Official Panasonic S60 Series Discussion Thread - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 7127 Old 04-18-2013, 08:21 AM
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Noobie question
Im coming from a 55" and sit 10-12 feet from my tv. Want to go bigger...thinking of getting a 65" S60..,,Am I going to big? I do a lot of gaming (fps)

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post #632 of 7127 Old 04-18-2013, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kookiemonster View Post

Noobie question
Im coming from a 55" and sit 10-12 feet from my tv. Want to go bigger...thinking of getting a 65" S60..,,Am I going to big? I do a lot of gaming (fps)

No not at all! I'm 9 feet away, just sold my 60" and got a 65" ST60 yesterday.. I'm watching/playing only HD content.. 60" was just on the verge of being immersive from 9ft away, 65" should do it 😎

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post #633 of 7127 Old 04-18-2013, 10:02 AM
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Re-did my calibration now with avg gamma of 2.29 for those that are interested. My set now has 344 hours so my pixels have matured a bit more.

Sony 32" EX400 calibrated settings

Panasonic 50" S60 calibrated settings

HTPC/Sony S5100 to Sony HT-CT150 to Panasonic 55" VT60, Sony 32" EX400, Panasonic 50" S60

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post #634 of 7127 Old 04-18-2013, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fairchild99 View Post

Re-did my calibration now with avg gamma of 2.29 for those that are interested. My set now has 344 hours so my pixels have matured a bit more.

Thanks, will have to look into these later.

What are you measuring for black levels?
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post #635 of 7127 Old 04-18-2013, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fairchild99 View Post

Re-did my calibration now with avg gamma of 2.29 for those that are interested. My set now has 344 hours so my pixels have matured a bit more.
Cool, thanks. I'll have to try these out soon. Is there any way to tell, e.g. in the menus or a service menu somewhere, how many hours the panel has been on? I must be approaching about 100 hours now, would certainly be curious to keep an eye on the exact number.
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post #636 of 7127 Old 04-18-2013, 11:02 AM
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I'll ask one more time if someone can please compare the picture quality between the ST50 vs S60. I am also curious about the comparison in input lag between these two.

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post #637 of 7127 Old 04-18-2013, 11:09 AM
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Just wait for the review from cnet, David Katsmeiere (sp?) is posting his review this week he said for the S60, I'm sure they'll be plenty to learn there
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post #638 of 7127 Old 04-18-2013, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkAELSU View Post

Just wait for the review from cnet, David Katsmeiere (sp?) is posting his review this week he said for the S60, I'm sure they'll be plenty to learn there
He mentions the S60 many times in his ST60 review. The primary difference is the lack of an AR filter. The ST60 seems to be marginally, to a bit, better than the ST60 in every other way (save for input lag, as we all know). I'm assuming it's going to be posted tomorrow. The ST60 review was posted last Friday, and he said the S60 was up for review this week.
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post #639 of 7127 Old 04-18-2013, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midkay View Post

Cool, thanks. I'll have to try these out soon. Is there any way to tell, e.g. in the menus or a service menu somewhere, how many hours the panel has been on? I must be approaching about 100 hours now, would certainly be curious to keep an eye on the exact number.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bamaboy1234 View Post

Thanks, will have to look into these later.

What are you measuring for black levels?

Yes, you hold the lowering of volume button on the actual TV (Vol. -) then on the remote you press the info button 3 times.

Then you click OK then press 2 on the remote until you are at the SRV-TOOL entry, then you click OK on the remote, then scroll down to the PTCT using down arrow on the remote, then click the right arrow on the remote to go to the right of the PTCT, then hold the MUTE on the control and it will give you a count in hours. (to exit the Service menu, you have to hold the Power button on the TV itself until it shuts off, then just power on the TV as usual)

This is identical to how you reach the service menu on older Panasonic models. In fact my P42S2 uses the same method.

As for black levels, sorry but the calibration software I'm using is not providing me a proper reading at 0 IRE so can't provide black levels. -check my edit

Edit: I just checked my original calibration file, the one with everything at defaults before I calibrated for the first time. And it showed me a black level of 0.005 ftl Not sure how accurate this actually is but it's something. This was when I was going to try calibrating in Custom mode before I made any changes to gray scale or CMS. These are the settings I was using:
Quote:
custom
con 83
bright +2
color 50
tint 0
sharp 0
warm 2

panel bright mid
agc 0
black ext 0
color gamut 0

1080p pixel direct off
hdmi/dvi rgb range nonstandard
black level light

rgb full 0-255 in pixel settings AMD card with MadVR at 0-255

Maybe it has to do with the pixel settings and/or using non-standard range of 0-255 in the HDMI RGB range. Since then I've been calibrating my source with RGB Limited 16-235 settings in the card as well as the standard 16-235 range in the HDMI RGB range setting.


Sony 32" EX400 calibrated settings

Panasonic 50" S60 calibrated settings

HTPC/Sony S5100 to Sony HT-CT150 to Panasonic 55" VT60, Sony 32" EX400, Panasonic 50" S60

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post #640 of 7127 Old 04-18-2013, 12:23 PM
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Well, it's finally time to replace my 10 plus year old, 175 pound, 32" Sony WEGA CRT and the 50" S64 is looking mighty nice, assuming the price is right. I already have a 42" Panasonic X1 in the basement and love it, and its only 720P! Was looking to put the new TV in the basement, where we watch most of our TV, and move the old 42" upstairs, but that presents a few issues.

First is the possible reflections I will get moving the older TV upstairs to the family room. Luckily I will have time to try a test move for a few days to see how bad it really is and if closing curtains will be enough to overcome it.

Second, and more importantly is Panasonic's ridiculous lack of inputs!!! That old, bare bones 42" has 3 HDMI, 1 component and 2 or 3 composites. Nowadays, you are lucky to get 2 HDMI and that crazy combined component/composite. I need 2 HDMI (blu-ray and TiVo), 1 component and 1 composite (PS2 and Wii). I would prefer a third HDMI for hooking up the laptop occasionally, but that is not a deal breaker.

I really do not want to have to jury-rig some crazy cable splitters/combiners to make this work. I am now wondering if the 42" will have to stay in the basement and the new, larger TV will end up in the family room because of the simple lack of one input. Grrrr.....
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post #641 of 7127 Old 04-18-2013, 12:30 PM
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I am hopeing to replace my Sharp Quattron 70LE847U with this TV in the next week or so..

Dieing to go back to plasma

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post #642 of 7127 Old 04-18-2013, 01:37 PM
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First post in a while for me... First, thanks to all on this thread for sharing information on this set.

I currently have a Sammy plasma that, after 2 years, has developed a panel problem. It's out of warranty. Needless to say, I'm frustrated and will not be replacing the set with a Sammy. So i am in the market again. I came across the reviews for this set and checked out the picture at a local BB yesterday. I have a few questions that i was hoping you guys could help me with before I pull the trigger.

Some setup info...My current setup has a Sat. box, Apple TV and and XBOX going straight to my TV via HDMI. Given that this set has only 2 HDMI inputs I am going to have to give up a source (let's assume I don't want to add an HDMI switcher to my setup and I would prefer not to upgrade my AV receiver to an HDMI switching one.) We use the Apple TV quite a lot for movie streaming from our local iTunes library and we use it a lot for Netflix and Youtube. As I understand it from a little google research, the XBOX with a media streaming solution like Plex will not be a solution to the streaming need because the XBOX doesn't like MP4s or most any non-Microsoft media types. From looking at the limited information on the streaming capabilities that this set will support, I see most of the major players are available - Netflix, YouTube, Hulu plus, Vudu, Amazon, etc. I also see it has DLNA capability.

So.....

1) For those of you who are streaming media via DLNA, how is the performance? My initial experiences with DLNA on the PS3 and other boxes were filled with issues with media selection and FF/REW of media. Any issues with certain media types? What media server solution are you using (Plex?)

2) Are there any music streaming applications available? Pandora? Spotify? IHeartRadio?

3) How easy is the streaming apps interface to access and navigate?

Thanks in advance for the help. smile.gif
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post #643 of 7127 Old 04-18-2013, 03:07 PM
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Hey guys, I just did an input lag test on the s60 with my laptop. It ranges anywhere from 0ms to 44ms so i'm guessing it's around 22ms of lag. In one pic the s60 was ahead of the laptop. I don't know how accurate these tests are, so any advice is welcome. I also noticed that when I stopped the stop watch both screens were identical all the time. Check out the pics and let me know what you think.
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post #644 of 7127 Old 04-18-2013, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCMike80 View Post

Hey guys, I just did an input lag test on the s60 with my laptop. It ranges anywhere from 0ms to 44ms so i'm guessing it's around 22ms of lag. In one pic the s60 was ahead of the laptop. I don't know how accurate these tests are, so any advice is welcome. I also noticed that when I stopped the stop watch both screens were identical all the time. Check out the pics and let me know what you think.
Good on you, Mike (kudos on doing multiple tests and averaging them). However, there's two things in this test that would help make it even more accurate. Cameras use a rolling shutter, rather than a global shutter, so having the laptop at the bottom of the frame, and the TV in the upper will skew the results. Try putting the laptop higher when doing the test so that the timers are, literally, on the same level. Second, Try using a faster shutter speed, preferably 1/60 or 1/120, so you can better freeze the motion. At 1/30 like you are at now, it's often recording two different numbers. Someone else on here (not sure which thread) tried using a better method that shows a frame moving around a grid. Easier to gauge input lag than looking at numbers. I think Moonchilde knows what it is.
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post #645 of 7127 Old 04-18-2013, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by El Matadurr View Post

Good on you, Mike (kudos on doing multiple tests and averaging them). However, there's two things in this test that would help make it even more accurate. Cameras use a rolling shutter, rather than a global shutter, so having the laptop at the bottom of the frame, and the TV in the upper will skew the results. Try putting the laptop higher when doing the test so that the timers are, literally, on the same level. Second, Try using a faster shutter speed, preferably 1/60 or 1/120, so you can better freeze the motion. At 1/30 like you are at now, it's often recording two different numbers. Someone else on here (not sure which thread) tried using a better method that shows a frame moving around a grid. Easier to gauge input lag than looking at numbers. I think Moonchilde knows what it is.


Thanks, yeah the camera is a panasonic lumix dmc-fh20 so it's not that good. I will try and change the shutter speed and put both displays level. thanks for the tips.

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post #646 of 7127 Old 04-18-2013, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by OCMike80 View Post

Thanks, yeah the camera is a panasonic lumix dmc-fh20 so it's not that good. I will try and change the shutter speed and put both displays level. thanks for the tips.
I just looked that camera up. Since it doesn't have a mode dial where you can go into full-manual exposure mode, you'll have to bump up the ISO until it gives you a faster shutter speed.
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post #647 of 7127 Old 04-18-2013, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by El Matadurr View Post

I just looked that camera up. Since it doesn't have a mode dial where you can go into full-manual exposure mode, you'll have to bump up the ISO until it gives you a faster shutter speed.


Yeah, I just bumped up the iso to 1600 and it still gave some blurry readings. I probably need a better camera.

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post #648 of 7127 Old 04-18-2013, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by OCMike80 View Post

Yeah, I just bumped up the iso to 1600 and it still gave some blurry readings. I probably need a better camera.
Well...that would help, yes. tongue.gif

However, at ISO 1600, exposing for the screen, you should easily be getting at least 1/60. Hmm...
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post #649 of 7127 Old 04-18-2013, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by El Matadurr View Post

Well...that would help, yes. tongue.gif

However, at ISO 1600, exposing for the screen, you should easily be getting at least 1/60. Hmm...

My laptop only outputs 720p, 1366 x 768 is the resolution the s60 was in. Do you think that may have added lag to the s60 since it wasn't in 1080p?

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post #650 of 7127 Old 04-18-2013, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCMike80 View Post

My laptop only outputs 720p, 1366 x 768 is the resolution the s60 was in. Do you think that may have added lag to the s60 since it wasn't in 1080p?
Anything is a possibility. Judging by your pics, it looks like the TV upscaled the image, which could introduce more lag.

I forgot to ask earlier, what kind of processor-intensive settings do you have activated/deactivated?
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post #651 of 7127 Old 04-18-2013, 05:33 PM
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ISO count is for how well a camera sees light. Higher ISO in darker environments will pick up light easier, lower ISO will require brighter environments. At least I think.

Mike and anyone else trying out home camera testing, go to this link and click the RAW button. Then, save it to C:\Users\YourUserNameHere, then click your start menu and type CMD in the search box. It's usually best to just rename the tool something simple, like lag.exe. Type lag 6 10 and it will ask you to type the words i agree then once it starts up, max the window.

Then take a picture. We'll take into account processing and scaling and see how that factors on the S60.

https://github.com/shurcooL/RefreshRateMultitool/blob/master/RefreshRateMultitool.exe
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post #652 of 7127 Old 04-18-2013, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Matadurr View Post

Anything is a possibility. Judging by your pics, it looks like the TV upscaled the image, which could introduce more lag.

I forgot to ask earlier, what kind of processor-intensive settings do you have activated/deactivated?

In custom and vivid mode everything is turned off. standard, cinema, and home theater everything is off except video nr is on low. I tried to turn 1080p direct on, but since it's in 720p it was grayed out. I guess I need a new camera, and a new laptop. Geez, this sucks. I guess it's safe to say the s60 has less lag than these tests??? Like I said I don't notice it while gaming and I went from a crt tv to a pioneer elite crt rear projection, (to a sony lcd xbr and samsung 650a plasma both of which I immediately noticed something was wrong). I didn't know what input lag was until those two horrible tvs.

That's what led me to panasonic plasma tvs, and that's why I rave about the s60, because i've been reading about how 2012 and 2013 panny's have gone down in quality when it comes to input lag. I also read that someone supposedly tested the u50 at 28.3 milliseconds with the leo bodnar device. I wonder if I could do the same test with the u50 and compare it to that and then to the s60's test???

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post #653 of 7127 Old 04-18-2013, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

ISO count is for how well a camera sees light. Higher ISO in darker environments will pick up light easier, lower ISO will require brighter environments. At least I think.

Mike and anyone else trying out home camera testing, go to this link and click the RAW button. Then, save it to C:\Users\YourUserNameHere, then click your start menu and type CMD in the search box. It's usually best to just rename the tool something simple, like lag.exe. Type lag 6 10 and it will ask you to type the words i agree then once it starts up, max the window.

Then take a picture. We'll take into account processing and scaling and see how that factors on the S60.

https://github.com/shurcooL/RefreshRateMultitool/blob/master/RefreshRateMultitool.exe
Trust me, I know my camera terminology. wink.gif Since his camera doesn't have shutter priority, the increase of ISO will increase the shutter speed (or close down the aperture, whichever the camera thinks is best).

Quote:
Originally Posted by OCMike80 View Post

In custom and vivid mode everything is turned off. standard, cinema, and home theater everything is off except video nr is on low. I tried to turn 1080p direct on, but since it's in 720p it was grayed out. I guess I need a new camera, and a new laptop. Geez, this sucks. I guess it's safe to say the s60 has less lag than these tests??? Like I said I don't notice it while gaming and I went from a crt tv to a pioneer elite crt rear projection, (to a sony lcd xbr and samsung 650a plasma both of which I immediately noticed something was wrong). I didn't know what input lag was until those two horrible tvs.

That's what led me to panasonic plasma tvs, and that's why I rave about the s60, because i've been reading about how 2012 and 2013 panny's have gone down in quality when it comes to input lag. I also read that someone supposedly tested the u50 at 28.3 milliseconds with the leo bodnar device. I wonder if I could do the same test with the u50 and compare it to that and then to the s60's test???
Given the variables, and that you're only getting 44ms max, it could be pretty safe to say that it doesn't have a lag problem (combining with the subjective opinions of others on the thread and the videos that midkay posted). Actual numbers, as always, would be great. Displaylag.com says he'll be testing at least the ST60 soon. I'm assuming--given all the hubbub of people comparing these two sets, he'll also test an S60.
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post #654 of 7127 Old 04-18-2013, 06:32 PM
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P.S. First thing I'm checking tomorrow is CNET. Review should be up by then, if they follow the posting pattern with the ST60. biggrin.gif
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post #655 of 7127 Old 04-18-2013, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

ISO count is for how well a camera sees light. Higher ISO in darker environments will pick up light easier, lower ISO will require brighter environments. At least I think.

Mike and anyone else trying out home camera testing, go to this link and click the RAW button. Then, save it to C:\Users\YourUserNameHere, then click your start menu and type CMD in the search box. It's usually best to just rename the tool something simple, like lag.exe. Type lag 6 10 and it will ask you to type the words i agree then once it starts up, max the window.

Then take a picture. We'll take into account processing and scaling and see how that factors on the S60.

https://github.com/shurcooL/RefreshRateMultitool/blob/master/RefreshRateMultitool.exe

How do you read this? Is it one frame give or take? It looks like the laptop display is showing less shades.

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post #656 of 7127 Old 04-18-2013, 06:56 PM
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Can someone post some good pictures with content of their S60? Would love to see some shots of black levels and HQ movies and maybe something like Finding Nemo or other Disney/Pixar movies to see if that gradient issue is really noticeable.

While its not a good reference, i was looking at the videos from CES and under those bright lights even without the infite black panel the S60 seemed great..

Would love t compare to some of the picture ive seen in the ST60 thread..

Really debating on wehter or not I want to spend the extra grand for the ST60

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post #657 of 7127 Old 04-18-2013, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Shady195 View Post

Can someone post some good pictures with content of their S60? Would love to see some shots of black levels and HQ movies and maybe something like Finding Nemo or other Disney/Pixar movies to see if that gradient issue is really noticeable.

While its not a good reference, i was looking at the videos from CES and under those bright lights even without the infite black panel the S60 seemed great..

Would love t compare to some of the picture ive seen in the ST60 thread..

Really debating on wehter or not I want to spend the extra grand for the ST60

I'll try and post some pics tomorrow. Trouble is I don't have any disney pixar blu-rays. I do have verizon fios though, so I'll look up some disney movies on demand. In my opinion if picture quality is your only concern then you get what you pay for. St will look better than the S, Vt will look better than the st, and the zt is going to be amazing. Don't get me wrong the s60 is an awesome tv with a beautiful picture, but the st 60 probably has a better one.

Panasonic Plasma Fan TC-P65ZT60 TC-P65S1 TC-P65S60 TC-60PU54-2 TC-P50U50-2 2 pioneer elite Vsx 42's XBOX 360 PS3 Verizon Fios QIP 7232 2
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post #658 of 7127 Old 04-18-2013, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by OCMike80 View Post

How do you read this? Is it one frame give or take? It looks like the laptop display is showing less shades.

Without 60 boxes it's really impossible to tell which exact frame it is because the rows aren't there.

In the second picture, if that's 1 row, then that would be the laptop having a complete 4th frame and starting frame 5. The plasma has a complete frame 2 and half frame 3. So, we could say, 4.10 - 2.5 = 1.60 or essentially, 2 frames. Factor in the possibility of your laptop having 1 frame of lag and that makes the S60 in scaling mode 3 frames, which means that in non-scaling mode there is a good chance it's 2 frames of lag. If your laptop is about 6 ms of input lag, then that would mean the S60 is 1 frame of lag. It all depends on the display lag of the laptop.

But the second image looks like it's about 1 frame of lag, because it has a complete first frame while the laptop is in transition of drawing frame 2 to 3. This is still very good, IF the laptop display is 1 frame or less. Hell, in light of the ST60, this is still damn good regardless!

If you could re-run the test with the 6 10 (just type 6 10 after the exe name in the command prompt) option after typing in the command, that would be great.
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post #659 of 7127 Old 04-18-2013, 07:32 PM
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I'll ask one more time if someone can please compare the picture quality between the ST50 vs S60. I am also curious about the comparison in input lag between these two.

PQ: ST > S
Lag: S > ST
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post #660 of 7127 Old 04-18-2013, 07:55 PM
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PQ: ST > S
Lag: S > ST
A damn shame we can't have both in the ST60. rolleyes.gif
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