Official Panasonic S60 Series Discussion Thread - Page 43 - AVS Forum
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post #1261 of 7282 Old 05-04-2013, 07:28 PM
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+1

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post #1262 of 7282 Old 05-04-2013, 09:47 PM
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I went into Costco today and they only have the display for sale, and still for what they were selling it for when they had some in stock. This must be catching on quick!

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post #1263 of 7282 Old 05-05-2013, 01:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Matadurr View Post


You may want to go to a store that lets you hook up a 24p blu-ray and see if 48hz bothers you before getting an S64. Supposedly most people can't stand it.

Is the 24p handling really that bad on this model with 60hz or whatever the other options are? Or setting the BluRay player to 60p? I'm a big movie buff, so this is a concern, but I had read for the most part that even the Panny models that didn't have "proper" 24p handling managed to do pretty well still. Now I'm starting to see more mention of it and wondering if it's just these new models that are having the issue? My buddy has an ST30 in the 42" size and I don't believe that has proper handling, but I haven't noticed anything too bad really. Though I haven't had the chance to do a direct AB and am also wondering if it's more an issue on a larger screen.
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post #1264 of 7282 Old 05-05-2013, 01:26 AM
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The only way to get proper 24p handling on a S60 is to set the TV to 48 Hz. You'll get flicker with this, not so bad until you get a bunch of bright outdoor scenes. Then it becomes a bit of a headache, or you can pretend your in an old school cinema that had that nice projector flicker. Be sure to have a recording of a projector wheel spinning played back on endless repeat. Otherwise, the only other option is 60 Hz, which can't play back 24p and has to use 3:2 pulldown, which kinda of remaps 24 fps to 60 Hz.

You'd have to spring for the ST60 or higher to get the better methods, like 96 Hz (best mode) or 120 Hz (okay mode) for 24p playback.
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post #1265 of 7282 Old 05-05-2013, 10:28 AM
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I did a few tests of 60Hz vs 48Hz, and my findings were this in a nutshell. 48Hz is unacceptable due to flicker, for me personally. 60Hz motion looks plenty good, as good if not better than my old ST30, and I honestly couldn't tell the difference in motion between 60Hz and 48Hz in isolated action scenes. The ONLY difference I could notice was the scrolling credits at the end of the movie were slightly smoother when in 48Hz, but I'm talking sliiiggghtly.
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post #1266 of 7282 Old 05-05-2013, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by moshock View Post

I did a few tests of 60Hz vs 48Hz, and my findings were this in a nutshell. 48Hz is unacceptable due to flicker, for me personally. 60Hz motion looks plenty good, as good if not better than my old ST30, and I honestly couldn't tell the difference in motion between 60Hz and 48Hz in isolated action scenes. The ONLY difference I could notice was the scrolling credits at the end of the movie were slightly smoother when in 48Hz, but I'm talking sliiiggghtly.

+1 though the smoothness in 48hz seems maybe a bit more significant to me.

My preference is having my PS3 do the 60hz conversion.
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post #1267 of 7282 Old 05-05-2013, 11:29 AM
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While primarily about projection TV's, I found the below linked article to be informative about 24p judder.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm
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post #1268 of 7282 Old 05-05-2013, 12:43 PM
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As for 24p playback, from CNET's review of the Samsung 8500- "Video processing: As I mentioned above, this area is the F8500's only major stumbling block. The only way to achieve the correct film cadence of 1080p/24 sources, like most Blu-ray movies, is to engage the Cinema Smooth setting under Film Mode -- which lightens black levels somewhat. When I did so, I saw the nice, smooth-but-not-too-smooth movement in areas like the swinging camera in the grocery store in "Drive" (15:30) and of course even more clearly in my traditional such test, the pan over the aircraft carrier from "I Am Legend" (24:58).

Switching back to Off, which delivers the deepest black levels, caused the cadence to assume the characteristic, slightly hitching motion of 2:3 pull-down. It's a subtle difference, but videophiles will have to choose between correct cadence and the deepest blacks. I chose the latter, for what it's worth."

In this instance, correct 24P playback, is a subtle difference (or a major stumbling block smile.gif) according to David K. And from comments here, I'm thinking this is not going to be an issue for me in considering the S60.
Is 24P content found on any sources other than Blu-Ray? Owners, can I get a consensus on how it handles gradations, how much and often are you seeing so called posterization or solarization and with what source? I'm thinking this will also be pretty much a non-issue from reading most of this thread. Although one poster found it objectionable. Thanks guys.
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post #1269 of 7282 Old 05-05-2013, 03:48 PM
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I actually prefer 60hz over 96hz on my vt50.

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post #1270 of 7282 Old 05-05-2013, 07:33 PM
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Hey guys I'm about to order the 65 inch S60, before I do I just want to verify the only difference between this model and the S64 model is the AR filter? It doesn't have a better Infinite Black panel or anything like that correct? The S60 is cheaper for me and more convenient with no tax etc so just checkin. I'll save money and lose on the AR filter that's fine.
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post #1271 of 7282 Old 05-05-2013, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamAgain2 View Post

Hey guys I'm about to order the 65 inch S60, before I do I just want to verify the only difference between this model and the S64 model is the AR filter? It doesn't have a better Infinite Black panel or anything like that correct? The S60 is cheaper for me and more convenient with no tax etc so just checkin. I'll save money and lose on the AR filter that's fine.

That's the only difference. If you are sure you can handle the reflections and/or your are in a light controlled room, then getting the S60 should be fine. The only problem comes from if you get it and find reflections are too much and washes out or what not, you have to deal with returning to an online store, which can be a pain a lot of the time. Also if you plan on moving in the near future, you can not be sure what kind of lighting you may have.

Just weigh out all of the options. The S64 65" is $1399 at SAMs and Costco, which is cheaper than I've seen the S60 anywhere online, but you do need to pay tax. I would prefer to pick up my TV locally every time over having to trust delivery people to take care of it.
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post #1272 of 7282 Old 05-05-2013, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by bamaboy1234 View Post

That's the only difference. If you are sure you can handle the reflections and/or your are in a light controlled room, then getting the S60 should be fine. The only problem comes from if you get it and find reflections are too much and washes out or what not, you have to deal with returning to an online store, which can be a pain a lot of the time. Also if you plan on moving in the near future, you can not be sure what kind of lighting you may have.

Just weigh out all of the options. The S64 65" is $1399 at SAMs and Costco, which is cheaper than I've seen the S60 anywhere online, but you do need to pay tax. I would prefer to pick up my TV locally every time over having to trust delivery people to take care of it.

But since I'm not a member at Costco or Sams that's an extra charge.. then add on tax etc. The 65s60 is $1,450 which is cheaper for me.

Thanks for the good info / suggestions though. I do live in an apartment but I'm pretty consistent in making my bedroom (which this TV is going in to) a cave with no light (i work graves) so I'm not too worried about the AR filter. I didn't factor in any sort of returns however.. what if I needed to return it to Amazon? I have no idea what that process would be like heh.
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post #1273 of 7282 Old 05-05-2013, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by DreamAgain2 View Post

But since I'm not a member at Costco or Sams that's an extra charge.. then add on tax etc. The 65s60 is $1,450 which is cheaper for me.

Thanks for the good info / suggestions though. I do live in an apartment but I'm pretty consistent in making my bedroom (which this TV is going in to) a cave with no light (i work graves) so I'm not too worried about the AR filter. I didn't factor in any sort of returns however.. what if I needed to return it to Amazon? I have no idea what that process would be like heh.
S60 is still a great TV to buy. Amazon is usually really good about returns, but I've never dealt with a large item return. Not sure if they cover return shipping for that or not.
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post #1274 of 7282 Old 05-05-2013, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aman74 View Post

Is the 24p handling really that bad on this model with 60hz or whatever the other options are? Or setting the BluRay player to 60p? I'm a big movie buff, so this is a concern, but I had read for the most part that even the Panny models that didn't have "proper" 24p handling managed to do pretty well still. Now I'm starting to see more mention of it and wondering if it's just these new models that are having the issue? My buddy has an ST30 in the 42" size and I don't believe that has proper handling, but I haven't noticed anything too bad really. Though I haven't had the chance to do a direct AB and am also wondering if it's more an issue on a larger screen.
48hz handles 24p the best on the S60. Per what others have said, the annoyance of flicker can be variable. For me, I only notice if I look for it. Even then, it has to be a very bright scene for me to even begin to catch on to it. My 42ST30 that I had did handle 24p in 60hz mode much better than the S60 does. However, if you have your blu-ray player do the pull-down (the blu-ray player feeding the TV a 3:2 60hz signal), it looks better.
The difference between motion handling of 24p + 60hz and 3:2 pulldown (blu-ray) + 60hz is relatively marginal. There is a much larger difference between when the TV is set between 48hz and 60hz, however.
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post #1275 of 7282 Old 05-05-2013, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamAgain2 View Post

But since I'm not a member at Costco or Sams that's an extra charge.. then add on tax etc. The 65s60 is $1,450 which is cheaper for me.

Thanks for the good info / suggestions though. I do live in an apartment but I'm pretty consistent in making my bedroom (which this TV is going in to) a cave with no light (i work graves) so I'm not too worried about the AR filter. I didn't factor in any sort of returns however.. what if I needed to return it to Amazon? I have no idea what that process would be like heh.

Amazon may charge you if you return a panel just for dislike. I returned my 55ST60 to them due to an intermittent fault. They were EXTREMELY nice about it - and no charge due to defect.
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post #1276 of 7282 Old 05-05-2013, 11:58 PM
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Dammit. Duplicate input. Oops.
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post #1277 of 7282 Old 05-06-2013, 02:08 AM
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Im sending my 65" S60 back due to a HMI 1 port not working. I tried everything but still doesnt work. Even after i changed the settings I wasnt even that impressed with the pq. Every time the picture pans to the side or or transitions to another scene it would get a dusty appearance.....i believe thats referred to as ghosting. It happens even with the blue, red and green cables.
Does anyone else notice any ghosting while watching HD channels?
Im now looking to get either the gt50, vt50 or vt60.......any suggestions

gt: EverydayBADGUY
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post #1278 of 7282 Old 05-06-2013, 02:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnc View Post

I actually prefer 60hz over 96hz on my vt50.

Good to know.
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post #1279 of 7282 Old 05-06-2013, 04:13 AM
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I spotted the S64 in Sam's yesterday, and damn is that a harsh way to display this television! Applying the additional AR filter over the S60 seemed like a good move because of the super harsh lighting, but they have it on a high shelf forcing one to view it at an upward angle. The louvre filter wreaks havoc on vertical viewing angles making it appear dimmer than it actually is -- and this effect is then compounded by the fact that it was sitting between two maxed-backlighted LCDs. Even in vivid mode, the S64 appeared exponentially dimmer than any other television in the row. (the Samsung plasma, however, held its own very well) One woman said to her (presumed) husband "there's something wrong with that one" as they were going down the line weighing their potential purchasing options. (they left with a Sharp)

They had three of the 65" model in stock. (Rochester, NY) If I had to guess, unless a shopper is "in the know" concerning what they're viewing, these won't exactly be flying off the shelves. Hopefully, AVSers looking for this panel will be able to grab one without hassle.
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post #1280 of 7282 Old 05-06-2013, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Matadurr 
1)48hz handles 24p the best on the S60. 2)Per what others have said, the annoyance of flicker can be variable. For me, I only notice if I look for it. 3)Even then, it has to be a very bright scene for me to even begin to catch on to it. 4)My 42ST30 that I had did handle 24p in 60hz mode much better than the S60 does. 5)However, if you have your blu-ray player do the pull-down (the blu-ray player feeding the TV a 3:2 60hz signal), it looks better. The difference between motion handling of 24p + 60hz and 3:2 pulldown (blu-ray) + 60hz is relatively marginal. There is a much larger difference between when the TV is set between 48hz and 60hz, however.

lol, I generally always agree with you, but I have to make my points on this one because I couldn't disagree more.

1) It's so marginal between 48Hz and 60Hz that I don't think you could notice unless you had two sets side-by-side, and "best"? I am running mine in 60Hz because I think it's "best" (smooth enough with no flicker).

2) Only if you look for it? You don't have to look that hard. Pop in Avatar, and the two clips before it starts (20th century fox and copyright scenes) are like strobelights.

3) It's not only on bright scenes, as the copyright scene is not bright, it's a solid color.

4) Did you test them side-by-side? If not, it may just be that you have a larger screen now, and judder is more pronounced on a larger screen. I feel my new set is just as smooth, if not smoother, as my old ST30.

5) I noticed zero difference between having my PS3 output 24p and 60Hz. If anything, I would recommend letting your TV do the 3:2 pulldown since it's a 2013 model, and PS3's (for example) have been out for a long time. One would assume the TV has better processing mechanics for this job.

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post #1281 of 7282 Old 05-06-2013, 10:10 AM
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Can someone with the S64 try to post a picture of how the AR coating looks/works? And offer an opinion whether it detracts from the image in a light controlled room (vs the S60 without it...)
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post #1282 of 7282 Old 05-06-2013, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiperco View Post

Can someone with the S64 try to post a picture of how the AR coating looks/works? And offer an opinion whether it detracts from the image in a light controlled room (vs the S60 without it...)

I have a 47" Panasonic LED (TC-L47E50) and the AR on that has more ripples than my TC-65PS64, which does not appear ripply to me at all to be honest. Both seem equally effective at dulling reflections though. IMO it does not detract from 'the image' nor black levels. Every high end plasma has an AR filter, and the higher end you go generally better 'the image' and lower the black levels...
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post #1283 of 7282 Old 05-06-2013, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curly21029 View Post

I spotted the S64 in Sam's yesterday, and damn is that a harsh way to display this television! Applying the additional AR filter over the S60 seemed like a good move because of the super harsh lighting, but they have it on a high shelf forcing one to view it at an upward angle. The louvre filter wreaks havoc on vertical viewing angles making it appear dimmer than it actually is -- and this effect is then compounded by the fact that it was sitting between two maxed-backlighted LCDs. Even in vivid mode, the S64 appeared exponentially dimmer than any other television in the row. (the Samsung plasma, however, held its own very well) One woman said to her (presumed) husband "there's something wrong with that one" as they were going down the line weighing their potential purchasing options. (they left with a Sharp)

They had three of the 65" model in stock. (Rochester, NY) If I had to guess, unless a shopper is "in the know" concerning what they're viewing, these won't exactly be flying off the shelves. Hopefully, AVSers looking for this panel will be able to grab one without hassle.

I stopped by another Sam's on Saturday to pick up my new membership card and check out what other merchandise they have. They had the 65S64 (I didn't think to check how many boxes they had below the display) between 2 maxed-lit LCDs. While the S64 looked dark in comparison, when I looked at some plants in the Sam's demo loop, I could see the detail in the green leaves while the color was washed out on the LCDs. Definitely more detail in the darker images. Motion seemed to be blurred on the 70" LCD next to it, but when I double-checked, I didn't see it happen again.
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post #1284 of 7282 Old 05-06-2013, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by moshock View Post

lol, I generally always agree with you, but I have to make my points on this one because I couldn't disagree more.

1) It's so marginal between 48Hz and 60Hz that I don't think you could notice unless you had two sets side-by-side, and "best"? I am running mine in 60Hz because I think it's "best" (smooth enough with no flicker).

2) Only if you look for it? You don't have to look that hard. Pop in Avatar, and the two clips before it starts (20th century fox and copyright scenes) are like strobelights.

3) It's not only on bright scenes, as the copyright scene is not bright, it's a solid color.

4) Did you test them side-by-side? If not, it may just be that you have a larger screen now, and judder is more pronounced on a larger screen. I feel my new set is just as smooth, if not smoother, as my old ST30.

5) I noticed zero difference between having my PS3 output 24p and 60Hz. If anything, I would recommend letting your TV do the 3:2 pulldown since it's a 2013 model, and PS3's (for example) have been out for a long time. One would assume the TV has better processing mechanics for this job.

tongue.gif
Haha, no worries. We're pretty like-minded for the most part
1) I ran 15 minutes of Avatar (from the initial landing where Jake gets attacked by the tiger-thing to the night scene after he's attacked by the dog pack) back-to-back in each mode. But yes, "best" can be subjective here, depending on flicker.
2) Yes, I did notice it there, though it by no means was image-detracting (I guess my eyes just aren't sensitive to flashing lights?)
3) Perhaps I should have noted it's when pixels are "more active" in scenes than others? Haha. Not sure
4) No, however, I kept the viewing distances proportional. However, the larger screen=perceived more judder is entirely possible
5) Ah. NEVER assume. wink.gif I didn't mention I am using a 2011 DMP-BDT110, which has been reviewed to have great video processing. Not sure if it's better than a PS3, though.
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post #1285 of 7282 Old 05-06-2013, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiperco View Post

Can someone with the S64 try to post a picture of how the AR coating looks/works? And offer an opinion whether it detracts from the image in a light controlled room (vs the S60 without it...)

Turns out my local Sam's Club has the S64. I agree with the poster above, the display strategy is terrible for this TV. The LCD's destroy it in brightness in a club setting.

Regarding the AR, I'm guessing this is internal somehow? Because if it is on the surface, I'd hate to see what a reflective screen looks like! eek.gif




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post #1286 of 7282 Old 05-06-2013, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiperco View Post

Turns out my local Sam's Club has the S64. I agree with the poster above, the display strategy is terrible for this TV. The LCD's destroy it in brightness in a club setting.

Regarding the AR, I'm guessing this is internal somehow? Because if it is on the surface, I'd hate to see what a reflective screen looks like! eek.gif

To be fair, a plasma will NEVER get close to a lcd on a white screen like that, in a club setting or not. But those reflections look pretty muted to me. Not even close to the s60 or last years u50.
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post #1287 of 7282 Old 05-06-2013, 09:57 PM
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That looks terrible. I can tell you it isn't going to be that dim. They probably have power saving and CATS on.
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post #1288 of 7282 Old 05-06-2013, 10:12 PM
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Get the TV home and be WOWed by a plasma. Don't waste time comparing TVs at the retail store, otherwise you will end up with a overly sharpened bluish edge lit LED with uniformity issues and light bleed. Then when you get invited to your friends house and his bluray looks so much more life like on his plasma and you wonder if there is something wrong with your led TV. Just know that there are settings on the menu to make plasma look incredible, yet no setting in the world can compensate for a crappy screen to begin with...
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post #1289 of 7282 Old 05-06-2013, 11:39 PM
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so according to cnet the vt60 has 700 lines of moving resolution with smoothing features disabled, the same as s60's. That makes me feel even better about my purchase!
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post #1290 of 7282 Old 05-06-2013, 11:56 PM
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I don't understand how CNET comes up with their motion resolution. HDTVTest.uk usually reports different.
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Panasonic Tc P65s60 65 Inch 1080p 600hz Plasma Hdtv , Panasonic 60 Inch Plasma Hdtv Tc P60s60 , Panasonic Tc P55s60 55 Inch 1080p 600hz Plasma Hdtv , Panasonic Tc P50s60 50 Inch Plasma Hdtv , Panasonic 42 Inch Plasma Hdtv Tc P42s60
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