Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 145 - AVS Forum
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post #4321 of 12871 Old 05-02-2013, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cronuskronos View Post


I wonder when THX became the ultimate decider of pic quality, No one said that

It is quite true black level is an important parameter but so are the many other parameters.

Black level is the most important parameter for image fidelity.

Oh, and about THX, or at least THX video training, look here (should be public access).

I think the F8500 will do well as a replacement for my VT50 up north. The room begs for display lumanance. On the other hand, unless there are some large faults with the ZT60, one will likely show up in my FL light controlled mancave when I get back in October.
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post #4322 of 12871 Old 05-02-2013, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

.

Yes and I specifically stated, 'IMO'

Yes, I know. I've seen your opinions on how to set Sharpness and that if YOU can't see the bad color tracking on the Elite that makes it okay.

But, this is supposed to be a science forum.
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post #4323 of 12871 Old 05-02-2013, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cronuskronos View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

I repeat.
That's your opinion. It's THX's "opinion" that black level is the most important thing, among others.


holman created THX certification primarily for audio which ensured the movie theaters played it how Lucas wanted.

I wonder when THX became the ultimate decider of pic quality, in fact most THX certified speakers that i have listened were too disappointing and the same applied to THX certified displays.

I think THX certified certain IPS based LG LCD TV's so i am not sure if they were that impressive with blacks.I guess THX these days is another way to market products specially when you have THX certified wires and cables smile.gif

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2942

It is quite true black level is an important parameter but so are the many other parameters.

Yup. It was a THX 'certfied' Sharp Elite that had the dreaded cyan error. So much for THX. I place little value in that designation.

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post #4324 of 12871 Old 05-02-2013, 10:11 AM
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What is the point of having a better number when you know that the overall product is not suitable for you?

And that is applicable to everyone. In other words:
- What is the importance of brightness level of F8500 in case you are watching the TV in a cave?
- What is the importance of black level of ZT in case you will be watching the TV in a brightly lit room?

The shootout results might be significant for the ones who care for black levels, but they are insignificant for those who look for extra brightness because:
1- They will not test the TVs in a bright room
2- Other than F8500 there is no plasma in the market that advertised or claims to be bright.

For me it is as if the shootout does not even exist.

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post #4325 of 12871 Old 05-02-2013, 10:15 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cronuskronos View Post

holman created THX certification primarily for audio which ensured the movie theaters played it how Lucas wanted.

I wonder when THX became the ultimate decider of pic quality, in fact most THX certified speakers that i have listened were too disappointing and the same applied to THX certified displays.

I think THX certified certain IPS based LG LCD TV's so i am not sure if they were that impressive with blacks.I guess THX these days is another way to market products specially when you have THX certified wires and cables smile.gif

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2942

It is quite true black level is an important parameter but so are the many other parameters.
Beyond THX, the Image Science Foundation has a similar list. I'll just add it for quick reference (in order of most to least importance): Contrast ratio, color saturation, color accuracy, and resolution.
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post #4326 of 12871 Old 05-02-2013, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

Black level is the most important parameter for image fidelity.

Black level is not the most important parameter for image fidelity

seriously how can you say something like that? and you have a signature stating that you are a pro calibrator then i guess it only helps me in being more careful if i were going you ask you to calibrate my HDTV.smile.gif

Most studio's use pro IPS monitors for mastering video and editing video, these IPS monitor's have really bad black levels so you are saying that you know better than the guys editing movies in studio's?

Most phones use OLED screens which have blacks that only plasma's can dream of but still LCD based panels are rated as reference mobile displays because of their superiority in other pic parameters.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/blog/2013/03/16/contrast-ratio-vs-black-level


Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

Oh, and about THX, or at least THX video training, look here (should be public access).

I guess you did not understand my point, my point i actually don't care much about these THX certifications as these are more of marketing tools and hence this link does not change my opinion about THX, i used to have a THX certified monitor speaker for my pc audio but now i use a studio monitor which is not THX certified, i like my current monitor speaker 10x more than the THX certified speakers i used to have,so from my personal experience i have learned THX does not determine the pinnacle of quality or sometimes is not even close.
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post #4327 of 12871 Old 05-02-2013, 10:30 AM
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In a bit of a personal quandary and thought I might request the thoughts and opinions of the smart and knowledgeable folks here at AVS. I am currently in the last week of the return widow on a 60E8000. It is the 3rd Sammy plasma set I’ve tried, and to be fair overall is the best of the bunch. However on when displaying a full white screen, it does exhibit distinct although slight pinkish areas. When watching hockey for example, the non-uniformity of panel is significant enough to notice slightly darker areas in the image. If you just watch the game it is not really an issue, if you “look” for the irregularity then it’s kinda off putting.

Obviously I can easily return it. Butttt, here is the quandary, I ended up with a great price on it, like $1500 after taxes. Considering how well rounded the TV is (Smart features, quality of 3D, min display lag when using the PC trick, good handling of non-1080P sources, etc) I really think I have a high value set on my hands. However, the reviews on the VT60 & 8500 are clearly suggesting the 2013’s are a significant step up in quality versus my 2012. The main options I am considering:

1 – Keep the E8000, wait until the end of the year for the VT60 & 8500 to drop significantly and then transition into one of them. This assumes I can easily sell the E8000 at a reasonable price.

2 – Keep the E8000 and see if Samsung tech support would consider the pink-ish whites to be a panel defect which would then result in an 8500 replacement.

3 – Return the E8000 for an ST60 or F5500 and pocket the change. Then keep that set until prices drop, sell and upgrade.

4 – Return the E8000 and just wait for the VT & 8500 to drop in price.

The things I value in my experience with these HD plasmas are in order: BR picture quality, 3D picture quality, min display lag and smart features. I really think I’ll end up with a VT60 or 8500 in the end, just trying to work through the best/most sensible way to get there.

Thanks for any thought you guys and gals might have. smile.gif
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post #4328 of 12871 Old 05-02-2013, 10:31 AM
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I don't typically like to engage in driveby moderation, but you might want to take Mike's advice and stick to the topic at hand as was requested several posts/pages back. *smooch*

(PS. How long did it take you to read all 6000+ of my posts to reach your unwarranted assessment?)

i was starting to enjoy the cat fight but i do prefer sticking to the topic
i take it that the F8500 would do very well in a bright room if it's better then my 60E8000 i would be thrilled

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post #4329 of 12871 Old 05-02-2013, 10:31 AM
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So I was just on Samsungs website it has a firmware update dated May 2nd however this one I believe has the same version number ...1101.2. Is there a difference between this one and the one I got on the 30th of April? The description is the same might be answering my own question here just curious
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post #4330 of 12871 Old 05-02-2013, 10:33 AM
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For me, contrast stands out the most. Someone had an interesting article how part of this might be evolutionary in the brain as early man had to see differences between light and dark at night for basic survival. Color differences don't bother me as much, but sharpness differences do stand out a bit more to me.

However, at the end of the day, everything matters and it's pointless to argue what is most important. Try watching something with almost a zero contrast ratio or a colored movie with color at almost zero or something with totally jacked up gamma showing clay faces.

This thread is just deteriorating.

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post #4331 of 12871 Old 05-02-2013, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

For me, contrast stands out the most. Someone had an interesting article how part of this might be evolutionary in the brain as early man had to see differences between light and dark at night for basic survival. Color differences don't bother me as much, but sharpness differences do stand out a bit more to me.

However, at the end of the day, everything matters and its really pointless to argue what is most important.

I agree, contrast is most important to my eyes and provides the most detail in the picture --- but it may be that blacks play into that more than whites. Check out the vt50 thread (http://www.avsforum.com/t/1408338/official-panasonic-vt50-owners-thread/12030#post_23268391) and you'll see a great writeup by ricerocket documenting that 'sharpness' enhancements provided by the darbee darblet are just localized contrast enhancements that employ more blacks to provide more apparent 'sharpness' - they do it quite well and is based on the science of how we perceive things.
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post #4332 of 12871 Old 05-02-2013, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Halimali View Post

What is the point of having a better number when you know that the overall product is not suitable for you?

And that is applicable to everyone. In other words:
- What is the importance of brightness level of F8500 in case you are watching the TV in a cave?
- What is the importance of black level of ZT in case you will be watching the TV in a brightly lit room?

The shootout results might be significant for the ones who care for black levels, but they are insignificant for those who look for extra brightness because:
1- They will not test the TVs in a bright room
2- Other than F8500 there is no plasma in the market that advertised or claims to be bright.

For me it is as if the shootout does not even exist.

this is where i'm stuck. because for me I can take advantage of both scenarios. I love watching movies in a pitch black room, although due to the TV's that have been available to me, I've grown away from being able to do this. it just sucks too much. the only time I watch with all the lights off now is with the projector going.

anyway, this is becoming a hugely touch decision for me, because I don't know how noticeable any of these changes will be. it's entirely possible that i'll even up turning the backlight down on the Samsung so much that it actually isn't brighter than the zt60 . and having never really seen a tv any darker than the f8500(other than I guess my old CRT's) I don't know if i'll actually appreciate the darkness of the zt60. I kind of have it in my head that unless the black of another tv is totally black, like it looks off in a dark room, then the f8500 is as close as I can tell anyway. but without experience I don't know if that's true.

for me, it's a financial thing too. the 64" f8500 is about 600bux less than the 60" zt60. right in the range that i'll gladly pay it and take the drop in size to get a superior picture. but i'll be quite upset to 'waste' that much money just to buy the name and not get a noticeably better picture. i'd be flat out pissed if I somehow ended up with a worse picture, but I don't really see that happening.

so i'll be paying attention to the details of the shoot out for sure. not only how they rank them, but by how much and in what areas. and how the zt compares to the st and vt in those areas, since I won't have a zt to look at for at least 2-3 more weeks.

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post #4333 of 12871 Old 05-02-2013, 10:58 AM
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Hello everyone, I've read this entire thread and was wondering if anyone in the Upstate New York area knows where I can see a F8500 in person? I'm so envious of everyone on here who has been able to see it, especially when its also put with the VT60 or other TV's for comparison. For me, the F8500 is like Big Foot, people claim to see it but I'm not sure it exists. biggrin.gif Anyway, I live about 3.5 hours north of NYC, which seems to be the closest place to either find a Best Buy Magnolia Center or to visit Robert at VE. But this is just way too far to travel. I live an hour north of Albany and have two Best Buy stores in the Area. Neither of which have the F8500. I called one of them today as was told they will definitely not get the 64" for display because it is Magnolia only and doubt they will get either of the other sizes. I've also visited two different Sears stores with no luck. I really would love to see both the F8500 and VT60 in person. I currently have a CCFL 52" Sharp LC D62U , which I've had since it was released in 2006. I've never had any issues other than off angle viewing and some banding but TV looks great to me. I can just imagine the difference the F8500 would be compared to my Sharp.
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post #4334 of 12871 Old 05-02-2013, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by somar76 View Post

So I was just on Samsungs website it has a firmware update dated May 2nd however this one I believe has the same version number ...1101.2. Is there a difference between this one and the one I got on the 30th of April? The description is the same might be answering my own question here just curious

Its interesting that they updated it like that, only way to know for sure is to try to update and find out wink.gif

Most likely no difference though..
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post #4335 of 12871 Old 05-02-2013, 11:11 AM
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Its interesting taht they updated it like that, only way to know for sure is to try to update and find out wink.gif

i would bet that when/if they roll this fw out for the pops/flx blk issues they will not state in anyway of what it fixes. they would pretty much be shooting themselves in the foot in admitting to the issues. Samsung just won't do this. think about how sly they were to give CNET an already updated panel.

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post #4336 of 12871 Old 05-02-2013, 11:17 AM
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i would bet that when/if they roll this fw out for the pops/flx blk issues they will not state in anyway of what it fixes. they would pretty much be shooting themselves in the foot in admitting to the issues. Samsung just won't do this. think about how sly they were to give CNET an already updated panel.

No I would agree with you, it would fall under "PQ impovements" wink.gif

BTW I opened the ZIP and the modified date is still 4/25 not sure wht ti was before but I thought I would give the owners here a heads up....probably no difference and in most cases you can just wait for your set to auto update anyways wink.gif
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post #4337 of 12871 Old 05-02-2013, 11:25 AM
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Well went back to koeleman elektro in mijdrecht today, armed with the instructions how to set the eco sensor from suggestion from Florida man.

Implemented ECO Sensor setting and WOW did that set come alive what a difference UNBELIEVABLE NOW I know what the US hype is all about....man is this a nice set

Its bright its Black it Sharp its the best Plasma TV I have ever seen, bar none.

I suggest if youre needing a new TV take a look at either the PS51F8500 or the PS64F8500. You wont be sorry. Also read the 4 or 5 reviews now on this TV its just GREAT!!!!!!!

Wow

Rob
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post #4338 of 12871 Old 05-02-2013, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by cronuskronos View Post

Black level is not the most important parameter for image fidelity

seriously how can you say something like that? and you have a signature stating that you are a pro calibrator then i guess it only helps me in being more careful if i were going you ask you to calibrate my HDTV.smile.gif

Most studio's use pro IPS monitors for mastering video and editing video, these IPS monitor's have really bad black levels so you are saying that you know better than the guys editing movies in studio's?

Most phones use OLED screens which have blacks that only plasma's can dream of but still LCD based panels are rated as reference mobile displays because of their superiority in other pic parameters.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/blog/2013/03/16/contrast-ratio-vs-black-level
I guess you did not understand my point, my point i actually don't care much about these THX certifications as these are more of marketing tools and hence this link does not change my opinion about THX, i used to have a THX certified monitor speaker for my pc audio but now i use a studio monitor which is not THX certified, i like my current monitor speaker 10x more than the THX certified speakers i used to have,so from my personal experience i have learned THX does not determine the pinnacle of quality or sometimes is not even close.

Here's a quote from the article you referenced:

Bottom Line

Don’t fixate on black level. Yes, it’s important, but contrast ratio far more so. Fortunately, we measure both here.


Contrast ratio is White level divided by black level, whether ON/OFF or ANSI. For any given White level, the darkest display has the highest CR. That's all there is to it. And you'll see at the Shootout assuming they continue with the same format as last year, all displays White levels will be the same. The darkest black will be the contrast winner in that department.

Studio colorists would love to use PDP instead of IPS but unfortunately ABL makes color luminance accuracy impossible so they are stuck with poor blacks. All calibrators are aware that changes in pattern size produce changes in gamma and there is nothing that can be done about it.

And it's you who doesn't understand my point. I neither spoke of nor care about your speakers.
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post #4339 of 12871 Old 05-02-2013, 11:40 AM
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I just want to mention what you notice most when you see the F8500 next to another plasma is it's clarity and detail. That's what jumps out at you when you see it in person. To be perfectly honest, brightness was not the differentiating factor for me and although the numbers show it's much brighter, I thought the VT60 was plenty bright enough for me. But the VT60 has what I can only describe on a slight haze that the F8500 does not have, resulting in a cleaner, more detailed looking picture. That's why I chose the F8500.

What has me intrigued about the ZT60 is that the review mentioned it's incredible detail, in addition to it's great black levels. I hope that the shootout takes into account clarity and detail, because that's a factor we all can see with our own eye's and it obviously does make a difference. Maybe it's not easy to measure those factors with the instruments they will be using, so it may be ignored, but I sure hope not!
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post #4340 of 12871 Old 05-02-2013, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by somar76 View Post

So I was just on Samsungs website it has a firmware update dated May 2nd however this one I believe has the same version number ...1101.2. Is there a difference between this one and the one I got on the 30th of April? The description is the same might be answering my own question here just curious

yes it is the same and only update thus far. it was previously available (apr 30) only by usb until yesterday when it became avail to download OTA.

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post #4341 of 12871 Old 05-02-2013, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by cooknl View Post

Well went back to koeleman elektro in mijdrecht today, armed with the instructions how to set the eco sensor from suggestion from Florida man.

Implemented ECO Sensor setting and WOW did that set come alive what a difference UNBELIEVABLE NOW I know what the US hype is all about....man is this a nice set

Its bright its Black it Sharp its the best Plasma TV I have ever seen, bar none.

I suggest if youre needing a new TV take a look at either the PS51F8500 or the PS64F8500. You wont be sorry. Also read the 4 or 5 reviews now on this TV its just GREAT!!!!!!!

Wow

Rob

how sweet it is !! so glad you were able to get the issue resolved to actually see how wonderful this set truly is smile.gif

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post #4342 of 12871 Old 05-02-2013, 12:15 PM
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Thanks for the info!
How's that doing for anyone who's downloaded it?

cant say i notice anything different... no issues tho!!

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post #4343 of 12871 Old 05-02-2013, 12:22 PM
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That is what I have said exactly. And they labeled me Sammy Girl biggrin.gif
Just check how many times they mentioned that it is expensive. Did they do the same with VT60? I doubt.
thats what I was gonna say. They must have mentioned how extremely expensive it was at least 5 times in the first few paragraphs. Curious, given its the same price as the vt60. I also find it peculiar that even though they haven't reviewed the vt, he was comparing it. Huh.
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post #4344 of 12871 Old 05-02-2013, 12:30 PM
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thats what I was gonna say. They must have mentioned how extremely expensive it was at least 5 times in the first few paragraphs. Curious, given its the same price as the vt60. I also find it peculiar that even though they haven't reviewed the vt, he was comparing it. Huh.

wondered if i was the only one that noticed that too!! he did same 'similar priced' to vt... but i bet that wont be 'very expensive' in the con remarks when its reviewed!

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post #4345 of 12871 Old 05-02-2013, 12:41 PM
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I just want to mention what you notice most when you see the F8500 next to another plasma is it's clarity and detail. That's what jumps out at you when you see it in person. To be perfectly honest, brightness was not the differentiating factor for me and although the numbers show it's much brighter, I thought the VT60 was plenty bright enough for me. But the VT60 has what I can only describe on a slight haze that the F8500 does not have, resulting in a cleaner, more detailed looking picture. That's why I chose the F8500.

What has me intrigued about the ZT60 is that the review mentioned it's incredible detail, in addition to it's great black levels. I hope that the shootout takes into account clarity and detail, because that's a factor we all can see with our own eye's and it obviously does make a difference. Maybe it's not easy to measure those factors with the instruments they will be using, so it may be ignored, but I sure hope not!

I purchased a 65" VT60, after having the F8500 at home for one day. I think the VT60s ABL kicks in alot more than on the F8500, and when that happens the perceived clarity of the VT60 looks worse than the F8500.

What swung me to the VT60 was the motion handling and the better black levels. Low APL content looked better on the VT60.

I wish I could afford both sets, one for daytime and one for night.
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post #4346 of 12871 Old 05-02-2013, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Peake View Post

I purchased a 65" VT60, after having the F8500 at home for one day. I think the VT60s ABL kicks in alot more than on the F8500, and when that happens the perceived clarity of the VT60 looks worse than the F8500.

What swung me to the VT60 was the motion handling and the better black levels. Low APL content looked better on the VT60.

I wish I could afford both sets, one for daytime and one for night.

Jeff, so despite the worse ABL on the VT60, do you still feel the the VT60 is better in dark, overall? Are the blacks fairly close between both displays with the F8500 dark optimizer on?

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post #4347 of 12871 Old 05-02-2013, 12:50 PM
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No I would agree with you, it would fall under "PQ impovements" wink.gif

BTW I opened the ZIP and the modified date is still 4/25 not sure wht ti was before but I thought I would give the owners here a heads up....probably no difference and in most cases you can just wait for your set to auto update anyways wink.gif

Question is has anyone who updated noticed any differences?
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post #4348 of 12871 Old 05-02-2013, 12:57 PM
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Question is has anyone who updated noticed any differences?

I haven't noticed any with just normal cable viewing. The apps seem a little more sluggish when swiping screen to screen but honestly I couldn't tell you other than that. I didn't have any issues to begin with.

I forgot I haven't checked to see If they fixed any CEC issues I did have before. I doubt they fixed that for more compatibility with the Anynet
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post #4349 of 12871 Old 05-02-2013, 01:13 PM
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Jeff, so despite the worse ABL on the VT60, do you still feel the the VT60 is better in dark, overall? Are the blacks fairly close between both displays with the F8500 dark optimizer on?


To my eyes, watching blu-ray in the Magnolia showroom, the VT60 looked to show more detail on low APL content. It was subtle, but thats what I saw. The F8500 was worlds brighter, and appeared to "dim" much less due to ABL than the VT60. Watching The Avengers, the big battle scene at the end, the VT60 seemed to dim itself due to ABL more than what the F8500 did. For example when the shot would pan to the sky as the bad guys were flying down, the VT60 dimmed alot, the F8500 was able to maintain much higher light output.

If you are OK with "calibrated" contrast to 35-40 ft lamberts , then I think the VT60 will look better. But if you like a brighter image, then the F8500 is a no-brainer.

So my decision was based on the fact that the VT60 can get bright enough for a proper calibration, and has better blacks...so I chose it.

After I viewed both sets, I read the reviews on AVForums, and they measured the VT65 (UK version) at 11,300:1 ansi contrast. The F8500 measured 7,821:1. To me the VT60's improved contrast ratio is more important than the F8500s higher max brightness....
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post #4350 of 12871 Old 05-02-2013, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Peake View Post

To my eyes, watching blu-ray in the Magnolia showroom, the VT60 looked to show more detail on low APL content. It was subtle, but thats what I saw. The F8500 was worlds brighter, and appeared to "dim" much less due to ABL than the VT60. Watching The Avengers, the big battle scene at the end, the VT60 seemed to dim itself due to ABL more than what the F8500 did. For example when the shot would pan to the sky as the bad guys were flying down, the VT60 dimmed alot, the F8500 was able to maintain much higher light output.

If you are OK with "calibrated" contrast to 35-40 ft lamberts , then I think the VT60 will look better. But if you like a brighter image, then the F8500 is a no-brainer.

So my decision was based on the fact that the VT60 can get bright enough for a proper calibration, and has better blacks...so I chose it.

After I viewed both sets, I read the reviews on AVForums, and they measured the VT65 (UK version) at 11,300:1 ansi contrast. The F8500 measured 7,821:1. To me the VT60's improved contrast ratio is more important than the F8500s higher max brightness....

Thanks, Jeff. 33fl is my sweet spot on a 65".

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