Official Panasonic S60 Series Discussion Thread - Page 223 - AVS Forum
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post #6661 of 7068 Old 03-17-2014, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by jlsavs View Post

Is this PIXEL DIRECT just setting your Bluray PLAYER to output 4:4:4 ? and NOT changing any settings on the S60 PANEL ??

Not sure what you mean by changing settings. I set the pixel direct to on while watching a Blu-Ray disc (If it's not coming from a 4:4:4 source it is greyed out). Everything else remains the same. That being said, I have done several comparisons and have yet to see any significant difference in PQ when changing the pixel direct function on and off.


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post #6662 of 7068 Old 03-17-2014, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by fibonacci3 View Post

I downloaded the 211 update and ended up with a folder on my Thumb drive called "ver_2_211_PS64_S60"
Inside the folder is a file: SDDL.SEC

I also had some other files on the thumb drive. After inserting the Thumbdrive into the TV an error msg said "No Signal"
So for some reason the update didn't load.

Does the thumbdrive have to just have the SDDL.SEC file and no other files or folders?

 

I think a "clean" USB flashdrive is best. Panasonic definitely needs to improve their firmware installation instructions.


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post #6663 of 7068 Old 03-17-2014, 09:48 PM
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What happens when you send 4:4:4 rgb to an S60?
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post #6664 of 7068 Old 03-17-2014, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post


Not sure what you mean by changing settings. I set the pixel direct to on while watching a Blu-Ray disc (If it's not coming from a 4:4:4 source it is greyed out). Everything else remains the same. That being said, I have done several comparisons and have yet to see any significant difference in PQ when changing the pixel direct function on and off.


Ian

 

Others with more Panasonic knowledge can probably elaborate better on this, but I'm pretty sure that the 1080p Pixel Direct feature disables or bypasses the TV's subpixel rendering routines, and possibly also some other picture processing. That's the way it appeared to me anyway. Both the S60 and the Sammy F5300 appeared to use subpixel rendering by default in my tests.


In theory, the subpixel rendering should make video and images look more detailed by mapping distinct spacial information into each separate red, green and blue subpixel on the screen. But in practice it doesn't always work as well as you might think.


To map distinct image information into each red, green and blue sub-pixel, the TV effectively has to scale/resample the horizontal resolution of the image from 1920 pixels up to 5760 (sub)pixels. And that resampling process may make the image appear somewhat less sharp. It really depends on how the content was authored though. And AFAIK, there is no standard for subpixel rendering on the video authoring side.

 

If you turn the subpixel rendering OFF by enabling the 1080p Pixel Direct option, the horizontal resolution of the TV is effectively reduced from 5760 subpixels back down to just 1920 pixels of distinct picture information, which may result in a slightly jaggier, but also slightly sharper image to some people's eyes.


I noticed color changes on 1080p YCbCr 4:4:4 HDMI sources with the 1080p Pixel Direct feature as well, namely the green push mentioned earlier. But saw no obvious color changes with RGB HDMI sources when switching the 1080p Pixel Direct feature off and on. So maybe this feature was intended more for computer inputs. (Or maybe the green push on YCbCr content is a "feature" they included in the 1080p Pixel Direct option for golf fans.)

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post #6665 of 7068 Old 03-17-2014, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by ChadThunder View Post

What happens when you send 4:4:4 rgb to an S60?

 

As indicated above, RGB HDMI signals worked fine in my tests. The 1080p Pixel Direct feature works with either YCbCr 4:4:4 or RGB sources (IOW, video signals with no chroma sub-sampling). I only noticed the color changes though with the YCbCr sources.


Some players may also output different colors in RGB mode than they do in the YCbCr mode though. I've tested quite a few Blu-ray and DVD players, and all of the low to mid-range 2012 Sony Blu-ray players (S185, S390, S590) had noticeable green push/clipping in their RGB modes, until that issue was corrected in a firmware update. And other brands I tested also had similar kinds of errors. YCbCr color decoding errors are also quite common.


The only way to know is to try different combinations of settings on both the player and display to see which yield the best results. You can also check this site for information on individual players. They do a very good job of assessing the color accuracy of players...

 

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blu-ray-players/blu-ray-players-reviews.html

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post #6666 of 7068 Old 03-18-2014, 12:17 AM
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I copied the file SDDL.SEC which was in a folder on the Thumb drive and pasted it in the drive along with some other non related files I had in the thumb drive.
Then the Panny recognized the update and the update process went smoothly.
So the key is to have the SDDL.SEC file out in the open, not hidden within a folder.

And having other superfluous, non-related, files on the drive didn't prevent the update process.
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post #6667 of 7068 Old 03-18-2014, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToonMasterTim View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by braveblade View Post

guys i have a question here. Originally I'm using fairchild's setting on my s64. It looks great. Then I received my WOW disc, so I tried to calibrate the tv using the tools in WOW disc. To my surprise the setting i got from WOW disc is very much different than fairchild's setting.

fairchild's latest setting:
brightness: +2
contrast: 80
color: 46
sharpness: 0
tint: 0

i got:
brightness: +6 (at +2 some shadow areas become complete black)
contrast: 44 (huge difference here. I used both beginner and advanced tools to adjust it. Both of them suggest 44 is the best value in my case).
color: 49 (got this value by using the blue filter include in the disc)
sharpness: 0
tint: 0

Are these differences normal, especially the difference in contrast? Thanks again for fairchild's setting.

I suppose it is possible that variances in your panel might require those settings for a good calibration, but I am skeptical too. Contrast that low seems wildly different from what other calibrations have been for the set and I imagine it is a very dim picture. Also, you might take a closer look at brightness. When I get above zero I immediately notice the dithering in the blacks. What I mean by that is you'll see pixels lighting up like fireflies in the dark areas if you get closer to the screen. Turning it down to zero eliminated that for me. If you're sitting far enough away it won't bother you. But something to consider.

Hello, I have created some patterns that are interesting for users that are experiencing difficulties to set and see shadow detail to their setups or to prevent clipping. You can see more patterns here.





Advanced Brightness Flashing Bars + Advanced Contrast Flashing Bars.

These 2 Patterns are based to design of the AVSHD Disk Contrast-Brighness Flashing Bar Patterns but the Gray Bars are replaced with 7 Color Gray+RGBCMY Bars.

This makes more interesting the choice for the correct value of your Contrast-Brightness Setting of your display.

As we know Blu-Ray has 8-bit color depth and it's using signal in TV Legal (Video Range) (16-235) for bluray movies content.

Levels 0 and 255 are not used in image transmission... they used for other reasons.

So the image is 1-254, from these levels 1-16 are not used (are black) because 16 is the reference black. For the 235-254 you can have image information about these levels encoded but they are not used either in movie content.

Blu-Ray Mastering / post production studios are working the bluray content to 16-235, they have RGB Histograms, vectorscopes, out of range indicators, autolimiters, so they have real-time checking/controling for the content to be inside 16-235 range

....but during the mastering, the use RGB Space, then it's converted to YCC 4:2:0 for the bluray disk and when you playback the movie the player is converting the signal from YCC 4:2:0 -> YCC 4:2:2 or YCC 4:4:4 or RGB-Video and when it enters to your display its converted again until it re-converted at the final stage to RGB to go to the panel.

So after all these conversion, add the rounding errors, add player inaccurancies, add player problems to conversions..... maybe the 235 will go to 236 or 237 or 238.

I have a lot of reference calibration disks that have videos with 16-254 levels but these are only for testing/demonstrations, actual bluray movies they are not using 240-254 levels....

But if you like you can set your Contrast to view flashing bars up to 253 (254 is the background) but the only thing you will miss is your total peak output.... this means lower contrast ratio..... Contrast ratio is the most imporant characteristic of a display...

You can create 2 memories, one pre-calibrated with setting the contrast to see up to 254 flashing bar and an another memory pre-calibrated to see up to 238-239 flashing bars..... later measure your contrast ratio and swap these memories while you are viewring actual content to see the difference.

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post #6668 of 7068 Old 03-18-2014, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by KOF View Post


So, how do you like your S60? Interested in hearing your impression.

I love it so far! I am still tinkering with the settings and I have a lot of questions (like why does everyone suggest Warm1 or Warm2 only for settings when sometimes I feel Normal looks better in some instances). I am a little butthurt about some of the all-white images, when in menu they look so bright, I am unsure if there is anything I can do to counteract this. WindWaker HD and Super Mario 3D World look AMAZING! I was not really a fan of how D-Nice's settings looked on mine, but I guess that's because they were initially for an ST60. I am currently using settings submitted by an user named shenaniganz08.

 

Any suggestions (or a basic guide I can read) on what the specific settings are for and how to make the most of them?

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post #6669 of 7068 Old 03-18-2014, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by KeroKeroCola View Post

I love it so far! I am still tinkering with the settings and I have a lot of questions (like why does everyone suggest Warm1 or Warm2 only for settings when sometimes I feel Normal looks better in some instances). I am a little butthurt about some of the all-white images, when in menu they look so bright, I am unsure if there is anything I can do to counteract this. WindWaker HD and Super Mario 3D World look AMAZING! I was not really a fan of how D-Nice's settings looked on mine, but I guess that's because they were initially for an ST60. I am currently using settings submitted by an user named shenaniganz08.

Any suggestions (or a basic guide I can read) on what the specific settings are for and how to make the most of them?

Honestly just tweak to your liking but for movies(BluRay/DVD via HDMI) I recommend Warm2(or 1) and you may want to buy the Disney WOW Worlds of Wonder Blu Ray to help calibrate that setting.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1303667/disneys-wow-world-of-wonder-blu-ray-official-avsforum-review

Gaming via Component Xbox360 I run it on Warm 1 with the brightness up to +8

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post #6670 of 7068 Old 03-18-2014, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by MilkManX View Post


Honestly just tweak to your liking but for movies(BluRay/DVD via HDMI) I recommend Warm2(or 1) and you may want to buy the Disney WOW Worlds of Wonder Blu Ray to help calibrate that setting.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1303667/disneys-wow-world-of-wonder-blu-ray-official-avsforum-review

Gaming via Component Xbox360 I run it on Warm 1 with the brightness up to +8

biggrin.gif

Out of curiosity, are you using someone else's settings? How high are you running your contrast? Any other settings you have set on? I have read about turning off the Pixel Direct thing, do you have it on or off? Are you running the HDMI/DVI RGB range on standard or non-standard?

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post #6671 of 7068 Old 03-18-2014, 12:19 PM
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Would have to check the set when I get home and take a pic for you.

I started with Fairchild's settings and from there it was tweaked with the Disney WOW disc.

That was also the base for the game input but I had to turn up the brightness to make that work.
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post #6672 of 7068 Old 03-18-2014, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by MilkManX View Post

Would have to check the set when I get home and take a pic for you.

I started with Fairchild's settings and from there it was tweaked with the Disney WOW disc.

That was also the base for the game input but I had to turn up the brightness to make that work.

Thanks, I'd appreciate that. I'm thinking of getting the Disney WOW disc as well, seeing as how many people do recommend it.

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post #6673 of 7068 Old 03-18-2014, 03:50 PM
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Which panny setup page is this PIXEL DIRECT on ? I have the 60S60 .. maybe I can't enable/disable this on my unit ??
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

Not sure what you mean by changing settings. I set the pixel direct to on while watching a Blu-Ray disc (If it's not coming from a 4:4:4 source it is greyed out). Everything else remains the same. That being said, I have done several comparisons and have yet to see any significant difference in PQ when changing the pixel direct function on and off.


Ian
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post #6674 of 7068 Old 03-18-2014, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by jlsavs View Post

Which panny setup page is this PIXEL DIRECT on ? I have the 60S60 .. maybe I can't enable/disable this on my unit ??

I believe it's in the Advanced Picture settings which is in the Pro Settings sub menu.
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post #6675 of 7068 Old 03-18-2014, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by KOF View Post


So, how do you like your S60? Interested in hearing your impression.

Sorry to reply a second time to your post, but I needed to give you an update. I just got Dark Souls 2 today (Amazon shipping so late :( ) and the game looks FANTASTIC on the TV, I am very happy with my purchase. Also, I was still on the fence about whites, since they seemed sort of "dirty" every now and then, but I just realized power saving was on! So, if anyone is complaining about this, turning off CATS is not enough, inside the Eco settings pane, there is an option for power consumption. Anyway, after changing that, I instantly noticed the difference!

 

With that said, I keep falling in love with my TV with every passing minute!

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post #6676 of 7068 Old 03-18-2014, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ADU View Post
 

 

So maybe this feature was intended more for computer inputs.

 

Just to expand a little more on this... if your computer/graphics card is already doing it's own subpixel rendering, then you probably wouldn't need or want the TV to duplicate that process, because it would make text and others details on the screen less distinct. Turning the TV's subpixel rendering off by enabling the 1080p Pixel Direct option would probably be beneficial in this case.


For video content it's probably more a matter of personal taste. If you turn the 1080p Pixel Direct feature on for Blu-rays and so forth, then you'll probably lose the "benefits" of the TV's subpixel rendering. But the picture may look sharper to some that way.


I can't remember which, if any, of the different Screen Settings (ie, Screen Format, Overscan, H-size, Zoom, Pixel-orbiting) are disabled with 1080p Pixel Direct. But to get the maximum benefit from that feature, you'd definitely want the 1080p source to map 1:1 (pixel-for-pixel) directly to the screen, which means no overscan/cropping or scaling of the image. So re-checking some of those Screen Settings in the Picture menu to insure they're consistent with that might be a good idea.

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post #6677 of 7068 Old 03-18-2014, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post


Hello, I have created some patterns that are interesting for users that are experiencing difficulties to set and see shadow detail to their setups or to prevent clipping. You can see more patterns here.




 

 

 

^ Very nice. You've got some great patterns on your page Ted. But I think patterns like the ones above might be a little more useful to folks with some knowledge of the calibration process.


If, for example, I simply copied these images onto a USB flashdrive and displayed them from my Blu-ray player as is, the levels shown in your images above would not be accurate on my TV, because my Sony player automatically compresses the dynamic range of still images from 0-255 down to 16-235 video levels on-the-fly, to be more consistent with other video content. So the "0" values in your image, for example, would actually display on my TV at approximately level 16 (video black) and the "16" values would display brighter than video black.


You need to have a pretty good understanding of what your player, computer or other input device is doing "levels-wise" to get the most out of patterns like these. Just FYI.


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post #6678 of 7068 Old 03-18-2014, 10:53 PM
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Kero, energy saving is turned off by default
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post #6679 of 7068 Old 03-19-2014, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by ADU View Post

^ Very nice. You've got some great patterns on your page Ted. But I think patterns like the ones above might be a little more useful to folks with some knowledge of the calibration process.


If, for example, I simply copied these images onto a USB flashdrive and displayed them from my Blu-ray player as is, the levels shown in your images above would not be accurate on my TV, because my Sony player automatically compresses the dynamic range of still images from 0-255 down to 16-235 video levels on-the-fly, to be more consistent with other video content. So the "0" values in your image, for example, would actually display on my TV at approximately level 16 (video black) and the "16" values would display brighter than video black.


You need to have a pretty good understanding of what your player, computer or other input device is doing "levels-wise" to get the most out of patterns like these. Just FYI.

Hello ADU, the displays are always showing pictures from USB at Data Level (0-255), so your TV correctly displayed the levels.

These pictures are only samples, If you load the MKV or MP4 of the same pattern from your USB, it will be displayed at Video (TV Legal Range), the same will happen when you will load these patterns from your blu-ray player, the levels will be displayed correctly.

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post #6680 of 7068 Old 03-19-2014, 01:26 AM
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Hello ADU, the displays are always showing pictures from USB at Data Level (0-255), so your TV correctly displayed the levels.

These pictures are only samples, If you load the MKV or MP4 of the same pattern from your USB, it will be displayed at Video (TV Legal Range), the same will happen when you will load these patterns from your blu-ray player, the levels will be displayed correctly.

 

Fair enough. I'm just warning folks that if they're using stills to try to calibrate the video levels on their TV that the results may be unpredictable unless they know exactly what their equipment is doing with the still files. There are plenty of good tools out there that can be used for basic levels adjustment with good results. And I try to keep a couple different calibration discs on hand so I can cross-check my results and verify that things are working correctly.


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post #6681 of 7068 Old 03-19-2014, 01:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Hello ADU, the displays are always showing pictures from USB at Data Level (0-255), so your TV correctly displayed the levels.

These pictures are only samples, If you load the MKV or MP4 of the same pattern from your USB, it will be displayed at Video (TV Legal Range), the same will happen when you will load these patterns from your blu-ray player, the levels will be displayed correctly.

Fair enough. I'm just warning folks that if they're using stills to try to calibrate the video levels on their TV that the results may be unpredictable unless they know exactly what they and their equipment is doing with the still files. There are plenty of good tools out there that can be used for basic levels adjustment with good results. And I try to keep a couple different calibration discs on hand so I can cross-check my results and verify that things are working correctly.

We can say that using a calibration disk you are preparing the display before using meter/software, but for users without that equipment, with a calibration disk they can set:

Brightness Pattern to set the Black Level (Brightness Control) of the Display; to prevent crushing of shadow details or raised black levels.

Contrast Pattern to set the White Level (Contrast Control) of the Display; to prevent color detail clipping up to peak white levels and above reference white level color shifts/discoloration.

Use Sharpness Pattern to prevent edge enhancement (halo/ringing effect) or soft contouring (blurring of the image details).

Use Color Clipping Pattern to prevent clipping of each color channel.

Since you don't currenty have a meter/software you can use Grayscale Ramp to check which color temperature mode (normal/warm1/warm2 etc) of your display looks more neutral to your eyes. (It's guessing by the user selection).

But you can't set your peak light output, pefrorm RGB Balance of your grayscale, calibrate your Primary/Secondary Colors (Hue/Saturation/Lightness), fix your gamma levels etc. for REC.709 without a meter/software and knowledge on how things work.

If the disk you will use have Colour Reproduction Patterns you can check your display's controls / various mode settings / enhancements of your display, if they introducing problems or if they are broken and you have to leave them untouched to prevent new problems. (no smooth color graduations, distortions, discoloration, clipping, banding, posterization, crushed shadow details, raised black levels etc.)

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post #6682 of 7068 Old 03-19-2014, 08:04 AM
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Kero, energy saving is turned off by default

Really? If so, then I have no idea how mine ended up in the "Saving" option.

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post #6683 of 7068 Old 03-20-2014, 06:52 AM
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Yes they're "toys essentially". Now you're trying to put words in my mouth? Did I ever say the wii looks kiddy? No I didn't buddy. Like I'm going to belive you have every major consule plus a "gaming PC". Get over YOURSELF. Trying to make up more stories now? "I play every single genre on every single console, and that's what a real gamer does." LMAO yeah, okay buds. You're funny. I thought you were trying to play your wii? If I had "every single console" I defiantly wouldn't be playing on wii. I'm a little nintendo hater? Well, f*** wii and wii only!! You seem a little mad, bro. haha Get lost

 

/done

You said you were done last time as well. What makes or does not make a gamer is defined by what you ENJOY as a gamer. 

 

Now, would you kindly move the **** on and let everyone else continue with their discussions? 

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post #6684 of 7068 Old 03-20-2014, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeroKeroCola View Post
 

You said you were done last time as well. What makes or does not make a gamer is defined by what you ENJOY as a gamer. 

 

Now, would you kindly move the **** on and let everyone else continue with their discussions? 

 

Of coarse sir. 

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post #6685 of 7068 Old 03-20-2014, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by oechikr View Post

Of coarse sir. 

Course*

Correct spelling and grammar will help you in your future trolling efforts.

Cheers.
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post #6686 of 7068 Old 03-20-2014, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeroKeroCola View Post

Thanks, I'd appreciate that. I'm thinking of getting the Disney WOW disc as well, seeing as how many people do recommend it.

Here are my settings. My set is well broken in as I bought the display model.

Input HDMI 1 for Blu Ray

Cinema
Contrast 85
Bright +2
Color 50
Tint-2
Sharpness 0
Warm2
Cats-OFF
VideoNR-OFF
Mpeg -OFF
Panel MID
Gamma is at 2.4
No detail adjustments
3:2 Auto
Black Level-Light
1080p pixel OFF
Overscan OFF
Size1

Now for Gaming on AV/Component

Cinema
Contrast 85
Bright +9
Color 50
Tint-0
Warm1
Sharpness-20
Cats-OFF
VideoNR-OFF
Mpeg -OFF
Panel MID
Gamma is at 2.4
No detail adjustments
3:2 Auto
Black Level-Light
1080p pixel OFF
Overscan OFF
Size1

So there ya go. Settings were made with the Disney WOW disc for Blu Ray on HDMI 1 then I copied that to the game input (component) and just tweaked it from there to raise the brightness and switch to warm1 for color.
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post #6687 of 7068 Old 03-20-2014, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MilkManX View Post


Here are my settings. My set is well broken in as I bought the display model.

Input HDMI 1 for Blu Ray

Cinema
Contrast 85
Bright +2
Color 50
Tint-2
Sharpness 0
Warm2
Cats-OFF
VideoNR-OFF
Mpeg -OFF
Panel MID
Gamma is at 2.4
No detail adjustments
3:2 Auto
Black Level-Light
1080p pixel OFF
Overscan OFF
Size1

Now for Gaming on AV/Component

Cinema
Contrast 85
Bright +9
Color 50
Tint-0
Warm1
Sharpness-20
Cats-OFF
VideoNR-OFF
Mpeg -OFF
Panel MID
Gamma is at 2.4
No detail adjustments
3:2 Auto
Black Level-Light
1080p pixel OFF
Overscan OFF
Size1

So there ya go. Settings were made with the Disney WOW disc for Blu Ray on HDMI 1 then I copied that to the game input (component) and just tweaked it from there to raise the brightness and switch to warm1 for color.

I'll try these when I get home tonight. I just ordered the WOW disc myself, I'll see if that makes any difference as well.

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post #6688 of 7068 Old 03-20-2014, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MilkManX View Post

Here are my settings. My set is well broken in as I bought the display model.

Input HDMI 1 for Blu Ray

Cinema
Contrast 85
Bright +2
Color 50
Tint-2
Sharpness 0
Warm2
Cats-OFF
VideoNR-OFF
Mpeg -OFF
Panel MID
Gamma is at 2.4
No detail adjustments
3:2 Auto
Black Level-Light
1080p pixel OFF
Overscan OFF
Size1

So there ya go. Settings were made with the Disney WOW disc for Blu Ray on HDMI 1 then I copied that to the game input (component) and just tweaked it from there to raise the brightness and switch to warm1 for color.

Those seem very similar to what most of the general calibration settings have been with the exception of Brightness and Tint. For me, Brightness above 0 introduces dithering, so I don't go above that.
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post #6689 of 7068 Old 03-20-2014, 11:32 AM
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With my U-verse receiver, I noticed that the S60/4 will use Non-standard for the "HDMI/DVI RGB range" setting if I leave it on Auto. For my PS3 and BD player it uses Standard. And comparing Standard versus Non-standard with U-verse, I noticed that on Standard blacks are crushed. Initially I had left these set to Auto, but at some point while entering in calibrations I saw posted in the thread I changed them to Standard since that is preferable for video sources. While watching several primetime shows recently I thought the picture looked too dark. So while watching Cosmos on the DVR last night I did some experimenting with the setting and it was clear that for U-verse, it is better set to Auto or Non-standard. There don't seem to be any settings on the receiver to switch the color profile.
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post #6690 of 7068 Old 03-20-2014, 04:02 PM
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I have heard that the manufacturer's warranty is extended by an extra year if purchased with certain credit cards. Does anybody know the validity of this or which credit cards are eligible for this extra year of warranty? How can I find out exactly if I am eligible for this, by calling Panasonic or the card company? Thanks for any help.
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