Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 157 - AVS Forum
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post #4681 of 12514 Old 05-05-2013, 02:40 PM
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Just for reference...
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Originally Posted by shpankey View Post

Went to BB yesterday for lunch and spent an hour comparing the 8500 to the VT60, both 60" and side by side in a somewhat darkened room (well, darker than BB anyhow).

Got the assistant and we played with the setting on both panels the whole time, settling on the movie/thx settings eventually. Both of us comparing with a critical eye, as best we could.

Our impressions. This was no contest, the 8500 looked brighter, much, much more "crisp" and detailed. Black levels on both were indistinguishable in that environment. The VT60, by comparison, looked "greasy" for lack of a proper word. Like a thin layer of Crisco was applied, muddying up the detail and overall appearance. Both had the same price. But there was no contest imo, or in his. The 8500 was clearly superior. The only negative it had was if you got close enough to the 8500, there was a slight screen door effect, but you had to be very close and it wasn't really bothersome to me, as I'll never watch a tv that close anyhow.

The only (slight) edge for the Panny was black level detail was ever so slightly better, even though the black levels were not in any way blacker, you could see a few more details in the area (and not by much, not much at all).

Clearly, and I mean in a hands-down, easy pick for me kind of way... I would (and he would) pick the 8500 over the VT60. I wouldn't even hesitate for a millisecond either.

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post #4682 of 12514 Old 05-05-2013, 02:46 PM
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Just for reference...

When you say Crisco that reminds me of what others have called the oil painting effect on last years pannys.

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post #4683 of 12514 Old 05-05-2013, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by airgas1998 View Post

the other odd thing is when I go to the software update, I can't chose manual update so I can use my thumbdrive. I only have auto update on/off option and update now option. I can't use my thumbdrive as it doesn't see it. any ideas, I didn't have this issue with 1101.

Just put the update on your usb stick and plug it into your tv. Click on update now and it will ask you if you want it to search your usb stick for an update
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post #4684 of 12514 Old 05-05-2013, 03:43 PM
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Just put the update on your usb stick and plug it into your tv. Click on update now and it will ask you if you want it to search your usb stick for an update

yup, finally got it to go. not sure what the issue was as the first round with 1101 went smooth. anyway thx guys....

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post #4685 of 12514 Old 05-05-2013, 03:52 PM
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yup, finally got it to go. not sure what the issue was as the first round with 1101 went smooth. anyway thx guys....

Great! Let us know if you see any improvements.

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post #4686 of 12514 Old 05-05-2013, 04:53 PM
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Those of your with the F8500....how is the motion without Cinema Smooth? David Kat said it hitched and worsened the black levels.

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post #4687 of 12514 Old 05-05-2013, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by shpankey View Post

It's almost unbelievable to read your personal viewing of these two tv's w/ a salesman & then mine. I wrote mine having not read yours at all & I'm sure you probably didn't read mine when writing yours. We use different adjectives & verbiage but it's clear we both seen & reported the exact same things. Reading your post just reaffirms everything I wrote to myself. They read almost identically.

Yep, pretty amazing huh? To be perfectly honest, it's pretty obvious to anyone who sees it. There is something clearly better about this set than any previous plasma...and it's not black levels or any other numerical consideration. It's because the new panel design eliminates the haze, or what you refer to as greasy, that has always been a part of plasma screens. It's something new, that you can clearly see, but maybe not easily measure....that's the rub....to many, if you can't measure it, it doesn't exist.

I think many of the old timers and calibrators on this site are so used to judging plasma's based on numerical criteria they have always used, the fact that the F8500 panel design dramatically improved an area that had not previously been a consideration....ie) CLARITY, most just ignore that aspect of the set when making comparisons. It's not just here on AVS either, CNET completely ignored it as well.

It seems clear to me that if there are going any further significant advancements in plasma picture quality, it's going to require hardware advancements in the panel itself...like plasma phosphor modifications. Even the most ardent "it's all about the blacks" guy's know there must be something more...and the F8500 makes that perfectly clear to anyone with an open mind...and eyes eek.gif

Now, if the just get the bugs out...I won't have to return the !@^!@^%! thing wink.gif
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post #4688 of 12514 Old 05-05-2013, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Those of your with the F8500....how is the motion without Cinema Smooth? David Kat said it hitched and worsened the black levels.

I played The Watchmen blu ray (which someone on here said is great for testing black levels and that person is right) with Cinema smooth turned off I thought it looked really good. Now when I turned cinemasmooth on the movement seemed kinda funky so I prefer to keep it off. I think the blacks on this tv are one of its strongest points and no matter what content im watching from any source I always notice how great the blacks look. I keep black tone on the darker setting also and that helps too.

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post #4689 of 12514 Old 05-05-2013, 05:40 PM
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Yep, pretty amazing huh? To be perfectly honest, it's pretty obvious to anyone who sees it. There is something clearly better about this set than any previous plasma...and it's not black levels or any other numerical consideration. It's because the new panel design eliminates the haze, or what you refer to as greasy, that has always been a part of plasma screens. It's something new, that you can clearly see, but maybe not easily measure....that's the rub....to many, if you can't measure it, it doesn't exist.

Or, consider this. It might not be the panel. It might be the processing. Caveat: I own three of these - but if you read Darbee Darblet threads in forums everywhere you'll find the same observations. My favorite description, and one I agree with with, is that the Darbee processing "lifts a veil" and brings increased clarity to the picture. I spent several hours trying to measure it with negligible results, but did see differences when looking with a magnifying glass pixel by pixel at the borders between darker and lighter content in small areas of the screen in particular. There is something to it which cannot be denied. I'm a purist, but I like what the Darblet does.

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post #4690 of 12514 Old 05-05-2013, 05:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jackobots View Post

Yep, pretty amazing huh? To be perfectly honest, it's pretty obvious to anyone who sees it. There is something clearly better about this set than any previous plasma...and it's not black levels or any other numerical consideration. It's because the new panel design eliminates the haze, or what you refer to as greasy, that has always been a part of plasma screens. It's something new, that you can clearly see, but maybe not easily measure....that's the rub....to many, if you can't measure it, it doesn't exist.

I think many of the old timers and calibrators on this site are so used to judging plasma's based on numerical criteria they have always used, the fact that the F8500 panel design dramatically improved an area that had not previously been a consideration....ie) CLARITY, most just ignore that aspect of the set when making comparisons. It's not just here on AVS either, CNET completely ignored it as well.

It seems clear to me that if there are going any further significant advancements in plasma picture quality, it's going to require hardware advancements in the panel itself...like plasma phosphor modifications. Even the most ardent "it's all about the blacks" guy's know there must be something more...and the F8500 makes that perfectly clear to anyone with an open mind...and eyes eek.gif

Now, if the just get the bugs out...I won't have to return the !@^!@^%! thing wink.gif
It's all very interesting. There has to be a logical explanation for it (reduced dithering, smarter video processing/sharpness enhancing algorithms, or, the most likely cause, larger subpixels resulting in decreased "dead space" between them). I am not wanting for more detail on my Kuro, though. Perhaps that's because the impressive contrast ratio makes up for any desire for more detail (nor have I seen the F8500 displayed next to a Kuro).

EDIT: Having missed buzzard's post, the processing could equally be as likely (I have no Darblet frown.gif)
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post #4691 of 12514 Old 05-05-2013, 05:54 PM
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It's all very interesting. There has to be a logical explanation for it (reduced dithering, smarter video processing/sharpness enhancing algorithms, or, the most likely cause, larger subpixels resulting in decreased "dead space" between them). I am not wanting for more detail on my Kuro, though. Perhaps that's because the impressive contrast ratio makes up for any desire for more detail (nor have I seen the F8500 displayed next to a Kuro).

EDIT: Having missed buzzard's post, the processing could equally be as likely (I have no Darblet frown.gif)

THis has been the case for the past few years or as far as Samsung goes so I think it has to do with their processing and less to do with the pixel structure. Mostly its how they process non optimal content (HD Cable, SD, etc sources) Samsung just seems to be "sharper" by looks even when sharpness is set to 0. The bluminance of the set may be influenced by the increased pixel structure more than the sharpness look of the set IMO....
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post #4692 of 12514 Old 05-05-2013, 06:01 PM
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THis has been the case for the past few years or as far as Samsung goes so I think it has to do with their processing and less to do with the pixel structure. Mostly its how they process non optimal content (HD Cable, SD, etc sources) Samsung just seems to be "sharper" by looks even when sharpness is set to 0. The bluminance of the set may be influenced by the increased pixel structure more than the sharpness look of the set IMO....

I used 1080p content in my testing and it makes a difference.

Edit: Misread your post but must add that I own a Samsung PN51D8000 PDP and there is nothing special about clarity that I can see.
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post #4693 of 12514 Old 05-05-2013, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

Or, consider this. It might not be the panel. It might be the processing. Caveat: I own three of these - but if you read Darbee Darblet threads in forums everywhere you'll find the same observations. My favorite description, and one I agree with with, is that the Darbee processing "lifts a veil" and brings increased clarity to the picture. I spent several hours trying to measure it with negligible results, but did see differences when looking with a magnifying glass pixel by pixel at the borders between darker and lighter content in small areas of the screen in particular. There is something to it which cannot be denied. I'm a purist, but I like what the Darblet does.


This white paper http://darbeevision.com/assets/documents/DarbeeVision%20Whitepaper%20with%20Tech%20Details%2020120415.pdf on the http://darbeevision.com/ home page explains the processing in detail. Accurate examples of enhanced pictures are available in the Gallery http://darbeevision.com/gallery .

In the weeks that my wife and I have viewed Darbee enhanced images it seems that we have learned to expect the 3D cues the Darbee processing adds to 2D images. The processing works on a single frame so it enhances all HDMI images including 3D source images.

We have tried moving the DVP 5000 Darblet HDMI input cable, connecting it directly to our PN60F8500. It is now hard to watch any unenhanced source for long.
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post #4694 of 12514 Old 05-05-2013, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by JRWalker View Post




This white paper http://darbeevision.com/assets/documents/DarbeeVision%20Whitepaper%20with%20Tech%20Details%2020120415.pdf on the http://darbeevision.com/ home page explains the processing in detail. Accurate examples of enhanced pictures are available in the Gallery http://darbeevision.com/gallery .

In the weeks that my wife and I have viewed Darbee enhanced images it seems that we have learned to expect the 3D cues the Darbee processing adds to 2D images. The processing works on a single frame so it enhances all HDMI images including 3D source images.

We have tried moving the DVP 5000 Darblet HDMI input cable, connecting it directly to our PN60F8500. It is now hard to watch any unprocessed source for long.

The industry is taking note. The new Lumagen Processor is using the tech. Direct link - http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Radiance_2021_Brochure_030313.pdf

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post #4695 of 12514 Old 05-05-2013, 06:53 PM
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It's all very interesting. There has to be a logical explanation for it (reduced dithering, smarter video processing/sharpness enhancing algorithms, or, the most likely cause, larger subpixels resulting in decreased "dead space" between them). I am not wanting for more detail on my Kuro, though. Perhaps that's because the impressive contrast ratio makes up for any desire for more detail (nor have I seen the F8500 displayed next to a Kuro).

EDIT: Having missed buzzard's post, the processing could equally be as likely (I have no Darblet frown.gif)

why does everyone keep talking about Kuro isn't that an old TV that went out of business???? how can i put it next to a F8500 or even care you can't buy them anymore unless it's used and most likely well used so why spend time comparing it to a kuro
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post #4696 of 12514 Old 05-05-2013, 07:02 PM
 
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Because it set a benchmark and reference in PQ that has yet to be surpassed to this day (without the viewing artifacts present in LED technology), mainly in the low mll department. Pioneer didn't go out of business, though they did stop making televisions because of the high cost to make them combined with the economic downturn. Also, quite a few AVSers are present owners and would like to upgrade to something that is far and away better than what they currently have (or, at least, on par and at a greater size). No shame in that.
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post #4697 of 12514 Old 05-05-2013, 07:10 PM
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THis has been the case for the past few years or as far as Samsung goes so I think it has to do with their processing and less to do with the pixel structure. Mostly its how they process non optimal content (HD Cable, SD, etc sources) Samsung just seems to be "sharper" by looks even when sharpness is set to 0. The bluminance of the set may be influenced by the increased pixel structure more than the sharpness look of the set IMO....

Just have to mention that you can see the improved clarity rather easily when you see it next to an E8000. Both have similar sharpness, but you can clearly see the haze on the E8000 when you see it next to the F8500. The change in pixel structure does improve clarity...for sure, at least to my eyes. It's pretty obvious when you see it next to another plasma....Samsung's included.

What is going to be the most interesting topic at this years shootout, for me at least, is to see if Panasonic will get similar results by totally removing the gas layer from the ZT60 panel. I know the panel will be thinner and the black levels will be slightly improved, but I'm most curious if there will be an improvement in clarity. They certainly indicate that on their web site. If it's true, it's going to be very hard to resist.

So please, anyone going to the shootout, if you could provide a comparison between the ZT60 and the F8500 from a clarity perspective, it would be greatly appreciated biggrin.gif
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post #4698 of 12514 Old 05-05-2013, 07:17 PM
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Because it set a benchmark and reference in PQ that has yet to be surpassed to this day (without the viewing artifacts present in LED technology), mainly in the low mll department. Pioneer didn't go out of business, though they did stop making televisions because of the high cost to make them combined with the economic downturn. Also, quite a few AVSers are present owners and would like to upgrade to something that is far and away better than what they currently have (or, at least, on par and at a greater size). No shame in that.
the kuro is gone so hang on to yours. glad you have one we will just have to make do with what we have before all plasmas are also gone

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post #4699 of 12514 Old 05-05-2013, 07:22 PM
 
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It's only 50", and that may no longer be necessary as of this year (to be confirmed in less than a week). wink.gif
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post #4700 of 12514 Old 05-05-2013, 07:26 PM
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So please, anyone going to the shootout, if you could provide a comparison between the ZT60 and the F8500 from a clarity perspective, it would be greatly appreciated biggrin.gif

I'll certainly be looking for that, but every time I've seen a VT60 vs an 8500, the 8500 looks sharper.

However today I was a bit disappointed in my trip to Magnolia today. I did another 8500 vs VT60 comparison. I found modes in the VT that do make the panel pretty bright...not as bright as the 8500 but probably bright enough for most conditions. Interestingly, on this VT60 all the modes were unlocked and there are quite a few.

But here's the disturbing thing I found. I was cupping my hands around the letterbox bars on both panels (both playing the same Blu Ray and both via component, not HDMI) and thought I saw a fairly visible difference in black levels favoring the VT. This is something I hadn't noticed before.

To be sure (like a fool) I took off a light jacket I was wearing and put it over my head and the panel (no, there was nobody around). There was a fairly significant difference in black levels. The VT was very very dark and, disturbingly, not only was the 8500 not as dark, but I saw fluctuations in the darkness of the letterbox bars as scene content changed.

I know a couple of people spoke about that here, but this was the first time I saw it myself. I don't recall seeing that at Robert's store either.

So now I'm not quite as sure about the 8500 and beginning to think a bit more about the ZT60. On the flip side, the 8500 handled bright lighting better (no surprises there) in terms of how it looks while displaying blacks. The VT, although definitely darker when I blanketed it with my jacket, looks more washed out with ambient lighting striking the screen. In fact the difference here was striking. The VT's black letterbox bars looked almost greenish as ambient light struck the panel. Yet the 8500 retained a much better looking 'blackness' in those same letterbox bars in the same lighting. I'm not sure if the bonded screen of the ZT would help in that regard.

As a result of the better handling of ambient lights, the 8500 displayed a poppier, more impressive picture. This would almost certainly flip around in favor of the VT60, based on what I saw with the my jacket-shielded letterbox bars, when the lights are down.

I noticed no popping on the F8500 during my viewing session.

The shootout can't come quick enough. smile.gif
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post #4701 of 12514 Old 05-05-2013, 07:36 PM
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So now I'm not quite as sure about the 8500 and beginning to think a bit more about the ZT60. On the flip side, the 8500 handled bright lighting better (no surprises there) in terms of how it looks while displaying blacks. The VT, although definitely darker when I blanketed it with my jacket, looks more washed out with ambient lighting striking the screen. In fact the difference here was striking. The VT's black letterbox bars looked almost greenish as ambient light struck the panel. Yet the 8500 retained a much better looking 'blackness' in those same letterbox bars in the same lighting. I'm not sure if the bonded screen of the ZT would help in that regard.

As a result of the better handling of ambient lights, the 8500 displayed a poppier, more impressive picture. This would almost certainly flip around in favor of the VT60, based on what I saw with the my jacket-shielded letterbox bars, when the lights are down.

I noticed no popping on the F8500 during my viewing session.

The shootout can't come quick enough. smile.gif

Yes, Ken, perhaps different displays for different environments, eh? Looking forward to seeing the back of your head on the Shootout stream.... lololol

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post #4702 of 12514 Old 05-05-2013, 07:59 PM
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Yes, Ken, perhaps different displays for different environments, eh? Looking forward to seeing the back of your head on the Shootout stream.... lololol

No surprises there, I always knew these units had different strengths manifesting themselves in different environments. But it was the first time I saw the visible difference in black levels. Sharpness and pop in bight light still went to the 8500.
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post #4703 of 12514 Old 05-05-2013, 08:22 PM
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this is my biggest concern with the f8500. everything I've been able to view at the store as impressed me so far. my friend was able to install the f8500 in their projector room and turned off all the lighting for me to view. it was still a 3-walled room, so not man cave, but darker than any other showroom I've been in. I did not notice any 'problems' with the blacks, but I did notice the blacks didn't look 'black' anymore. still looked as dark as I've ever seen(they didn't have a vt60 in stock yet to compare) but i'm worried that if I noticed the change under those conditions, it MAY be more than I want to put up with at home.

I doubt very much i'll notice fluctuating blacks as long as they get brighter when the screen material gets brighter. but if viewing the tv in the dark gets rid of the 'black is off' look too much, I might have to wait out for the zt60.

I just honestly don't know exactly how picky I am. on one hand It's something I've not been satisfied with any of my current TV's. but on the other hand, I did have an LED for about a week and thought I loved the black levels aside from the flashlighting/clouding, so maybe I don't need any darker than the f8500. time will tell, should be picking up the f8500 for in-home viewing tomorrow:D

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post #4704 of 12514 Old 05-05-2013, 08:25 PM
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ahhhhhhhhhh the pitfalls of getting in deep with avs !! wink.gif its funny how in just a few short months how critical ive become!

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post #4705 of 12514 Old 05-05-2013, 10:40 PM
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why does everyone keep talking about Kuro isn't that an old TV that went out of business???? how can i put it next to a F8500 or even care you can't buy them anymore unless it's used and most likely well used so why spend time comparing it to a kuro
To me this is like comparing blurays to HD DVDs.
Comparing a very living product to a dead one will do nothing.
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post #4706 of 12514 Old 05-06-2013, 03:19 AM
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I viewed a non-calibrated F8500 in a near-dark room yesterday. I didn't care to tinker with the settings as it was sort of a "just passing through" scenario, but I couldn't believe the brightness output on this thing! When it came to a mixed scene (a concert with stage lighting) it literally hurt my eyes. The black level, however, looked superb! I am NOT a fan of a bright picture, but for those who are I don't see how anyone could be disappointed with this television.
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post #4707 of 12514 Old 05-06-2013, 03:53 AM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

I just honestly don't know exactly how picky I am. on one hand It's something I've not been satisfied with any of my current TV's. but on the other hand, I did have an LED for about a week and thought I loved the black levels aside from the flashlighting/clouding, so maybe I don't need any darker than the f8500. time will tell, should be picking up the f8500 for in-home viewing tomorrow:D

Therein lies my problem too. I'm coming from a 60" Elite, full array, local dimming LED, which will move to the bedroom. The Elite's blacks are black, whether full screen or, certainly with mixed content. In fact, in a pitch black room, you can only notice the slightest amount of light coming from the screen when displaying full-screen black. I'm talking really slight.

I don't think any of these current panels can do that. I suspect, based on what I saw at the Panasonic show, even the ZT will force me to take a slight hit in black levels. I don't want to take a significant hit, I know I'll notice it.

The best I could do in simulating a dark room, was when I took a blanket to Robert's store and made a makeshift tent. Since you're right on top of the screen, it's not an ideal way to make judgements, but nonetheless it did look good.

We'll see what the shootout shows.
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post #4708 of 12514 Old 05-06-2013, 04:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Halimali View Post

To me this is like comparing blurays to HD DVDs.
Comparing a very living product to a dead one will do nothing.

thank you i couldn't have said it better like the king bragging i have one and you don't and you never will have one as good as mine.

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post #4709 of 12514 Old 05-06-2013, 04:30 AM
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It's really no different than comparing a 5-year-old Ferrari to a current Corvette. That older Ferrari may still surpass the Corvette in many ways. The point to me is that the Kuros were the best of breed at the time and any set that claims to be the best should be able to beat it. Kuros are references; that is all. The fact that you can't buy (a new) one is irrelevant. It's about being a reference.

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post #4710 of 12514 Old 05-06-2013, 04:42 AM
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It's really no different than comparing a 5-year-old Ferrari to a current Corvette. That older Ferrari may still surpass the Corvette in many ways. The point to me is that the Kuros were the best of breed at the time and any set that claims to be the best should be able to beat it. Kuros are references; that is all. The fact that you can't buy (a new) one is irrelevant. It's about being a reference.

true but that reference is getting old kuros are getting old and the color can't be as good as they were. over years of use like the Ferrari it may still be a Ferrari but with years of use it may not be the same today it's just an old Ferrari.

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