Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 190 - AVS Forum
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post #5671 of 12604 Old 05-12-2013, 03:29 AM
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I wouldn't really count on the future Evolution kits to provide support for HDMI 2.0. I know they have one ready for the next year which will support 4K.
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post #5672 of 12604 Old 05-12-2013, 03:29 AM
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Originally Posted by KOF View Post

I'm a hardcore gamer and I want BOTH the brightness that Samsung F8500 and Panasonic ST60 provide, and low input lag that they both do not. I've seen the VT60, and it's brightness and ABL were hideous. I would rather play my games on my Sony BVM then play them on the VT60. I will either wait for firmware updates that remedy the input lag issue on both F8500 and the ST60 or wait for the next year's models. It's too bad really...The ST60 and the F8500 are really lovely plasmas.
Yeah we were very lucky in getting the GT60 in Europe which has 40ms input lag as well as the ST60 brightness.
Unfortunately it only goes up to 50".
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post #5673 of 12604 Old 05-12-2013, 03:30 AM
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I actually stayed up until like 3am smile.gif
Well worth it, especially now that the day2 replay isn't up yet, I would've been going MAD by now if I hadn't seen it live haha.
Unfortunately I did expect it to be there so I closed the stream and went to bed before they finalized scoring.
This doesn't really matter to me though as I did get to see most of the tests and the F8500 does very well indeed.
One thing I noticed through the camera was that the F8500 appears to flicker less, which is interesting.
Really hope they put it online though!

For us Europeans I think the GT60 will be the best buy up to 50 inch, going 50+" it would depend on your environment:

Gamer and dark room ?
Panasonic (be careful of possible fan noise).

Don't mind a bit of input lag ?
Samsung

This is what I will probably be recommending my friends who come to me for advice.

Well I am sorry I went to bed and missed most of the second day, but was betting on the 2nd day stream to be up today.....ohh well such is live.

Anyway I have allready decided to get the F8500 it does not flicker like the pana, briteness is much better, and the SmartHub is a big plus, and ofcourse you get a 51 inch compared to 50 inch with pana, as far as PQ is concerned I think u cant beat the F8500.

Rob
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post #5674 of 12604 Old 05-12-2013, 03:33 AM
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Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

There has not been any issues with calibrating a Samsung plasma -- at least for the D, E, and now the F models. They are a dream to work on. The colors all came out with dEs below 1.5. The saturation tracking was great and looked about the same as shown in the shootout.

Larry

Thanks Larry.

So you didn't notice any slight red bias as I saw in some scenes at the shootout? There were several scenes where I thought there was just a bit more red than the Panasonics. I asked Kevin about it and he said it calibrated perfectly.

Yet during Skyfall I saw no difference at all.
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post #5675 of 12604 Old 05-12-2013, 03:41 AM
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Thanks Larry.

So you didn't notice any slight red bias as I saw in some scenes at the shootout? There were several scenes where I thought there was just a bit more red than the Panasonics. I asked Kevin about it and he said it calibrated perfectly.

Yet during Skyfall I saw no difference at all.
I saw that too, I believe they said it was due to the sammy's higher brightness?
Bit strange as the Kuro bottom left was also supposedly calibrated to 40fl which doesn't appear to have that same "red" flavour.
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post #5676 of 12604 Old 05-12-2013, 03:49 AM
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Originally Posted by thebigkahuna1 View Post

I really don't understand Dwayne's statement that the F8500 is not sharper, bias or not. I've seen both the F8500 and the VT several times and stand by what my eyes see. The Samsung is clearly sharper. That is the primary reason I'm going with this set. He also said there is more dithering with this set. Again, I just don't see that.

Interestingly, if you read my post of about a month ago, I was at Robert's store with D-Nice and we looked closely at a calibrated 8500 vs a calibrated VT50. We both agreed, without question, the 8500 was sharper.

We even froze frames during the Dark Knight and clearly saw more detail in the 8500. We both agreed on that. In fact, I'd say this wasn't 'apparent sharpness', this was simply more detail.

I see the same differences with the VT60. So it seems D-Nice may have changed his opinion or he feels the VT60 is sharper than the VT50. Not sure which. But my eyes, like yours, see what they see. Hard to miss IMO.
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post #5677 of 12604 Old 05-12-2013, 04:09 AM
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Jackobots, then we're both guilty of the same thing. Look, some of the calibrators knocked the Sharp Elite, but yet I couldn't be happier with it.

Sometimes I really feel they can get so mired in their test data or fixate on one thing, that they don't look at the picture the way we do. I think they tend to look at the picture more through the eyes of their data and we just look at the picture through our eyes period. I'm not saying the data isn't valuable, but in the end it's our eyes and not the data that tell us what's right or wrong. Some of the data doesn't easily translate to visible flaws and yet IMO some of the data doesn't show an issue we may see with our eyes.

As I say, IMO this works both ways. I love Kevin and his work and he insisted the 8500 calibrated perfectly, yet I saw a bit of a red bias in some scenes. At times I think I was the only one that saw it since most of the calibrators didn't. Where I saw it, I thought it was clearly there. I could see it in the sand of Lawrence of Arabia. Yet during Skyfall they all looked identical to me.

The data didn't suggest this, but I saw it on occasion. I'd bet though, without an A/B, we'd never pick it up. Likewise, the data doesn't suggest the 8500 has greater sharpness then the VT/ZT, but most of us see it pretty easily.

Fun stuff, but in the end I trust my eyes. It's the only way to buy a display and it's the real reason why people should buy these things based on what they see, not what others say.

BTW, I don't want to overplay the red bias thing as it wasn't there for most scenes and when it was, it wasn't a big deal. I mentioned it more to show data is one thing and our eyes are something else. smile.gif
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post #5678 of 12604 Old 05-12-2013, 04:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigkahuna1 View Post

I really don't understand Dwayne's statement that the F8500 is not sharper, bias or not. I've seen both the F8500 and the VT several times and stand by what my eyes see. The Samsung is clearly sharper. That is the primary reason I'm going with this set. He also said there is more dithering with this set. Again, I just don't see that.

don't worry i see this as well, and always have seen this on the Samsung's. David said the same thing last night about that as well. he also went on to say check it out with some of the resolution tests. i know what my eyes see.wink.gif

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post #5679 of 12604 Old 05-12-2013, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

Actually Samsung said something like this as well, both came up a tad short. Close enough in my book though wink.gif

I mean honestly....who could even tell if one had a sammy/panny in the living room, and a kuro in the bedroom??? People need to understand those measurements are sooooo close that they really dont matter. We now have 4 panels that are almost as good as a kuro in mll, along with being better in other areas. Its a GREAT year for plasma!
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post #5680 of 12604 Old 05-12-2013, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by yamvmax View Post

I mean honestly....who could even tell if one had a sammy/panny in the living room, and a kuro in the bedroom??? People need to understand those measurements are sooooo close that they really dont matter. We now have 4 panels that are almost as good as a kuro in mll, along with being better in other areas. Its a GREAT year for plasma!


I could not agree more with you....

however...understand that splitting hairs is very important to many in AVS forum...for one reason or another...tongue.gif

any of the top 3 are so good that the superiority differences are going to be 99% subjective

that being said

A.why would anyone spend an extra $500-800 for a ZT?....for the minute differences( and some deficiencies) of the VT vs ZT I think one could put that money in their HT audio and have a better all around solution

B.Clearly...the Samsung is the bright room winner with an aggressive filter and brightness. IMO..Samsung is after some of the other 88-90% of the market that buys LCD's. A smart move to try to capture some additional sales from the majority of the flat panel market

C. The ST60 could be the real winner?...does anything even come close to it for that price?. A lot of tests seems like they are splitting hairs with the ST60 with TV's that are $1000 more....
again..I have to say drop that extra money in the HT audio and that would make a for a overall HT experience



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post #5681 of 12604 Old 05-12-2013, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by yamvmax View Post

I mean honestly....who could even tell if one had a sammy/panny in the living room, and a kuro in the bedroom??? People need to understand those measurements are sooooo close that they really dont matter. We now have 4 panels that are almost as good as a kuro in mll, along with being better in other areas. Its a GREAT year for plasma!

+1
Let's face it blacks on all these panels are close enough to call it a wash, but when it comes to brightness, sharpness and versatility only one panel stands out above the others...
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post #5682 of 12604 Old 05-12-2013, 05:45 AM
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I apologize if this has been discussed to death but how bad is the input lag on F8500? I am in need of a new TV and unfortunately the way I have my room laid out it has to opposite my big front window so this leads to quite a bit of glare on the TV. All the reviews seem to say the F8500 is the king of bright room plasmas but I play quite a few games and input lag will drive me nuts, is it a real problem with this series or just something people are over exaggerating? Also I have seen talk about it getting fixed with a firmware update, is this a confirmed fix that will be coming down the line or just hopes and dreams?
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post #5683 of 12604 Old 05-12-2013, 06:03 AM
 
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^its pretty bad for games right now.
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post #5684 of 12604 Old 05-12-2013, 06:05 AM
 
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Have any cal values been released yet? I'm very interested to read up.
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post #5685 of 12604 Old 05-12-2013, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Pinger View Post

+1


Let's face it blacks on all these panels are close enough to call it a wash, but when it comes to brightness, sharpness and versatility only one panel stands out above the others...

brightness....on a calibrated set would be minimal right?

sharpness and versatility are subjective


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post #5686 of 12604 Old 05-12-2013, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post

brightness....on a calibrated set would be minimal right?

sharpness and versatility are subjective


Warren

Not really. Not when the ABL kicks in to a much greater degree on plasmas other than the 8500. Just watch any content with lots of bright material. I don't care how you have the displays set for brightness, the Samsung will maintain the called upon brightness in the signal much better than the others as the signal gets brighter and brighter over a larger % of the screen.

I have no idea if they did any tests like that last night (full 16:9 hockey, scenes with lots of snow or brightness etc.) If not, then that's an aspect (ABL) that wasn't explored nearly enough IMO.

As for sharpness, I don't see much subjectivity when one display clearly shows facial marks and the other blurs them to a significant degree. The sharpness is there and you may not like it, but for me, "HD" was always about trying to get all that detail out.
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post #5687 of 12604 Old 05-12-2013, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Not really. Not when the ABL kicks in to a much greater degree on plasmas other than the 8500. Just watch any content with lots of bright material. I don't care how you have the displays set for brightness, the Samsung will maintain the called upon brightness in the signal much better than the others as the signal gets brighter and brighter over a larger % of the screen.

I have no idea if they did any tests like that last night (full 16:9 hockey, scenes with lots of snow or brightness etc.) If not, then that's an aspect (ABL) that wasn't explored nearly enough IMO.

As for sharpness, I don't see much subjectivity when one display clearly shows facial marks and the other blurs them to a significant degree. The sharpness is there and you may not like it, but for me, "HD" was always about trying to get all that detail out.

I would have thought the lawrence of Arabia used in the shootout would have been the material to show up any ABL brightness differences between the panels.
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post #5688 of 12604 Old 05-12-2013, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Not really. Not when the ABL kicks in to a much greater degree on plasmas other than the 8500. Just watch any content with lots of bright material. I don't care how you have the displays set for brightness, the Samsung will maintain the called upon brightness in the signal much better than the others as the signal gets brighter and brighter over a larger % of the screen.

I have no idea if they did any tests like that last night (full 16:9 hockey, scenes with lots of snow or brightness etc.) If not, then that's an aspect (ABL) that wasn't explored nearly enough IMO.

As for sharpness, I don't see much subjectivity when one display clearly shows facial marks and the other blurs them to a significant degree. The sharpness is there and you may not like it, but for me, "HD" was always about trying to get all that detail out.

I agree that the Samsung is brighter
and I dont think any of that was tested in their material last night...I watched it and I dont recall

the biggest plus here is ..IMO....bright room performance

In a real world scenario those with large windows in the room can now enjoy plasma...as I said before from a marketing standpoint ,kudos to Samsung as it might allow them to capture some of the other 90% of the market that buys LCDs

In regard to other issues...sharpness etc...one can go to the VT forum and read someone saying they see the exact opposite of what you do

I am a Samsung guy(C8000,E8000 and a couple of edge lits) and have been for years...though I own an ST50 as well

I still stand by the opinion that there is more subjectivity involved here among the top 3 than anything else....and that the ST60 is the buy of the year it seems

so close to the others and $1000 less


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brightness....on a calibrated set would be minimal right?

sharpness and versatility are subjective


Warren

Respectfully disagree Warren.. I think most would BUT to the hardcore bat cave dwellers it might be different (bat cave dwellers was not meant in a derogatory sense, I know there are some who enjoy their TV in a total black environment and to their eyes blacks can never be black enough).
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post #5690 of 12604 Old 05-12-2013, 06:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by yamvmax View Post

I mean honestly....who could even tell if one had a sammy/panny in the living room, and a kuro in the bedroom??? People need to understand those measurements are sooooo close that they really dont matter. We now have 4 panels that are almost as good as a kuro in mll, along with being better in other areas. Its a GREAT year for plasma!
LOL, I agree. This is AVS though and a hair is a hair.


Last week we bought a sub zero freezer. The display on the outside was off by 1 degree compared to my super duper thermometer on the inside that was imported from china and is guaranteed to be 100% accurate, I took the freezer back. I feel my measuring devise may not be up to par though. but never the less my food is on ice. My quest continues...... biggrin.gif Just kidding........
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post #5691 of 12604 Old 05-12-2013, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Pinger View Post

Respectfully disagree Warren.. I think most would BUT to the hardcore bat cave dwellers it might be different (bat cave dwellers was not meant in a derogatory sense, I know there are some who enjoy their TV in a total black environment and to their eyes blacks can never be black enough).

agreed

believe me I see the brightness capability of the Samsung being a HUGE selling point to get at the other 90% of the market that buys LCD TV's

The other stuff...especially black level is either splitting hairs or subjective



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post #5692 of 12604 Old 05-12-2013, 07:04 AM
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this shootout these guys had their minds made up before the shootout that the panasonic would be tops but they were pleasanty pleased that the f8500 was right there with them and we are talking about hair splitting just like they said it all depends on your prefference is. how it would look in your viewing enviroment and you couldn't go wrong with what ever your choice is, i personally like the all around versatility of the f8500 smart hub brightness blacks and 3D

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post #5693 of 12604 Old 05-12-2013, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Thanks Larry.

So you didn't notice any slight red bias as I saw in some scenes at the shootout? There were several scenes where I thought there was just a bit more red than the Panasonics. I asked Kevin about it and he said it calibrated perfectly.

Yet during Skyfall I saw no difference at all.

Remember the old adage: Samsungs tend towards Red, Sonys tend towards Green, LGs towards Blue, Sharpes tend towards Yellow, Panasonics tend towards ?
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post #5694 of 12604 Old 05-12-2013, 07:25 AM
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Can anyone test for me that uses cable settop boxes when you go to smart hub on main TV screen at the bottom you will see "Guide" when you go into the guide you will see in upper right it will list your input and If if you try and go to a channel on the guide does it work correctly for you?

Update: If anyone is interested I fixed it by going to the Menu/Smart Features/OnTv settings and ran the setup there to get it on the correct Input but the Tv guide by Samsung for cable settop boxes is useless because everytime I use guide button on the samsung remote it starts at channel 1 instead of last channel so I have to scroll back to wherever I was to get to a new channel which isn't easy swiping. When I go to Menu/Broadcasting then channel edit and delete channels they still show up in the guide they just don't give the information for those channels. So, they still have some work to do on some of these features to get it right.
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post #5695 of 12604 Old 05-12-2013, 07:28 AM
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Hello, I have a question about the Bluetooth connectivity
Can Sony Bluetooth headphones MDR-1RBT be paired with the Samsung pn64f8500 TV?
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post #5696 of 12604 Old 05-12-2013, 07:38 AM
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Quick question about the evo unit upgrade. I have read that these units could conceivably lead to better picture quality down the road on the f8500 and I just wanted to make sure that this was the cas, because I didn't hear the Samsung guy mention it during the shoot out. I that's the case, I think that this is a big advantage for the f8500. I'm curious as to how this would work. Is this a software thing? If so, does this mean a set would need to be recalibrated after installing one? It seems that it's a relatively cheap way to extend the life and add value to the f8500.

I'm looking to buy in about a month and I can't make up my mind between the f8500 and the vt60. I have only owned Panasonic, but I have no problem going to Samsung. I have seen both models in five separate show rooms and came away with a different impression each time. In two of these stores, the vt60 clearly looked better and the f8500 clearly looked better in two others. In the last one they both looked like crap, as did every other tv there. Thanks fior he help.

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post #5697 of 12604 Old 05-12-2013, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by hogues View Post

Quick question about the evo unit upgrade. I have read that these units could conceivably lead to better picture quality down the road on the f8500 and I just wanted to make sure that this was the cas, because I didn't hear the Samsung guy mention it during the shoot out. I that's the case, I think that this is a big advantage for the f8500. I'm curious as to how this would work. Is this a software thing? If so, does this mean a set would need to be recalibrated after installing one? It seems that it's a relatively cheap way to extend the life and add value to the f8500.

I'm looking to buy in about a month and I can't make up my mind between the f8500 and the vt60. I have only owned Panasonic, but I have no problem going to Samsung. I have seen both models in five separate show rooms and came away with a different impression each time. In two of these stores, the vt60 clearly looked better and the f8500 clearly looked better in two others. In the last one they both looked like crap, as did every other tv there. Thanks fior he help.

The Samsung guy did mention on Friday night the picture quality could be improved with the evo unit - so long as the improvements are software based. I would imagine this would require a re-cal depending on the change though. Of course, nothing can be done from a hardware perspective. I would be curious how much more potential the F8500 would have with the evo units. Even if slight, I think that is pretty cool.

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post #5698 of 12604 Old 05-12-2013, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

The Samsung guy did mention on Friday night the picture quality could be improved with the evo unit - so long as the improvements are software based. I would imagine this would require a re-cal depending on the change though. Of course, nothing can be done from a hardware perspective. I would be curious how much more potential the F8500 would have with the evo units. Even if slight, I think that is pretty cool.
so it is the same as 2012 e8000 buy it and the evolution kit will keep you up to date they promised but all it does correct me if im wrong all it gives you is a new smart hub and a quad core processor to keep up with it. if it was just a software thing to improve PQ wouldn't they do that now so i'm thinking each year the hardware will change

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post #5699 of 12604 Old 05-12-2013, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by bargervais View Post

so it is the same as 2012 e8000 buy it and the evolution kit will keep you up to date they promised but all it does correct me if im wrong give you a new smart hub and a quad processor to keep up. if it was just a software thing to improve PQ wouldn't they do that now so i'm thinking each year the hardware will change

Yeah, hard to say.

I would never buy the F8500 in the hopes of continuous improvement via the evo kit. I would look at that potential benefit as a nice to have.

But, the F8500 was built from ground up and I would imagine it will be largely the same next year from a hardware standpoint...speculating, of course.

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post #5700 of 12604 Old 05-12-2013, 08:16 AM
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Hello there again Ken. In thinking about what I saw Friday night, it is clear to me that the 8500 at the shootout clearly had some sort of red push. Was it subtle, yes but I saw it on most material, if not all. The problem is that unless you have another set next to it, you really won't notice. The same is true of the Pannys. They had a bluish/green push. Again, it was subtle but there on everything. The difference sin the sets was the clearest on the Bulls heat game that we had on for awhile. On the 8500, the court and Bulls uniforms were too red. On the ZT and VT 60, a bit too blue. Of course the 500M was spot on. Seeing them all in the same line of sight at the same time showed the differences. But again, most people, most of the time would NEVER notice these issues with one set alone. Clearly, at least with these 3 samples, there were greyscale tracking issues. I also found interesting and of note, the fact that the 8500 did have better whites. They were not blue at all bit looked perfect to me. This was especially noticeable on the checkerboard pattern. The Panny's had a browner look to the whites. Again the whites on the 500M looked the same as the 8500. I must say that overall, I was impressed with all of the plasmas on display. None however, was a Kuro killer, at least as so far as the 500M was concerned. I have a 141 and have NO interest in changing panels at this point. At least, as of now, were something to happen to my 141, I would be happy to have either an 8500 or a VT or ZT 60. Perhaps whould Sammy or Panny decide to come out with a 70" panel, I may reconsider, but no 64 or 65 inches. It is great to see the flat panel tech continually improving even if the Kuro as not been dethroned, at least not yet. The LED's looked very nice also except for the Panny but frankly, at least for me, still a notch below the plasmas, but getting there too. Frankly, the battle was almost a bit too close to call and depends on what you need the panels for and your lighting environment. Hopefully, these improvements will continue into the 2014 model year.
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