Official Panasonic S60 Series Discussion Thread - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 7268 Old 03-27-2013, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by fairchild99 View Post

Yeah, it only has a 2-point gamma adjustment for RGB. (high and low) Meaning you adjust the 80 IRE pattern using the high adjustments for RGB, then check the 30 IRE pattern and use the low adjustments for RGB. The ST60 and above has better pro settings I heard. Not sure if a full 10-pt grayscale adjustment, but I heard it has a full CMS. The S60 only has RGB CMS adjustments. (missing the YCM adjustments)

You can still get a really good cal out of just two point and the ST60 has the 10 point grayscale adjustment

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post #272 of 7268 Old 03-27-2013, 05:37 PM
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Yeah, it only has a 2-point gamma adjustment for RGB. (high and low)

Yeah that's what I thought (like the ST50), but is it 100 steps for each high and low for RGB? I assume so, but want to make sure. Thanks.
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post #273 of 7268 Old 03-27-2013, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

.

Yeah that's what I thought (like the ST50), but is it 100 steps for each high and low for RGB? I assume so, but want to make sure. Thanks.


It's just 2 points high and low but yes same as ST50, GT50, UT50, U50

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post #274 of 7268 Old 03-27-2013, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

Yeah that's what I thought (like the ST50), but is it 100 steps for each high and low for RGB? I assume so, but want to make sure. Thanks.
It adjusts between -50 and +50 if that is what you mean.

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post #275 of 7268 Old 03-27-2013, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

It adjusts between -50 and +50 if that is what you mean.

Yes, that's what I was asking, thanks.
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post #276 of 7268 Old 03-27-2013, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by johnscare84 View Post

has anybody checked out the s64 it looks like its a better model then the s60, since it has the infinite black . I don't see that listed for the s60 . Right now i only see it available at sams club. Still waiting for more reviews for both models.

http://shop.panasonic.com/shop/model/TC-65PS64

http://www.samsclub.com/sams/65-600hz-plasma-tv-1080p-2-hdmi-wifi/prod9300314.ip

I am trying to spend ~$1500 on a new Panasonic and wanted a 65", but the S60 kind of worried me with no AR filter since I am moving to a new apartment with a few windows in viewing space. So I had settled on getting the 60" ST60, even though 3D would not be used and myHome feature is wasted since I have PS3 and HTPC for streaming things. I am not super picky about picture quality, as long as it looks good I am happy, but I would like some good, deep blacks.

This 65" S64 might be exactly what I am looking for, a no frills plasma, with an AR filter at $1500. Does anyone know when we might can expect these to be in store?
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post #277 of 7268 Old 03-27-2013, 09:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sodaboy581 View Post

It looks like the S64 series are definitely going to have an anti-glare filter. The official specs PDF on Panasonic site even says so (not to mention that page linked earlier):

http://shop.panasonic.com/docs/spec-sheet/2013/televisions/s64_series_spec-sheet.pdf

Clearly says "Filter: Louver", which is an anti-glare/reflective filter.

Filter is MISSING from the S60 specs PDF, says "--" in the PDF (And also missing in it's webpage):

http://shop.panasonic.com/docs/spec-sheet/2013/televisions/s60_series_spec-sheet.pdf

So it definitely looks like the S64 would be the model to get vs. the S60 if you've got lights in your room. wink.gif


Wow that will be great if that PDF is correct ! And i don't think it's unprecedented that the Costco version had a AR Filter where the national version did not - i seem to remember that a few years ago a Costco version having an AR Filter while the national model did not. It would make sense that Costco etc would want their version to have an AR Filter since the TVs are always displayed in brightly lit conditions. I imagine the glossy screens of past Pannys turned potential buyers off.

I also see they have a 50" size which would be a great secondary TV for a bright room.

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post #278 of 7268 Old 03-28-2013, 05:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

It adjusts between -50 and +50 if that is what you mean.

Ahh gotcha, thanks for the assist sir smile.gif

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post #279 of 7268 Old 03-28-2013, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

Wow that will be great if that PDF is correct ! And i don't think it's unprecedented that the Costco version had a AR Filter where the national version did not - i seem to remember that a few years ago a Costco version having an AR Filter while the national model did not. It would make sense that Costco etc would want their version to have an AR Filter since the TVs are always displayed in brightly lit conditions. I imagine the glossy screens of past Pannys turned potential buyers off.
I also see they have a 50" size which would be a great secondary TV for a bright room.

I don't see these on the Costco web site. Would they be an in-store only item?
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post #280 of 7268 Old 03-28-2013, 08:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by keyguy View Post

I don't see these (S64) on the Costco web site. Would they be an in-store only item?

Costco's online store inventory is completely separate from their brick-and-mortar store. Sometimes a particular "club" model is available from their online store but is not in any of my local stores, and other times it's in various stores but is not on their online store (i patronize 4 different Costcos in my area). Sam's Club is another store that typically carries the club models so check there as well.

It's possible that they're not in production yet, or if they are then they haven't been shipped to distribution centers or warehouses yet, etc. I was just in a Costco a few nights ago and i didn't see any Panasonic TVs at all (i always cut through the TV isle as soon as we enter the store LOL).

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post #281 of 7268 Old 03-28-2013, 08:49 AM
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I'd bet the S64 isn't available until mid or end-April.

I'm actually really interested in the 65" S64.

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post #282 of 7268 Old 03-28-2013, 09:21 AM
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So are we thinking that the black level will be the same on this as the ST60, differences being lack of filter on non Costco models and less picture controls?

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post #283 of 7268 Old 03-28-2013, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

So are we thinking that the black level will be the same on this as the ST60, differences being lack of filter on non Costco models and less picture controls?

I think the new picture controls on the S60 are the same as on the ST60 based on my quick scan of both models' E-Help manuals, but i haven't looked that closely.

As for black levels, i would presume the ST60's MLL and shadow detail etc would be a bit better since the ST60 has the higher end panel, and probably better processing and software etc.

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post #284 of 7268 Old 03-28-2013, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

I think the new picture controls on the S60 are the same as on the ST60 based on my quick scan of both models' E-Help manuals, but i haven't looked that closely.
Minus the fact that the ST60 has 10 point white balance vs. S60's 2 point. (That's already been confirmed in the ST60 thread.)

I can't recall if the ST60 has CMS or not, though.

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post #285 of 7268 Old 03-28-2013, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sodaboy581 View Post

Minus the fact that the ST60 has 10 point white balance vs. S60's 2 point. (That's already been confirmed in the ST60 thread.)

I can't recall if the ST60 has CMS or not, though.

It has the full CMS

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post #286 of 7268 Old 03-28-2013, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

I think the new picture controls on the S60 are the same as on the ST60 based on my quick scan of both models' E-Help manuals, but i haven't looked that closely.

As for black levels, i would presume the ST60's MLL and shadow detail etc would be a bit better since the ST60 has the higher end panel, and probably better processing and software etc.

Last year, I think the UT was measuring the same as the ST, so it piqued my interest on the lower level models.

I'm still thinking of waiting for the 2014 models, since they're supposed to be completely new panels, not upgrades of last year's models. Trying to disregard that CNET article about Panasonic ending the plasma division next year...

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post #287 of 7268 Old 03-29-2013, 02:00 PM
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I decided to check out the TVs while I was in SAMs club, and like I expected, they still only had 60u54 or which ever from last year. Crossing my fingers that they will have the 65" S64 in stock by the end of April or I may have to go 60 ST60.
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post #288 of 7268 Old 03-29-2013, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

Wow that will be great if that PDF is correct ! And i don't think it's unprecedented that the Costco version had a AR Filter where the national version did not - i seem to remember that a few years ago a Costco version having an AR Filter while the national model did not. It would make sense that Costco etc would want their version to have an AR Filter since the TVs are always displayed in brightly lit conditions. I imagine the glossy screens of past Pannys turned potential buyers off.

I also see they have a 50" size which would be a great secondary TV for a bright room.

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post #289 of 7268 Old 03-29-2013, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by unclerunkle View Post

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All over it when it comes out then. smile.gif

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post #290 of 7268 Old 03-29-2013, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

That's great. I hate AR filters, as they dramatically reduce the depth and clarity of the image. Do you know if the panel itself is the same as the ST60? Specifically, is the only difference in black level that which is the result of the AR filter and not the pixels themselves?

Damn, and I was all excited about the S64 having a filter. Anyone else feel this way as well? I haven't seen too many people disappointed with the Louvre filter.
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post #291 of 7268 Old 03-29-2013, 05:31 PM
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So what does this Louvre filter do again if it's not anti-reflective coating? I thought they were both the same thing.

Edit: I did some digging and it is an AR filter of sorts. Snippet from another post:

"I have read in some spots that the louvre filter basically is like vinetian blinds for the tv, blocking light from above."

"I've found on the ST50 that the filter seems to be for blocking light from above like a ceiling light.
This causes reduced contrast if you view the TV at an angle above the display.
My ST50 is on a table stand that is at eye-level when I am sitting on the couch, but if I stand up the image is lower contrast and washed out.
I can however sit on the floor at a level below the display and thats OK like viewing at eye-level."

So it's an AR filter of sorts, but not sure if it's only meant for blocking out light from just above the display, or if it will also help with ambient light from say a window that is to the side of the display. Either way I'm happy with my S60 without any filter. smile.gif

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post #292 of 7268 Old 03-29-2013, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by fairchild99 View Post

So what does this Louvre filter do again if it's not anti-reflective coating? I thought they were both the same thing.

Edit: I did some digging and it is an AR filter of sorts. Snippet from another post:

"I have read in some spots that the louvre filter basically is like vinetian blinds for the tv, blocking light from above."

"I've found on the ST50 that the filter seems to be for blocking light from above like a ceiling light.
This causes reduced contrast if you view the TV at an angle above the display.
My ST50 is on a table stand that is at eye-level when I am sitting on the couch, but if I stand up the image is lower contrast and washed out.
I can however sit on the floor at a level below the display and thats OK like viewing at eye-level."

So it's an AR filter of sorts, but not sure if it's only meant for blocking out light from just above the display, or if it will also help with ambient light from say a window that is to the side of the display. Either way I'm happy with my S60 without any filter. smile.gif

Yeah, it's just they're name for the AR filter. I read that about it being designed for overhead lights. Interesting how you said the picture is the same from ground level...so I guess they weren't joking and it's at least one line of ad copy that's true. I'm also wondering how well it works for side and front reflections. Most folks on here seem to be saying it's effective in general. However, people sometimes just follow what's written and repeat it. Most didn't notice the ad copy about it being for light sources above the tv. I also believe the AR filter is different on one or more of the higher end models as well and I don't hear people talk about that either.
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post #293 of 7268 Old 03-30-2013, 12:51 PM
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So, I've had a 50" S60 in my living room for the past 48 hours. I'm glad to say, this set is awesome. Being that this is my first time owning a plasma, I had the usual concerns...

Heat generation - kept the thing on for 16 hours straight on day 1, and by the end it wasn't hot at all. maybe a little warm, but no more so than a crt would be.

Audible buzzing - with a high APL image on the screen, I was able to hear the slightest of buzzes if I put my ear within 6 inches of either side of the tv. darker screens and further distance, and i couldn't hear any buzz at all. even with a bright image, there was no buzz that i could hear directly in front of the screen no matter how close i got. only the side edges, and i guess probably the back, had the slight buzz.

Image retention - I know, I know, break in period and all that, but being a first-time plasma owner I wanted to see if I could produce some mild IR just so I could get a feel of how easy it is to make happen, and how hard it would be to remove. On the first night, after the tv had been on with 16:9 content for about 12 hours, I watched Wall-E in 2.35:1 ratio with black bars on top and bottom. The movie is about 1h 45min, and when it was over I threw up a solid light gray screen to check for IR. I couldn't see any IR at all. The following day I watched almost 4 hours of baseball with static score graphics in the corner. This was on mlb.tv, so during commercial breaks there was a mostly static slate with the mlb logo in the center. I put up that gray screen again when the game was over, and I couldn't see any trace of the graphics left behind.

Glare/Reflections - yes, this is a giant piece of glass with no anti-glare coating, but I found that this wasn't much of an issue in my room. I have a south-facing window to the left of the tv (left while facing the tv), and an east-facing window on the wall opposite the tv, but not directly in front of the screen. I get the most light during the morning hours, but none of it is direct sunlight thanks to some helpful oak tree coverage. Even in the brightest conditions, the reflections on the screen are not that bad. If you have more troublesome window arrangements, I could see this being an issue, but really once you turn the tv on it's own brightness overpowers all the reflections except in the darkest scenes. Once I get past noon or 1pm, my room gets dimmer and even the slight issues disappear.

Screen Brightness - I've never had a plasma of my own, but I have several friends with older model plasmas from various brands. Compared to those, this tv is bright! It is bright and the colors are rich and the blacks are dark. What more can I ask for?

So that's all good!

As for calibration, I am not a pro calibrator. I do my best with test patterns, but my priority is always on my own enjoyment and not 100% accuracy, so honestly I have no idea if the settings I ended up with are 'correct.' My only input source to this tv is a mac mini htpc running XBMC, hdmi to my sony soundbar system, and then hdmi to the tv. I'd say about 95% of my viewing is from within XBMC, with the rest through browser web players.

When I first hooked it up, I ran through the mac's color profile setup through system preferences. Ended up setting the mini to output a target 2.2 gamma level, and the white point balance set to native. That's not all that interesting, and it's what I expected. I then pulled up the basic avs709 test pattern mp4's from within XBMC, since that's how I'll be watching most everything. I set the tv picture to cinema mode, but before I even touched any other settings, I found that I had to tweak XBMC's own picture settings first. (For those unaware, XBMC has brightness and contrast sliders that can be adjusted for each video being played, and it can save and apply those settings to all videos or remember specific settings for individual videos. The slider goes from 1-100 with the default at 50.) On the black level pattern, I had to push XBMC's brightness up to 54 to make the flashing bars visible enough to work with. On the white level pattern, I had to decrease the contrast to 48 to see enough white bars flashing. I saved and applied these adjustments globally within XBMC.

I'm at work right now, so I don't have all the specific tv settings I finally went with, but here's the gist of it.

I saw a big difference for the better when I enabled the 1080p 4:4:4 setting. I googled around, but couldn't definitively find whether my mac mini outputs 4:4:4 color gamut, but I'm guessing it does since turning the setting on made the rest of the calibration easier.

I set panel brightness to Mid, thanks to looking at fairchild's settings. I honestly could not tell much difference between the Mid and High settings in either a bright or dark room, but both seemed to give a more lively picture than Low.

Black level is set to Light. Color gamut is Normal.

Color temp, I went with Warm 1 based on personal preference. Warm 2 was too warm for me. I turned off all the extra processing stuff like CATS, black extension, noise reduction, etc, etc. I couldn't see any difference between Vivid Color being on or off, looking at bright outdoor scenes from Planet Earth, so I left it turned off.

Then I went back to the black level pattern and started messing with the picture settings finally. I had to drop the brightness down to about -9, I think, to compensate for raising the brightness within XBMC. Black levels came out PERFECT. So very, very black. Bar 16 reference black stayed black, and bar 17 could be seen blinking ever so slightly. Later on, I put on Return of the King with the scene where Frodo is creeping through the icky spider cave, and the shadow detail in the rock backgrounds blew me away.

On the white level test pattern, I found that my XBMC contrast setting was the more important one to calibrate, as by default it was clipping the whites. Like I said before, at the default 50, I couldn't see any bars blinking at all, regardless of what I did with the tv contrast. Dropping the XBMC contrast to 48 I got blinking white bars visible to I think 237 or 238 (234 is reference white). Then I went back to the tv's contrast, which on Cinema is set to 85 by default, and I found that changing the setting had no effect on whether more or less white bars became visible/invisible. I'm not sure if I'm clueless and doing something wrong here. Lowering the contrast, even all the way down to 0, made the screen dimmer but the same number of bars could be seen. Raising it all the way to 100 made the screen brighter, but again no change in how many blinking bars I could see. So I kept it at 85, since that was the default for the Cinema profile. (By comparison, the Home Theater profile has contrast at 100.) Later, while watching Wall-E, I pushed the contrast up to 95, then backed it off to 90, and I think that's got it looking best according to my personal preferences. (If anyone has any ideas on how I could set the tv contrast 'correctly' feel free to educate me, but I'm quite happy with my current end result.)

Color stepping was almost perfect, with just the brightest two steps blending together on green and cyan. If I worked at it, I'm sure I could get those steps to differentiate, but I'm not all that concerned.

For tweaking the colors, I popped in an episode of Star Trek TNG from the season 2 bluray. I literally grew up watching TNG when it first aired, and I've probably gone through the entire series 5 more times in the 20 years since it's ended, so I can confidently say I KNOW what the color of those red, yellow, and blue uniforms should look like, or I at least have a strong preference. The only adjustment I ended up making was increasing the Red Hue a few points (to +3, I think, but I'd have to check). At 0, the reds in Picard's uniform looked a tad on the purplish side, so pushing it up to +3 had it looking more red to my eyes. As I watched this episode and other programming after, I ended up increasing the overall Color setting a bit. I had pushed it up as high as 60, but I think I ended up backing it off a bit to 57 or 58. Again, I'd have to check when I get home because my memory is notsogood.

Somewhere in the middle of this process I experimented with the tv's gamma setting and adjusted the brightness accordingly with 2.2 (default), 2.4 and 2.6, but I think it looked best with the 2.2 default, so that's where I left it.

And that's about it! I watched Wall-E and ESPN and baseball and an episode of Planet Earth and some other stuff, and, to me, the picture is the most perfect picture I've ever seen outside a reference monitor. I know this is probably old news to folks who've owned plasmas before, but I turned off all the lights and had the room pitch dark, then had the tv on and resting on a full black screen, and the room stayed DARK. I could see the rectangle of the tv lit up ever so slightly, of course, but it output almost no light into the room and I ended up stubbing my toe really bad on the coffee table. Comparing this to every LCD I've ever had, I was pretty amazed.

Not sure what else I can say, but if anyone has any questions for me, I'm happy to do some experimenting with my tv on your behalf. Of course, given that I'm using a mac mini with XBMC as my primary (and likely only) input, I know the settings I ended up with are tailored specifically to the output of that computer and probably won't work perfectly when inputting from dedicated bluray players or cable boxes, but if you want to know the precise settings I ended up with I'm happy to take a look when I get home. Likewise if anyone has any tips on how I can get it looking even better than it looks now, I'm all ears, though I have to say I have a hard time imagining how much better it could possibly look.

Hope this helped anyone who's thinking of picking one of these up!
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post #294 of 7268 Old 03-30-2013, 01:29 PM
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Great report and observations Mike. Looks like you've got a winner in the S60.
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post #295 of 7268 Old 03-30-2013, 03:45 PM
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Mike Sanders = The Man!

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Panasonic P65S60|Toshiba HD-A2|SA8300HD|Harmony One
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Chad B just reviewed the ST60. It measured slightly better than the VT50 in nearly all aspects. eek.gif

If the S60 has identical or comparable PQ, then what a TV! biggrin.gif
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post #297 of 7268 Old 03-30-2013, 07:08 PM
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Yes and according to his review, it doesn't have a full CMS. (no YCM controls just RGB) So I don't feel AS bad for not shelling out the extra dough for the ST60. I mean the ST60 does still have the 10-pt grayscale and 2500 FFD panel but aside from that hopefully the performance isn't too far apart.

Sony 32" EX400 calibrated settings
Panasonic 50" S60 calibrated settings
HTPC/Sony S5100 to Sony HT-CT660 to Panasonic 55" VT60, Sony 32" EX400, Panasonic 50" S60
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post #298 of 7268 Old 03-31-2013, 10:52 AM
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Anyone have any other calibration settings for the s60? I have two other kuro 9g's in my house and the s60 looks dull comparatively.
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post #299 of 7268 Old 03-31-2013, 01:14 PM
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Personally, I can't stand anti-glare coatings, as they significantly reduce the depth and clarity of the image (as well as the brightness). Yes, they do reduce glare, but at a very heafty cost in loss of picture fidelity. I have an ST50, which has an antiglare coating, and which I've hated from day one. I'm seriously considering selling it and buying an S60 just get a set without a coating. They're an abomination as far as I'm concerned, though I know I'm in the minority on this.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

Personally, I can't stand anti-glare coatings, as they significantly reduce the depth and clarity of the image (as well as the brightness). Yes, they do reduce glare, but at a very heafty cost in loss of picture fidelity. I have an ST50, which has an antiglare coating, and which I've hated from day one. I'm seriously considering selling it and buying an S60 just get a set without a coating. They're an abomination as far as I'm concerned, though I know I'm in the minority on this.

Do you have any evidence for this? Just curious.
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