Official Panasonic S60 Series Discussion Thread - Page 52 - AVS Forum
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post #1531 of 7187 Old 05-19-2013, 12:50 AM
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The models with filter give more pop and more shadow detail. Go try them side by side. I did.

I periodically read this myth about how great it is without the filter. I got fed up and just bought two TV to compare. Well why not with great return policies. I think some people they to justify their purchases with fantasies.
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post #1532 of 7187 Old 05-19-2013, 12:56 AM
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What two tv's? Have you posted your comparison results anywhere? Thanks
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post #1533 of 7187 Old 05-19-2013, 04:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post

The models with filter give more pop and more shadow detail. Go try them side by side. I did.

I periodically read this myth about how great it is without the filter. I got fed up and just bought two TV to compare. Well why not with great return policies. I think some people they to justify their purchases with fantasies.
Which is exactly the kind of thing that is making companies return policies more and more strict.
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post #1534 of 7187 Old 05-19-2013, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by doomnaut View Post

Is this a fact or personal opinion? I'm on the fence between the S60 and ST60 mostly because of this. I wouldn't mind saving a few bucks.

I would say it's a fact (in a dark or dimly lit room). The filter reduces light output, which causes some low level shadow detail to be lost as black, which can be compensated for by increasing the brightness (i.e. black level) but at the expense of slightly washing out the image.

The 65" S60 is less than $1500 on amazon right now. How much is the S64 at costco? I thought it was $1500, no?
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post #1535 of 7187 Old 05-19-2013, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post

The models with filter give more pop and more shadow detail. Go try them side by side. I did.

Under what conditions? He's saying in a darkened room.
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post #1536 of 7187 Old 05-19-2013, 08:23 AM
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Under either dark or light room conditions. It is a myth that the filter somehow blocks detail. What yo are saying is that the low end model performs better than the higher end model which is simply now true and wishful thinking. Like I said, I would purchase both and compare side by side. If you just want to save a few bucks, then get the model without filter and be done with it.

It only happens if your eye level is higher than then panel itself. I.e. if you set the TV on the floor.
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post #1537 of 7187 Old 05-19-2013, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

Yes, definitely. The filter reduces image brightness and 'pop'. You also get better shadow detail without an AR filter. Overall the image is just clearer and better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by doomnaut View Post

Is this a fact or personal opinion? I'm on the fence between the S60 and ST60 mostly because of this. I wouldn't mind saving a few bucks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post

The models with filter give more pop and more shadow detail. Go try them side by side. I did. I periodically read this myth about how great it is without the filter. I got fed up and just bought two TV to compare. Well why not with great return policies. I think some people they to justify their purchases with fantasies.


It does appear to be a myth. This info from the shootout was posted about a week ago in this thread:

"Originally Posted by curly21029: As an FYI, at the end of the streamed Shootout tonight they left some time for internet commenters to ask questions. Since there had been debate on this thread, one of the questions I asked was whether or not an AR filter has any impact on perceivable sharpness and detail. D-Nice said flat out that it's a "myth" and Kevin Miller and David Mackenzie agreed."

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1461177/official-panasonic-s60-series-discussion-thread/1380#post_23309768

As for an AR Filter reducing light output, i don't recall ever seeing any evidence to this effect (someone needs to test an S60 and an S64 directly), but even if the S60 did turn out to get brighter than an S64 would anyone really need that extra headroom? Since the S60 would presumably be in a dark or light controlled room the owner surely wouldn't have the disply set to a high screen brightness setting anyway and both TVs would be dialed back to a more reasonable or cinematic brightness level... both TVs are more than bright enough in the first place. Personally i would never pick the version that does not have an AR Filter since the various benefits of having that filter far outweigh any perceived or imagined improvement in PQ.

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post #1538 of 7187 Old 05-19-2013, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post

What yo are saying is that the low end model performs better than the higher end model which is simply now true and wishful thinking.

Actually, this is not what I'm saying. I'm saying all other things being equal, the one without the AR filter will perform better in a dark or dimly lit viewing environment. Also, I thought the comparison was between the S60 and the S64 and not the ST60 (which may perform better even in a darkened environment).
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post #1539 of 7187 Old 05-19-2013, 09:26 AM
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You may be correct I haven't seen the S64
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post #1540 of 7187 Old 05-19-2013, 09:40 AM
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Not the same as comparing a s60 vs s64 but my 65VT50 in isf day is brighter than my 42S60 at contrast 100 custom mode, mid panel. Of course better black too!

NHT speakers, Denon 4520, 65VT50
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post #1541 of 7187 Old 05-19-2013, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

The 65" S60 is less than $1500 on amazon right now. How much is the S64 at costco? I thought it was $1500, no?

The 65S64 is $1400 at both Sam's and Costco: http://www.costco.com/Panasonic-65%22-1080p-Plasma-TV-TC-65PS64.product.100043008.html?catalogId=10701&categoryId=30771&identifier=plasma-tvs&langId=-1&storeId=10301

I thought Panasonic doesn't make a 65" S60, just the 60" S60, which is cheaper at $1210 at Amazon.

The Costco web page shows this feature in addition to CATS:
"Power Save
This setting adjusts screen brightness to reduce power consumption."

So this is another brightness feature separate from CATS and ABL? ABL is not for power saving but to preserve the life of the plasma from what people have said here.
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post #1542 of 7187 Old 05-19-2013, 11:09 AM
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I'm going to go ahead and remove my newer calibration that I did with the Panel brightness at High and gamma at 2.6. While I had noticed some increased shadow detail/dithering in dark scenes was excessive myself. Another user in another thread confirmed that the Panel brightness settings affect the dithering and that the High panel setting is used to drive the Vivid mode. I then popped on some content to verify that when you change the Panel brightness from High to Mid, there is excessive dithering which is very obvious. So I'll be taking them down once I get back home from some lunch, in case anybody wants to copy them for reference or copy the calibration charts. I highly suggest though to stop using them if you had been using them for more pop in colors/brightness as the increased dithering is a real bummer.

If you are looking for a brighter calibration for gaming or just brighter room, I would suggest either Custom/Cinema with a higher Contrast + Mid panel or the Home theater setting with contrast higher (but in this setting you have no control over Pro settings so everything will not be tuned in 100%)
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HTPC/Sony S5100 to Sony HT-CT660 to Panasonic 55" VT60, Sony 32" EX400, Panasonic 50" S60
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post #1543 of 7187 Old 05-19-2013, 11:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post

The models with filter give more pop and more shadow detail. Go try them side by side. I did. I periodically read this myth about how great it is without the filter. I got fed up and just bought two TV to compare.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post

You may be correct I haven't seen the S64

???

I presumed when you said above that you compared both side by side in your home that you had an S60 and S64 side by side but apparently that isn't the case. So which models did you compare side by side? If you compared an S60 to an ST60 then the comparison isn't very valid since the ST60 has a completely different panel than the S60 does.

The only way to really test the AR Filter's effect on PQ would be to directly test an S60 alongside an S64.
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post #1544 of 7187 Old 05-19-2013, 12:02 PM
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Ive read though a lot of these posts and used fairchilds calibration which are excellent. Thanks god for his posts he made my tv look so much better lol.

Anyway, I was wondering is anyone had any good calibration settings for gaming on xbox 360. Although fairchilds settings are great for tv/video, they are not good for gaming (too dark). Any suggestions?
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post #1545 of 7187 Old 05-19-2013, 12:24 PM
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I thought Panasonic doesn't make a 65" S60, just the 60" S60, which is cheaper at $1210 at Amazon.

No, Panasonic makes a 65" S60.
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post #1546 of 7187 Old 05-19-2013, 12:32 PM
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Hello Everyone. First post here so don't chew up my simple method too bad wink.gif

I purchased this tv (the s60) yesterday and just wanted to post my impressions.

First of all as many people here and other places have said, the picture really is amazing. I have been trying to find a new tv for the past 3 weeks and this is the third (or fourth if you count that I exchanged one one I have tried out).

The first one was a LG 47cs570 on sale for $500 and then two LG 47lm5850's for about $750, all of which had rather nice pictures but suffered from extremely distracting DSE that made them almost unwatchable for me.

So after more research I found that if I stuck with LCD tvs in my price range (around $1000 or so with taxes, 13% sales tax here in Ontario Canada) I really would just have to deal with the DSE as almost every set would suffer from it. So i decided to try a plasma, as they were said to for the most part not suffer from it. Well that has seemed to be the case as this s60 seems very uniform with no bright or dark spots or lines that I can make out. On top of that the super dark blacks are just something else, the dark grey blacks from LCD tvs always bugged me a little bit.

The only real issue I have with the set is the noise in the picture when looking close at the screen. I have tried to find information about what causes this "issue?" but all I can seem to find is that plasma's in general or at least Panasonic plasma's just do it. I sit the recommended distance away from the 50" screen and I really can't see it during normal viewing, but its annoying to know its there, just a minor ocd on my part I guess. When it is a bit of an issue is during dark grey screens, like some of the menu's in Forza 4 if any of you guys have played that game. The menu should be almost black, but because of this noise they look lighter than they should and I can just make out the fact that the noise is not static.

If anyone has any insight as to the cause of the effect, and a solution or at least a way to reduce the effect, i would love to read it.

Anyway that aside the tv looks great.

I also wanted to comment on the response time of the television. Reading through the first 20 or 30 pages of this thread there were many requests for the response time of the television, with no actual answers beyond that no one really seemed to be having an issue. So I thought I would provide my findings that actually have some numbers attached, though the accuracy of the tests i'm sure is far from ideal.

Anyway, the test is simply the auto calibration feature in rock band 2. The guitar it comes with has a microphone and a light sensor in it that is used to calibrate game to your home theater setup. For sound, the game emits a tone at set intervals and measures the time it takes from when the game sends out the tone, to when the guitar's microphone picks up the tone.

In the case of the s60 on cinema mode with no sound features enabled it was 43ms.

Next was the screen latency test. It uses the exact same concept as the sound test but instead of a sound tone it flashes the screen white and uses the light sensor in the guitar to detect the flash.

It's result was 37ms for the s60, which out of the tv's i tested was the best. the 47cs570 was a whopping 70-100ms which made games feel very offputting, not quite unplayable but they just didnt feel right.
The 47lm5850 was much better at around 45ms, which felt just fine to me.

Seeing as the test is extremely easy to do, if anyone would like me to test with various post processing effects on either sound or video let me know and I'll see what it comes up with.

Anyway, it was a long post and thank you to the people who made it through my ramblings. Thanks to everyone who gave this tv a recommendation as I am really loving it so far, I do believe I have been converted to the "dark" side wink.gif

If I am the first one to come up with that joke for plasmas then the nerdiness of this community disappoints me a bit haha.

Cheers.
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post #1547 of 7187 Old 05-19-2013, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post


The only way to really test the AR Filter's effect on PQ would be to directly test an S60 alongside an S64.

Yes, exactly. In a dark or dimly lit room the S60 should be better due to not having an AR filter. An AR filter is a compromise. In a brightly lit room it can improve the PQ by reducing reflections, but in a darker room it will be a detriment to PQ because it blocks light output. An AR filter is much like a big sheeth of sunglasses like material pasted on the screen. As I've said, with and without an AR filter is similar to removing and putting on sunglasses, though not as dramatic a difference.

The bottom line is if you don't have reflection issues, you should definitely get the S60. If you do have reflection issues, depending on the degree, it's a personal choice as to what takes away from the PQ more (reflections or the AR filter).
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post #1548 of 7187 Old 05-19-2013, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Ryan Mo View Post

Ive read though a lot of these posts and used fairchilds calibration which are excellent. Thanks god for his posts he made my tv look so much better lol.

Anyway, I was wondering is anyone had any good calibration settings for gaming on xbox 360. Although fairchilds settings are great for tv/video, they are not good for gaming (too dark). Any suggestions?

I found fairchilds too dark, accurate or not. I have a pretty well-lit room, and even when it's dark I use a lot of ambient lighting.

My brigther settings I use can be found here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1461177/official-panasonic-s60-series-discussion-thread/1050#post_23257176

Let me know what you think of them. I think they're plenty bright for gaming (do a lot of BF3 on PS3). Remember, you can always make brightness adjustments in-game as well.
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post #1549 of 7187 Old 05-19-2013, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post


The only way to really test the AR Filter's effect on PQ would be to directly test an S60 alongside an S64.

Yes, exactly. In a dark or dimly lit room the S60 should be better due to not having an AR filter. An AR filter is a compromise. In a brightly lit room it can improve the PQ by reducing reflections, but in a darker room it will be a detriment to PQ because it blocks light output. An AR filter is much like a big sheeth of sunglasses like material pasted on the screen. As I've said, with and without an AR filter is similar to removing and putting on sunglasses, though not as dramatic a difference.

The bottom line is if you don't have reflection issues, you should definitely get the S60. If you do have reflection issues, depending on the degree, it's a personal choice as to what takes away from the PQ more (reflections or the AR filter).

I totally get what you're saying, but may I remind you that every model above the S60 uses an AR filter. And the picture quality just gets better as you move up the chain.
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post #1550 of 7187 Old 05-19-2013, 04:13 PM
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been thinking about getting one of these and i'm not sure what to get size wise. i live in an apartment and i'm about 10-11 ft from wall to wall
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post #1551 of 7187 Old 05-19-2013, 04:16 PM
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been thinking about getting one of these and i'm not sure what to get size wise. i live in an apartment and i'm about 10-11 ft from wall to wall

At least 55" I'd say.
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post #1552 of 7187 Old 05-19-2013, 04:22 PM
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At least 55" I'd say.

yeah that is what i was thinking but for some reason i really want to go crazy and get like a 60 or 65 inch one. i just don't wanna be over taken by the tv.
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post #1553 of 7187 Old 05-19-2013, 04:47 PM
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I don't remember seeing this but I'd love to know if anyone has hands on impressions of both the S60 and S64. Is the S60 really that much brighter or is this all hearsay?
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post #1554 of 7187 Old 05-19-2013, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
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???

I presumed when you said above that you compared both side by side in your home that you had an S60 and S64 side by side but apparently that isn't the case. So which models did you compare side by side? If you compared an S60 to an ST60 then the comparison isn't very valid since the ST60 has a completely different panel than the S60 does.

The only way to really test the AR Filter's effect on PQ would be to directly test an S60 alongside an S64.

I only compared ST60 and S60 side by side.
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post #1555 of 7187 Old 05-19-2013, 05:06 PM
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yeah that is what i was thinking but for some reason i really want to go crazy and get like a 60 or 65 inch one. i just don't wanna be over taken by the tv.

the 60" is a good buy though.

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post #1556 of 7187 Old 05-19-2013, 05:34 PM
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Which is exactly the kind of thing that is making companies return policies more and more strict.
Yeah, I don't encourage that kind of testing, either...that's a lot of money lost by all parties (except customer) to take care of restocking that.

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So I'll be taking them down once I get back home from some lunch, in case anybody wants to copy them for reference or copy the calibration charts. I highly suggest though to stop using them if you had been using them for more pop in colors/brightness as the increased dithering is a real bummer.
At any rate, I used your last calibration for Wreck-it-Ralph last night. Definitely love the PQ, but the dithering was there whenever a black/very-dark screen was predominant. The calibration before it I like just about as much: less pop, but no dithering whatsoever.

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been thinking about getting one of these and i'm not sure what to get size wise. i live in an apartment and i'm about 10-11 ft from wall to wall
Go big (if it's in your budget). My viewing distance is only 8 feet and I'm going to be getting a 65-incher to replace the 60-inch I returned today (the popping power board that some on here know about).

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I don't remember seeing this but I'd love to know if anyone has hands on impressions of both the S60 and S64. Is the S60 really that much brighter or is this all hearsay?
If I can do a road trip to a costco in early August to pick up a 65s64, I can give you at least a subjective comparison. I'd imagine they are essentially the same, since the AR filter on the S64 is pretty weak compared to higher-tier filters. It's not even as good as the one on my old 42ST30.
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post #1557 of 7187 Old 05-19-2013, 07:03 PM
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been thinking about getting one of these and i'm not sure what to get size wise. i live in an apartment and i'm about 10-11 ft from wall to wall

I'm ~12ft from my 65" and I could totally go bigger. I'd have went 70-75" this year if Panasonic had made it. wink.gif
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post #1558 of 7187 Old 05-19-2013, 08:09 PM
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getbig21, top of page47 has some nice links regarding screen size. Pretty much anything 9 feet or more should get a 70"+ screen, so 65" is no problem. My viewing distance is 11 ft., and the articles below recommend anything from 70" to 85".
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I have done a little bit a research as far as size of a HDTV and how far one should sit goes. I get the idea that the old rules went out the window when 1080p came out and that in the future it would change again with the higher resolution of 4K.

Some links...

http://reviews.cnet.com/tv-buying-guide/

http://hdguru.com/lechner-distance-the-number-you-need-to-know-before-buying-an-hdtv/21/

I thought this article was somewhat informative though it is not necessarily on topic for me...http://journal.smpte.org/content/108/5/284.full.pdf+html?sid=f79569dc-824b-4bd1-a96f-98e5732f1318 I would have liked to have found some more info from this site/organiztion, but I kind of gave up, though I might revisit it in the future.

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57468333-221/how-big-a-tv-should-i-buy/...though I think they got the THX multiplier wrong as they claim a .84 multiplier and the below, more recent, YouTube video from THX uses a multiplier of .60. (inches from display x .60 = optimal diagonal inches of display)
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post #1559 of 7187 Old 05-19-2013, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by moshock View Post

I'm ~12ft from my 65" and I could totally go bigger. I'd have went 70-75" this year if Panasonic had made it. wink.gif
Was about to ask if there has ever been a plasma TV larger than 65 inches. Found out Panny themselves sell/used to sell both an 85 inch and 103 inch version.
Woah.
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post #1560 of 7187 Old 05-19-2013, 11:03 PM
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Anyway, the test is simply the auto calibration feature in rock band 2. The guitar it comes with has a microphone and a light sensor in it that is used to calibrate game to your home theater setup. For sound, the game emits a tone at set intervals and measures the time it takes from when the game sends out the tone, to when the guitar's microphone picks up the tone.

In the case of the s60 on cinema mode with no sound features enabled it was 43ms.

Next was the screen latency test. It uses the exact same concept as the sound test but instead of a sound tone it flashes the screen white and uses the light sensor in the guitar to detect the flash.

It's result was 37ms for the s60, which out of the tv's i tested was the best. the 47cs570 was a whopping 70-100ms which made games feel very offputting, not quite unplayable but they just didnt feel right.
The 47lm5850 was much better at around 45ms, which felt just fine to me.

What are you serious?? That's like a Leo Bodnar test. And, it looks like the results are relatively close, except the Leo was reporting 34 ms. Now I want Rock Band 2.
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