Official Panasonic S60 Series Discussion Thread - Page 229 - AVS Forum
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post #6841 of 7068 Old 04-29-2014, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

I've been running some of the ones from this guy http://www.screenburnfixer.com/, https://www.youtube.com/user/ScreenBurnFixer seem like a reasonable design. How's the pixel flipper on WOW?

I have not had to personally use the pixel flipper but have heard people report image retention fixes with it.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1287103/consumer-level-disney-world-of-wonder-wow-vs-dve-blu-ray
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post #6842 of 7068 Old 04-29-2014, 04:44 PM
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Ok, ask and you shall receive biggrin.gif

Line bleeding : horizontal lines running across the screen. It's very easy to see if you go to Twitter website and see horizontal lines inside boxes. The lines will not stay in the box and instead will go across the whole screen. Not really a big issue as it's not really common to see, and certainly I'll take line bleeding/banding on my plasma over real bandings on LCDs.

ABL : Automatic Brightness Limiter : Plasmas light up each pixels, hence more power use than the typical LED LCDs. They only have a specified brightness available and distribute it evenly. But when trying to display scenes predominantly white, it will lose steam and lose brightness. You will easily see it with your eyes, as this TV is on a severe side when it comes to ABL.

Phosphor trailing : Plasma phosphors have different speeds depending on color. Historically, green phosphor used to be the slowest and it took some time for them to truly disappear from a pixel, hence "phosphor lag" or "phosphor trailing". It's not really like motion blur on LCDs because plasma phosphors really are faster and more responsive, they just take some time to clean up. biggrin.gif That's why phosphor trailing is very color dependant. I found the trailing the worst with Morrowind, but fine on many other games.

30hz judder : plasmas are 60hz native displays. They can accept 24hz and show it in 48hz,72hz,96hz, etc, but 60hz is common with games. Unfortunately, whenever plasmas receive framerates that's not 60hz, they will have two images which is called judder. This is very common with console games. CRTs and LCDs have it too btw.

Good stuff here, thanks. While running screen wipes I found some examples that make ABL and phosphor trailing really obvious if anyone's interested.

ABL: In the video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAtNQntfXow The whole screen goes white then black sweeps across the screen. At some point the white gets small enough to really light up. Assume the ABL limiter is on making the whole white screen pretty week, and when the section gets small enough the limiter turns off and the white section gets much brighter. I'm in torch mode (vivid, brightness turned up, high panel brightness, etc) trying to fix IR so the effect may be amplified for these settings.

Phosphor trailing: In the video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39HUG7QrQi8 Red Green and blue bars sweep across the screen. The edges are not super defined for any of the colors, but clearly the trailing edge of the green bar is more blurred than the other colors.

I'm watching the 16:9 variants via the TV's built in you tube app.
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post #6843 of 7068 Old 04-30-2014, 09:23 AM
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Before I had this p50s60 I had an older p42c2. The p42c2 had bad phosphor lag. Have not been able to see it much at all on this set in comparison. Now I do see the line bleed though.
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post #6844 of 7068 Old 05-01-2014, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by nrc2112 View Post



Are you kidding him?



These sets are no longer available or in production. They have the best picture quality.



I had mine posted on clist and was offered 2000.00 for a 50 inch s60



I turned it down. These sets are going up in value.

 


Seriously?

I may just try to sell my S64. I bet no one in my city would care though...

"They have the best picture quality"

Really? The S60 may have phenomenal black levels and wonderful color. but it's far from the best in terms of brightness, pop and motion(Sub-par by plasma standards)
I'll finally be getting rid of my 60" in about a week. going for a full array 50" LED instead. :P

And it's mind boggling, my cousins Panasonic G10 looks great compared to my S60. That set seems to be very bright and full of pop....sure it doesn't have the deepest blacks, and the motion seems slightly worse than the S60. But dang, it's got it beat in brightness.
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post #6845 of 7068 Old 05-01-2014, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

"They have the best picture quality"

Really? The S60 may have phenomenal black levels and wonderful color. but it's far from the best in terms of brightness, pop and motion(Sub-par by plasma standards)
I'll finally be getting rid of my 60" in about a week. going for a full array 50" LED instead. :P

And it's mind boggling, my cousins Panasonic G10 looks great compared to my S60. That set seems to be very bright and full of pop....sure it doesn't have the deepest blacks, and the motion seems slightly worse than the S60. But dang, it's got it beat in brightness.

It is one of the best as long as I avoid playing Nintendo games. biggrin.gif
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post #6846 of 7068 Old 05-01-2014, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

"They have the best picture quality"

Really? The S60 may have phenomenal black levels and wonderful color. but it's far from the best in terms of brightness, pop and motion(Sub-par by plasma standards)
I'll finally be getting rid of my 60" in about a week. going for a full array 50" LED instead. :P

And it's mind boggling, my cousins Panasonic G10 looks great compared to my S60. That set seems to be very bright and full of pop....sure it doesn't have the deepest blacks, and the motion seems slightly worse than the S60. But dang, it's got it beat in brightness.

Yeah, the only way I get any "pop" out of my 60ST60 is to ramp up the AGC, but that also leads to some sort of luminance or chroma boost on people's faces. Just curious, do you mind sharing which LED you are going with? I did look at the new Vizio E series, but they seem to display scan lines on along sharp contrast edges on the screen.

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post #6847 of 7068 Old 05-01-2014, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by mtrot View Post

Yeah, the only way I get any "pop" out of my 60ST60 is to ramp up the AGC, but that also leads to some sort of luminance or chroma boost on people's faces. Just curious, do you mind sharing which LED you are going with? I did look at the new Vizio E series, but they seem to display scan lines on along sharp contrast edges on the screen.

For me, getting that pop means raising the BE. I had both AGC & BE set to 7 for a while, far better than leaving both off and putting up with semi-lifeless dull and flat image. But it comes with it's share of disadvantages, including the two that you pointed out. And yes, I plan on going with the 2014 FALD Vizio E series. Sure the viewing angles, black levels and motion won't be quite as good as the S60's, but at least i'll get a super bright image, CRT-like pop, white whites(S60's are dirty), no ABL, no IR and a crisper/cleaner sharper image(more noticeable for gaming). Slight blooming may be an issue too, but I just don't care anymore.

The S60 just isn't for me and the only plasma that i'd make due with is the 8500, but it's crazy steep price tag and PQ disabling 'game mode' to get low input lag are both a deal breaker. The only other FALD aside from the rest of vizio's LED line up seems to be that 4k Panasonic LED......But I'm not waiting until it eventually gets released, plus I don't want or need 4k, not to mention the price tag will be absurd.

I planned on going for the Vizio 1080p 'm' series, but it wont be arriving until Summer.....So 'E' it tis'tongue.gif
I also want to go smaller in size, my current 60" S60 over powers my living room sitting at almost 11 feet away eye distance wise from my couch. It's just too much, and 720p gaming content looks lousy on it. At 11-10 feet away from my new 50", 720p video games will look fantastic. 10 feet is optimal distance for 720p content on a 50", and i'll be sitting under 11.

anyways, I guess you're clinging onto that ST60 until the 'right' FALD LED comes along me guesses', or if the 8500 drops down in price.biggrin.gif
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post #6848 of 7068 Old 05-01-2014, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by KOF View Post

It is one of the best as long as I avoid playing Nintendo games. biggrin.gif

Meh.lol even those darker titles like Resident Evil: Revelations for ex look flat, dull and unimpressive unless you're tinkering with the AGC & BE. even then, you're getting a new set of picture problems, it's a matter of picking your poisin I guess. I'm glad I held off unboxing my wii u, because i'd cry if I had to play it on the S60. :P different strokes.
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post #6849 of 7068 Old 05-01-2014, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

"They have the best picture quality"

Really? The S60 may have phenomenal black levels and wonderful color. but it's far from the best in terms of brightness, pop and motion(Sub-par by plasma standards)
I'll finally be getting rid of my 60" in about a week. going for a full array 50" LED instead. :P

And it's mind boggling, my cousins Panasonic G10 looks great compared to my S60. That set seems to be very bright and full of pop....sure it doesn't have the deepest blacks, and the motion seems slightly worse than the S60. But dang, it's got it beat in brightness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

For me, getting that pop means raising the BE. I had both AGC & BE set to 7 for a while, far better than leaving both off and putting up with semi-lifeless dull and flat image. But it comes with it's share of disadvantages, including the two that you pointed out. And yes, I plan on going with the 2014 FALD Vizio E series. Sure the viewing angles, black levels and motion won't be quite as good as the S60's, but at least i'll get a super bright image, CRT-like pop, white whites(S60's are dirty), no ABL, no IR and a crisper/cleaner sharper image(more noticeable for gaming). Slight blooming may be an issue too, but I just don't care anymore.

The S60 just isn't for me and the only plasma that i'd make due with is the 8500, but it's crazy steep price tag and PQ disabling 'game mode' to get low input lag are both a deal breaker. The only other FALD aside from the rest of vizio's LED line up seems to be that 4k Panasonic LED......But I'm not waiting until it eventually gets released, plus I don't want or need 4k, not to mention the price tag will be absurd.

I planned on going for the Vizio 1080p 'm' series, but it wont be arriving until Summer.....So 'E' it tis'tongue.gif
I also want to go smaller in size, my current 60" S60 over powers my living room sitting at almost 11 feet away eye distance wise from my couch. It's just too much, and 720p gaming content looks lousy on it. At 11-10 feet away from my new 50", 720p video games will look fantastic. 10 feet is optimal distance for 720p content on a 50", and i'll be sitting under 11.

anyways, I guess you're clinging onto that ST60 until the 'right' FALD LED comes along me guesses', or if the 8500 drops down in price.biggrin.gif

eek.gif


Can't wait till you get rid of your S60! Now you won't need to troll this thread. Enjoy your new Vizio LCD!



Bye Bye!



Ian wink.gif

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post #6850 of 7068 Old 05-01-2014, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

For me, getting that pop means raising the BE. I had both AGC & BE set to 7 for a while, far better than leaving both off and putting up with semi-lifeless dull and flat image. But it comes with it's share of disadvantages, including the two that you pointed out. And yes, I plan on going with the 2014 FALD Vizio E series. Sure the viewing angles, black levels and motion won't be quite as good as the S60's, but at least i'll get a super bright image, CRT-like pop, white whites(S60's are dirty), no ABL, no IR and a crisper/cleaner sharper image(more noticeable for gaming). Slight blooming may be an issue too, but I just don't care anymore.

The S60 just isn't for me and the only plasma that i'd make due with is the 8500, but it's crazy steep price tag and PQ disabling 'game mode' to get low input lag are both a deal breaker. The only other FALD aside from the rest of vizio's LED line up seems to be that 4k Panasonic LED......But I'm not waiting until it eventually gets released, plus I don't want or need 4k, not to mention the price tag will be absurd.

I planned on going for the Vizio 1080p 'm' series, but it wont be arriving until Summer.....So 'E' it tis'tongue.gif
I also want to go smaller in size, my current 60" S60 over powers my living room sitting at almost 11 feet away eye distance wise from my couch. It's just too much, and 720p gaming content looks lousy on it. At 11-10 feet away from my new 50", 720p video games will look fantastic. 10 feet is optimal distance for 720p content on a 50", and i'll be sitting under 11.

anyways, I guess you're clinging onto that ST60 until the 'right' FALD LED comes along me guesses', or if the 8500 drops down in price.biggrin.gif

Yes, I've been researching LEDs for a while now. But I'm not in any big hurry to get rid of the ST60, as I do like the picture, overall. I just wish I could get a brighter, more contrasty image out of it, so I may play around some more with the BE as you mentioned. The only reason I was averse to the BE is that I was afraid of "crushing" the blacks and darks. I can't stand to lose shadow detail.

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post #6851 of 7068 Old 05-02-2014, 03:21 AM
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Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

Meh.lol even those darker titles like Resident Evil: Revelations for ex look flat, dull and unimpressive unless you're tinkering with the AGC & BE. even then, you're getting a new set of picture problems, it's a matter of picking your poisin I guess. I'm glad I held off unboxing my wii u, because i'd cry if I had to play it on the S60. :P different strokes.

Hell no. Resident Evil Revelations is one of rare cases I've actually reduced AGC to zero because the contrast was oozling with pop and I wanted to enjoy it even more. (AGC hurts black level after all) So, no. For games like RE : Revelations, I have absolutely no complaints with brightness AND ABL. (because it's not kicking in) If all games I play looked like RE Revelations, I wouldn't even save for the F8500. Unless...you actually like playing bright even for the REs and I think it's very wrong for a horror game to be played like that.

And are you absolutely sure the Vizio has MORE picture control options than the Samsung's in their respective game/PC modes? I highly doubt it. In any case, have a serious look at the Samsung H6400 as well. I hear it destroys the Vizio in motion performance without resorting to soap opera crap. Its BFI solution is superior to Sony's Motionflow Impulse in that it doesn't suffer from flickers and heavy brightness drop. (120 cd/m2 is still respectable)
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post #6852 of 7068 Old 05-02-2014, 01:03 PM
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Hell no. Resident Evil Revelations is one of rare cases I've actually reduced AGC to zero because the contrast was oozling with pop and I wanted to enjoy it even more. (AGC hurts black level after all) So, no. For games like RE : Revelations, I have absolutely no complaints with brightness AND ABL. (because it's not kicking in) If all games I play looked like RE Revelations, I wouldn't even save for the F8500. Unless...you actually like playing bright even for the REs and I think it's very wrong for a horror game to be played like that.

And are you absolutely sure the Vizio has MORE picture control options than the Samsung's in their respective game/PC modes? I highly doubt it. In any case, have a serious look at the Samsung H6400 as well. I hear it destroys the Vizio in motion performance without resorting to soap opera crap. Its BFI solution is superior to Sony's Motionflow Impulse in that it doesn't suffer from flickers and heavy brightness drop. (120 cd/m2 is still respectable)

Seeing as how I play bright and colorful games 95% of the time, the S60 just wont cut it. Also you should be raising the black extension when raising the AGC to compensate for the lighter blacks, otherwise just raising the AGC alone will make the picture look ligh, washed with even less sculpt... AGC at 7 and BE to 5-6 looks best imo. Either way, it's all just one big mess that I don't care to tinker with anymore. I shouldn't have to. I will take the shortcomings of this new vizio and embrace the positives.tongue.gif:cool: BTW, i'm a huge RE fan and revelations was a complete and utter mixed bag imo. I finished it on the 3DS, and won't be going through it a 2nd time on the Wii U. the demo was enough for me. The mindless shoot out episodic filler bogs down the experience big time. The core ship gameplay is solid, but you have to put up with a lot of crap just to get to it. Final boss battle is still one of the best in the series however. And yeah, i'll check out the H6400 and see what the fuss is about.....It's just, I don't want an edge lit display. Plus, the Vizio E in custom mode has 28ms of input lag.

edit: The 6400 has 40ms of input lag. yup, no thanks. lol
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post #6853 of 7068 Old 05-02-2014, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by mtrot View Post

Yes, I've been researching LEDs for a while now. But I'm not in any big hurry to get rid of the ST60, as I do like the picture, overall. I just wish I could get a brighter, more contrasty image out of it, so I may play around some more with the BE as you mentioned. The only reason I was averse to the BE is that I was afraid of "crushing" the blacks and darks. I can't stand to lose shadow detail.

Oh you will be crushing blacks when dipping over 5. but honestly, the S60 without ANY BE has lighter shading in clothing, grooves, shadow detail, the works than the norm. It's a little unnatural and delivers an oddly flat dull image because of it 'regardless' of it's less than stellar dim picture. It's like panny integrated their cinema(S30) setting into custom with more PQ tweaking(Gamma, Advance Pro controls ect)
I don't like the look of it as it doesn't look true to life compared to what i'm used to. That's just me and I know many on here couldn't care less as they seem very happy with their s60 and that's great and all. But again it's just not for me. Try setting AGC to 4-7 and raise BE 6-7....You'll get the pop that you'll want, and obviously a brighter image with some other downsides mind you, but it looks more pleasing to the eyes than having them both set to off IMO.

Coraline came to life with AGC set to 7 and BE set to 6-7. a tiny bit of black crushing and darkening of hair(for ex).
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post #6854 of 7068 Old 05-02-2014, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

"They have the best picture quality"

Really? The S60 may have phenomenal black levels and wonderful color. but it's far from the best in terms of brightness, pop and motion(Sub-par by plasma standards)
I'll finally be getting rid of my 60" in about a week. going for a full array 50" LED instead. :P

And it's mind boggling, my cousins Panasonic G10 looks great compared to my S60. That set seems to be very bright and full of pop....sure it doesn't have the deepest blacks, and the motion seems slightly worse than the S60. But dang, it's got it beat in brightness.

Aww, it will be so sad to see you go from here, sob (as in sob-sad)
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post #6855 of 7068 Old 05-02-2014, 01:22 PM
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Aww, it will be so sad to see you go from here, sob (as in sob-sad)

What is with people taking offense if somebody starts pointing out the flaws to their beloved 'new' TV. It's just a tv for crying out loud. can't you just enjoy my never ending broken record chit chatty negative hate train of bull sh**? ya love it! wink.gif I will gladly sell my 60" S60 for 1 million koopa coins, any takers? zoink!
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post #6856 of 7068 Old 05-02-2014, 04:19 PM
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What is with people taking offense if somebody starts pointing out the flaws to their beloved 'new' TV. It's just a tv for crying out loud. can't you just enjoy my never ending broken record chit chatty negative hate train of bull sh**? ya love it! wink.gif I will gladly sell my 60" S60 for 1 million koopa coins, any takers? zoink!

You have a right to express your opinion when it comes to certain problems you have with this TV, especially when you're looking for input to help you address those issues. However, when you continue to berate the PQ of the S60, using adjectives such as lifeless, dull, flat and sub par by plasma standards, on a S60 plasma thread, IMO, it borders on trolling. If you plan to continue to air your opinion of the S60 (which BTW has been reviewed by certified professionals and many members on this forum, as an excellent set) and you sincerely believe that a quality LCD is better suited for your needs, your opinion would probably be better served by posting it on either the LCD or flat panel general and OLED technology threads.


Ian wink.gif
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post #6857 of 7068 Old 05-02-2014, 04:53 PM
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I think he's right though, the picture does look flat compared to my old Sony LED which I returned for this. And it has a whole host of problems that I regret having to deal with. I don't enjoy using this TV because I too use it almost exclusively for gaming, and I miss my LED for that, I notice all the line bleeding and ABL and dirty whites and IR and dithering. I don't like it, it's depressing.

Also now my PS4 (and PS3) flickers if "deep color" is enabled, and no matter what the black text on webpages on PS4 are blue instead of black.
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post #6858 of 7068 Old 05-02-2014, 08:46 PM
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I think he's right though, the picture does look flat compared to my old Sony LED which I returned for this. And it has a whole host of problems that I regret having to deal with. I don't enjoy using this TV because I too use it almost exclusively for gaming, and I miss my LED for that, I notice all the line bleeding and ABL and dirty whites and IR and dithering. I don't like it, it's depressing.

Also now my PS4 (and PS3) flickers if "deep color" is enabled, and no matter what the black text on webpages on PS4 are blue instead of black.

I have to respectfully disagree. I have yet to see an LCD including my Toshiba that has the depth and clarity of a PDP and most of the reviews I've read tend to agree with me. I've never see any noticeable line bleeding or ABL on either of my Panasonic plasmas, but I don't game, have calibrated my sets in the Cinema mode and my media room has controlled lighting. Plasmas are not for everybody and if you feel your set doesn't meet your needs, then I suggest you place it on Criag's list, hopefully sell it, and find a suitable LCD. You shouldn't have to be stuck with a set your not happy with.


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post #6859 of 7068 Old 05-02-2014, 11:28 PM
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If you hook the TV up to a computer as I do, line-bleed is pretty intense and ABL kicks in when you move a window over to the screen. It goes from bright to darker, and the colors change as a result. And posterization is unmistakable, even compared to my Wii U GamePad which is a cheap LCD screen. I think the ST60 doesn't have this problem though.

Unfortunately... even if I do sell it, the 2014 LEDs are terrible. So I'd have to be lucky and find a good 2013 one and there's hardly any good stores around here.
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post #6860 of 7068 Old 05-03-2014, 03:14 AM
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You have a right to express your opinion when it comes to certain problems you have with this TV, especially when you're looking for input to help you address those issues. However, when you continue to berate the PQ of the S60, using adjectives such as lifeless, dull, flat and sub par by plasma standards, on a S60 plasma thread, IMO, it borders on trolling. If you plan to continue to air your opinion of the S60 (which BTW has been reviewed by certified professionals and many members on this forum, as an excellent set) and you sincerely believe that a quality LCD is better suited for your needs, your opinion would probably be better served by posting it on either the LCD or flat panel general and OLED technology threads.


Ian wink.gif

The real issue with Waveboy's comments is that he has posted the same complaints numerous times in this thread to that point that it has become irritating and pointless. He has offered up some suggestions for those who share his sentiments about the S60, and that's valuable to some members. However, for many of us, to hear these complaints repeated over and over with little or no variance, is redundant and benefitting no one except Waveboy who obviously would have been better off with an LCD for his gaming rig.

(Ian, you already know this, but for those who don't...) His needs are somewhat different than a lot of TV owners because of his gaming preferences for older games, as well as new ones. He picked up the S60 because although he knew the ST60 and other TVs in the Panasonic plasma lineup had better PQ, the S60 offered lower input lag, which is important. Yet, he's still unsatisfied with the S60's lag and other "faults". See, I pulled that out of the air after hearing him rant on this forum for months. Sony LCDs are some of the best TVs for gamers because they offer some of the lowest input lag and have excellent PQ (for an LCD), but you're typically going to pay more to get one than you would for a comparable S60, although that point is moot now. And the XBR900 or 950 or whatever it is only comes in 55", but that may be perfect for him anyway. Each technology has its pros and cons and Waveboy seems knowledgeable about them, so he should have been able to make a more informed decision before picking up the S60 in the first place.

As for brightness, the S60 (I actually have the S64) is not a problem for me. It is better than my first plasma. I have patio doors and two standard sized windows opposite the TV and one standard window off to the side of the TV. Unless day is really bright and the picture is a nighttime scene, I have absolutely no issues seeing what is on the TV and reflections do not bother me. If they do, I can close one or two shades/curtains and it's fine. The S60 has no anti-reflective filter. It belongs in a light-controlled environment. I thought he had put his in a light-controlled basement, which should have diminished the need for a bright display. I enjoy my S64 at all times of the day and night in Cinema and it looks great. He should be content with his set and he's obviously not satisfied as a plasma owner, so I wish him well with his quest to find a competent LCD for his needs.
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post #6861 of 7068 Old 05-03-2014, 08:27 AM
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If you hook the TV up to a computer as I do, line-bleed is pretty intense and ABL kicks in when you move a window over to the screen. It goes from bright to darker, and the colors change as a result. And posterization is unmistakable, even compared to my Wii U GamePad which is a cheap LCD screen. I think the ST60 doesn't have this problem though.

Unfortunately... even if I do sell it, the 2014 LEDs are terrible. So I'd have to be lucky and find a good 2013 one and there's hardly any good stores around here.

Since I don't use my set as a computer monitor, I can not comment on the issues you are having. That being said, you may want to consider a Sony, since their LCD's have been well received.

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The real issue with Waveboy's comments is that he has posted the same complaints numerous times in this thread to that point that it has become irritating and pointless. He has offered up some suggestions for those who share his sentiments about the S60, and that's valuable to some members. However, for many of us, to hear these complaints repeated over and over with little or no variance, is redundant and benefitting no one except Waveboy who obviously would have been better off with an LCD for his gaming rig.

(Ian, you already know this, but for those who don't...) His needs are somewhat different than a lot of TV owners because of his gaming preferences for older games, as well as new ones. He picked up the S60 because although he knew the ST60 and other TVs in the Panasonic plasma lineup had better PQ, the S60 offered lower input lag, which is important. Yet, he's still unsatisfied with the S60's lag and other "faults". See, I pulled that out of the air after hearing him rant on this forum for months. Sony LCDs are some of the best TVs for gamers because they offer some of the lowest input lag and have excellent PQ (for an LCD), but you're typically going to pay more to get one than you would for a comparable S60, although that point is moot now. And the XBR900 or 950 or whatever it is only comes in 55", but that may be perfect for him anyway. Each technology has its pros and cons and Waveboy seems knowledgeable about them, so he should have been able to make a more informed decision before picking up the S60 in the first place.

As for brightness, the S60 (I actually have the S64) is not a problem for me. It is better than my first plasma. I have patio doors and two standard sized windows opposite the TV and one standard window off to the side of the TV. Unless day is really bright and the picture is a nighttime scene, I have absolutely no issues seeing what is on the TV and reflections do not bother me. If they do, I can close one or two shades/curtains and it's fine. The S60 has no anti-reflective filter. It belongs in a light-controlled environment. I thought he had put his in a light-controlled basement, which should have diminished the need for a bright display. I enjoy my S64 at all times of the day and night in Cinema and it looks great. He should be content with his set and he's obviously not satisfied as a plasma owner, so I wish him well with his quest to find a competent LCD for his needs.


It's obvious that we are on the same page when it comes to this topic. I have an LCD in my bedroom and I'm very happy with it, but it can't compete with the over all PQ of my S60. Several times I have suggested to Waveboy that he would be better off with an LCD, but as you posted, a quality one isn't going to be cheap. I'm glad he found one that meets his needs.


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post #6862 of 7068 Old 05-04-2014, 06:32 PM
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This is a TV set. Sure you can hook up to a gaming system or HTPC like I do for some light gaming (old games, need for speed, descent ect) but to criticize it incessantly as a gaming display is way off base and appears and sounds like pimple faced teen gamer boy trolling to me.
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post #6863 of 7068 Old 05-04-2014, 08:03 PM
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Now that's a real troll material. Console games industry is over 4 decades and what did the majority of users have used as a display so far? Yep, a TV. It's amusing to witness arrogance stemming from movie buffs who think their entertainment is somehow more mature than the others.
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post #6864 of 7068 Old 05-04-2014, 09:25 PM
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Now that's a real troll material. Console games industry is over 4 decades and what did the majority of users have used as a display so far? Yep, a TV. It's amusing to witness arrogance stemming from movie buffs who think their entertainment is somehow more mature than the others.

The problem with flat panel TV's is the foundation from which their designs were originally conceived. Plasmas were geared for Television which displays broadcasts, film and mostly moving content. LCD's were created for computer monitors which are geared for displaying mostly static content. TV's scale, computer monitors don't. TV's are fairly large, computer monitors are usually small and don't require wide viewing angles, or perfect brightness uniformity. Gaming consoles come from technologies that were originally served by CRT's, which have recently become obsolete. There is no such thing as the perfect TV, but how we use it for a specific type of entertainment is governed by it's compatibility with these technologies, and has nothing to do with ones tastes or maturity.


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post #6865 of 7068 Old 05-04-2014, 10:36 PM
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The problem with flat panel TV's is the foundation from which their designs were originally conceived. Plasmas were geared for Television which displays broadcasts, film and mostly moving content. LCD's were created for computer monitors which are geared for displaying mostly static content. TV's scale, computer monitors don't. TV's are fairly large, computer monitors are usually small and don't require wide viewing angles, or perfect brightness uniformity. Gaming consoles come from technologies that were originally served by CRT's, which have recently become obsolete. There is no such thing as the perfect TV, but how we use it for a specific type of entertainment is governed by it's compatibility with these technologies, and has nothing to do with ones tastes or maturity.


Ian

There is a difference between content compatibility and allowed contents. I understand what you're trying to insinuated, but that doesn't mean certain genre of contents should not be used with said displays even with displays.

For many years, I've heard BS like "Plasmas have burn-in, therefore you should not play any games on it" even from some plasma owners. I even encountered some rude people who tried to dissuade me from buying plasmas for gaming purpose. I ignored them and bought plasmas anyhow. No complaints whatsoever with IR so what's the big deal? Even back in the early 2000s when burn-in was more common, it wasn't too bad as long as care was excercised. I know tons of people who bought old Pioneer plasmas for gaming and never suffer.

How about "Plasmas should never be used as a PC monitor." mentality that seem to grip so many of those ignorant consumers? I use my Panasonic S64 as one and no problems whatsoever again.

Why should somebody else dictate what MY display should be used for? It's not the early days of flat panels any more. Utility-wise, there is no difference between LCDs and plasmas. While games get a short end of the stick compared to other mediums by flat panels manufacturers, that doesn't change the fact millions of people game on one. If vast majority of those gamers have no problems with LCDs with inferior motion resolution, it doesn't matter whether a certain display is more catered to other media.

Criticisms or discussions on this display on gaming performance is perfectly valid. Panasonic has never come out and outright said "Use this only with movies and broadcasts", so wtf should somebody else take issues if we play games on this display?
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post #6866 of 7068 Old 05-05-2014, 06:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Criticisms or discussions on this display on gaming performance is perfectly valid. Panasonic has never come out and outright said "Use this only with movies and broadcasts", so wtf should somebody else take issues if we play games on this display?

Panasonic doesn't market their TVs to the gamer community. A few years ago in response to complaints, the Panasonic Insider over at HDJ said that their extensive data shows the gamer market is not choosing Plasma, and gamers are moving to LCD and PC.

Gaming performance has never really been an important category on Panasonic Plasmas, they're more about picture quality. CRT may have happened to work well with games for the past 40 years what with their fast response times, but with the advent of flat panels that aspect of performance started to change for the worst both with PDP and LCD.


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post #6867 of 7068 Old 05-05-2014, 06:38 AM
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There is a difference between content compatibility and allowed contents. I understand what you're trying to insinuated, but that doesn't mean certain genre of contents should not be used with said displays even with displays.

For many years, I've heard BS like "Plasmas have burn-in, therefore you should not play any games on it" even from some plasma owners. I even encountered some rude people who tried to dissuade me from buying plasmas for gaming purpose. I ignored them and bought plasmas anyhow. No complaints whatsoever with IR so what's the big deal? Even back in the early 2000s when burn-in was more common, it wasn't too bad as long as care was excercised. I know tons of people who bought old Pioneer plasmas for gaming and never suffer.

How about "Plasmas should never be used as a PC monitor." mentality that seem to grip so many of those ignorant consumers? I use my Panasonic S64 as one and no problems whatsoever again.

Why should somebody else dictate what MY display should be used for? It's not the early days of flat panels any more. Utility-wise, there is no difference between LCDs and plasmas. While games get a short end of the stick compared to other mediums by flat panels manufacturers, that doesn't change the fact millions of people game on one. If vast majority of those gamers have no problems with LCDs with inferior motion resolution, it doesn't matter whether a certain display is more catered to other media.

Criticisms or discussions on this display on gaming performance is perfectly valid. Panasonic has never come out and outright said "Use this only with movies and broadcasts", so wtf should somebody else take issues if we play games on this display?

It is not about what you can and cannot do with a display, it is about what the intended use case of the display. Can you use a plasma as a computer monitor? Sure, as long as you are careful, but that is not what the display was meant for.

You can also use a pair of child's safety scissors to trim your hedge.

The simple fact is that plasma TV's are designed around video content. You can use them as a computer monitor, you can use them for games, many stores even use them as static billboards. All those other uses risk ruining your set, and that should tell you something.

All that said, I game on my s60 all the time. It is my only tv, and games look great on it.
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post #6868 of 7068 Old 05-05-2014, 07:02 AM
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Capability argument doesn't really fly as plasmas are generally mediocre for anime, but that hasn't stopped Panasonic from selling boatloads to anime watchers in Japan. biggrin.gif
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post #6869 of 7068 Old 05-05-2014, 07:06 AM
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If you hook the TV up to a computer as I do, line-bleed is pretty intense and ABL kicks in when you move a window over to the screen. It goes from bright to darker, and the colors change as a result. And posterization is unmistakable, even compared to my Wii U GamePad which is a cheap LCD screen. I think the ST60 doesn't have this problem though.

Unfortunately... even if I do sell it, the 2014 LEDs are terrible. So I'd have to be lucky and find a good 2013 one and there's hardly any good stores around here.

You must be doing something wrong, i just set-up my 50S60 a couple weeks ago, and put in the break-in settings. I have a HTPC (Radeon HD6870) and PS3 hooked up and they look amazing, I can't wait to do my calibration after 100 hrs, it will look even better. Much better picture than my 50PZ85U which didn't survive the move to our new house.
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post #6870 of 7068 Old 05-05-2014, 08:20 AM
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Capability argument doesn't really fly as plasmas are generally mediocre for anime, but that hasn't stopped Panasonic from selling boatloads to anime watchers in Japan. biggrin.gif

Really?! Animation looks great on my S64. No complaints.
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