Official Panasonic S60 Series Discussion Thread - Page 172 - AVS Forum
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post #5131 of 7070 Old 11-12-2013, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by jontyrees View Post

I think you're attributing much greater capabilities to the AR filter than is realistic for a simple coating on the surface of the glass. It's not active, it just prevents direct reflections - the only way it can do this is to send light coming into the surface off in different directions. It spreads the reflection. If you don't have a viewing angle that allows you to see a reflected light source on a very shiny glass surface, it's just not a problem on the S60 series. I will readily agree that you can see clear reflections on the 60 series if there's something light at that viewing angle, but it's not a "washed out" issue - it's a distracting reflection.

You and I will just have to agree to disagree on this. If you've followed plasmas at all over the years you know what I mean. Yes, the AR filter minimizes reflections. It doesn't "spread out" the light source. It isn't magic, so stop patronizing me. Have you even seen these TVs? If you look at the panel with absolutely no content being displayed you can clearly see the difference in those with AR and those without. The S64 dims the reflections. If you look you'll still see them, they're just not as pronounced. Panasonic's site has information on it and you can look it up. I'm not going through the trouble. And even CNET clearly states the issues with the S60 not having the AR filter in their review.
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Bright lighting: This is the S60's Achilles' heel. When I turned up the lights the image on the S60 washed out significantly, looking a good deal worse than that of any other TV in the lineup -- with the exception of the U50 and Samsung E550, which were about the same. The difference was most visible in darker scenes, where "black" and shadowy areas became grayish and lost most of the punch and impact I described above.

In addition, reflections in the screen, like my face and striped shirt as I sat on the couch in front of the TV, showed up more strongly than on any of the others, including both ST models (again the U50 and Samsung were exceptions).

You'll notice they describe the "washed out" picture and the reflections separately. They're two different things. The S60 is a good TV, but I personally would never buy one because it, like the plasmas I had before, don't have an AR filter and I've seen first-hand with the S64 what a difference it makes. The S64 has the same panel as the S60, so the difference-maker is the AR filter between the two sets.
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post #5132 of 7070 Old 11-12-2013, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Artrigis View Post

Hey I read somewhere on this forum that most panels are different,
Yes there is variation from panel to panel.
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so its not accurate and worthwhile to copy the individual color details,
Some people have come to that conclusion but it's not valid as a general rule. The only way you can find out if your individual set can be improved with someone else's settings it to try them and decide for yourself.
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and that your better off leaving them at default 0. Is that true?
See above. smile.gif

You can also get one of the recommended calibration disks and do minor adjustments yourself.
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post #5133 of 7070 Old 11-12-2013, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by ToonMasterTim View Post

You and I will just have to agree to disagree on this. If you've followed plasmas at all over the years you know what I mean. Yes, the AR filter minimizes reflections. It doesn't "spread out" the light source. It isn't magic, so stop patronizing me. Have you even seen these TVs? If you look at the panel with absolutely no content being displayed you can clearly see the difference in those with AR and those without. The S64 dims the reflections. If you look you'll still see them, they're just not as pronounced. Panasonic's site has information on it and you can look it up. I'm not going through the trouble. And even CNET clearly states the issues with the S60 not having the AR filter in their review.
You'll notice they describe the "washed out" picture and the reflections separately. They're two different things. The S60 is a good TV, but I personally would never buy one because it, like the plasmas I had before, don't have an AR filter and I've seen first-hand with the S64 what a difference it makes. The S64 has the same panel as the S60, so the difference-maker is the AR filter between the two sets.

I don't know why you think I'm being patronizing - in fact the point I was making is that the AR filter isn't magic - all it can do is break up the surface of the glass in a specific way, so as to cause light reflecting off it to be refracted. So yes, it does "spread out" the reflection - you will now get light reflected to your eye from a wider patch of the surface than you would have with a totally smooth surface. This makes the reflection less noticeable - it's no longer a clear image. The clear image can certainly be a problem. I've had plasmas since 2007, and I have an S60.
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post #5134 of 7070 Old 11-12-2013, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by JRonnie7 View Post

Needless to say, the VT60 is an awesome set. The main reasons I returned the set - fan noise (after the fix), buzzing, aggressive filter that improved black levels but hindered brightness level. I thought about exchanging it, but then thought...why not give the S64 a try for a lot less money since I'm not using most of the bells and whistles on the VT60 anyway? After buying the S64, it's evident that the VT60 has a better panel (better contrast with deeper black levels, motion handling is better, and the picture is more crisp with less imperfections even up close).There is still buzzing on my S64; however, it may be more pronounced since there is no fan noise. The S64 also seems to put out a lot less heat. I do notice banding on the S64 that wasn't on the VT60, but it's mainly with menu fields, etc. With that said, my personal opinion is that the S64 is about 80% what the VT60 is as far as picture quality. I'm very satisified with my purchase of the S64 and highly recommend (if you can still get it) to anyone who doesn't need the best of the best and wants an excellent picture for the price!

That is quite impressive to hear from a former VT60 owner, since the price difference is huge between the two, especially at the 65" size.
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post #5135 of 7070 Old 11-12-2013, 11:50 AM
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Is there a way to check in-store availability of the S64 at CostCo without calling or visiting the store? Is there a way to check online?
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post #5136 of 7070 Old 11-12-2013, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Artrigis View Post

Hey I read somewhere on this forum that most panels are different, so its not accurate and worthwhile to copy the individual color details, and that your better off leaving them at default 0. Is that true?

I'm glad someone brought this up. Every TV has it's own unique variances and plugging in someone elses calibrations isn't really the same as having YOUR set calibrated for it's individual variances from the factory. Everyone has a different situation for each room as well. (light/reflections/hue/ etc)

Then, there's the factor of individual "taste" on how it looks to each person. So it's really a subjective value.
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post #5137 of 7070 Old 11-12-2013, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Pluvious View Post

I'm glad someone brought this up. Every TV has it's own unique variances and plugging in someone elses calibrations isn't really the same as having YOUR set calibrated for it's individual variances from the factory. Everyone has a different situation for each room as well. (light/reflections/hue/ etc)

Then, there's the factor of individual "taste" on how it looks to each person. So it's really a subjective value.

this is true, which is why copying advanced picture settings is not the best idea

what the posted settings by those with meters/calibration software should be used for is to get a general idea of where the basics should be set: stuff like picture mode, panel brightness, contrast/brightness, sharpness, and white balance/gamma/color gamut presets

so, based on this if one was to look at my posted settings:

--Picture menu
Picture mode: Cinema
Contrast: 85
Brightness: +1
Color: 46
Tint: +2
Sharpness: 0
Color temp: Warm 2
Vivid Color: Off
C.A.T.S.: Off
Video NR: Off
MPEG NR: Off

-- Pro settings submenu
Panel brightness: Mid
AGC: 0
Black extension: 0
Color Gamut: Normal

Gamma detail adjustment menu:
Gamma: 2.4


these elements would be useful to get other 50" S60's in the ballpark... some settings like brightness/contrast and color/tint would still need to be tweaked using visual test patterns on a calibration BD for best results
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post #5138 of 7070 Old 11-12-2013, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

Setting your BD player to it's default, which is usually 60hz, wiil allow the player to do the 2:3 pulldown rather then the S60, which has problems processing it properly. As far as streaming is concerned, what service are you experiencing judder? If you have a player that also has a 24p native option for streaming, like some of the newer Panny's, make sure it's off. The TV's 3:2 pulldown mode should be set to on or auto, however it only operates with an interlaced 480i input from DVD's. Broadcasts are in 60hz so there should be no issues with the sets processing.


Ian

Thanks. I'm streaming from Amazon Prime in HD.

So let me ask the question this way. Setting aside differences for motion handling for 24p material, is there a difference between how Plasmas in the Panny line handle motion? Or even say Panny vs the Samsung 5300 I'm considering? Everyone talks about motion handling, but usually they are referring to proper 24p handling, so I don't know if there are major differences for other sources as well. I know my friends LED looks horrible in this regard, but I thought all Plasmas it was a non-issue for non-BluRay material.

I directly compared my old CRT that's sitting on the floor last night. I found TinTin on demand and put it on the CRT that's still hooked up to cable and queued up Amazon Prime and A/B'd them. The CRT is definitely smoother, but I don't know if what I'm reacting to is truly poor motion handling or just me being not used to a larger sized tv. I'm pretty distracted by it and hope I adjust. I guess how I'd describe it is how when you see the Judder on scrolling credits on the Plasma...that since that's there there also must be the same bit if Judder also in everything else during the movie, no?
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post #5139 of 7070 Old 11-12-2013, 02:43 PM
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Well i took back the s60 today and got the VIZIO M501d-A2R well its a terrible tv and will be taking it back tomorrow.... Does anyone know what its called when u can like see the pixels when your watching something and they look like lines on the tv sorry thats the best description i could come up with. But thats wat the VIZIO looked like and i hated it the funny thing is my old 2009 Toshiba REGZA 46SV670U looked 10 times better than that tv. So i give up on trying to find a good tv im losing my mind. I will take this back to bestbuy tommorrow and will be looking at my local stereoshop for a tv instead. Im so tired of looking at TVS in the store that arent calibrated and trying to pick the best looking on out of the bunch and im done reading reviews cause they keep pointing me twords the worst tvs. So im totally confused on how to buy a tv cause im having terrible luck.mad.gif
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post #5140 of 7070 Old 11-12-2013, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by aman74 View Post

Thanks. I'm streaming from Amazon Prime in HD.

So let me ask the question this way. Setting aside differences for motion handling for 24p material, is there a difference between how Plasmas in the Panny line handle motion? Or even say Panny vs the Samsung 5300 I'm considering? Everyone talks about motion handling, but usually they are referring to proper 24p handling, so I don't know if there are major differences for other sources as well. I know my friends LED looks horrible in this regard, but I thought all Plasmas it was a non-issue for non-BluRay material.

I directly compared my old CRT that's sitting on the floor last night. I found TinTin on demand and put it on the CRT that's still hooked up to cable and queued up Amazon Prime and A/B'd them. The CRT is definitely smoother, but I don't know if what I'm reacting to is truly poor motion handling or just me being not used to a larger sized tv. I'm pretty distracted by it and hope I adjust. I guess how I'd describe it is how when you see the Judder on scrolling credits on the Plasma...that since that's there there also must be the same bit if Judder also in everything else during the movie, no?


There should be no problem with motion handling on the S60. You are talking about two different things. Judder occurs during pans or credit scrolling on BD's and in some cases 24p streams. What are you using to stream? If it's the TV, you might want to consider getting a separate device like a Roku, or Apple TV. They are pretty cheap, are updated regularly, have tons of channels, and output all content to 60hz faithfully.


Ian
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post #5141 of 7070 Old 11-12-2013, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

There should be no problem with motion handling on the S60. You are talking about two different things. Judder occurs during pans or credit scrolling on BD's and in some cases 24p streams. What are you using to stream? If it's the TV, you might want to consider getting a separate device like a Roku, or Apple TV. They are pretty cheap, are updated regularly, have tons of channels, and output all content to 60hz faithfully.


Ian

How is that different though? I'm talking about motion during camera movements.

As I mentioned I'm talking about Amazon Prime Streaming in HD.

How would the Roku help? You're saying it may be an issue with the streaming quality of the TV?

I do know that the S60 fails the 24p test, so I thought maybe there is an issue with non 24p content. I don't know if streams are considered 24p, you mention that they are? Obviously most were shot in film, so are 24p, but do they stream that way?

Also, doing the black bar test, dithering doesn't minimize substantially until -18 on the settings. Anyone have experience with this?
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post #5142 of 7070 Old 11-12-2013, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Ben Thompson View Post

Well i took back the s60 today and got the VIZIO M501d-A2R well its a terrible tv and will be taking it back tomorrow.... Does anyone know what its called when u can like see the pixels when your watching something and they look like lines on the tv sorry thats the best description i could come up with. But thats wat the VIZIO looked like and i hated it the funny thing is my old 2009 Toshiba REGZA 46SV670U looked 10 times better than that tv. So i give up on trying to find a good tv im losing my mind. I will take this back to bestbuy tommorrow and will be looking at my local stereoshop for a tv instead. Im so tired of looking at TVS in the store that arent calibrated and trying to pick the best looking on out of the bunch and im done reading reviews cause they keep pointing me twords the worst tvs. So im totally confused on how to buy a tv cause im having terrible luck.mad.gif

Well, you're scaring me now. I am returning my 60S60 because of the dim picture and aggressive ABL, and was thinking of trying the Panasonic TC-L58E60 LED TV. It has pretty good reviews at Amazon, but most of those people are nowhere near as critical viewers as we here on AVS are. Maybe the Panasonic is superior to the Vizio, but Vizio M Series has pretty good reviews as well.

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post #5143 of 7070 Old 11-12-2013, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Ben Thompson View Post

Well i took back the s60 today and got the VIZIO M501d-A2R well its a terrible tv and will be taking it back tomorrow.... Does anyone know what its called when u can like see the pixels when your watching something and they look like lines on the tv sorry thats the best description i could come up with. But thats wat the VIZIO looked like and i hated it the funny thing is my old 2009 Toshiba REGZA 46SV670U looked 10 times better than that tv. So i give up on trying to find a good tv im losing my mind. I will take this back to bestbuy tommorrow and will be looking at my local stereoshop for a tv instead. Im so tired of looking at TVS in the store that arent calibrated and trying to pick the best looking on out of the bunch and im done reading reviews cause they keep pointing me twords the worst tvs. So im totally confused on how to buy a tv cause im having terrible luck.mad.gif

Ouch, the Vizio was a consideration for me on the LED side.

How reflective was it compared to the S60?
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post #5144 of 7070 Old 11-12-2013, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Ben Thompson View Post

Well i took back the s60 today and got the VIZIO M501d-A2R well its a terrible tv and will be taking it back tomorrow.... Does anyone know what its called when u can like see the pixels when your watching something and they look like lines on the tv sorry thats the best description i could come up with. But thats wat the VIZIO looked like and i hated it the funny thing is my old 2009 Toshiba REGZA 46SV670U looked 10 times better than that tv. So i give up on trying to find a good tv im losing my mind. I will take this back to bestbuy tommorrow and will be looking at my local stereoshop for a tv instead. Im so tired of looking at TVS in the store that arent calibrated and trying to pick the best looking on out of the bunch and im done reading reviews cause they keep pointing me twords the worst tvs. So im totally confused on how to buy a tv cause im having terrible luck.mad.gif

screen door effect? I'm pretty sure this means that you are sitting too close compared to the screen size / your vision. The funny thing is I went to see Ender's Game in the theaters recently and noticed this effect for the first time (I very rarely go see movies in theaters)
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post #5145 of 7070 Old 11-12-2013, 03:54 PM
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It wasnt the reflection that bothered me i so i really cant say cause my room is mainly dark but what bothered me was that since it is an edge lit led tv when you put it in games mode which seems to turn off most of the features you can clearly see the corners are way brighter than the rest of the screen it also happened on other modes just t nowhere near as bad on game mode. I don't know how to describe the main problem i had with it it was odd so ill try my best theres probably a technical term for it but i don't know it. So i sit roughly 7 feet away from my tv and could see like these weird lines uniformly across the whole screen (maybe the pixels?)which seemed very odd to me it was more noticeable on white backgrounds than anything else. Pluscolors didn't seem very good even after i tried using my wow disk for like an hour. I did think the tv looked quite a bit better the farther you sit away but since i sit so close it was a no go, besides why would i buy a big tv just so i can sit farther away.
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I picked up one of these at Best Buy over the weekend for $550 and I am in love. 

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post #5147 of 7070 Old 11-12-2013, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Ben Thompson View Post

It wasnt the reflection that bothered me i so i really cant say cause my room is mainly dark but what bothered me was that since it is an edge lit led tv when you put it in games mode which seems to turn off most of the features you can clearly see the corners are way brighter than the rest of the screen it also happened on other modes just t nowhere near as bad on game mode. I don't know how to describe the main problem i had with it it was odd so ill try my best theres probably a technical term for it but i don't know it. So i sit roughly 7 feet away from my tv and could see like these weird lines uniformly across the whole screen (maybe the pixels?)which seemed very odd to me it was more noticeable on white backgrounds than anything else. Pluscolors didn't seem very good even after i tried using my wow disk for like an hour. I did think the tv looked quite a bit better the farther you sit away but since i sit so close it was a no go, besides why would i buy a big tv just so i can sit farther away.
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Have you tried the cnet settings?


Have you tried the cnet settings?
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post #5148 of 7070 Old 11-12-2013, 04:12 PM
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Yea i did try the cnet settings s actually and didnt seem any better or worse actually....so im wondering why i never had the screen door effect on any tv but that one ive always sat the same distance away from my tvs and never had that problem before and i put the VIZIO back in the box and d put my Toshiba REGZA 46SV670U back up and dont have that effect. It is a 46 and not a 50 but that shouldn't make that big of difference right?
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post #5149 of 7070 Old 11-12-2013, 04:46 PM
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I picked up one of these at Best Buy over the weekend for $550 and I am in love. 

 

The 50"?

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post #5150 of 7070 Old 11-12-2013, 04:53 PM
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Well i took back the s60 today and got the VIZIO M501d-A2R well its a terrible tv and will be taking it back tomorrow.... Does anyone know what its called when u can like see the pixels when your watching something and they look like lines on the tv sorry thats the best description i could come up with. But thats wat the VIZIO looked like and i hated it the funny thing is my old 2009 Toshiba REGZA 46SV670U looked 10 times better than that tv. So i give up on trying to find a good tv im losing my mind. I will take this back to bestbuy tommorrow and will be looking at my local stereoshop for a tv instead. Im so tired of looking at TVS in the store that arent calibrated and trying to pick the best looking on out of the bunch and im done reading reviews cause they keep pointing me twords the worst tvs. So im totally confused on how to buy a tv cause im having terrible luck.mad.gif

This is why the s60 comes so recommended, it has bar far the best picture for the price. So the image is a bit dim, does this really matter that much? Go to a theatre and watch a movie and you'll see the same thing. Content is just not meant to be as bright as many people prefer their home sets to be.

I was in the exact same position until I bought the s60, and while I wasn't a huge fan of its lower max brightness and ABL, I got used to it. I don't notice it anymore, but what I do notice is how awesome the tv looks 95% of the time.

Unless you want to spend a lot more money, this is the cream of the crop right now.

All the best.
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post #5151 of 7070 Old 11-12-2013, 04:59 PM
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Yeah to me the dimness is a big deal because i game alot like 85% of the time i have the tv on and they dont look right when theyre dim, in fact i am buying a tv for the sole purpose of gaming on my new xbox one in about 2 weeks. But for cable and movie watching it was amazing and if that was all i did i would most certinally have kept it.
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I picked up one of these at Best Buy over the weekend for $550 and I am in love. 

Open box or ...?
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Open box or ...?

Yeah, display model, Geek Squad calibrated it and everything. 

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post #5154 of 7070 Old 11-12-2013, 05:18 PM
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WTH?!

 

Last week the 60" S60 was on sale at Best Buy for $998.99.

 

Now, this week it is on sale for $1149.99!!!

 

Dang!!!

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post #5155 of 7070 Old 11-12-2013, 05:22 PM
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WTH?!

Last week the 60" S60 was on sale at Best Buy for $998.99.

Now, this week it is on sale for $1149.99!!!

Dang!!!

Might as well get the 65" from Pauls TV or Costco for $1299. Think Pauls still has the 60" for $999.
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post #5156 of 7070 Old 11-12-2013, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by yesitsmario View Post


Might as well get the 65" from Pauls TV or Costco for $1299. Think Pauls still has the 60" for $999.

 

No, Paul's is back up to $1149.99 also...

 

Strange...

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post #5157 of 7070 Old 11-12-2013, 06:43 PM
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Yeah to me the dimness is a big deal because i game alot like 85% of the time i have the tv on and they dont look right when theyre dim, in fact i am buying a tv for the sole purpose of gaming on my new xbox one in about 2 weeks. But for cable and movie watching it was amazing and if that was all i did i would most certinally have kept it.

The holy grail of LED's to game on would be the Sony 55" 900A....If you have the cash to burn, i'd suggest that.


http://www.bestbuy.com/site/55-class-54-5-8-diag--led-1080p-240hz-smart-3d-hdtv/8653079.p;jsessionid=12DCDE7995A6DD2B17E8B13432FDD564.bbolsp-app03-156?id=1218882642697&skuId=8653079&st=sony%20900A&cp=1&lp=1
Tis a shame the Samsung 8500 produces 53ms of lag, because that sounds like the perfect TV for you since it can get almost as bright as an LED.

As for me, i'd never beable to put up with the blur, the S60 is IT for me. For gaming, like i mentioned earlier i set the contrast to 100, panel brightness to HIGH, brightness to -2(or -1) and gamma to 2.4 for the brightest image possible. One could always ramp up AGC, which makes this set very bright, but the downside is that you're burning out color shadow detail to the point of objects/whatever looking like a saturated blob. If Samsung whips out a super bright plasma next year with 34ms or less input lag i will no doubt make the switch!
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post #5158 of 7070 Old 11-12-2013, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Ben Thompson View Post

Yeah to me the dimness is a big deal because i game alot like 85% of the time i have the tv on and they dont look right when theyre dim, in fact i am buying a tv for the sole purpose of gaming on my new xbox one in about 2 weeks. But for cable and movie watching it was amazing and if that was all i did i would most certinally have kept it.


The picture really isn't that dim when you raise the contrast in the 95 and have the Panel brightness set to high. I've gotten used to it to, it's really no longer a big deal to me.....It's not AS bright as my 27" Sony CRT, it may have agressive ABL, nor is the motion as good , but at least the color gamut is far more rich and vivid, the black levels are slightly deeper, it's got progressive scan, 1080p/720p, HDMI and is humungo at 60" I look at it like a movie theatre type of TV. It is true that you never get a bright contrasty picture in the theatre(which sucks imo) so this kind of replicates the same feel at home and then some!
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post #5159 of 7070 Old 11-12-2013, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

The holy grail of LED's to game on would be the Sony 55" 900A....If you have the cash to burn, i'd suggest that.


http://www.bestbuy.com/site/55-class-54-5-8-diag--led-1080p-240hz-smart-3d-hdtv/8653079.p;jsessionid=12DCDE7995A6DD2B17E8B13432FDD564.bbolsp-app03-156?id=1218882642697&skuId=8653079&st=sony%20900A&cp=1&lp=1
Tis a shame the Samsung 8500 produces 53ms of lag, because that sounds like the perfect TV for you since it can get almost as bright as an LED.

As for me, i'd never beable to put up with the blur, the S60 is IT for me. For gaming, like i mentioned earlier i set the contrast to 100, panel brightness to HIGH, brightness to -2(or -1) and gamma to 2.4 for the brightest image possible. One could always ramp up AGC, which makes this set very bright, but the downside is that you're burning out color shadow detail to the point of objects/whatever looking like a saturated blob. If Samsung whips out a super bright plasma next year with 34ms or less input lag i will no doubt make the switch!

Yeah im gonna take this tv back tommorrow and go to my local tv shop "stereo shop" and see of theres any deals to be had there its seems like they know what they are talking about cause when i called them i as looking for a tv and im a big gamer that was the first tv he suggested but i told him it was a little to pricey for me at the moment so he suggested a few others that i will need to check out.... well so....... Worst comes to worst i will hold off on buying a tv and get that sony 900a next moth when i have the money
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post #5160 of 7070 Old 11-12-2013, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Ben Thompson View Post

Yeah im gonna take this tv back tommorrow and go to my local tv shop "stereo shop" and see of theres any deals to be had there its seems like they know what they are talking about cause when i called them i as looking for a tv and im a big gamer that was the first tv he suggested but i told him it was a little to pricey for me at the moment so he suggested a few others that i will need to check out.... well so....... Worst comes to worst i will hold off on buying a tv and get that sony 900a next moth when i have the money

That sony does 19ms of lag, which is fantastic, besting out the S60's 34ms. IF you're as big of a gamer as you say you are then you won't want to dip over 34ms....I had a hard time to adjust to even 32ms on my S30 for a while, i'm a hardcore retro gamer(which is why i use my sony SDTV for older consoles like the NES,SNES and atari2600) and having that 'on the dime' precision is everything to me. :P
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