Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 214 - AVS Forum
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post #6391 of 12291 Old 05-18-2013, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

A quick question. Are you guys still getting the error message re the camera when the camera is tucked in and the TV is first turned on?
Yes! I leave the camera sticking out now, and the annoying, useless message on power up is supressed.
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post #6392 of 12291 Old 05-18-2013, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Halimali View Post

Some calibrators claimed that F8500 is sharper due to its brightness other say it is because of its contrast
How come they are not saying this is because of Samsung's video processing? Why the conflicting reports?

Here is what HDTVtest website say in their review of F8500
We’ve heard some online discussion where it’s claimed that the PS64F8500 has a “sharper” image than other plasma televisions. Given that basically every recent 1080p plasma display panel has been able to resolve at least full static detail from a 1920×1080 source (let’s ignore plasma-centric issues like gradation and dithering for a second), we’re not sure what the basis of these is, but we’d imagine that it has a lot to do with the F8500′s superior contrast performance, which could be said to make images appear perceptibly sharper.

I think it comes down to the sub-pixel design. I played Darksiders 2 for a few minutes to see how it compared to the ST60, and the image was certainly a little clearer and you could see the edges a bit more than on the ST60. I'm using the TV in PC mode which has a different sharpness processing than TV mode, so I don't think there is any video sharpness processing going on that we don't know about and both modes will look similar with the right settings. I don't think it comes down to the extra contrast or the extra brightness, either. So that's why I think it's the sub-pixel design and just inherent to this panel. The image will appear denser, similar to how the Super Fine Pitch Sony CRT's did vs non-SFP tubes, and of course, back then everyone was talking about how the SFP gave a sharper and clearer picture, and is the main reason the XBR910/960 was sought out more than the XBR970. I think it's obvious what's going on.

BTW, another thing I notice. Text looks clearer. Everything does, but you can really notice it on text. Especially since each line of text isn't line bleeding the entire image, I think that also helps a lot with the clarity. Again, stuff the pros missed during the shoot out, or didn't care about because it wasn't film material.
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post #6393 of 12291 Old 05-18-2013, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

A quick question. Are you guys still getting the error message re the camera when the camera is tucked in and the TV is first turned on?

yes, but not an error message. it basically says "hey consumer how in the world are you going to wave your hands at me if I can't see you.(hand gestures) so since it's undefeatable at this time, I just leave it engaged.

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post #6394 of 12291 Old 05-18-2013, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by willieconway View Post

On movie review sites a poster like that would be recognized and called out as a (studio) plant pretty fast. Three very typical characteristics:

  1. Completely new member
  2. Very insistent that he's just a regular guy, not a "video nerd"
  3. Brings other people (girlfriend, delivery people) into the story to make it more relatable

Could he be real? Sure. But it's such a formulaic plant post that I seriously doubt it.

Geez, it never ends. You just can't post an enthusiastic review of this panel without getting shot down. Once again, for the 1,000th time, why do some guys insist on coming to this thread when they have no intention of buying the product but rather, apparently, to just throw cold water on the owner's party? Is there nothing better to do? I don't go over to the Panasonic VT60 thread and say "man, how do you guys deal with dim displays and overly aggressive ABLs. What purpose would that serve? rolleyes.gif

It just never ceases to amaze me how 'not nice' people can be. Not saying you Willie, just an observation from the 'usual suspects'. I'm sure it's just a coincidence that they either own Panasonics or have things like ZTs on order. wink.gif
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post #6395 of 12291 Old 05-18-2013, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Samsung hasn't promoted it recently but beginning in 2011 (D8000) they have been using a local contrast enhancement (LCE) algorithm in their top models. This is probably the source of the perceptual difference in sharpness compared to other 1080p panels. This algorithm works on local groups of pixels, ~100x100 for the D8000, and is most evident when there are brighter objects against more uniform contrast scenes. It can appear to "lift" the objects out of the background in a pseudo-3D effect. Anyone who has used a darblet knows what this looks like, and Samsung panels make use of the same principle although the darblet works on a pixel by pixel basis to adjust local luminance.

LCE in Samsung plasmas which employ it can only be disabled via special commands in the service menu which is unfortunate because then you could compare on/off images for various material and see the difference. I have been able to do this on my D8000 as well as turn the LCE gain up and down to find a nice operating point.

interesting...I remember hearing about LCE a few years back.

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post #6396 of 12291 Old 05-18-2013, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Trackman View Post

Ken,

It looks like we have some vindication regarding our observation that the Sammy is sharper than the Pannys - Tom Norton from HT Mag concurs.


http://www.hometheater.com/content/value-electronics-hdtv-shootout-and-then-there-were-three-page-2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Halimali View Post

Some calibrators claimed that F8500 is sharper due to its brightness other say it is because of its contrast
How come they are not saying this is because of Samsung's video processing? Why the conflicting reports?

Here is what HDTVtest website say in their review of F8500
We’ve heard some online discussion where it’s claimed that the PS64F8500 has a “sharper” image than other plasma televisions. Given that basically every recent 1080p plasma display panel has been able to resolve at least full static detail from a 1920×1080 source (let’s ignore plasma-centric issues like gradation and dithering for a second), we’re not sure what the basis of these is, but we’d imagine that it has a lot to do with the F8500′s superior contrast performance, which could be said to make images appear perceptibly sharper.

There's a difference between being sharper and being perceived as sharper. I have seen no reports of it being sharper. What's important to you is all that really matters. wink.gif

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post #6397 of 12291 Old 05-18-2013, 08:52 AM
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Here is a demonstration of the LCE working in my display, of course it's much easier to see in person. In the following sequence the in-focus foreground gets perceptually pushed toward the viewer. You can also see more detail in the ribs of the central leaf where the lighter green highlights are getting amplified.

LCE off
LCE at 39%
LCE at 78%


Here is close-up showing the luminance adjustments made in the area of the leaf ribs, off vs. 78% gain.

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post #6398 of 12291 Old 05-18-2013, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

I really don't understand why the calibrators chose the VT/ZT over the F8500. I wonder if they only cared about the lowest blacks and highest contrast.

Yup, that's why and they pretty much acknowledged that even though the differences in black levels are so small. Interestingly, I think that most people upon seeing the 8500, will feel IT has more contrast than the VT/ZT. I'm one of those, The top end disparity is much greater than the disparity on the low end. So for most material, when there is a difference, your eye will tend to see the greater dynamic range of the 8500. But hey, we 'got to go by them #s'...just disregard what your eyes see. wink.gif

Oh wait, I forgot, "IMO". biggrin.gif
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post #6399 of 12291 Old 05-18-2013, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Here is a demonstration of the LCE working in my display, of course it's much easier to see in person. In the following sequence the in-focus foreground gets perceptually pushed toward the viewer. You can also see more detail in the ribs of the central leaf where the lighter green highlights are getting amplified.

That's not the effect I'm seeing. This is what I've done to compare the "sharpness' of the set vs the ST60.

I played a lot of Darksiders 2 on my ST60. In the menu screen, you can see the main character, who is blue, on a light brown background. Where his shoulder meets the background, on the ST60 you couldn't see the edge of the shoulder as clear as you could on the F8500. On the F8500 you could make out the pixel structure more so than on the ST60. It's not really a highlights thing, it's just the image seems to be a bit more pure.

Other material I've looked at is screen text. The ST60 had more of a problem displaying text, it wasn't as clear and also suffered from chroma fringing and line bleed. If I turn off True Type (which I use to set sharpness so there is no fringing or edge haloing, it's a good way to get perfect pixel lines) you can see the pixel structure of the text perfectly. On the ST60, it wasn't like that. This is a good test because it's only black and white, there isn't a set of highlights to add to make the text sharper, it's simply a 0 pixel next to a 255 pixel. If I get closer to the TV, the "screen door" is a little less noticeable than on a ST60.

Just my observations.

I'd love to be able to test out LCE, but I can't get into the service menu at the moment until someone posts a code for the new remote (if there is one) or until I get a universal remote that works with the F8500. Unfortunately my Denon 1712 remote doesn't work 100%, the mute buttons and such don't do anything although the menu button, arrow keys and so on do.
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post #6400 of 12291 Old 05-18-2013, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

A quick question. Are you guys still getting the error message re the camera when the camera is tucked in and the TV is first turned on?
yes I get the message. Maybe you could have Robert report the issue to Samsung.
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post #6401 of 12291 Old 05-18-2013, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by endlessender View Post

3D popping is still there but I have information that Samsung is aware of the problem and actively working on it. I feel pretty confident we can all expect a fix that can/will be implemented via firmware. They seem serious about ironing out any problems and making this TV the one to beat.

Hell, I'm even starting to have a glimmer of hope they might look at improving input lag but I have no tangible reason ton this particular issue to believe they will...just hopeful based on their current and previous responsiveness to issues found thus far.

I wouldn't be the least surprised to see them take care of 3D pops given their proactive nature with this set, but input lag I'm not so sure about. I'm just wondering if that isn't inherent in the way the TV processes a signal.
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post #6402 of 12291 Old 05-18-2013, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Yup, that's why and they pretty much acknowledged that even though the differences in black levels are so small. Interestingly, I think that most people upon seeing the 8500, will feel IT has more contrast than the VT/ZT. I'm one of those, The top end disparity is much greater than the disparity on the low end. So for most material, when there is a difference, your eye will tend to see the greater dynamic range of the 8500. But hey, we 'got to go by them #s'...just disregard what your eyes see. wink.gif

Oh wait, I forgot, "IMO". biggrin.gif

The numbers are useful though. If you did a full field contrast ratio test, I'm sure the F8500 would easily win because the whites will be much higher, and the blacks are very close to the VT. Either way, measurements are good and all, and when all 3 are so close, what else is there to look at? How about the things the VT/ZT does that the F8500 doesn't, like line bleed? Oh wait, I guess the F8500 failed the line bleed test biggrin.gif

I imagine a little old lady in a TV store saying "Where's the line bleed?"
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post #6403 of 12291 Old 05-18-2013, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by polakis View Post

I see many new 64F8500 owners but nobody mentioned anything about the faint horizontal band in light backrounds. What happened? New improved batch? Does anyone have may 2013 build?

I had my F8500 running the slides last night for a while, including white and grey backgrounds. I didn't see any horizontal or vertical banding. Not sure of the manufacture date.
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post #6404 of 12291 Old 05-18-2013, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Geez, it never ends. You just can't post an enthusiastic review of this panel without getting shot down. Once again, for the 1,000th time, why do some guys insist on coming to this thread when they have no intention of buying the product but rather, apparently, to just throw cold water on the owner's party? Is there nothing better to do? I don't go over to the Panasonic VT60 thread and say "man, how do you guys deal with dim displays and overly aggressive ABLs. What purpose would that serve? rolleyes.gif

It just never ceases to amaze me how 'not nice' people can be. Not saying you Willie, just an observation from the 'usual suspects'. I'm sure it's just a coincidence that they either own Panasonics or have things like ZTs on order. wink.gif
You act like this is your first thread Ken. Youre obviously a big Samsung fan but you should try to relax instead of arguing with everyone who doesnt see things your way.
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post #6405 of 12291 Old 05-18-2013, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Trackman View Post

Ken,

It looks like we have some vindication regarding our observation that the Sammy is sharper than the Pannys - Tom Norton from HT Mag concurs.


http://www.hometheater.com/content/value-electronics-hdtv-shootout-and-then-there-were-three-page-2

Hey Trackman, thanks. I've said it before, Tom Norton is my favorite reviewer. What I see with my own eyes, generally follows more closely to what Tom writes than other reviewers I've read. I'm looking forward to his review on the 8500.
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post #6406 of 12291 Old 05-18-2013, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by airgas1998 View Post

yes, but not an error message. it basically says "hey consumer how in the world are you going to wave your hands at me if I can't see you.(hand gestures) so since it's undefeatable at this time, I just leave it engaged.

Thanks Air & Dan. So now the question is with the camera out, does it at times pick up normal room movement as an attempt to do a 'gesture'? I would think that might be even more annoying if true. At least with the message you get with the camera tucked in, you hit "OK" and you're done. If movement is misinterpreted with the camera out, that could provide multiple errors.
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post #6407 of 12291 Old 05-18-2013, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by floridaman View Post

yes I get the message. Maybe you could have Robert report the issue to Samsung.

I will floridaman.
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post #6408 of 12291 Old 05-18-2013, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post


I imagine a little old lady in a TV store saying "Where's the line bleed?"

Nothing that a few band-aids can't fix up. biggrin.gif
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post #6409 of 12291 Old 05-18-2013, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

You act like this is your first thread Ken. Youre obviously a big Samsung fan but you should try to relax instead of arguing with everyone who doesnt see things your way.

I have absolutely no problem with people posting opposing viewpoints. My argument is with guys who obviously have no other motivation than to throw dispersions at the panel they have no interest in. To me this is simply an attempt to validate their choice. I don't see Samsung owners going to Panasonic threads to do that there.

We saw that all the time in the Sharp Elite threads. If these guys truly don't like the display, than why the heck do they spend so much time in these threads. Sorry, I think this is simply 'not nice'....and I'm being kind.
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Originally Posted by geezuz747 View Post

I had my F8500 running the slides last night for a while, including white and grey backgrounds. I didn't see any horizontal or vertical banding. Not sure of the manufacture date.

build date is on the serial numbr sticker back of tv... smile.gif

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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post


Oh wait, I forgot, "IMO". biggrin.gif

biggrin.gifsmile.gif

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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Samsung hasn't promoted it recently but beginning in 2011 (D8000) they have been using a local contrast enhancement (LCE) algorithm in their top models. This is probably the source of the perceptual difference in sharpness compared to other 1080p panels. This algorithm works on local groups of pixels, ~100x100 for the D8000, and is most evident when there are brighter objects against more uniform contrast scenes. It can appear to "lift" the objects out of the background in a pseudo-3D effect. Anyone who has used a darblet knows what this looks like, and Samsung panels make use of the same principle although the darblet works on a pixel by pixel basis to adjust local luminance.

LCE in Samsung plasmas which employ it can only be disabled via special commands in the service menu which is unfortunate because then you could compare on/off images for various material and see the difference. I have been able to do this on my D8000 as well as turn the LCE gain up and down to find a nice operating point.

very interesting! thanks...

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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

You act like this is your first thread Ken. Youre obviously a big Samsung fan but you should try to relax instead of arguing with everyone who doesnt see things your way.
Exactly, I simply raised questions as to why the new owner was lumping the ST and VT together when running through all these comparisons (and called into question the claims of pro calibration for a brand new panel), and this is all it takes to be on the receiving end of you-know-who's witch hunt again (and get labeled as an ignorant by his sidekick). Nowhere did I berate their precious.

The thread subject is titled, and I quote, "Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Series Discussion Thread." Nowhere is it stated this thread is relegated to only owners or those intending to purchase.
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post #6414 of 12291 Old 05-18-2013, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post


I'd love to be able to test out LCE, but I can't get into the service menu at the moment until someone posts a code for the new remote (if there is one) or until I get a universal remote that works with the F8500. Unfortunately my Denon 1712 remote doesn't work 100%, the mute buttons and such don't do anything although the menu button, arrow keys and so on do.

do you have an ipad? smartview remote app works

Samsung PN51F8500. Marantz SR5008. Oppo BDP 103D. Sony BDP S5100. Emp Tek E55TIB LR, E5CIB, E55WIB. Sennheiser Momentum. Sennheiser 598.
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

A quick question. Are you guys still getting the error message re the camera when the camera is tucked in and the TV is first turned on?

biggrin.gif



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Originally Posted by willieconway View Post

On movie review sites a poster like that would be recognized and called out as a (studio) plant pretty fast. Three very typical characteristics:

  1. Completely new member
  2. Very insistent that he's just a regular guy, not a "video nerd"
  3. Brings other people (girlfriend, delivery people) into the story to make it more relatable

Could he be real? Sure. But it's such a formulaic plant post that I seriously doubt it.

Could I be a studio plant? Sure. But it's much more likely that I actually work for the CIA.

Think about it. If we (the "Agency") can get everyone in America to purchase an F8500, it will greatly boost the economy of South Korea. Then, South Korea can afford to buy more war planes and tanks from our weapons dealers, making everyone rich. Samsung has even agreed to reserve one panel out of every ten so that we can build a huge wall of plasmas along the North Korean border, on which we can project lifelike images of nuclear weapons and scare the living bejeezuz out of that fat smarmy little Kim Jong Un fella. Well, you say that could start a full-blown war with North Korea, and why would anyone want that? War profits, my friend. War profits.

While you suspect me of being a studio plant, just think of the difference in money here. How much would "the studios" actually profit from planting someone to produce fake reviews of plasmas? A few thousand bucks, maybe? Which, let's be honest, that's not even enough to pay someone to plant reviews.

But what if a "plant" convinced enough people to buy plasmas from South Korea that it started a full-blown war with North Korea, leading South Korea to buy thousands of planes, tanks and missiles? You'd be talking BILLIONS. So, obviously, I'm actually a CIA plant whose goal is to start a Korean War so that Boeing can profit from all those planes and missiles. It's all so obvious now, huh?
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post #6417 of 12291 Old 05-18-2013, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by ljmart View Post

do you have an ipad? smartview remote app works

No, in general I hate "smart" tech so my cell is just a flip phone.
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post #6418 of 12291 Old 05-18-2013, 10:42 AM
 
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No, in general I hate "smart" tech so my cell is just a flip phone.

Ahh to make and receive telephone calls on. Interesting concept, hmm.... wink.gif
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post #6419 of 12291 Old 05-18-2013, 10:47 AM
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Maybe I'm a Samsung plant too but shame on Samsung for not delivering their TV to their plant in time biggrin.gif

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post #6420 of 12291 Old 05-18-2013, 10:50 AM
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biggrin.gif



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V

Thank you pie for your hard work on the calibration.
One question though: do you recommend the TV to be first broken in for at least 100 hours before trying your settings?
Would you recommend that?

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