Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 125 - AVS Forum
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post #3721 of 12735 Old 04-25-2013, 12:28 PM
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This a "take it for what its worth post" on the brightness pops. Excuse me if i dont use punctuation or grammar in this post, but im kinda in a hurry and this info should be passed on to owners and prospective owners. Unless this firmware update that we are hoping for is in the hands of just a few people, there is no new firmware update. I spoke to a remote management tech and she spoke to a product specialist on the f8500. They said they are not aware of this popping problem and they are not aware of any new firmware. She remoted into my television and thankfully, i was able to reproduce the pops on the movie, goon, on netflix. I was also able to produce it on savages blu ray, both in which she saw the pops both times. She said the goon pops were almost grey to white. (pretty accurate, at least to me). Then said she noticed it on savages. Thats a good thing. I told her there are plenty of folks who have this set and are experiencing it. She said that she is only one person and may not be aware of the issues and said she didnt hear many issues with this set b/c its brand new. She did a tv scan remotely and said there are no issues. Said that it shouldnt be happening and ordered a tech to come out. Not really sure what a tech can do, but ill take it if they send it out. I will easily be able to show this tech the pops in person. If you are not calling samsung and are an owner experiencing the pops, then its your fault if samsung doesnt know. They arent mind readers and need peoples feedback to make a change. Hell, the tech even admitted to the abl or whatever the hell its called that the d series suffered from. My first two attempts to their support were the old, "wait for a tech to call in 24-48 hours." Thats bs. They wont call back, at least in my case they didn't. They finally transferred me to a tech and then a remote tech. Just wanted to let you all know. Not gonna lie, a little discouraged that im under the impression that there is no firmware fix. I hope there is, the issue is still not enough for me to return this insanely nice display.
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post #3722 of 12735 Old 04-25-2013, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arenaman View Post

This was a bugbear of mine, movie and warm 2 on the ES8000 and F8000 LEDs was just horribly yellow, I couldn't watch it although calibrations stated the picture was correct. I much preferred the blue push of standard and standard The F8500 in movie is totally different, nice and white, I might even make movie mode my mode of choice now wink.gif

Without the big brightness gain of the F8500, 'Movie mode' and 'Warm 1' for the E Series Plasma is the only way to go.wink.gif
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post #3723 of 12735 Old 04-25-2013, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by endlessender View Post

When sitting close (maybe 6 feet) to my 64" and watching in 3D, reducing the cell light creates a much smoother picture with less apparent "grain" from visible pixels. Makes a huge difference. From my "normal" viewing distance of around 12 feet it's not an issue.

The "grain" is dithering and If you can see it you are sitting too close.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mightymouseusf View Post

I just want to quickly interject here. Ph8te, while I don't question what the rep told you about the cell light, I think it's important to mention that many people on this forum, including those who've had their set's calibrated professionally, don't have it set to 20. My calibrator only used 20 for the day mode, and only because I specifically asked him to calibrate it around a cell light setting of 20 based on what I had read here. He told me he probably would have set it at around 15 or so. Again, this may be the "intended" Samsung setting, it doesn't mean you can't have an accurate image at different settings. To be fair, most people who saw my posted CAL-NIGHT setting with Cell Light at 10 said the image looked too muted for them even though it looks great to me...go figure. Opinions are like buttholes I guess...wink.gif

I'll be exploring the possibilities tomorrow. Perhaps the F85000 increased luminance is a plasma game changer. If so, it would be a first.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinson ------ View Post

I think if a person uses warm2, the cell@20 is fine, but if one uses warm1 (cell@20 is too bright) cell@14 is good.
light controlled rooms...
cell@20, warm2
cell@14, warm1
Theres a massive difference in overall brightness of tv, based on warm1or2. Thats why I think most people use cell@18-20 because there using warm2...
another example...
cell@20, daytime
cell@14, nighttime
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonyfan View Post

With the E series I can assure you no matter what the cell is set to
'Warm 2' looks horrible unless you like yellow looking snow.eek.gif

It appears neither of you know what color temperature is. Warm2, Cool1, etc. are Grayscale presets. When a TV is calibrated the various presets are tested to see which one comes the closest to the D65 White Point which is the Rec.709 Grayscale standard of which Blu-Ray discs and hopefully broadcast HDTV are mastered. Warm2 is "normally" the closest to D65 and that is the reason it is so often mentioned. Once the correct preset is determined, a minimum amount of adjustment will be required.

Statements about one preset being brighter than another are for the most part incorrect. Proper Gray is equal parts Red, Green, and Blue. If Blue is dominant, the picture appears brighter because that is the way the eye/brain interaction works. This is why most TVs come from the manufacturers heavy in Blue. Stacked up on the BestBuy wall the customer nearly always chooses the "brightest" one within a given price range. The manufacturers' marketing departments are well aware of this and now you too know the reason.

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post #3724 of 12735 Old 04-25-2013, 12:49 PM
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BTW, let Sumsung know that owners want a 70" and 80" F8500 for a future upgrade.
If you demand it, they CAN build it.
Sumsung spent who knows how many billions of $ to make the F8500 a reality.
Why limit such a great panel to a 64" screen?biggrin.gif
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post #3725 of 12735 Old 04-25-2013, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by sass8181 View Post

This a "take it for what its worth post" on the brightness pops. Excuse me if i dont use punctuation or grammar in this post, but im kinda in a hurry and this info should be passed on to owners and prospective owners. Unless this firmware update that we are hoping for is in the hands of just a few people, there is no new firmware update. I spoke to a remote management tech and she spoke to a product specialist on the f8500. They said they are not aware of this popping problem and they are not aware of any new firmware. She remoted into my television and thankfully, i was able to reproduce the pops on the movie, goon, on netflix. I was also able to produce it on savages blu ray, both in which she saw the pops both times. She said the goon pops were almost grey to white. (pretty accurate, at least to me). Then said she noticed it on savages. Thats a good thing. I told her there are plenty of folks who have this set and are experiencing it. She said that she is only one person and may not be aware of the issues and said she didnt hear many issues with this set b/c its brand new. She did a tv scan remotely and said there are no issues. Said that it shouldnt be happening and ordered a tech to come out. Not really sure what a tech can do, but ill take it if they send it out. I will easily be able to show this tech the pops in person. If you are not calling samsung and are an owner experiencing the pops, then its your fault if samsung doesnt know. They arent mind readers and need peoples feedback to make a change. Hell, the tech even admitted to the abl or whatever the hell its called that the d series suffered from. My first two attempts to their support were the old, "wait for a tech to call in 24-48 hours." Thats bs. They wont call back, at least in my case they didn't. They finally transferred me to a tech and then a remote tech. Just wanted to let you all know. Not gonna lie, a little discouraged that im under the impression that there is no firmware fix. I hope there is, the issue is still not enough for me to return this insanely nice display.

ouch, took me awhile to read that. As far as the firmware goes, the low level techs may not know, heck most barley know the TVs and the features.....Theyll know once it gets pushed down the pipeline as a being worked on or available firmware release..So could there still be a fix yep sure could be, so dont be too discouraged, Robert form VE has posted about it, so until he says otherwise I would think its still in the works. Only time will tell if they actually come out with one though.

You did the right thing by calling, which is what I hope people are doing, the more people that call the mreo likely it will be treated with urgency......
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post #3726 of 12735 Old 04-25-2013, 12:54 PM
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Thanks ph8te. Appreciate ur contributions. Let me ask ur advice. Is it worth having a tech come out? I don't want him opening this set up to change a board if that's not the fix
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post #3727 of 12735 Old 04-25-2013, 01:02 PM
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buzzard767
That's all good and fine but I was not talking about a calibrated set.
I'm referring to 'user menu' settings for owners who will never want or care about pro calibrations.
BTW, what percentage of the Tv buying public has their Tv Pro calibrated?
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post #3728 of 12735 Old 04-25-2013, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sass8181 View Post

Thanks ph8te. Appreciate ur contributions. Let me ask ur advice. Is it worth having a tech come out? I don't want him opening this set up to change a board if that's not the fix

if it's specifically an RO for the abl pop i sure wouldn't want him out. other than his usual enter in SM test ,check, click jargens i see no point, but that is me.

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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

The "grain" is dithering and If you can see it you are sitting too close.
I'll be exploring the possibilities tomorrow. Perhaps the F85000 increased luminance is a plasma game changer. If so, it would be a first.

It appears neither of you know what color temperature is. Warm2, Cool1, etc. are Grayscale presets. When a TV is calibrated the various presets are tested to see which one comes the closest to the D65 White Point which is the Rec.709 Grayscale standard of which Blu-Ray discs and hopefully broadcast HDTV are mastered. Warm2 is "normally" the closest to D65 and that is the reason it is so often mentioned. Once the correct preset is determined, a minimum amount of adjustment will be required.

Statements about one preset being brighter than another are for the most part incorrect. Proper Gray is equal parts Red, Green, and Blue. If Blue is dominant, the picture appears brighter because that is the way the eye/brain interaction works. This is why most TVs come from the manufacturers heavy in Blue. Stacked up on the BestBuy wall the customer nearly always chooses the "brightest" one within a given price range. The manufacturers' marketing departments are well aware of this and now you too know the reason.

I've settled for an eyeball calibration with using ycbcr 4:4:4 at source, warm1, cell 18 and gamma -1 on the TV.
As I stated in an earlier post I intend to do a half decent calibration with a meter where I will select warm2, gamma 0 and cell 20 as my starting point and see what I can finish up with.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinson ------ View Post

I think if a person uses warm2, the cell@20 is fine, but if one uses warm1 (cell@20 is too bright) cell@14 is good.

light controlled rooms...
cell@20, warm2
cell@14, warm1

Theres a massive difference in overall brightness of tv, based on warm1or2. Thats why I think most people use cell@18-20 because there using warm2...

another example...
cell@20, daytime
cell@14, nighttime

Bang on +1.
Totally agree with you.
This even applies for eyeball calibrations.
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post #3731 of 12735 Old 04-25-2013, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sass8181 View Post

Thanks ph8te. Appreciate ur contributions. Let me ask ur advice. Is it worth having a tech come out? I don't want him opening this set up to change a board if that's not the fix

Quote:
Originally Posted by airgas1998 View Post

if it's specifically an RO for the abl pop i sure wouldn't want him out. other than his usual enter in SM test ,check, click jargens i see no point, but that is me.

air pretty much stated it, but most likely he wont need to open up the TV. If they come out and find the issue they can validate that it is abnormal behavior and not supposed to be happening. Right now we dont know what the fix could be or not be. It could be as easy as a firmware fix, it could be a board replacement. Without having tehm out though you'll never know what they recommend. Its a touch decision....If you get a Tech to come out at least you ahve started the process however and ahve record of it...
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post #3732 of 12735 Old 04-25-2013, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by sonyfan View Post

buzzard767
That's all good and fine but I was not talking about a calibrated set.
I'm referring to 'user menu' settings for owners who will never want or care about pro calibrations.
BTW, what percentage of the Tv buying public has their Tv Pro calibrated?

Not having a TV calibrated is probably the best reason there is to use Warm 2. At least with Warm 2 you'll be somewhat close to the standard that content creators use and you'll be able to see movies and TV shows the way they were designed to look.

Of course, if all you want out of your TV is 'bright and shiny' it doesn't matter. It blows my mind that people will pay thousands of dollars for a capable TV set and then deliberately watch their content distorted. But, to each their own...

Adjusting settings according to personal preference is not calibration.
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post #3733 of 12735 Old 04-25-2013, 02:07 PM
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Are you able to achieve the soap opera effect with f8500 as with its cousin f8000?
Pls dont bash me, I use it for certsin TV shows and need to know smile.gif

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post #3734 of 12735 Old 04-25-2013, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Halimali View Post

Are you able to achieve the soap opera effect with f8500 as with its cousin f8000?
Pls dont bash me, I use it for certsin TV shows and need to know smile.gif
in all it's glory, if you want it to.

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post #3735 of 12735 Old 04-25-2013, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by sonyfan View Post

buzzard767
That's all good and fine but I was not talking about a calibrated set.
I'm referring to 'user menu' settings for owners who will never want or care about pro calibrations.
BTW, what percentage of the Tv buying public has their Tv Pro calibrated?

1. The color temp presets are in the user menu. So is everything else. Samsungs are no longer calibrated in the service menu.
2. Unknown

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Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

I've settled for an eyeball calibration with using ycbcr 4:4:4 at source, warm1, cell 18 and gamma -1 on the TV.
As I stated in an earlier post I intend to do a half decent calibration with a meter where I will select warm2, gamma 0 and cell 20 as my starting point and see what I can finish up with.



If you have a meter why aren't you calibrating now? The very first thing I do when I bring a new display home is put a meter on it.With my critical eye I couldn't stand to watch it otherwise.... tongue.gif

1. Set black
2. Set white
3. Put up a White pattern, measure every GS preset, and choose the one closest to D65. That's how you do it. Don't blindly choose Warm2. On the other hand, if you start with W2 and it's close you needn't bother looking further. The entire point is to minimize the number of clicks required to get GS balanced.

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post #3736 of 12735 Old 04-25-2013, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

The "grain" is dithering and If you can see it you are sitting too close.

I'm aware of what dithering is. If I'm "too close", then why don't I see it in 2D from the same distance? And why does lowering the back light fix it? It does look like dithering, but the same distance doesn't show the dithering in 2D and the dithering is masked in 3D when the backlight is backed down to 14 from 20. That's the point - that there is some worth to lowering the backlight - at least in this scenario.

Your response doesn't take into account, nor does it address the fact that the dithering, for some reason unbeknownst to me, is exacerbated in 3D and that, as I stated, lowering the cell light fixes it and makes it absolutely and perfectly watchable. To me, that is the interesting take away from this.

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post #3737 of 12735 Old 04-25-2013, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by airgas1998 View Post

in all it's glory, if you want it to.
Thank you, really good to know that as I heard the E8000 did not have it

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If you have a meter why aren't you calibrating now?

Waiting for burn in, almost at 300 hours and it's fun to try and get somewhere by eye then compare notes.
I also don't have decent usable software yet. HCFR is a bit confusing, and it doesn't support my meter properly.
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post #3739 of 12735 Old 04-25-2013, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by endlessender View Post

I'm aware of what dithering is. If I'm "too close", then why don't I see it in 2D from the same distance? And why does lowering the back light fix it? It does look like dithering, but the same distance doesn't show the dithering in 2D and the dithering is masked in 3D when the backlight is backed down to 14 from 20. That's the point - that there is some worth to lowering the backlight - at least in this scenario.

Your response doesn't take into account, nor does it address the fact that the dithering, for some reason unbeknownst to me, is exacerbated in 3D and that, as I stated, lowering the cell light fixes it and makes it absolutely and perfectly watchable. To me, that is the interesting take away from this.

You quoted me - "I'll be exploring the possibilities tomorrow." How may I answer your questions today?

lol - but I'll give you possibilities. Lowering the CL "might" be crushing near black into black and masking the dither. As to 3D, looking through the glasses drastically reduces luminance and may also be masking the dither as a result. You can check the first one with any consumer calibration disc by using the pluge pattern.

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post #3740 of 12735 Old 04-25-2013, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

Waiting for burn in, almost at 300 hours and it's fun to try and get somewhere by eye then compare notes.
I also don't have decent usable software yet. HCFR is a bit confusing, and it doesn't support my meter properly.

Geepers I hope your not waiting for burn in wink.gif I know you mean break in though biggrin.gif
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You quoted me - "I'll be exploring the possibilities tomorrow." How may I answer your questions today?

lol - but I'll give you possibilities. Lowering the CL "might" be crushing near black into black and masking the dither. As to 3D, looking through the glasses drastically reduces luminance and may also be masking the dither as a result. You can check the first one with any consumer calibration disc by using the pluge pattern.

It's interesting that, without glasses, the dithering is exacerbated heavily. I wonder what it is about switching to 3D that makes this happen. Regardless, lowering CL makes it look quite nice :-)

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post #3742 of 12735 Old 04-25-2013, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

You quoted me - "I'll be exploring the possibilities tomorrow." How may I answer your questions today?

lol - but I'll give you possibilities. Lowering the CL "might" be crushing near black into black and masking the dither. As to 3D, looking through the glasses drastically reduces luminance and may also be masking the dither as a result. You can check the first one with any consumer calibration disc by using the pluge pattern.

Hi, Buzz. When you put your meter on the F8500, please check how the 10 point controls behave with Cell at 20 and Contrast set to give about 30 ftL peak output. This has been a problem (as you know) with the E and F series. And I think D-Nice ended up reducing Cell on a F8500 in order to get use out of all or most of the10 point control regions instead of only five or so when Cell was at 20 and Contrast reduced.

It's a very, very bright set indeed.

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post #3743 of 12735 Old 04-25-2013, 03:34 PM
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The Sony is an edge lit LCD with which probably has most if not all the shortcomings of the genre'. I assume it will be in the Shootout so be patient.

As true as that may be, it is number 1 on Jeff's recommended list. He said he has not been as awe struck with a tv since the arrival of the Kuro back in 07. It has to be at true performer before Jeff would recommend it so highly. He does say that it has some typical lcd shortcomings and he acknowledges that, but its still a superior performer otherwise.

If you're talkin, you ain't learnin.
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Geepers I hope your not waiting for burn in wink.gif I know you mean break in though biggrin.gif


Yeah sorry. I meant burn in the phosphors in my head smile.gif
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post #3745 of 12735 Old 04-25-2013, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

You quoted me - "I'll be exploring the possibilities tomorrow." How may I answer your questions today?

lol - but I'll give you possibilities. Lowering the CL "might" be crushing near black into black and masking the dither. As to 3D, looking through the glasses drastically reduces luminance and may also be masking the dither as a result. You can check the first one with any consumer calibration disc by using the pluge pattern.

Buzz,

Not sure if youll get a chance tomorrow but i was wondering if youd be able to run teh test described in the folowing thread if you get a chance during the calibration (pie you may want to take a look and run it yourself wink.gif )

:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1415546/patterns-to-measure-mll-as-a-function-of-apl#post_22129761
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post #3746 of 12735 Old 04-25-2013, 04:00 PM
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I also don't have decent usable software yet. HCFR is a bit confusing, and it doesn't support my meter properly.

How so? You said that you have an i1Display Pro. I have a ColorMunki Display, which is essentially the same meter, and I haven't had any problems with HCFR. Are you experiencing a driver error when you try to use the program? If so, look here. I don't remember exactly what I needed to do to install the driver, but it shouldn't be a problem. If you have already loaded the driver, then what problem are you having?
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I pm'd you MechanicalMan as I appear to be taking this thread way off topic. Apologies to all.
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post #3748 of 12735 Old 04-25-2013, 04:51 PM
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Hi, Buzz. When you put your meter on the F8500, please check how the 10 point controls behave with Cell at 20 and Contrast set to give about 30 ftL peak output. This has been a problem (as you know) with the E and F series. And I think D-Nice ended up reducing Cell on a F8500 in order to get use out of all or most of the10 point control regions instead of only five or so when Cell was at 20 and Contrast reduced.

It's a very, very bright set indeed.

Larry

Hi Larry - This huge luminance increase is making calibrators scramble to find answers. I've read things from Billheimer, Davis, Miller, and Meier and they all have a few observations that somewhat differ from one another. Display size? It's new ground and I'm looking forward to seeing what I can find out including your request.

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Buzz,
Not sure if youll get a chance tomorrow but i was wondering if youd be able to run teh test described in the folowing thread if you get a chance during the calibration (pie you may want to take a look and run it yourself wink.gif )
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1415546/patterns-to-measure-mll-as-a-function-of-apl#post_22129761

Hi - I remember that post but will likely run out of time. I'll put it on my list for the next one I do. Thanks for the reminder. smile.gif

Buzz
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post #3749 of 12735 Old 04-25-2013, 04:52 PM
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^ I have the i1D3 which requires the enhanced version of HCFR apparently.

AFAIK, "i1D3" is just a name that some people use to refer to the i1Display Pro, which is almost exactly the same meter as the cheaper and crippled ColorMunki Display. Both meters are supported by Argyll CMS and HCFR 3.0.4. If someone has mentioned an "enhanced" HCFR, they are presumably just talking about the latest versions that were released by a new maintainer last year. It is still free software, and the newest version does support the i1Display Pro.


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post #3750 of 12735 Old 04-25-2013, 05:20 PM
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Bang on +1.
Totally agree with you.
This even applies for eyeball calibrations.

Thats what I meant.

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