Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 319 - AVS Forum
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post #9541 of 12521 Old 12-02-2013, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

f8500 vs st50
no contest the f8500 wins. it's brighter, blacker, and has more steps inbetween. so it's better in a dark room, and much better in a bright room.

f8500 vs st60
I spent a LOT of time comparing the two in april when I was shopping. imo, it's not a 'clear' winner anymore. I preferred the f8500 because it seemed like it was as good in a dark environment, but better in a bright room. I wouldn't say the f8500 is the better display for everybody though. for instance, I have my backlight set to 12 out of 20 on the f8500, basically bringing the brightness below what the st60 is capable of anyway. I did however feel that the f8500 appeared clearer/cleaner when I compared them directly. it has less space between pixels, which does seem to give it a bit of an lcd look, but in a good way. digital content looks crisp and precise, and film still looks as good as it always has on plasmas.

most ppl however feel the f8500 compares closest to the vt60 or zt60.

F8500 is probably a little bit brighter but ive read that the ST50 can reach pretty high levels. The ST50 reaches 0.002 ftl after 250 hours. They seem comparable to me. But the f8500 has a better light filter.
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post #9542 of 12521 Old 12-02-2013, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by AVKIK View Post

Thanks much. Do I hold mute down or just pressing one button at a time? Also, where do I find the manufactured date? Thanks.

MUTE 7 3 7 ENTER

Enter them sequentially, don't hold.

The MFG date is on the sticker on the back of the TV and is not easy to find amongst all that tiny text. Mine is immediately above the bar code.

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post #9543 of 12521 Old 12-02-2013, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by music_to_my_ear View Post

F8500 is probably a little bit brighter but ive read that the ST50 can reach pretty high levels. The ST50 reaches 0.002 ftl after 250 hours. They seem comparable to me. But the f8500 has a better light filter.

not sure where you're getting that info, or if those are with 'tweaks'(I know d-nice can do a lot with panny's), but it's been my research that the st60 is a HUGE improvement over the st50, in fact the st60 is far more comparable to the vt50, and having viewed the st60 next to the f8500, the f8500 is worlds brighter. I found similar black levels between the two, but most reviewers have measured slightly lower mll's on the st60.

anyway, I think comparing the f8500 to the st50 is really selling the f8500 short. the research I did when shopping in april all pointed to the 2013 models being a significant leap over last years. I was going to buy a vt50 on clearance, but found out the st60 was basically just as good(and better in some ways) so I stopped rushing to find a vt50, and spent weeks reading and reviewing the TV's in person.

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
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Sources: HTPC(Mediabrowser), PS3, XBOX360, Wii, Sony DVP-CX995V
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post #9544 of 12521 Old 12-02-2013, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

not sure where you're getting that info, or if those are with 'tweaks'(I know d-nice can do a lot with panny's), but it's been my research that the st60 is a HUGE improvement over the st50, in fact the st60 is far more comparable to the vt50, and having viewed the st60 next to the f8500, the f8500 is worlds brighter. I found similar black levels between the two, but most reviewers have measured slightly lower mll's on the st60.

anyway, I think comparing the f8500 to the st50 is really selling the f8500 short. the research I did when shopping in april all pointed to the 2013 models being a significant leap over last years. I was going to buy a vt50 on clearance, but found out the st60 was basically just as good(and better in some ways) so I stopped rushing to find a vt50, and spent weeks reading and reviewing the TV's in person.

I thought it was well known that the ST50 got darker after 250 hours and the larger sizes were darker out of the box. I think the member rahzel on this site confirmed this a few times in the ST50 thread. Im looking at the spectralcal reports of the ST50 on cnet right now and the measurements after calibration seem near perfect with a slight spike in blue around the 50 mark.

The st60 is slightly more accurate in color than the st50 according to cnet but the st50 used in the review didnt experience the mll drop that rahzel talks about.

And by comparison, the ST60 equalled the VT50 in black levels by eye and measurement according to David in his cnet review so I dont know about it being similar to the vt60. Im still on the fence between the vt60 f8500 f800 and the st60 though...but i have a good chance to buy the st50 brand new so i thought id look into the reviews again

Im looking for the posts by rahzel about the st50 black level drops....

got a pm from him. this is what he said

"With that said, after the initial aging period, the ST50 will settle in around ~0.0024fL and the ST60 will settle in around ~0.0016fL (+/- 0.0004). The VT60 is ~0.0013fL and the F8500 is ~0.0018fL."

So the st60 is lower and the st50 isnt soo bad but now as low. But damn that ST60 gets low...holy sh!t....unfortunately he did mention that the f8500 suffers from floating blacks

Hey so could you comment on the F8500 with dark material? When you watched it in person did you see the blacks float?
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post #9545 of 12521 Old 12-02-2013, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by music_to_my_ear View Post

I thought it was well known that the ST50 got darker after 250 hours and the larger sizes were darker out of the box. I think the member rahzel on this site confirmed this a few times in the ST50 thread. Im looking at the spectralcal reports of the ST50 on cnet right now and the measurements after calibration seem near perfect with a slight spike in blue around the 50 mark.

The st60 is slightly more accurate in color than the st50 according to cnet but the st50 used in the review didnt experience the mll drop that rahzel talks about.

And by comparison, the ST60 equalled the VT50 in black levels by eye and measurement according to David in his cnet review so I dont know about it being similar to the vt60. Im still on the fence between the vt60 f8500 f800 and the st60 though...but i have a good chance to buy the st50 brand new so i thought id look into the reviews again

Im looking for the posts by rahzel about the st50 black level drops....

got a pm from him. this is what he said

"With that said, after the initial aging period, the ST50 will settle in around ~0.0024fL and the ST60 will settle in around ~0.0016fL (+/- 0.0004). The VT60 is ~0.0013fL and the F8500 is ~0.0018fL."

So the st60 is lower and the st50 isnt soo bad but now as low. But damn that ST60 gets low...holy sh!t....unfortunately he did mention that the f8500 suffers from floating blacks

Hey so could you comment on the F8500 with dark material? When you watched it in person did you see the blacks float?

haha, wow... smile.gif
i'll see what I can comment on here.
I didn't spend much time researching the st50 specifically, since I started my search at the end of model year, and figured 'go with the best, get a vt50'. so if I missed something on the st50, which is totally possible, that's why.

everything I have read, when summed up(because some reviews do contradict others) suggests that in order of best to worst MLL's: vt60, st60, f8500, st50. I THINK the vt50 is just barely ahead of the st60. however, when talking about peak brightness, the f8500 is nearly double the vt60, and st60. I didn't get any data on the st50, so I assumed it wasn't twice as bright as the TV's that replaced it. as far as contrast goes, I've seen sites that claimed both the f8500 and vt60 were better, but they were always pretty close, and a noticeable step up from the st60. from the comments and reviews I've seen on here, i'd say vt60, f8500, st60 is the correct order.

now for personal, real world experience.
none of them are black, they all 'suck' compared to my old crt... but at least they are close enough, I don't really care anymore smile.gif
the st60 and vt60, and zt60 do get a touch darker than the f8500. if you can control light, you will likely be able to appreciate this at home. I don't think you'll ever be able to see this in stores. my friend works at a local a/v shop and I convinced her to turn all the lights off in the half of the store where the TV's were, the light leaking in from the other side was still enough to make it a very tough to see difference.
the only time I ever saw floating blacks on the f8500 was watching a 4:3 star trek movie early on with an older FW. when the scene went from dark to light, I noticed a change in the black bars on the sides. with new fw(and this was like 3 or 4 updates ago) this changed, and I no longer see floating blacks on that movie during those scenes. I have never seen/noticed floating blacks at any other point. if they are changing, they must be getting darker when the scene gets dark, and brighter when the scene gets bright(like crts did) and that's why I can't see it

if you have ANY ambient light in the room, and I mean ANY, then all three(four if we count the zt) effectively produce black, and there is no longer a winner in terms of MLL. with my lights dimmed to about 10%, I can't tell the difference between on and off with the f8500. I can CLEARLY tell the difference when my lights are off though. I've heard the vt60 still displays more shadow details and has better gradation under these conditions, but I was unable to pick up on anything with my test material in the store. in terms of shadow detail and gradation, it may as well have been a tie, but if forced i'd say the f8500 and vt60 had an edge on the st60.

after my hours of viewing, I came to the conclusion that the st60 was phenomenal, the vt60 didn't seem like enough of an upgrade to justify the added cost, and the f8500 provided an overall image that was very unique. it would either appeal to you, and be the clear choice, or it wouldn't. for me, I liked it. I found it had a quality to it that couldn't really be described by any rating or standard measure that made it appealing to me. after more research, I came to the conclusion it was due to the smaller gap between pixels. still, it was subtle, and looking at a st60 or vt60 on it's own was stunning everytime. it was only when the f8500 was placed beside them that I favoured the f8500.

at any rate, we are talking about some fantastic displays that have one or two MINOR problems. I say minor, in that if you say the f8500 has the worst blacks of the bunch, it's still better than 95% of the TV's on the market today, if you say the st60 has bad input lag, it's still very reasonable, etc. but perhaps looking at what these displays don't do phenomenally is the only way to decide.
F8500: struggles with motion handling, slightly higher MLL than st60, vt60, and really high input lag if not using pc or game input labels. aggressive screen filter makes vertical viewing angle very narrow
ST60: less gradation than f8500, vt60. high input lag, least affective anti-glare filter(I've heard reports of 3d issues, but can't confirm?)
VT60: dimmer than st60 and f8500(was by far the most expensive for me, but that seems to depend on your market I guess)

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post #9546 of 12521 Old 12-03-2013, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by WantsNWarrants View Post

MUTE 7 3 7 ENTER

Enter them sequentially, don't hold.

The MFG date is on the sticker on the back of the TV and is not easy to find amongst all that tiny text. Mine is immediately above the bar code.

Have you tried to get that MUTE 7 3 7 to work - all I get is either it mutes the internal speakers or complains that the internal speakers are turned off and can't be muted?
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post #9547 of 12521 Old 12-03-2013, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

Have you tried to get that MUTE 7 3 7 to work - all I get is either it mutes the internal speakers or complains that the internal speakers are turned off and can't be muted?

Because I have the sound running to headphones via the optical cable and sound set to EXTERNAL, the first thing I see is the message that the TV can't mute.

I just ignore that and keep hitting keys.

MUTE 7 3 7 ENTER was suggested a long time ago, probably in the Recommended Settings thread. IIRC, the poster was in Europe, which means that this code works on all Samsung F8500s, not just those intended for North America. I bet it works on several other models as well.

Regardless, although I often have to keep trying, YES, the code does work. In my experince, a relatively slow sequential set of keystrokes is required. Frankly, I'm not positive what exactly I do different between when it works and when nothing happens, but I do know that if I rush it always fails, and if I bobble (hunting for ENTER, for example), it always fails.

Many here are aware of my obsession with the panel temperature, and MUTE 7 3 7 ENTER is the only way I know to see it, so I run this almost every time I power down - just before, of course - so I know if my fans and air filters are doing the job. FWIW, I normally see 29 to 33 degrees...

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post #9548 of 12521 Old 12-03-2013, 02:18 PM
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Hi dear fellow members,


I have one issue which might be applicable to you as well (and I already have read about it here).

I have the PS51F8500 and it's picture quality etc is actually amazing. Now I recently bought the PS4 (on launch in Europe) and I couldn't wait to play. So far I have been quite impressed by its capabilities, however, as you might expect I am facing horrible input lag. Especially when playing action packed games as NFS and BF4.


As discussed earlier by you guys on page 50 it is screen tear because of the input lag. Now I thought this Sammy had low input lag and was perfectly suited for gaming. I know, as I read earlier you can rename the HDMI2 port to PC via the remote by pressing input and move the cursor up.

However, I have one big problem and I assume more of you this:rolleyes:: I connected my PS4 to my Onkyo tx nr818, since this machine is connected to my precious Teufel speakers for which I paid a fortune (IMHO). Sound quality is blasting of course (especially BF4 and NFS).

But the PS51F8500 is connected via ONE SINGLE HDMI and if I whatch e.g. via my mediaplayer a movie it is also connected to the same HDMI2 port in PC gaming. This means picture quality drastically decreases when watching a movie as well and some options (as warm2, etc are not available anymore). It is far from efficient when I need to switch all the time from name and Game mode on/off etc because the TV only recognises the HDMI2 port, as all the other HDMI cables are connected to the Onkyo.

1. Is there a way to surpass/ overcome this by keeping it connected to your home cinema system? How do you guys do this when it is connected via e.g. your Onkyo/ Yamaha system with all HDMI connections?

2. I was thinking of connecting the PS4 direct to the HDMI2 port and rename it to PC (without connecting it to the Onkyo), but I do not know how I might get the sound from my Onkyo receiver and Teufel speakers?? Does any of you guys know a way to work around this? So then I would need to get the sound from my TV to the Onkyo, not from the Samsung TV speaker, because when you play a game like BF4 online, you would love to have the awesome sound of course:D:D:D


Your input would currently mean the world to me, as I am now quite frustrated and couldn't find another solution. I am as well very interested how you guys work your way around this?


All the best,


Jan
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post #9549 of 12521 Old 12-03-2013, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by jdl15 View Post

Hi dear fellow members,


I have one issue which might be applicable to you as well (and I already have read about it here).

I have the PS51F8500 and it's picture quality etc is actually amazing. Now I recently bought the PS4 (on launch in Europe) and I couldn't wait to play. So far I have been quite impressed by its capabilities, however, as you might expect I am facing horrible input lag. Especially when playing action packed games as NFS and BF4.


As discussed earlier by you guys on page 50 it is screen tear because of the input lag. Now I thought this Sammy had low input lag and was perfectly suited for gaming. I know, as I read earlier you can rename the HDMI2 port to PC via the remote by pressing input and move the cursor up.

However, I have one big problem and I assume more of you this:rolleyes:: I connected my PS4 to my Onkyo tx nr818, since this machine is connected to my precious Teufel speakers for which I paid a fortune (IMHO). Sound quality is blasting of course (especially BF4 and NFS).

But the PS51F8500 is connected via ONE SINGLE HDMI and if I whatch e.g. via my mediaplayer a movie it is also connected to the same HDMI2 port in PC gaming. This means picture quality drastically decreases when watching a movie as well and some options (as warm2, etc are not available anymore). It is far from efficient when I need to switch all the time from name and Game mode on/off etc because the TV only recognises the HDMI2 port, as all the other HDMI cables are connected to the Onkyo.

1. Is there a way to surpass/ overcome this by keeping it connected to your home cinema system? How do you guys do this when it is connected via e.g. your Onkyo/ Yamaha system with all HDMI connections?

2. I was thinking of connecting the PS4 direct to the HDMI2 port and rename it to PC (without connecting it to the Onkyo), but I do not know how I might get the sound from my Onkyo receiver and Teufel speakers?? Does any of you guys know a way to work around this? So then I would need to get the sound from my TV to the Onkyo, not from the Samsung TV speaker, because when you play a game like BF4 online, you would love to have the awesome sound of course:D:D:D


Your input would currently mean the world to me, as I am now quite frustrated and couldn't find another solution. I am as well very interested how you guys work your way around this?


All the best,


Jan

nothing easy.

first, somebody recently discovered a more effective way to reduce input lag, and seems to retain more picture quality. rename the input game, and then also enable game mode. after doing both, the lag appears to be just slightly better, and most users so far have commented that the image quality is better as well. I know all color modes are available so if you've set up everything in warm1 or warm2(which looks like piss yellow on my set...?) you can maintain those settings. I'm using warm1 for both, but I haven't adjust color on the game mode yet, and it's still yellowish.

ok, options. you can run hdmi to the tv into it's own input, then run a digital audio out from the tv to the receiver. this way you'd only have to switch inputs on the tv, not rename them all the time

another option, and what I'm currently doing, is use a power hdmi splitter. split the hdmi out from your receiver to the tv. hook one into hdmi1 and set it up for movies, and the other into hdmi2 and set it up for games. again, like above, you just have to switch inputs then, no renaming. this works for me because I already had a 4way splitter being used(signal is split to tv, projector, bathroom) with an extra output, and the harmony remote handles switching inputs automagically so it's no extra work for me at all.

for what it's worth, I would not call the difference in pq between the movie and 'pc/game' options drastic. the image on pc mode still kicks butt compared to almost all the competition.
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post #9550 of 12521 Old 12-03-2013, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by p5browne View Post


I think HDMI 3 is the only connection to use to get Audio back to your AVR using HDMI from the TV. From the intermittent issues from members postings, I went with the Optical Connection.


I'm going with optical -- tomorrow, when the cable arrives -- because HDMI CEC control signals conflict with my Harmony remote. The Harmony docs say that HDMI CED control must be turned off. But if that's turned off so is ARC (Audio Return Channel), as the two features are a package deal. So I'm going optical in order to have both TV-sourced audio and the Harmony.

 

Meanwhile, my HDMI input is still HDMI3 because I was originally using ARC; I don't know of any reason to either move it or not to.

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post #9551 of 12521 Old 12-03-2013, 07:35 PM
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I just purchased a PS4 and an Xbox One and am looking for some settings to use while the console has game mode enabled for the best picture quality. I have looked through most of this thread but I can't seem to find calibration settings while the tv is in game mode.

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post #9552 of 12521 Old 12-03-2013, 08:39 PM
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I just purchased a PS4 and an Xbox One and am looking for some settings to use while the console has game mode enabled for the best picture quality. I have looked through most of this thread but I can't seem to find calibration settings while the tv is in game mode.

Picture  Calibration

Source Name: GAME

Go to System Settings/General/Game Mode = ON

 

Cell Light  15

Contrast  90

Brightness 49

Sharpness   5

Color 50 

Tint 50

Picture Size Screen Fit

White Balance 

RO 22

GO 26

BO 25

RG 30

GG 26

BG 27

Gamma 0

Picture options

Color tone warm 2

HDMI BLK LVL  NORMAL

10 Point

1= 0 0 0

2= 0 0 -2

3= 0 0 0

4= 0 0 -2

5= 0 0 0

6= 0 0 0 

7= 0 0 -4

8= 0 0 -1

9= 0 0 0

10= -2 0 -5

Color Space

RED= R50 G5 B4

Green= R30 G56 B5

Blue= R0 G0 B53

Yellow R53 G55 B6

Cyan R32 G54 B52

Mag R49 G3 B53

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post #9553 of 12521 Old 12-03-2013, 08:41 PM
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THere is some INput lag in this tv on game mode. the PC Source name trick eliminates most of it but you lose a little bit of quality. Look at my post with Proper PS4/Xbox settings on page 319.

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post #9554 of 12521 Old 12-03-2013, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by pcmon View Post
 

Hi,

 

I accidentally posted this in the LCD section.

 

I've been a long time reader but finally after much debate I have just purchased a 60inch Samsung F8500 but was worried about the input lag for gaming can anyone advise me on their gaming experience?

 

I can still change it for a Sony W900A if I want but I think the 8500 has a better picture. I am no pro gamer but would hate really noticeable input lag.

 

My main question is, with the Evolution kits upgrading the electronics and inputs of the unit, would that mean a potential input lag reduction in future?

 

Thanks

Bump on this... Anyone know if the Evolution Kit will/could reduce the input lag in the future?? 

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post #9555 of 12521 Old 12-03-2013, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by titancrusher1 View Post
 

THere is some INput lag in this tv on game mode. the PC Source name trick eliminates most of it but you lose a little bit of quality. Look at my post with Proper PS4/Xbox settings on page 319.

Thank you so much, I was reading that some recent firmware update fixed the input lag. The post claims instead of naming the input PC you should name the input Game, while also enabling Game Mode. I have done this and it seems like it has worked great because I have no noticeable input lag but the picture quality is just horrible because it forces you into using Standard Mode and I do not have that mode calibrated at all.

 

Two questions, what about all those random options in picture mode and advance mode, like motion judder or black optimizer? How do I configure those? Second if I put the picture size to screen fit, doesn't that disable pixel shift? I don't want to have and Image Retention while gaming.

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post #9556 of 12521 Old 12-03-2013, 08:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post


anyway, I think comparing the f8500 to the st50 is really selling the f8500 short.
I agree, the F8500, VT60 and ZT60 are "close" enough to call a tie. You can not go wrong with any of the above.........

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post #9557 of 12521 Old 12-03-2013, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Inseconds99 View Post
 

Thank you so much, I was reading that some recent firmware update fixed the input lag. The post claims instead of naming the input PC you should name the input Game, while also enabling Game Mode. I have done this and it seems like it has worked great because I have no noticeable input lag but the picture quality is just horrible because it forces you into using Standard Mode and I do not have that mode calibrated at all.

 

Two questions, what about all those random options in picture mode and advance mode, like motion judder or black optimizer? How do I configure those? Second if I put the picture size to screen fit, doesn't that disable pixel shift? I don't want to have and Image Retention while gaming.

Look at my post with the calibration settings. Fix the input by putting it into game then game mode on and calibrate from there. You shouldn't put motion judder on while gaming as it increases input lag dramatically since the tv has to double the cpu power to bring the image to the screen.  I haven't touches the picture size i left it as it was out of hte box so i can't answer that one. Image retention has not been a problem for me at all, and if it is...take 5 seconds to put your tv source into antenna mode to bring up white static for a few seconds. Image Retention fixed :)

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post #9558 of 12521 Old 12-03-2013, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Inseconds99 View Post
 

Thank you so much, I was reading that some recent firmware update fixed the input lag. The post claims instead of naming the input PC you should name the input Game, while also enabling Game Mode. I have done this and it seems like it has worked great because I have no noticeable input lag but the picture quality is just horrible because it forces you into using Standard Mode and I do not have that mode calibrated at all.

 

Two questions, what about all those random options in picture mode and advance mode, like motion judder or black optimizer? How do I configure those? Second if I put the picture size to screen fit, doesn't that disable pixel shift? I don't want to have and Image Retention while gaming.

although, i JUST downloaded the new firmware update...it looks like they fixed the input lag issue..... try it out and im curious what your opinion is...

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post #9559 of 12521 Old 12-03-2013, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by titancrusher1 View Post

although, i JUST downloaded the new firmware update...it looks like they fixed the input lag issue..... try it out and im curious what your opinion is...

Def seems fixed I had NO noticeable lag playing kill zone or battlefield!!
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post #9560 of 12521 Old 12-04-2013, 01:55 AM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

nothing easy.

first, somebody recently discovered a more effective way to reduce input lag, and seems to retain more picture quality. rename the input game, and then also enable game mode. after doing both, the lag appears to be just slightly better, and most users so far have commented that the image quality is better as well. I know all color modes are available so if you've set up everything in warm1 or warm2(which looks like piss yellow on my set...?) you can maintain those settings. I'm using warm1 for both, but I haven't adjust color on the game mode yet, and it's still yellowish.

ok, options. you can run hdmi to the tv into it's own input, then run a digital audio out from the tv to the receiver. this way you'd only have to switch inputs on the tv, not rename them all the time

another option, and what I'm currently doing, is use a power hdmi splitter. split the hdmi out from your receiver to the tv. hook one into hdmi1 and set it up for movies, and the other into hdmi2 and set it up for games. again, like above, you just have to switch inputs then, no renaming. this works for me because I already had a 4way splitter being used(signal is split to tv, projector, bathroom) with an extra output, and the harmony remote handles switching inputs automagically so it's no extra work for me at all.

for what it's worth, I would not call the difference in pq between the movie and 'pc/game' options drastic. the image on pc mode still kicks butt compared to almost all the competition.

Hi fierce_gt and fellow owners,


First of all: thanks for this great input.

I immediately tried bying myself the HDMI splitter in order to enable this, but is there any difference in picture quality? What I read on the site where I tried ordering it, was that it does not amplify the signal. Do you know if this simple splitter works? Or do you buy a more expensive one (is it therefore your's is called power splitter)? The one I tried buying costs around 20$ in Holland and it is a HDMI cable with a small "box" attached to it which has two HDMI connections:http://www.allekabels.nl/hdmi-splitter/1781/1049115/hdmi-naar-hdmi-hdmi-splitter.html


Moreover, I still do not get good results when I changed the name of the HDMI2 port to gaming. I simply press up on the remote and click on name change and then I select the name "spelcomputer"biggrin.gif which means game console in Dutch. Next to that, the TV is set to gaming mode (in the settings>general>game mode). I have the exact horizontal stripes as earlier discussed, looking like this (just an example):



This occurs randomly on my PS4. But as well my BF4 soldier keeps on stepping multiple times over the same area, really annoying! It makes online multiplayer unbearable.

Now from what I've read from others is that the latest firmware should improve input lag, but in which stand:

- HDMI2, GAME MODE on and rename the input to GAME?
- HDMI2, GAME MODE on and rename the input to PC?


Of course, I would like to use the setting which does influence the graphics the least, as my eyes want to be pleased too. How do you experience this with next-gen online gaming?

When I played Xbox 360 in single player, I noticed nothing at all actually.


Well, again many thanks for your great help and I hope many others can use this useful discussion board as well.


Cheers,

Jan
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post #9561 of 12521 Old 12-04-2013, 02:26 AM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

nothing easy.

first, somebody recently discovered a more effective way to reduce input lag, and seems to retain more picture quality. rename the input game, and then also enable game mode. after doing both, the lag appears to be just slightly better, and most users so far have commented that the image quality is better as well. I know all color modes are available so if you've set up everything in warm1 or warm2(which looks like piss yellow on my set...?) you can maintain those settings. I'm using warm1 for both, but I haven't adjust color on the game mode yet, and it's still yellowish.

ok, options. you can run hdmi to the tv into it's own input, then run a digital audio out from the tv to the receiver. this way you'd only have to switch inputs on the tv, not rename them all the time

another option, and what I'm currently doing, is use a power hdmi splitter. split the hdmi out from your receiver to the tv. hook one into hdmi1 and set it up for movies, and the other into hdmi2 and set it up for games. again, like above, you just have to switch inputs then, no renaming. this works for me because I already had a 4way splitter being used(signal is split to tv, projector, bathroom) with an extra output, and the harmony remote handles switching inputs automagically so it's no extra work for me at all.

for what it's worth, I would not call the difference in pq between the movie and 'pc/game' options drastic. the image on pc mode still kicks butt compared to almost all the competition.



Arrrggggg just posted a really long reply regarding your answer and did not copy the text and now the moderators need to approve (because of external link).... eek.gifeek.gifeek.gif


Any way, let's hope it get's approved and I would thank you very much for all of your input (especially fierce_gt).

And thanks moderator for approving wink.gif
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post #9562 of 12521 Old 12-04-2013, 06:47 AM
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I was under the impression that screen tearing in games was due to the console, not the tv.
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post #9563 of 12521 Old 12-04-2013, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by jdl15 View Post


I still do not get good results when I changed the name of the HDMI2 port to gaming. I simply press up on the remote and click on name change and then I select the name "spelcomputer"biggrin.gif which means game console in Dutch. Next to that, the TV is set to gaming mode (in the settings>general>game mode). I have the exact horizontal stripes as earlier discussed, looking like this (just an example):



This occurs randomly on my PS4. But as well my BF4 soldier keeps on stepping multiple times over the same area, really annoying! It makes online multiplayer unbearable.

Based on the picture you posted, this looks like a console issue. Especially when you say that you see nothing similar when using the Xbox 360. I have played 3 or 4 PS3 games, and never seen anything like it on my TV. Sounds like you may have one of those faulty PS4 HDMI ports. Might want to consider exchanging your console, or at least try and see what the game looks like on another screen (assuming you have one)?
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post #9564 of 12521 Old 12-04-2013, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Phanes View Post

Based on the picture you posted, this looks like a console issue. Especially when you say that you see nothing similar when using the Xbox 360. I have played 3 or 4 PS3 games, and never seen anything like it on my TV. Sounds like you may have one of those faulty PS4 HDMI ports. Might want to consider exchanging your console, or at least try and see what the game looks like on another screen (assuming you have one)?


To be honest I don't think so, because it only occurs during online, fast-paced gameplay. When I play Resogun or am scrolling the playstation home screen, nothing occurs.

I connected it to another screen down stairs (old Philips ambilight) and the problem persists online and when I e.g. look around quickly. But this Philips TV is a nasty piece of crap!


I only played a few offline games with my Xbox 360 (non FPS) and in general this tends to be present less with non FPS's. Let's see what the update brings tonight!
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post #9565 of 12521 Old 12-04-2013, 09:23 AM
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haha, wow... smile.gif
i'll see what I can comment on here.
I didn't spend much time researching the st50 specifically, since I started my search at the end of model year, and figured 'go with the best, get a vt50'. so if I missed something on the st50, which is totally possible, that's why.

everything I have read, when summed up(because some reviews do contradict others) suggests that in order of best to worst MLL's: vt60, st60, f8500, st50. I THINK the vt50 is just barely ahead of the st60. however, when talking about peak brightness, the f8500 is nearly double the vt60, and st60. I didn't get any data on the st50, so I assumed it wasn't twice as bright as the TV's that replaced it. as far as contrast goes, I've seen sites that claimed both the f8500 and vt60 were better, but they were always pretty close, and a noticeable step up from the st60. from the comments and reviews I've seen on here, i'd say vt60, f8500, st60 is the correct order.

now for personal, real world experience.
none of them are black, they all 'suck' compared to my old crt... but at least they are close enough, I don't really care anymore smile.gif
the st60 and vt60, and zt60 do get a touch darker than the f8500. if you can control light, you will likely be able to appreciate this at home. I don't think you'll ever be able to see this in stores. my friend works at a local a/v shop and I convinced her to turn all the lights off in the half of the store where the TV's were, the light leaking in from the other side was still enough to make it a very tough to see difference.
the only time I ever saw floating blacks on the f8500 was watching a 4:3 star trek movie early on with an older FW. when the scene went from dark to light, I noticed a change in the black bars on the sides. with new fw(and this was like 3 or 4 updates ago) this changed, and I no longer see floating blacks on that movie during those scenes. I have never seen/noticed floating blacks at any other point. if they are changing, they must be getting darker when the scene gets dark, and brighter when the scene gets bright(like crts did) and that's why I can't see it

if you have ANY ambient light in the room, and I mean ANY, then all three(four if we count the zt) effectively produce black, and there is no longer a winner in terms of MLL. with my lights dimmed to about 10%, I can't tell the difference between on and off with the f8500. I can CLEARLY tell the difference when my lights are off though. I've heard the vt60 still displays more shadow details and has better gradation under these conditions, but I was unable to pick up on anything with my test material in the store. in terms of shadow detail and gradation, it may as well have been a tie, but if forced i'd say the f8500 and vt60 had an edge on the st60.

after my hours of viewing, I came to the conclusion that the st60 was phenomenal, the vt60 didn't seem like enough of an upgrade to justify the added cost, and the f8500 provided an overall image that was very unique. it would either appeal to you, and be the clear choice, or it wouldn't. for me, I liked it. I found it had a quality to it that couldn't really be described by any rating or standard measure that made it appealing to me. after more research, I came to the conclusion it was due to the smaller gap between pixels. still, it was subtle, and looking at a st60 or vt60 on it's own was stunning everytime. it was only when the f8500 was placed beside them that I favoured the f8500.

at any rate, we are talking about some fantastic displays that have one or two MINOR problems. I say minor, in that if you say the f8500 has the worst blacks of the bunch, it's still better than 95% of the TV's on the market today, if you say the st60 has bad input lag, it's still very reasonable, etc. but perhaps looking at what these displays don't do phenomenally is the only way to decide.
F8500: struggles with motion handling, slightly higher MLL than st60, vt60, and really high input lag if not using pc or game input labels. aggressive screen filter makes vertical viewing angle very narrow
ST60: less gradation than f8500, vt60. high input lag, least affective anti-glare filter(I've heard reports of 3d issues, but can't confirm?)
VT60: dimmer than st60 and f8500(was by far the most expensive for me, but that seems to depend on your market I guess)


Is this motion issue really that noticeable? Compared to an LED wouldn't this still preform better? I'm honestly trying to figure out if this TV is still my number one. Its quite expensive at the moment.. I don't want to have any buyers remorse thinking i should of spent less money on an LED TV. I'll say this, I love plasmas, I have a pnc638000 and love it. I know the picture quality of LEDS are lesser but for what I'm going to be using it for would it be the best choice? Gaming, sports, logo channel watching, and  watching the movie channels on direct TV.  Is this TV worth the price?

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post #9566 of 12521 Old 12-04-2013, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billabong12789 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

haha, wow... smile.gif

i'll see what I can comment on here.

I didn't spend much time researching the st50 specifically, since I started my search at the end of model year, and figured 'go with the best, get a vt50'. so if I missed something on the st50, which is totally possible, that's why.


everything I have read, when summed up(because some reviews do contradict others) suggests that in order of best to worst MLL's: vt60, st60, f8500, st50. I THINK the vt50 is just barely ahead of the st60. however, when talking about peak brightness, the f8500 is nearly double the vt60, and st60. I didn't get any data on the st50, so I assumed it wasn't twice as bright as the TV's that replaced it. as far as contrast goes, I've seen sites that claimed both the f8500 and vt60 were better, but they were always pretty close, and a noticeable step up from the st60. from the comments and reviews I've seen on here, i'd say vt60, f8500, st60 is the correct order.


now for personal, real world experience.

none of them are black, they all 'suck' compared to my old crt... but at least they are close enough, I don't really care anymore smile.gif

the st60 and vt60, and zt60 do get a touch darker than the f8500. if you can control light, you will likely be able to appreciate this at home. I don't think you'll ever be able to see this in stores. my friend works at a local a/v shop and I convinced her to turn all the lights off in the half of the store where the TV's were, the light leaking in from the other side was still enough to make it a very tough to see difference.

the only time I ever saw floating blacks on the f8500 was watching a 4:3 star trek movie early on with an older FW. when the scene went from dark to light, I noticed a change in the black bars on the sides. with new fw(and this was like 3 or 4 updates ago) this changed, and I no longer see floating blacks on that movie during those scenes. I have never seen/noticed floating blacks at any other point. if they are changing, they must be getting darker when the scene gets dark, and brighter when the scene gets bright(like crts did) and that's why I can't see it


if you have ANY ambient light in the room, and I mean ANY, then all three(four if we count the zt) effectively produce black, and there is no longer a winner in terms of MLL. with my lights dimmed to about 10%, I can't tell the difference between on and off with the f8500. I can CLEARLY tell the difference when my lights are off though. I've heard the vt60 still displays more shadow details and has better gradation under these conditions, but I was unable to pick up on anything with my test material in the store. in terms of shadow detail and gradation, it may as well have been a tie, but if forced i'd say the f8500 and vt60 had an edge on the st60.


after my hours of viewing, I came to the conclusion that the st60 was phenomenal, the vt60 didn't seem like enough of an upgrade to justify the added cost, and the f8500 provided an overall image that was very unique. it would either appeal to you, and be the clear choice, or it wouldn't. for me, I liked it. I found it had a quality to it that couldn't really be described by any rating or standard measure that made it appealing to me. after more research, I came to the conclusion it was due to the smaller gap between pixels. still, it was subtle, and looking at a st60 or vt60 on it's own was stunning everytime. it was only when the f8500 was placed beside them that I favoured the f8500.


at any rate, we are talking about some fantastic displays that have one or two MINOR problems. I say minor, in that if you say the f8500 has the worst blacks of the bunch, it's still better than 95% of the TV's on the market today, if you say the st60 has bad input lag, it's still very reasonable, etc. but perhaps looking at what these displays don't do phenomenally is the only way to decide.

F8500: struggles with motion handling, slightly higher MLL than st60, vt60, and really high input lag if not using pc or game input labels. aggressive screen filter makes vertical viewing angle very narrow

ST60: less gradation than f8500, vt60. high input lag, least affective anti-glare filter(I've heard reports of 3d issues, but can't confirm?)

VT60: dimmer than st60 and f8500(was by far the most expensive for me, but that seems to depend on your market I guess)


Is this motion issue really that noticeable? Compared to an LED wouldn't this still preform better? I'm honestly trying to figure out if this TV is still my number one. Its quite expensive at the moment.. I don't want to have any buyers remorse thinking i should of spent less money on an LED TV. I'll say this, I love plasmas, I have a pnc638000 and love it. I know the picture quality of LEDS are lesser but for what I'm going to be using it for would it be the best choice? Gaming, sports, logo channel watching, and  watching the movie channels on direct TV.  Is this TV worth the price?
Worth the price is a completely individual decision.

For what it's worth here's my POV.

When I first got the TV, I checked it with the Spears & Munsil disc to see what settings had what effects and that's when I realized that the motion resolution under ANY setting besides MJC -Smooth resulted in too much of a resolution loss to be acceptable to me. With MJC off, the movement is a juddery mess.

There are a few tests scenes on the disc that pan over complete backgrounds and I (and anyone else) can clearly see how much the image blurs without MJC on Smooth.

One of the pans is of the brickwork on the side of a building. With MJC- Smooth, all the individual bricks remain visible as the camera pans. With the other settings, the image is either juddery, or blurs enough that you can't see individual bricks anymore.

Likewise with another scene panning across some kind of park. With MJC-Smooth, the leaves on the trees can be seen whilst with any other setting the tree panning past is a blur and you can't make out the leaves.

Of course, MJC-Smooth has it's own issues. I for one, LIKE the SOE, so that's not a problem for me although it is for the many who HATE SOE. The frame interpolation on the F8500 is also not quite up to the standards of Sony's implementations.

My 3-4 year old Sony LCD (NX810) has smoother, less glitchy frame interpolation, although with more recent firmware updates, it appears that Samsung is working on improving it.

2 major frame interpolation issues I noted early on were 1) the frame interpolation would tend to 'hitch' on scene changes, i.e. it appeared that the software would take a few frames after a scene change to figure out the movement after a scene change before it sync'ed the frame interpolation. This would result in a jerk/hitch in movement after a scene change. Something the 3-4 year old Sony never did.

2) the F8500 exhibits tearing where the Sony never did. With most frame interpolation algorithms, due to a lack of processing power to do per-pixel FI, whenever an object (person or car etc.) moves in front of a complex background (chainlink fence, bushes etc.) the algorithm locks on the moving object keeping IT clear, but generally, you get a blurred halo around the object as the complex background passes. The object remains clear and intact though. With the F8500, you get the usual halo, but sometimes, the image of the object breaks up/tears. Never happened with the NX810.

This oddity also shows up if you have rapidly altering light/shadows, i.e. if a scene has a flickering light (eg. the flickering fluorescent light or shorting out lamp, or even the flickering light from a burning torch), the FI causes weird images in the flickering shadows/light. Never saw that with the NX810 either.

So, with all the Motion settings Off, you get the normal juddery picture AND extra blurriness, OR you can turn MJC On and get better motion resolution, but with the lag and artifact penalties.

With the recent firmware updates, the sync hitch seems to be less of an issue (only matters if MJC is On). The other artifacts of MJC are still evident.
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post #9567 of 12521 Old 12-04-2013, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Inseconds99 View Post

Thank you so much, I was reading that some recent firmware update fixed the input lag. The post claims instead of naming the input PC you should name the input Game, while also enabling Game Mode. I have done this and it seems like it has worked great because I have no noticeable input lag but the picture quality is just horrible because it forces you into using Standard Mode and I do not have that mode calibrated at all.

Two questions, what about all those random options in picture mode and advance mode, like motion judder or black optimizer? How do I configure those? Second if I put the picture size to screen fit, doesn't that disable pixel shift? I don't want to have and Image Retention while gaming.

calibrate it in standard mode...
it may not be AS good as the tv in movie mode, but it's still REALLY good compared to other tv's in general. i'd certainly rather be using the f8500 in standard than the 5300, or an s60, or anything with the word 'edgelit' near it

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post #9568 of 12521 Old 12-04-2013, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by titancrusher1 View Post

although, i JUST downloaded the new firmware update...it looks like they fixed the input lag issue..... try it out and im curious what your opinion is...

good news, i've been avoiding the latest updates, but now i think i'll try and report back. i can see an obvious difference moving my cursor around, so i'll see if it's improved for me too

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post #9569 of 12521 Old 12-04-2013, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by jdl15 View Post

Hi fierce_gt and fellow owners,


First of all: thanks for this great input.

I immediately tried bying myself the HDMI splitter in order to enable this, but is there any difference in picture quality? What I read on the site where I tried ordering it, was that it does not amplify the signal. Do you know if this simple splitter works? Or do you buy a more expensive one (is it therefore your's is called power splitter)? The one I tried buying costs around 20$ in Holland and it is a HDMI cable with a small "box" attached to it which has two HDMI connections:http://www.allekabels.nl/hdmi-splitter/1781/1049115/hdmi-naar-hdmi-hdmi-splitter.html
yes, i tried the cheap splitters at first too, i have my projector and plasma in the same room, so the output from my receiver needed to be split. i found it worked ok for 720p, but was way too finicky. you really need a powered(not passive) splitter for hdmi. i bought two from monoprice that have worked. one was a 2way splitter, the one i have now is a 4way splitter(added a display in the bathroom, so i needed more outputs). even still, i find there are some issues with all 4 hooked up. for example, my bathroom tv only displays 720p signal if all 4 are hooked up. it will do 1080p if i unplug the second cable going to the tv(so only 3 in total). it will complicate things, and it will increase the likelihood of handshake issues. it should not however degrade the image quality. in true digital tradition, it'll either work, or it won't. this is the splitter i'm currently using, but you may find several other options from monoprice as well: http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=101&cp_id=10113&cs_id=1011307&p_id=6192&seq=1&format=2
Quote:
Moreover, I still do not get good results when I changed the name of the HDMI2 port to gaming. I simply press up on the remote and click on name change and then I select the name "spelcomputer"biggrin.gif which means game console in Dutch. Next to that, the TV is set to gaming mode (in the settings>general>game mode). I have the exact horizontal stripes as earlier discussed, looking like this (just an example):



This occurs randomly on my PS4. But as well my BF4 soldier keeps on stepping multiple times over the same area, really annoying! It makes online multiplayer unbearable.

Now from what I've read from others is that the latest firmware should improve input lag, but in which stand:

- HDMI2, GAME MODE on and rename the input to GAME?
- HDMI2, GAME MODE on and rename the input to PC?


Of course, I would like to use the setting which does influence the graphics the least, as my eyes want to be pleased too. How do you experience this with next-gen online gaming?

When I played Xbox 360 in single player, I noticed nothing at all actually.


Well, again many thanks for your great help and I hope many others can use this useful discussion board as well.


Cheers,

Jan

not sure exactly what you're problem in, the two methods i've current had improvements with are:
SOURCE NAME: PC
SOURCE NAME: Game GAME MODE: on

in both cases, all extra processing is disabled. no 'smoothing', dynamic contrast, etc. i do have black optimizer set to 'dark room' though. i don't know if any of these affect input lag, i have them turned off because i don't like them being on.

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1018AH, 5.1 audio
Sources: HTPC(Mediabrowser), PS3, XBOX360, Wii, Sony DVP-CX995V
Control: Harmony One
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post #9570 of 12521 Old 12-04-2013, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billabong12789 View Post


Is this motion issue really that noticeable? Compared to an LED wouldn't this still preform better? I'm honestly trying to figure out if this TV is still my number one. Its quite expensive at the moment.. I don't want to have any buyers remorse thinking i should of spent less money on an LED TV. I'll say this, I love plasmas, I have a pnc638000 and love it. I know the picture quality of LEDS are lesser but for what I'm going to be using it for would it be the best choice? Gaming, sports, logo channel watching, and  watching the movie channels on direct TV.  Is this TV worth the price?

i would say it's noticeable, but i wouldn't say it bothers me. i mean, i still bought the tv and i'm very happy with it. it's just that, the panasonics do this better. so IF you are looking for the best motion handling, then you should at least check out the panasonics and see if it's something you want.

quite frankly, when i turn my head quickly, everything gets blurry anyway, so it's not like motion blur or whatever you want to call it is a jarring, unnatural looking event.

to be honest, what first drew my attention to it was my projector. on 120", a blurring image is very noticeable, and my projector(jvc x35) is known to have poor motion handling(and superb everything else). after reading, i wanted to compare it to my 'awesome plasma' because we all know plasmas have the best motion handling. and honestly, it wasn't any better. that led me down the road of discovering this was one of the f8500's weaknesses. and i say that with a smile, cause it's like saying the guy who just came in 2nd place at the olympics needs to practice more wink.gif

there are a lot of more important reasons for why i would never get an LED. but if the only thing you're trying to avoid is poor motion resolution, it may not be as superior in that one aspect as you want it to be.

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1018AH, 5.1 audio
Sources: HTPC(Mediabrowser), PS3, XBOX360, Wii, Sony DVP-CX995V
Control: Harmony One
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