Official Panasonic S60 Series Discussion Thread - Page 151 - AVS Forum
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post #4501 of 7187 Old 10-10-2013, 08:47 PM
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As I've said, I personally really hate A/R coatings. In fact, I think they're one the worst things ever invented for TVs. I wouldn't mind them being an option, as there is a need in some environments - my objection is mainly that they are universally applied to virtually every set and there is no way to get one without one (unless the specific model doesn't include one, which is extremely rare and usually only on low end models). If I could have gotten the ST60 without a coating, that's what I would have no doubt bought.
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post #4502 of 7187 Old 10-10-2013, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

As I've said, I personally really hate A/R coatings. In fact, I think they're one the worst things ever invented for TVs. I wouldn't mind them being an option, as there is a need in some environments - my objection is mainly that they are universally applied to virtually every set and there is no way to get one without one (unless the specific model doesn't include one, which is extremely rare and usually only on low end models). If I could have gotten the ST60 without a coating, that's what I would have no doubt bought.

Thanks, I appreciate your perspective. I'm afraid I also will be bothered by any sort of coating on the screen, so I think I'm now leaning back towards the 60S60. Maybe I'll buy it for the bedroom and use it for a while and see how I like it. Then I will be in a better position to decide which series to get for the family room.

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post #4503 of 7187 Old 10-10-2013, 11:21 PM
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Can someone tell me how the S60 is in a bright room. I think I awnt the s60 based on the low input lag and good cost and I'm really not all that big of a TV guy to notice/appreicate the difference in the st60 but i'm worried about reflections mostly. I know everyones case is different but let me try and explain mine, 12x10 living room in a condo. if sitting and looking at the tv, the wall to my left has a rather large 7 foot tall by 6 foot wide window. No lights in the room from above or anything. The window has a roll down blind that allows you to see out of it in the day time fairly well while not letting people look in from the outside, so almost like a two way mirror idea. And even though you can see out it fairly well in the day and it lets in light, it doesn't let in sunbeams, if that makes sense. There is also a fairly big window on the wall that the couch sits against, so opposite the tv but it's also about 6 feet to the RIGHT of the couch and has the same blinds. Anyways, how would the s60 fair in my room?
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post #4504 of 7187 Old 10-11-2013, 01:03 AM
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Is line bleeding normal? It's very severe when browsing the web. I also notice some colors are off, all text looked blue until I turned down the saturation in my catalyst control center. But then links look almost black.

I also taped a blanket behind the set to reduce the noise... it helped a bit, lol. Will it catch fire?

Also getting a lot of image retention from normal use... running slideshows now.
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post #4505 of 7187 Old 10-11-2013, 01:11 AM
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Originally Posted by CanonFo View Post

Is line bleeding normal? It's very severe when browsing the web. I also notice some colors are off, all text looked blue until I turned down the saturation in my catalyst control center. But then links look almost black.

Line bleed: Normal. You should resist making changes to things like saturation in your video card settings. Try to adjust TV settings instead.
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I also taped a blanket behind the set to reduce the noise... it helped a bit, lol. Will it catch fire?

If you taped it the back of the actual TV: Worst. Idea. Ever.
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Also getting a lot of image retention from normal use... running slideshows now.

Also pretty typical, unfortunately. Hopefully it will fade fast.
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post #4506 of 7187 Old 10-11-2013, 02:12 AM
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If you taped it the back of the actual TV: Worst. Idea. Ever.
lol Agreed

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post #4507 of 7187 Old 10-11-2013, 02:54 AM
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Originally Posted by mtrot View Post

Thanks for that comparison! Yeah, I read that thread, but I still find myself seeking more input and experiences.
Well, that is the question. I'm not sure what, if any, effect the A/R coating might have on image clarity, and I don't think the Best Buy here even has the ST60 on display. I have owned the Toshiba 50" as well as a Panasonic 42" plasma, neither of which has a coating. It seems to me that such a coating would, at least to some effect, diminish the clarity of the image. But, if not, I may go with the ST60 because of the better image dynamics.

Pay no attention to Rwetmore he has an unhealthy delusion/bias about AR filters. He keeps repeating "worse image" and "decreased clarity" yet has absolutely no proof to back this up. In addition ALL HIGH END PLASMA TV'S HAVE A/R filters.

Here is my review of the s64 and st60

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1490539/heads-up-comparison-65-s64-vs-60-st60-ask-me-questions

Go with the ST60 if you can afford it. I absolutely love it.
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post #4508 of 7187 Old 10-11-2013, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

I've compared the S60 to the ST60 at a bright store and also at a dim store. The ST60 has a better panel, it is brighter, blacker, has better contrast, and has more pop. The only real reason to choose an S60 over an ST60 is to save money, but you end up with a lesser TV.

Shennaniganz(?) created a thread comparing the ST60 to the S64 (AR version of the S60) and it's usually floating around the first or second page of this forum.

Gaming, gaming, a thousand times gaming. Also, using it as a PC monitor. The ST60 is useless at these, and is a huge sales point in favor of the s60 for many people.

No matter how good the picture is, I would never purchase a set I cannot use for these purposes, and a lot of people are the same.

I had a set with 70ms of latency for a couple weeks, and gaming on it was terrible. Drove me crazy.

If only the st60 would allow you to turn off enough processing to get it's latency down to the 30-40ms range. Then it would no question be the superior set.
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post #4509 of 7187 Old 10-11-2013, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by shenaniganz08 View Post

Pay no attention to Rwetmore he has an unhealthy delusion/bias about AR filters. He keeps repeating "worse image" and "decreased clarity" yet has absolutely no proof to back this up.

I admit I seem to have a hyper sensitivity to it. None the less I'm pretty sure its there to some degree.
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Here is my review of the s64 and st60

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1490539/heads-up-comparison-65-s64-vs-60-st60-ask-me-questions

Go with the ST60 if you can afford it. I absolutely love it.

I agree with your assessment, BTW. As I said, if I could get the ST60 without the A/R coating, I would prefer it over the S60.
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post #4510 of 7187 Old 10-11-2013, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by CanonFo View Post

Is line bleeding normal? It's very severe when browsing the web. I also notice some colors are off, all text looked blue until I turned down the saturation in my catalyst control center. But then links look almost black.

I also taped a blanket behind the set to reduce the noise... it helped a bit, lol. Will it catch fire?

Also getting a lot of image retention from normal use... running slideshows now.

Line bleeding is normal. I notice it a lot. In fact, if there is one reason I would consider getting rid of my plasma it is because of this. Personally, I wouldn't recommend using a plasma as a PC monitor. You're just asking for IR and burn-in. Get an LCD if using your TV for a PC monitor is your aim.
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post #4511 of 7187 Old 10-11-2013, 07:21 AM
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I'm just the opposite regarding the AR filter. My first plasma had no AR filter and the reflections bothered me constantly. I haven't seen the ST60 next to an S60 to compare, but even if the AR filter does make the image a bit darker, without it the reflections are so obvious I cannot ignore them. The AR filter on my S64 does a good job of diminishing the reflections and the picture is bright enough to overcome the light in my environment, which includes one off-angle window, two windows opposite the TV, and a patio door off angle as well. But you have to decide for yourself what is preferable to you. If you can find the models side-by-side in store, that should help you make the correct decision. And find a store with a good return policy so you can take it back if needed.
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post #4512 of 7187 Old 10-11-2013, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mtrot View Post

Thanks, I appreciate your perspective. I'm afraid I also will be bothered by any sort of coating on the screen, so I think I'm now leaning back towards the 60S60. Maybe I'll buy it for the bedroom and use it for a while and see how I like it. Then I will be in a better position to decide which series to get for the family room.

Just keep in mind that ALL of the highest rated flat panel TVs of all time all have an Anti-Reflective Coating on the outer screen and it hasn't hurt their performance in the least. That would include the Samsung F8500 (which won the big VE HDTV Shootout earlier this year), the Panny ZT60, VT60, and ST60, and also last year's "King of the HDTVs" Panny VT50, with runner-ups GT50 and ST50, and in the years before that pretty much every high end Panasonic, Samsung, and Pioneer Plasma. Never has a non-coated Plasma been rated or reviewed higher than the ones with coatings.

At that VE HDTV Shootout, the three top calibrators were specifically asked if the AR Coating detracts from the image quality and they all said and i quote: "It's a myth".
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post #4513 of 7187 Old 10-11-2013, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

Never has a non-coated Plasma been rated or reviewed higher than the ones with coatings.

That's because only the low end models don't have coatings. An A/R coating's potential take away from PQ is only if all things are equal, which they are not for high end vs. low end models.

Quote:
At that VE HDTV Shootout, the three top calibrators were specifically asked if the AR Coating detracts from the image quality and they all said and i quote: "It's a myth".

I think they're wrong if the viewing environment is in the dark or in very dim lighting. In the dark for sure. The bottom line is it's a trade off. In a dark room, some fidelity and transparency is definitely lost due to the A/R filter, where as when a good amount ambient light is present, more fidelity and transparency is lost due to reflection.
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post #4514 of 7187 Old 10-11-2013, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

Color banding is usually due to compression, not the TV. You can reduce it by calibrating your set properly.

If you see it on Blu-Ray, we have a problem Houston. biggrin.gif



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I see it at times on BD movies and on a continuous grayscale ramp test pattern or the like.


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post #4515 of 7187 Old 10-11-2013, 08:42 AM
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When I hear you mention fidelity I associate that with picture accuracy thru calibration, you would need to produce a calibration chart that shows that colors are less accurate with an ar coating for example. I don't doubt there is a perception difference to some but whether that detracts from the picture from a calibration standpoint is debatable.

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post #4516 of 7187 Old 10-11-2013, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by xenon9887 View Post

Gaming, gaming, a thousand times gaming. Also, using it as a PC monitor. The ST60 is useless at these, and is a huge sales point in favor of the s60 for many people.

No matter how good the picture is, I would never purchase a set I cannot use for these purposes, and a lot of people are the same.

I had a set with 70ms of latency for a couple weeks, and gaming on it was terrible. Drove me crazy.

If only the st60 would allow you to turn off enough processing to get it's latency down to the 30-40ms range. Then it would no question be the superior set.

How does one know if they are sensitive to input lag or not? I play a ton of PS3 and Xbox 360 shooters and some racing sims, but mainly single-player (not online or split-screen). I didn't get the ST60 mainly because of cost but at the back of my mind, input lag was a concern based on CNET's reviews of the S60 and ST60. Also, the CNET review made it sound like the two had black levels almost the same, which might be accurate since most people talking about the S60 here don't have meters/software capable of measuring MLL accurately on these sets. I have seen the S64 vs ST60 comparison thread, but it has no measurements (only screenshots) and subjective evaluations and I'm not sure both sets were calibrated to match each other in light output and color, which is what CNET does in any review/comparison to level the playing ground (the calibrators in the VE shootout did the same).

I think the main reason there is less objective info/actual measurements on the S60 vs. the ST60 is that most people who invest in professional calibrations or meters/software tend to get higher end sets like the ST/VT/ZT series (especially the latter two).
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post #4517 of 7187 Old 10-11-2013, 09:04 AM
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Doesn't the addition of the AR filter lower the blacks on the ST60 ? That aocounts for the difference in MLL on the ST60 vs VT60 vs ZT60.

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post #4518 of 7187 Old 10-11-2013, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by 04rex View Post

Hey guys, deciding between this and the ST60. How bad is the reflection on these units? Is it really that bad where paying an extra $300-$400 is worth it?

I don't know the answer to your question as I have only seen an S64. It has A/R coating like the ST60, so if 50" or 65" is the size you want, you could get one of those.
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post #4519 of 7187 Old 10-11-2013, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I see it at times on BD movies and on a continuous grayscale ramp test pattern or the like.


I have an old C2 and it was barely noticeable on a grayscale test pattern when I calibrated my TV. It's very rare for me to see it on a quality BD. If I saw it regularly on a BD and it was fairly noticeable, that wouldn't be acceptable to me.



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post #4520 of 7187 Old 10-11-2013, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

Doesn't the addition of the AR filter lower the blacks on the ST60 ? That aocounts for the difference in MLL on the ST60 vs VT60 vs ZT60.

I think you mean the black filter (infinite black pro on the ST60 vs. infinite black on the S60/S64). However, that will make only a tiny difference, about 0.0005 fL or so. The AR filter could help when ambient light is present but in a dark room it should have no impact.


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post #4521 of 7187 Old 10-11-2013, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post

When I hear you mention fidelity I associate that with picture accuracy thru calibration, you would need to produce a calibration chart that shows that colors are less accurate with an ar coating for example. I don't doubt there is a perception difference to some but whether that detracts from the picture from a calibration standpoint is debatable.

No, I'm not talking about loss of color fidelity, which doesn't seem to be affected by an A/R filter. I'm mainly referring to clarity, transparency and the overall depth of the image. To me, with an A/R coating the image has a little less depth and looks a little flatter. It's not a night and day difference. Definitely subtle (i.e. on the order of 5-10% or so), but it's definitely visibly there to some degree.
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post #4522 of 7187 Old 10-11-2013, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

I have an old C2 and it was barely noticeable on a grayscale test pattern when I calibrated my TV. It's very rare for me to see it on a quality BD. If I saw it regularly on a BD and it was fairly noticeable, that wouldn't be acceptable to me.



Ian

Is the C2 a plasma TV or a colorimeter? Do you have a S60? I can easily see it on the test pattern but only at times on actual program material. I imagine all S60s are like this.


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post #4523 of 7187 Old 10-11-2013, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by curly21029 View Post

A question for S60/S64 owners: (65" models in particular; please state your panel size if you respond) do you have any vertical lines/banding a few inches from the right side of your screen? I have two. They appear infrequently, (light to moderately light, solidly-colored backgrounds... think the closing scenes of commercials) but I've noticed them after the first week and do find my eyes drifting to that area during content that I think it may appear on. I've tried to ignore them, but have done so actively rather than passively meaning that they are at least somewhat irksome. They're reproducible on all white/gray/green slides.

No banding on my 65" ST64, not even using the all white/gray slides. There were uniformity issues at the beginning, but they were more like clouds of darker areas and they were located everywhere on the screen, not just one area. They disappeared after the first day.

I also had a 50" ST64 briefly and that did not have banding.
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post #4524 of 7187 Old 10-11-2013, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by svt2nv View Post

Can someone tell me how the S60 is in a bright room. I think I awnt the s60 based on the low input lag and good cost and I'm really not all that big of a TV guy to notice/appreicate the difference in the st60 but i'm worried about reflections mostly. I know everyones case is different but let me try and explain mine, 12x10 living room in a condo. if sitting and looking at the tv, the wall to my left has a rather large 7 foot tall by 6 foot wide window. No lights in the room from above or anything. The window has a roll down blind that allows you to see out of it in the day time fairly well while not letting people look in from the outside, so almost like a two way mirror idea. And even though you can see out it fairly well in the day and it lets in light, it doesn't let in sunbeams, if that makes sense. There is also a fairly big window on the wall that the couch sits against, so opposite the tv but it's also about 6 feet to the RIGHT of the couch and has the same blinds. Anyways, how would the s60 fair in my room?
The reflections are pretty noticeable. My 65S60 sits in a cubby in the wall about 6" back from wall level, in a 22'x16' room. It's on one of the long walls, centered. Opposite the TV is a 8'x6.5' opening into an office area that has a skylight and windows on one side. The windows don't get direct sun, there is a deck and trees outside it. So it's a pretty dark room for the TV, and I can still see reflections from the office area during the day. It's not that bad, and I mostly watch at night, but it's definitely a factor
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post #4525 of 7187 Old 10-11-2013, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

No, I'm not talking about loss of color fidelity, which doesn't seem to be affected by an A/R filter. I'm mainly referring to clarity, transparency and the overall depth of the image. To me, with an A/R coating the image has a little less depth and looks a little flatter. It's not a night and day difference. Definitely subtle (i.e. on the order of 5-10% or so), but it's definitely visibly there to some degree.

Do you have your TV on the floor or on a very low stand? If so, try to sit on the floor so that the center of the screen is at eye level or above and check if you still notice the loss of clarity.
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post #4526 of 7187 Old 10-11-2013, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

How does one know if they are sensitive to input lag or not? I play a ton of PS3 and Xbox 360 shooters and some racing sims, but mainly single-player (not online or split-screen). I didn't get the ST60 mainly because of cost but at the back of my mind, input lag was a concern based on CNET's reviews of the S60 and ST60. Also, the CNET review made it sound like the two had black levels almost the same, which might be accurate since most people talking about the S60 here don't have meters/software capable of measuring MLL accurately on these sets. I have seen the S64 vs ST60 comparison thread, but it has no measurements (only screenshots) and subjective evaluations and I'm not sure both sets were calibrated to match each other in light output and color, which is what CNET does in any review/comparison to level the playing ground (the calibrators in the VE shootout did the same).

I think the main reason there is less objective info/actual measurements on the S60 vs. the ST60 is that most people who invest in professional calibrations or meters/software tend to get higher end sets like the ST/VT/ZT series (especially the latter two).

IT really depends on the game. Console shooters tend to run a low frame rates compared to PC games, and in order to keep tearing to a minimum they use triple buffering, this introduces some latency on it's own. If you have ever played uncharted 2 or 3, you will be familiar with control delay.

Some games its not really noticeable, bioshock infinite for example. But in battlefield 3 it makes it (for me at least) almost unplayable. When using it as a PC monitor, it is just awful. Normally when you move the mouse, it has a 1:1 feeling to it. You move your hand and the cursor moves at the same rate. With the larger delay though, you can feel the cursor lagging behind. Its just awful.

As for black levels. I hear they certainly measure lower on the ST series. But how low do you really need them? At night, a fully black screen is just the tiniest bit lighter black than the black bezzel on my s60, something I have to look specifically for. And as soon as you get anything brighter in that scene, that blows out the blacks anyway and you can't tell the difference. It's a number for people to get their jollys off on.

They also say that the set is brighter, which is certainly important for many people. And obviously more accurate colours, and the ability to display more shades of colour are great too. It is no question a better set for movies and TV, but at the s60/64 price point.... I dont see the need haha.

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post #4527 of 7187 Old 10-11-2013, 09:51 AM
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I think you mean the black filter (infinite black pro on the ST60 vs. infinite black on the S60/S64). However, that will make only a tiny difference, about 0.0005 fL or so. The AR filter could help when ambient light is present but in a dark room it should have no impact.
Yes I meant the black filter

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post #4528 of 7187 Old 10-11-2013, 10:38 AM
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Is the C2 a plasma TV or a colorimeter? Do you have a S60? I can easily see it on the test pattern but only at times on actual program material. I imagine all S60s are like this.


2010 PDP. Based on the color gamut tests I have seen you would think the S60 would do well in this category


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2010 PDP. Based on the color gamut tests I have seen you would think the S60 would do well in this category


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perhaps I need to do some luminance and saturation sweeps... though I think this is really more grayscale (color, not gamma) related

21-pt grayscale (5% increments) measures fine though, so the color banding on the grayscale ramp is occurring somewhere between those 21 points







these pictures are a bit crappy since my phone only has a 2.0 megapixel camera, but this pattern is from Spears & Munsil HD Benchmark 2nd Edition (BD) and there is actually a lot more color banding present on this pattern than the pictures show


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post #4530 of 7187 Old 10-11-2013, 11:56 AM
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IT really depends on the game. Console shooters tend to run a low frame rates compared to PC games, and in order to keep tearing to a minimum they use triple buffering, this introduces some latency on it's own. If you have ever played uncharted 2 or 3, you will be familiar with control delay.

Some games its not really noticeable, bioshock infinite for example. But in battlefield 3 it makes it (for me at least) almost unplayable. When using it as a PC monitor, it is just awful. Normally when you move the mouse, it has a 1:1 feeling to it. You move your hand and the cursor moves at the same rate. With the larger delay though, you can feel the cursor lagging behind. Its just awful.

As for black levels. I hear they certainly measure lower on the ST series. But how low do you really need them? At night, a fully black screen is just the tiniest bit lighter black than the black bezzel on my s60, something I have to look specifically for. And as soon as you get anything brighter in that scene, that blows out the blacks anyway and you can't tell the difference. It's a number for people to get their jollys off on.

They also say that the set is brighter, which is certainly important for many people. And obviously more accurate colours, and the ability to display more shades of colour are great too. It is no question a better set for movies and TV, but at the s60/64 price point.... I dont see the need haha.

You can waste your money on a Bugatti Veyron, or still go dang fast is a Nissan GT-R, and get a full back seat and trunk while your at it for 1/20th the cost smile.gif

I play stuff like Uncharted and Bioshock. I also play stuff like Call of Duty, Crysis, Halo, Hitman, Gears of War, Splinter Cell, Killzone, Forza Motorsport/Horizon etc. All console stuff, no PC games. I don't use it as a PC monitor either.

Regarding black levels, I'm still curious what the difference in black levels is in terms of actual measurements. The reason for this being that I was under the impression the two are more alike than different in this aspect when reading the CNET reviews and looking at the actual numbers (0.004 fL for the S60 and 0.00373 fL for the ST60). I am okay with this minuscule difference but if it's really more like 0.004 fL for the S60 and 0.002 fL for the ST60 that would bother me. However, I've read the blacks can drop on these sets around the 250-350 hour mark and that the difference in MLL between the two series is 0.0005 fL or less since the black filter is slightly darker on the ST60 versus the S60.

To sum it up, if the blacks are 0.002 fL better on the ST60 vs. the S60 it bothers me. If the difference is 0.0005 fL or less like the CNET review states and D-Nice mentioned somewhere in this forum, I could care less. For the record, I measured my S60 at 0.004 fL during grayscale runs (due to IR) and at 0.003 fL after running the screen wipe long enough to eliminate any visible IR. Also, my set doesn't even have 100 hours on it yet.


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