worth the superior image IMO.
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post #9 of 22 Old 02-07-2013, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Which Panasonic models did you have?
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post #10 of 22 Old 02-07-2013, 11:32 AM
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Panasonic TH-50PHxxxx (1080i) to a Panasonic TC-P50st50 1080P model. Hosted off my PC, which doubles as my entertainment center. I game 85%, Movies and TV the other 15%. I was worried about IR at first too, but it was unfounded.

The longer its burned in the harder it is to wipe it. If you're the type of person to leave your TV on overnight with a static image then you would see this on solid colored screens but a movie or two would still wipe it away. Again, should be non-issue for a normal user.

Oh, and I believe the new models (maybe even the old) have tech that helps minimize this too. Basically the image slowly rotates in small imperceptible circles so any static image isn't always concentrated on the same set of pixels.
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post #11 of 22 Old 02-07-2013, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks! I'll look into those. I'm currently trying to decide between these 3 unless something by you or anyone strikes my eye:

65” VIZIO Razor LED 1080p 240Hz Smart HDTV w/ Theater 3D $1588
60" TC-60PU54 Panasonic Plasma 1080p HDTV $798.00
60" 60PA6550 LG 1080p 600Hz Plasma HDTV 850.00
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post #12 of 22 Old 02-07-2013, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thexchris View Post

I mainly watch espn first take for 2 hours, network shows, recordings and play 3-4 Xbox games in rotation, do you think watching ESPN for 2 hours at a time and changing it will be an issue? that seems crazy to me if it would be?

I had IR problems with a Panny Plasma because I, like you, would watch 1-2 hours a time. In my case MSNBC. But it was 1-2 hours in the morning and ditto in the evening, and maybe some other content. I had IR with their white header with black text. It wasn't really going away after a few days, but then again I wasn't really changing my viewing habits, so like going outside with a sunburn I was probably making it worse.

My point is its a little more complicated then just "anything less than x hours is fine". There's a cumulative and repetitive effect too. So, with Plasma, you will need to learn what the tolerance to IR are and the methods people on this forum use to minimize or remove it.

If you belong to Costco or similar they have a 90 day return period. That would provide you more options than just 30 days at Best Buy.

Good luck!
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post #13 of 22 Old 02-07-2013, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah I like the 90 day return period Sams offers. Whats the cool down period, I guess you could call it that, for Plasma's on how long you have to "change" what's on the screen. Like if I watch Espn every day or baseball games, should I turn it off/watch something else for days or hours..or if i watch espn regularly, will I have to go without for a while?
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post #14 of 22 Old 02-07-2013, 12:01 PM
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The short answer is, it depends. Different people have reported different (good and bad) results, within the same models and manufacturers. Some people report IR going away after watching something else for a few minutes or a half hour. Others report they have to watch something else for many hours to remove IR.

To really get to the bottom of it and arrive at "best practices" you would have to have all the people with ir problems report the model, year, channels watch per day, etc.... Then maybe you could see some trends. Seems to vary year to year too, with people reporting that older Panasonic plasmas didn't have this problem.

You would have to go easy on it for a few weeks, then stress test it a little more.
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post #15 of 22 Old 02-07-2013, 12:59 PM
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The constant watching of a single program brings up a good point.; (ESPN) I eventually finish a game that was starting to burn in a HUD image and go on to the next thing so the problem is eventually moot. Your ESPN thing will probably never go away. There are other work arounds... like I might change the ratio of the UI or its transparancy or turn it off completely. The worst burn in I ever had was when I played WOW for pretty much 4 years straight. After I stopped it took several weeks of other use for the IR to go away. This was after I would move around and change my UI. But I think this is worst case scenario and it was still barely perceptible at its peak and like I said, it went away after a few weeks of no more WoW. So now on the new TV, I just don't even worry about it.

But for the ESPN thing, if it was me, I would use the TV's zoom to remove that bar.
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post #16 of 22 Old 02-07-2013, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by adone36 View Post

I find it humorous what you read "about plasma" makes you paranoid and the things you read "about lcd/led" do not drive you completely insane.

The thing is, frankly, the things you read about LCD/LED are really only things that A/V enthusiasts/videophiles notice and care about. I'm not an A/V guy. Never have been, never will be. Will never buy high end gear, will never pay for professional calibrations and so on. So I don't notice or care much about things like motion blur, viewing angles (I sit directly in front of the TV and seldom have more than a couple people over as my place is small), I don't do any competitive gaming so I don't care about input lag etc.

Plasmas on the other hand have some tendency to have issues with IR and buzzing which are things any regular Joe Six Pack can notice and be annoyed by. In fact, with IR they're probably more likely to have issues as they don't know about it and are more likely to leave the TV on ESPN or a Kids network all day every day etc. (vs. the A/V enthusiasts who mainly watch Blurays) and then be shocked to see the logos when they watch something else. If you get a buzzer, it's hard not to notice it in bright quiet scenes and so on.

So some of the potential draw backs of plasmas are things that can lead to problems for the average joe, where as the drawbacks of LED/LCD are really things that really only apply to videophiles, serious gamers etc.

To me plasmas are really just for the a/v enthusiasts who want to get as close as possible to reference picture. For the other 99% of the public who doesn't care that much about the nuances of PQ and LED/LCD is probably a better fit since they wouldn't really care about the PQ stuff on the plasma, but could be annoyed by IR, buzz, not performing as well in a bright room (average person is less likely to have a dedicated room with proper light control etc.). And this is bearing out in the market to with Pioneer getting out of the business, Panny cutting back by closing factories and getting rid of the lower level models in 2013. They're realizing there is a market for plasma. But it's the niche of a/v enthusiasts who go for higher end gear so there's not much need to put out lower end models any more as people looking to spend a grand or less on a TV probably don't care about top notch PQ and are more drawn to the slimmer LED and LCDs with the brighter screens on the show floor.

Now one could say such discussion isn't relevant here since this is a site for a/v enthusiasts. But by all the basic questions that get posted it's clear plenty of people are coming hear researching TVs who aren't informed videophiles. So when offering advice people need to be a bit more open about the drawbacks of each technology and how plasma isn't right for everyone depending on their usages and preferences, and less just blind promotion of plasmas by fans who are biased and probably worried about plasma dying off as sells dwindle and more companies cut back on models or get out of the plasma business all together.

Before recommending plasmas people need to be finding out if the person asking is:

1. A videophile type or not.
2. What their uses are. Namely whether they'll have hours and hours of repeated static images.
3. Are they willing to change their usages to limit IR?

Regardless of the answer to number 1, plasma just isn't worth the headache if a person leaves the TV on ESPN or CNN or a kid's network for 8+ hours every day, or plays the same video game for several hours every night. Number 3 is up to the individual. For me, my usages will dictate the TV I buy, not the other way around. I want to have ESPN on in the background all day when working at home, or to watch college sports all day on the weekend etc. with no worries. I've tried plasma twice and had stubborn IR problems (and loud buzzing in bright scenes) both times. My usages are atypical though as I only watch a couple channels and pretty much always have the TV on when at home. I do watch some movies, play some games etc. But not enough that my IR gets cleared up and isn't visible in bright scenes (hockey ice, basketball court etc.). I'm also not willing to butcher material with zoom etc. Plus I want to see the tickers as watching scores, news updates etc. is half the point of having ESPN or CNN on in the background. So despite the better PQ, plasma just isn't ideal for someone like me.


People make too light of how big a problem stubborn IR still is if you have those kind of usages--mainly because those aren't normal usages and most people mix up content enough to make any IR temporary rather than stubborn. But people need to be cautious in recommending plasma to people who's usages aren't ideal for it. Otherwise you just end up with people like me buying them and returning them with complaints of IR and buzzing etc. and thus sending a message to the manufacture that some consumers just aren't happy with these flaws of the technology. Combine that with the greater sales of LED/LCD sets and there's not much incentive for them to do more than put out smaller runs of higher end/higher cost models for the videophiles.
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post #17 of 22 Old 02-07-2013, 03:33 PM
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Dmaul

You’re over dramatizing the “issues” of plasma. The average Joe-blow who never heard of IR would probably never notice an issue. And BTW- LCD’s aren’t immune to burn in either.

And there is no maintenance either except tuning it to the way you like it when you first buy it. I found both my Pannies had contast and brightness through the roof at the factory settings. You can find enthusiasts that mess around with everything all the time. It doesn’t mean it’s necessary. You’re almost trying to make the positive attributes of the platform that philes appreciate sound like a hindrance. You actually think only a phile can appreciate a superior picture?

My own perspective of displays has changed a lot in the last decade. But now there is a paradigm shift going on where I have the feeling you’ll see the general life expectancy of the average TV going down big time. I’m almost dead I’m so old, so I have an ingrained cheap-bastard tendency to make stuff last as long as possible. But I’m already seeing that it might be common practice to be buying new units every other decade to keep up with standards since lately, these things are changing so fast. And the panels are getting much cheaper at the same time. So not replacing them because they go bad, but just to keep up with technology. So if this is the case, why even worry about it? The same thing has happened to the PC already.. life expectancy is almost a non-issue expect in rare exceptions. Most computers way outlive their usefulness At least for games. I almost welcome a catastrophic PC failure as a reason to upgrade. Now I tend to wait way too long and then regret doing so after the fact...

My first unit cost a crazy $7000 and thought it was worth every penny at the time. But now less than 10 years later I get a superior unit for $1500.00 and its almost already obsolete with talk of 4K coming out. That friggin hurts. Since I use them as PC monitors I can always immediately use the higher resolution even if standards aren’t universally embraced yet. So this unit i have now, I'm just gonna beat the hell out of it and figure I'll be wanting to replace it another 10 years from now with something that is several generations better. My old perfectly good unit isn't even worth $500.
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post #18 of 22 Old 02-07-2013, 04:16 PM
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Well you can have IR on an LED set too. I've seen plenty in BBY when browsing through looking at sets, usually its the manufacturer layover that advertises the models features. It's pretty easy to get rid of IR, and its somewhat difficult to get in the first place. Just turn on pixel orbiter if you are worried about the kids. I convinced a friend to purchase an LG 60" display model from a store. He actually watches MSNBC and ESPN for several hours a day when working at home, with zero issues.

Something that hasn't been mentioned above this I'd like to add:
Slightly more premium models have better brightness, so you aren't tempted to run them on vivid/dynamic. I think those settings, aka Torch Mode, are more likely to cause some IR. If you have a Vizio around $1600 on the list, why not an ST50.

@dmaul - Joe Six Pack doesn't notice picture quality???? Anyone who cares enough to seek out an AV forum has enough concern has concern for all aspects of TV features. If not then everyone who isn't a "videophile" can buy a Westinghouse set and save some cash, right.

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post #19 of 22 Old 02-07-2013, 08:55 PM
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I guess it's more that someone like me who just doesn't give a rat's fart about getting a near reference picture shouldn't wast time on a site like this. Honestly just reading user reviews on amazon was more insightful for me as all I cared about was getting a decent picture and avoiding junk brands or models with a high rate of lemons.

If I hadn't read stuff on here I'd have just went led from the start and not wasted time getting swayed to trying plasma for pq when I knew I was unlikely to be happy due to past experience with buzzing, IR and not liking the dimmer screens as I don't like sitting around in a dark room.

So I'll just bow out of the site. A/V gear isn't my hobby. Sports, video games, tvs and movies are and I enjoy them equally on any decent big screen, so no sense reading this kind of site as it just leads to over analyzing gear and purchases rather than just buying the cheapest and biggest set from a name brand that fits my budget and usages.
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post #20 of 22 Old 02-08-2013, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmaul1114 View Post

I guess it's more that someone like me who just doesn't give a rat's fart about getting a near reference picture shouldn't wast time on a site like this. Honestly just reading user reviews on amazon was more insightful for me as all I cared about was getting a decent picture and avoiding junk brands or models with a high rate of lemons.

If I hadn't read stuff on here I'd have just went led from the start and not wasted time getting swayed to trying plasma for pq when I knew I was unlikely to be happy due to past experience with buzzing, IR and not liking the dimmer screens as I don't like sitting around in a dark room.

So I'll just bow out of the site. A/V gear isn't my hobby. Sports, video games, tvs and movies are and I enjoy them equally on any decent big screen, so no sense reading this kind of site as it just leads to over analyzing gear and purchases rather than just buying the cheapest and biggest set from a name brand that fits my budget and usages.

Well, your right, reading threads here can make one obsessive with details and over-analysis rolleyes.gif At some point you have to stop reading the forums and just enjoy your stuff.

BUT.....your bowing out now, after almost 700 posts???
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post #21 of 22 Old 03-06-2013, 05:07 PM
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Some of the worst IR I have ever seen (looked burned-in) was actually on an LG LED/LCD on display at the local Best Buy.
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post #22 of 22 Old 03-06-2013, 07:54 PM
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Some of the worst IR I have ever seen (looked burned-in) was actually on an LG LED/LCD on display at the local Best Buy.

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