Official Panasonic S60 Series Discussion Thread - Page 115 - AVS Forum
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post #3421 of 7148 Old 08-21-2013, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by SeLfMaDe111985 View Post

Curious question...for some reason I can it view CNETS review of the s60 it keeps telling me there site is down or maybe it's just my
Phone. I wanted to see what they said about the ST50 vs S60. Can someone please post the S60 review for me it's really
Annoying I can't look at it. Thanks

Here it is, http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/panasonic-tc-p60s60/4505-6482_7-35558331.html#!
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post #3422 of 7148 Old 08-21-2013, 08:02 AM
 
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Thanks Tim but it won't let me see it keeps telling me its a broke link...do you mind copying and pasting the review?? Is that legal here?
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post #3423 of 7148 Old 08-21-2013, 08:14 AM
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Yeah, I'm not going to stretch the content. I don't watch hours on end of 4:3 content, but I do watch a fair number of older shows in that format. I don't think my viewing habits are any different than an average viewer watching movies that have the horizontal bars, so I'm not worried about the "aging" of the phosphors, but should I be? If so, I'll just return the S64 and stick with LCDs.

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See, I find it unacceptable that a TV technology would not be suitable for all types of viewing. As long as you don't watch SD all day long (for instance, someone who gets SD OTA and rarely watches Blu-rays or DVDs, like my grandparents), shouldn't the plasma be okay? I've only had the TV for a week and for the most part, starting to like it and enjoy it. I liked my Samsung LED well enough except for a few issues, and I liked not having to worry about IR, but I think a lot of people are blowing the issue out of proportion. However, if I'm wrong, I'll box this set up and return it this weekend if I'm going to regret buying a plasma because of uneven aging that makes the set look like crap in six months to a year. Sorry, I'm probably overstating things here, but I don't want to worry about it. If I can't just enjoy the damn thing I'll take it back and keep my 46" LED or go with the 55" Vizio M Series, which was my other pick.

I'm not going to waste time by talking about should and should nots about current display technologies. The simple fact is that you have to be careful with plasma televisions. No matter what some say, issues with uneven phosphor aging and ir/burnin exist, and you should be mindful of them when using your plasma television.

Most will not have an issue, but some will. You have to be mindful of a technologies limitations to best circumvent them.
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post #3424 of 7148 Old 08-21-2013, 08:25 AM
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People also say that IR doesn't get better with panel age, but I really don't know about that. My parents watch plenty of 4:3 material on their TV and I've never seen any IR.

I think if you don't watch 4:3 stuff all the time, you'll be fine. There are plenty of plasma owners who watch letterboxed movies, and I believe this is no different. Just try not to overdo it I guess.

I got some very slight IR from watching a letterboxed movie and it was gone in about 10 minutes of watching other content. I think people make this a way bigger issue than it really is. As long as you don't leave a 4:3 image on overnight, I think you'll be fine. Just mix up the content as you normally would.

As a side question, is there any way to change Screen Format when I'm using the TV's built in media player? I can't do so when I'm using the TV's Netflix player.
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post #3425 of 7148 Old 08-21-2013, 08:33 AM
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People also say that IR doesn't get better with panel age, but I really don't know about that. My parents watch plenty of 4:3 material on their TV and I've never seen any IR.

I think if you don't watch 4:3 stuff all the time, you'll be fine. There are plenty of plasma owners who watch letter boxed movies, and I believe this is no different. Just try not to overdo it I guess.

I got some very slight IR from watching a letter boxed movie and it was gone in about 10 minutes of watching other content. I think people make this a way bigger issue than it really is. As long as you don't leave a 4:3 image on overnight, I think you'll be fine. Just mix up the content as you normally would.

As a side question, is there any way to change Screen Format when I'm using the TV's built in media player? I can't do so when I'm using the TV's Netflix player.

I seem to remember some suggesting limiting letter boxed content to either 1/4 or 1/3 of total viewing time. Because plasma's simply don't light up pixels that aren't in use (for the most part), if you watched letter boxed content for 1/2 time time, those pixels outside the letter box will have 1/2 the use as the ones inside. Since plasma's lose brightness over time there is where you can start noticing that the area's outside the letterbox will be slightly brighter than the ones inside.

Not technically burn-in, but has the same end result. But also, keep in mind the half life so to speak of these sets brightness is over 10 years of continuous use.
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post #3426 of 7148 Old 08-21-2013, 08:48 AM
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I'm not going to waste time by talking about should and should nots about current display technologies. The simple fact is that you have to be careful with plasma televisions. No matter what some say, issues with uneven phosphor aging and ir/burnin exist, and you should be mindful of them when using your plasma television.

Most will not have an issue, but some will. You have to be mindful of a technologies limitations to best circumvent them.

And I agree, but I just don't think (and this is just my personal opinion) that the average viewer who watches a variety of content has to worry about it. If I watch a 2+ hour movie in widescreen, that's normal. If I watch a marathon of the LOTR extended editions with no breaks, that's not normal. If I watch 4:3 SD all the time, that's not normal. But if I watch HD content from my provider that fills the screen most of the time, and a few movies here and there, as well as some 4:3 content, that's normal. It's really when people leave static content on the set that the burn-in or excessive IR will become an issue, if I understand correctly. For instance, I wouldn't buy a plasma for a TV that would be on CNN at the airport all day; the ticker and bugs would burn-in to the set. If I had hours and hours of gaming sessions I would avoid plasma, but for the few continuous hours I game, not an issue, IMO.

You're telling me what I and everyone already seems to know. No offense. I'm just saying that I think the issue is overblown to the point that people think, OMG! I watched a movie (or 4:3 content for an hour) with black bars, I better run the pixel refresher/swipe to avoid burn-in. If the technology were that bad, I think more professionals would be warning us to stay away from plasma entirely. And manufacturers would have killed plasma by now. Can we get a perspective from a professional in the AV industry on the topic?
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post #3427 of 7148 Old 08-21-2013, 08:59 AM
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You make very points Toonmastertim! I have chosen to display SD on my old lcd for a specific reason. The video quality is fine on a smaller LCD but would not look good in SD on a 50 inch plasma tv, even worse stretched. My main reason for keeping the old lcd handy is that I use an HD-PVR for recording video and it needs to be connected to a tv and the dvr.
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post #3428 of 7148 Old 08-21-2013, 10:28 AM
 
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Completely torn....read everything all reviews and feedback from owners. The S60/64 is no slouch but the motion and step of gradients are better on ST50 but blacks and some other things are improved on the 2013 models even the S60...arrrghh 60ST50 (1695$)or 60S60(999$) amazon 65S64 (1288$ SAMs but need membership so that's 100$ too). Damn...I'm not a huge stickler but knowing I have good motion is nice but also like having better blacks too which IMO is a little more important as well as quality seems to be better this year than past years. If I remember correctly the 30 series had alot of issues which some still plagued the 50 series...so I can only guess the 60 series have better quality to them. What would AVS do?
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post #3429 of 7148 Old 08-21-2013, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by SeLfMaDe111985 View Post

Completely torn....read everything all reviews and feedback from owners. The S60/64 is no slouch but the motion and step of gradients are better on ST50 but blacks and some other things are improved on the 2013 models even the S60...arrrghh 60ST50 (1695$)or 60S60(999$) amazon 65S64 (1288$ SAMs but need membership so that's 100$ too). Damn...I'm not a huge stickler but knowing I have good motion is nice but also like having better blacks too which IMO is a little more important as well as quality seems to be better this year than past years. If I remember correctly the 30 series had alot of issues which some still plagued the 50 series...so I can only guess the 60 series have better quality to them. What would AVS do?

Personally, I would always go with the newer model, so I'd choose the S60/4 or the ST60. The 60" ST60 was on sale at BB for around $1300-$1400 at last check, cheaper than the 55" version as I recall.
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post #3430 of 7148 Old 08-21-2013, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by SeLfMaDe111985 View Post

Completely torn....read everything all reviews and feedback from owners. The S60/64 is no slouch but the motion and step of gradients are better on ST50 but blacks and some other things are improved on the 2013 models even the S60...arrrghh 60ST50 (1695$)or 60S60(999$) amazon 65S64 (1288$ SAMs but need membership so that's 100$ too). Damn...I'm not a huge stickler but knowing I have good motion is nice but also like having better blacks too which IMO is a little more important as well as quality seems to be better this year than past years. If I remember correctly the 30 series had alot of issues which some still plagued the 50 series...so I can only guess the 60 series have better quality to them. What would AVS do?

Is there some reason why you are not including the 60ST60 in those you are considering. At $1,500, it would give you both the AR coating, better black levels, and the 3D option, which even if you do not ever use it, will still probably add to resale value down the road?
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post #3431 of 7148 Old 08-21-2013, 10:42 AM
 
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Yea but the lag and sync issues with the ST60 would eat me alive..even though I may not notice it..just knowing its there would drive me nuts. And I know most in here feel the same...sometimes joking AVS was a bad idea I think lol has made me very picky but get over 1k on a electronic I should be picky
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post #3432 of 7148 Old 08-21-2013, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by SeLfMaDe111985 View Post

Yea but the lag and sync issues with the ST60 would eat me alive..even though I may not notice it..just knowing its there would drive me nuts. And I know most in here feel the same...sometimes joking AVS was a bad idea I think lol has made me very picky but get over 1k on a electronic I should be picky

Understood. Here is what I would do, if I were in your position, in order to escape from the Paralysis By Analysis trap that you are in. Decide if you need the filter coating or not. If you do, then you can drop the S60 from consideration. That leaves you with the choice between going with the ST50 or S64. Toss a coin way up in the air, with heads for ST50, and tails for S64. Then before it lands and you look at which side came up, pay close attention to which one you are hoping it will be. That will be the one you should order, and just ignore how the coin actually landed. Good luck.smile.gifsmile.gif
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post #3433 of 7148 Old 08-21-2013, 11:34 AM
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I think the effect reduces as the set gets more hours. I noticed the same yellow flashes really bad when I first got my set but after a few months I didn't see them anymore.
It does diminish over time for those who are prone to seeing it. However, just how much it goes away depends more on the person's sensitivity to it than the panel.

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Originally Posted by anthongy817 View Post

While doing the break in method using the slides and default custom picture mode, is it normal to hear buzzing on the brighter slides? Will the buzzing lessen with more hours?
Yes, buzzing is normal, especially on all- or near-white slides/images. You'll also get it a lot in scenes of static cartoons, like Family Guy. Just how much it bothers you depends on your ambient noise (A/C, neighborhood traffic, etc.) and how much you listen for it during normal viewing. If it's "excessive", that is, even buzzing noticeably in dark scenes, you may have a slightly defective panel, or a screw could be loose. It depends.

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Yeah man, I've been following this thread every day since it started... saw your whole ordeal earlier in the year. I only played for about 45mins. No IR. Also, I have the Disney WOW Bluray sitting right here, if I ever need the pixel flipper. I'm mounting it tomorrow. I'll post a picture soon....
Smart man! smile.gif

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Since this seemed problematic for you with your previous panel, I don't suppose that you would be willing to play a few hours of Infinite after you accrue some hours and report back with your experience? After putting several stressful weeks in a row at work, I plan to take a long weekend sometime in the near future and (likely) rally through the original Bioshock again immediately proceeded by Infinite. I played through the latter over the course of about three days on my Pioneer 101FD and the HUD left zero IR. (no turning down the contrast or any such nonsense either) I don't game as much as I used to, but being able to use my television as... well, a television is high on my priority list.
My main problem was that I was so pumped to play through Infinite that almost immediately after my initial 100 hours of slides, I dove into the entire campaign of Infinite in 3 days. That's something like 8 hours of gameplay each day that I was on, so yeah, I'm sort of a worst-case scenario. I also didn't vary up any content between sessions to really spot the IR, so that was another strike against me.

I won't make the same mistake again, as not only will I be a bit more careful for the first few hundred hours, but I also don't have Infinite anymore (borrowed it at the time from a friend).

As long as you don't do any marathon sessions with your set in the first few hundred hours, vary up your content, and throw in that pixel flipper from WoW every now and then, IR will be the last thing on your mind.

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Question, I noticed there is a setting for the black bars seen when watching 4:3 content. Last night I turned it to "Off." Is this the preferred setting? I think it was set to Normal or something before and the bars didn't seem completely black while I watched an episode of The Twilight Zone.
I tend to leave it to a medium (50%) gray (forget what the option is) to help balance any 4:3 out with the unused sides.
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See, I find it unacceptable that a TV technology would not be suitable for all types of viewing. As long as you don't watch SD all day long (for instance, someone who gets SD OTA and rarely watches Blu-rays or DVDs, like my grandparents), shouldn't the plasma be okay?
If someone mostly watches SD content and rarely, if ever, plays Blu-Rays, they should be looking for a good CRT on Craigslist, not a modern-day HDTV. Just a waste of money for the newer sets for that kind of viewing.

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Yea but the lag and sync issues with the ST60 would eat me alive..even though I may not notice it..just knowing its there would drive me nuts. And I know most in here feel the same...sometimes joking AVS was a bad idea I think lol has made me very picky but get over 1k on a electronic I should be picky
Check your PM in a minute.
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post #3434 of 7148 Old 08-21-2013, 12:47 PM
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You guys are seriously exaggerating the IR/image burn issue

I have watched hundreds of hours of 4/3 media (anime) with black bars and have left an image on for 2-3 hours ( PC didn't turn off the monitor!). It's true you will get transient image retention if you immediately try looking for it, but it goes away in a couple of minutes. I have had no issues of image burn

Stop trying to scare everyone
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post #3435 of 7148 Old 08-21-2013, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by SeLfMaDe111985 View Post

Completely torn....read everything all reviews and feedback from owners. The S60/64 is no slouch but the motion and step of gradients are better on ST50 but blacks and some other things are improved on the 2013 models even the S60...arrrghh 60ST50 (1695$)or 60S60(999$) amazon 65S64 (1288$ SAMs but need membership so that's 100$ too). Damn...I'm not a huge stickler but knowing I have good motion is nice but also like having better blacks too which IMO is a little more important as well as quality seems to be better this year than past years. If I remember correctly the 30 series had alot of issues which some still plagued the 50 series...so I can only guess the 60 series have better quality to them. What would AVS do?

Paying more for a smaller display from last year... Yeah that sounds like a great idea

Black levels between the s60 and st50 are equal, pq s60 is better.

Why are you torn over this, the s60/s64 is a clear winner. If gaming is not an issue then go with the st60

It surprises me how many anxious/OCD people are here on AVS, you guys make it sound like this is a life/death situation, come on guys there's a reason TV's have return policies
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post #3436 of 7148 Old 08-21-2013, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by SeLfMaDe111985 View Post

The S60/64 is no slouch but the motion and step of gradients are better on ST50 but blacks and some other things are improved on the 2013 models even the S60...arrrghh 60ST50 (1695$)or 60S60(999$) amazon 65S64 (1288$ SAMs but need membership so that's 100$ too).

Sam's basic membership is only $40. Costco's basic membership is $55.
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post #3437 of 7148 Old 08-21-2013, 01:34 PM
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Went ahead and bought a P50S60...(sigh).

It's a beautiful image; can't think of when I've seen a better image on a television... but this is my first plasma so I may be an easy sell. Only problem is that it is a 50" instead of a 42" (too big). Couldn't pass up the price though, got a good deal.
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post #3438 of 7148 Old 08-21-2013, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by shenaniganz08 View Post

You guys are seriously exaggerating the IR/image burn issue

I have watched hundreds of hours of 4/3 media (anime) with black bars and have left an image on for 2-3 hours ( PC didn't turn off the monitor!). It's true you will get transient image retention if you immediately try looking for it, but it goes away in a couple of minutes. I have had no issues of image burn

Stop trying to scare everyone

Not trying to scare anyone, just making sure the potential issues are clear. You can't avoid issues you think don't exist.

What is worse, telling people to be careful or telling them there is no problem, to go nuts, and have them potentially ruin their beautiful, expensive new TV?
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post #3439 of 7148 Old 08-21-2013, 01:59 PM
 
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I seem to remember some suggesting limiting letter boxed content to either 1/4 or 1/3 of total viewing time. Because plasma's simply don't light up pixels that aren't in use (for the most part), if you watched letter boxed content for 1/2 time time, those pixels outside the letter box will have 1/2 the use as the ones inside. Since plasma's lose brightness over time there is where you can start noticing that the area's outside the letterbox will be slightly brighter than the ones inside.

Not technically burn-in, but has the same end result. But also, keep in mind the half life so to speak of these sets brightness is over 10 years of continuous use.
This is exactly what transpired on my Pioneer at only about 2000 hours. I watched mostly movies and since most utilized widescreen aspect ratios, there was a preponderance of lack of usage in the top and bottom bars. Thus, those bars experienced less wear and were not as dim as the rest of the panel. I have a feeling OLED will not be immune from this phenomenon.

I fully expect it to happen again on the ZT60, but nothing can compare PQ-wise, so it's a price I have to pay.
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post #3440 of 7148 Old 08-21-2013, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by shenaniganz08 View Post

You guys are seriously exaggerating the IR/image burn issue

I have watched hundreds of hours of 4/3 media (anime) with black bars and have left an image on for 2-3 hours ( PC didn't turn off the monitor!). It's true you will get transient image retention if you immediately try looking for it, but it goes away in a couple of minutes. I have had no issues of image burn

Stop trying to scare everyone

Well said. And my point exactly.
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post #3441 of 7148 Old 08-21-2013, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by shenaniganz08 View Post

You guys are seriously exaggerating the IR/image burn issue

I have watched hundreds of hours of 4/3 media (anime) with black bars and have left an image on for 2-3 hours ( PC didn't turn off the monitor!). It's true you will get transient image retention if you immediately try looking for it, but it goes away in a couple of minutes. I have had no issues of image burn

Stop trying to scare everyone

This happens every single year , when new models come out with newbies complaining and whining, I feel for the ones that truly get burned, but most are just over paranoid.

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Well said. And my point exactly.

Amen to that.

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post #3442 of 7148 Old 08-21-2013, 02:49 PM
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This happens every single year , when new models come out with newbies complaining and whining, I feel for the ones that truly get burned, but most are just over paranoid.
Amen to that.

The funny thing is that this same conversation is happening in both the S60 thread and in the ST60 thread.
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post #3443 of 7148 Old 08-21-2013, 03:02 PM
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I've seen some IR twice. Once after a 2-3 hour session of Lego Lord of the Rings, and once after accidentally leaving Netflix on the splash image (where you can select Netflix or Netflix Kids). Both were minor and only noticeable on full image slides. And both were gone within minutes.

So I'd just say be careful. Just don't do anything with a static image for over 3 hours. And in most games, a static HUD won't be there ALL the time. After a few hours you might notice some IR, but from what I've seen it'll be gone after slides or playing of other content.

It's an issue, but under normal circumstances won't be a big deal. Just don't be playing a game for 5 hours at a time and you'll be fine.

Oh, how I wish I had time to play a game for 5 hours at a time.

And my two cents? If you're a gamer, the S60 is the way to go over th ST60. You'll have to put up with some banding, but it really hasn't shown up to me in any situation that really matters. And if you're sitting 7 feet or more away from the TV, it's probably even less of an issue. I'd rather deal with banding than have Donkey Kong feel like he has iron boots strapped to him all the time. So far the S64 seems to be a great compromise between PQ and input lag.
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Xenon is dead-on correct, though. If you use your plasma TV exclusively for one type of viewing (or not even exclusively but as a majority of your viewing), the chances for uneven phosphor wear increase significantly. I can say this with relative confidence after 5 years of personal experience. I do hope this year's panels will be more resilient than those in year's past, but that's all it is for now, a hope. wink.gif
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post #3445 of 7148 Old 08-21-2013, 04:28 PM
 
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What kind of files can the S60 read off of a USB stick ? Mp4 ?
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post #3446 of 7148 Old 08-21-2013, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xenon9887 View Post

Not trying to scare anyone, just making sure the potential issues are clear. You can't avoid issues you think don't exist.

What is worse, telling people to be careful or telling them there is no problem, to go nuts, and have them potentially ruin their beautiful, expensive new TV?

yes but people are telling others that they need to avoid watching 4/3 media or that they have to stretch their image because otherwise its going to ruin their television set. My big concern is that this thread is easy to find on google and many people considering buying a plasma are going to be scared off by these extravagant claims.

IRL I'm a pediatrician. When counseling patients about risky behaviors you make sure they are aware of the risks but you don't beat them down about it.

Yes you need to be careful about leaving a static image on for several hours, but if you watch mixed media it should not be a problem
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post #3447 of 7148 Old 08-21-2013, 06:10 PM
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If some of you recall, I had a 50" S64. Decided it was too small and returned it. Have a 65" S60 getting delivered in the morning. Very excited to see this puppy in action.
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post #3448 of 7148 Old 08-21-2013, 06:18 PM
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If some of you recall, I had a 50" S64. Decided it was too small and returned it. Have a 65" S60 getting delivered in the morning. Very excited to see this puppy in action.

Curious about why you chose the 65 inch S60 instead of the 65 inch S64.
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post #3449 of 7148 Old 08-21-2013, 07:38 PM
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Curious about why you chose the 65 inch S60 instead of the 65 inch S64.
I waited way too long to buy it and all the local Sams/Costcos were sold out last week when I was ready to make the purchase. I would have certainly preferred the S64 but it's going in the basement so it's not a big deal.
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post #3450 of 7148 Old 08-21-2013, 07:42 PM
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IRL I'm a pediatrician.
Wow! Thats pretty cool.

No, Mr. Bond. I expect you to die!
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Reply Plasma Flat Panel Displays

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