Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 351 - AVS Forum
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post #10501 of 12415 Old 02-21-2014, 07:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AlaskanAVGuy View Post

199.3 cd/m²
#1 with Whites & Lights

Is that peak brightness ?
Cant it go higher than that?
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post #10502 of 12415 Old 02-21-2014, 08:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by newfmp3 View Post

Harmony users, is there a one button trick or discrete code for game mode on/off? I tried a sequence but its too long.

'Fraid not.

Do you use your gaming rig for games only? If so use a dedicated TV HDMI input setup for gaming and optical to your AVR.
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post #10503 of 12415 Old 02-21-2014, 09:56 PM
 
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PG_ICE,

 

Why would you go higher then that when most people set up their TV's for around 30-50cd/m²?

The Panasonics only reach 94cd/m², The Samsung is over TWICE the LUMENS Output at 199.3cd/m² ! If you want to look at something brighter then you can always just stare directly into the sun, but I think as long as you don't have your Samsung setup outside on the deck during the summer, you should have plenty of Brightness in your set to spare.

 

what was the point of the question, it's kinda like saying you won the race by lapping the other car and you ask if we can lap them twice....not sure I follow where your going with the question...

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post #10504 of 12415 Old 02-21-2014, 10:15 PM
 
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^It's just an academic exercise. I believe he is trying to compare it with what he's achieved on his service menu-tweaked Kuro (where he's raised the ABL level to something fairly obscene to compete with a Sony LCD set). I'm personally fine with "only" 94!
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post #10505 of 12415 Old 02-21-2014, 10:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

^It's just an academic exercise. I believe he is trying to compare it with what he's achieved on his service menu-tweaked Kuro (where he's raised the ABL level to something fairly obscene to compete with a Sony LCD set). I'm personally fine with "only" 94!

Ya that's way more than enough anyways.

 

I've read from CNET  "the F8500's only major stumbling block. The only way to achieve the correct film cadence of 1080p/24 sources, like most Blu-ray movies, is to engage the Cinema Smooth setting under Film Mode -- which lightens black levels somewhat."

 

Can anybody attest to how accurate this statement by CNET is, has their been a Firm Ware Update or something??

 

Source:

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/samsung-pn60f8500/4505-6482_7-35566923-2.html

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post #10506 of 12415 Old 02-21-2014, 10:26 PM
 
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I was hoping someone might know the answer to this question I have.....

In a CNET review on the F8500 they claim that:

 

"the F8500's only major stumbling block. The only way to achieve the correct film cadence of 1080p/24 sources, like most Blu-ray movies, is to engage the Cinema Smooth setting under Film Mode -- which lightens black levels somewhat."

 

How true is this statement which was written on 5/1/13

I'm thinking perhaps a Firmware Update might have already fixed this....if in fact this is true.

Any input guys???

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post #10507 of 12415 Old 02-21-2014, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlaskanAVGuy View Post

I was hoping someone might know the answer to this question I have.....
In a CNET review on the F8500 they claim that:

"the F8500's only major stumbling block. The only way to achieve the correct film cadence of 1080p/24 sources, like most Blu-ray movies, is to engage the Cinema Smooth setting under Film Mode -- which lightens black levels somewhat."

How true is this statement which was written on 5/1/13
I'm thinking perhaps a Firmware Update might have already fixed this....if in fact this is true.
Any input guys???

That issue with Cinema Smooth was fixed with a firmware update. That was an issue earlier on, but not anymore.

RIP Robin Williams. Thanks for the laughter.
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post #10508 of 12415 Old 02-22-2014, 01:23 AM
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Here's an old Pioneer Kuro Demo from 2008. It can really show what this pdp is capable of.

http://youtu.be/HkKkFh-HGzE
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post #10509 of 12415 Old 02-22-2014, 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by wxman View Post

That issue with Cinema Smooth was fixed with a firmware update. That was an issue earlier on, but not anymore.

In other words, we can leave :"Cinema Smooth" OFF & the correct cadence for 24p will be engaged?

Or by turning it on 24p cadence is engaged correctly, but "Black Levels" are no longer compromised?
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post #10510 of 12415 Old 02-22-2014, 04:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AlaskanAVGuy View Post

PG_ICE, what was the point of the question

the point for the question was that i thought the F8500 would go higher,thats why i asked smile.gif
IF you have calibrated your display without any white clipping or drop in gamma,you will have some insane contrast ratio with "some" content in a mid lit room with a higher peak brightness.
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post #10511 of 12415 Old 02-22-2014, 04:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leftyguitar1963 View Post

Here's an old Pioneer Kuro Demo from 2008. It can really show what this pdp is capable of.

http://youtu.be/HkKkFh-HGzE

youtube with its low bit rate

get the disc as an ISO file instead.
here it is:
https://mega.co.nz/#!9lhk1CiD!J6x5sVIXFetlyD2Xsr7eyWk2H3FLfYW3Fd-DPJl9nrI
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post #10512 of 12415 Old 02-22-2014, 05:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlaskanAVGuy View Post

Foot Lamber Minimum Output as Measured by the same source over at Sound & Vision Magazine who have a great reputation in the A/V Community.

#1   PANASONIC ZT60        0.0011ft/L
#2   PANASONIC VT60        0.0012ft/L
#3   PIONEER KURO            0.0015ft/L
#4   SAMSUNG F8500         0.0017ft/L
#5   PANASONIC GT            0.0018ft/L
#6   PANASONIC ST            0.0024ft/L

Although the Samsung F8500 rules the light output with over Twice as much as the competition with an astonishing
199.3 cd/m²
#1 with Whites & Lights

I would be VERY curious to see from information that is VERIFIABLE....about how much the average human with 20/20 vision can discern the differences in black levels this close together

especially if you are not in a room that is not absolutely pitch black

anyone have any information on the human eye and black levels?

since you have models in there from different years...the Kuro...I would also like to know where the Sharp elite( from 2011) would rank in there

something tells me it would have been right up near the top as well on your list

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post #10513 of 12415 Old 02-22-2014, 05:40 AM
 
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Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post

I would be VERY curious to see from information that is VERIFIABLE....about how much the average human with 20/20 vision can discern the differences in black levels this close together

its not all about black level and what you see or not.
contrast ratio has i big part here.

"the blacker the blacks the greater the experience"
Pioneer statement wink.gif

with those numbers you will have a glow to the blacks/greys on all of them in a dark room.
in low APL scenes you will notice the biggest difference of course.
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post #10514 of 12415 Old 02-22-2014, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by pg_ice View Post

its not all about black level and what you see or not.
contrast ratio is the name here.

"the blacker the blacks the greater the experience"
Pioneer statement wink.gif

with those numbers you will have a glow to the blacks/greys on all of them in a dark room.
in low APL scenes you will notice the biggest difference.

I agree with you

its not all about the ultimate lowest black level...especially when the levels are very close

hence my reason for not understanding why its continually brought up every few pages in this thread

I did a little digging and found some info from Sound and Vision testing of the Sharp Elite LED..in it...the reviewer says it bests the Pioneer kuro..in his opinion

"With local dimming off, the black level increased to 0.011 ft-L (though it dropped to 0.001 after a few seconds), with a peak white level of 23.49 ft-L, for a full-on/full-off contrast ratio of 2,135:1. "


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post #10515 of 12415 Old 02-22-2014, 09:04 AM
 
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Sound and Vision seems to procure strange numbers in their reviews. As far as I know, the Sharp Elite's black level has been measured to be 0.0002 fTL. Only a tweaked Kuro can go lower (and OLED of course). I'm pretty sure it's continually brought up because of its crucial significance in recreating the cinematic experience. Until you've owned sets that venture this low, it's easy to write off the differences as statistically insignificant. And if you use ambient or bias lighting regularly, you would be correct in stating the differences are harder, if not impossible, to make out.
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post #10516 of 12415 Old 02-22-2014, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leftyguitar1963 View Post

In other words, we can leave :"Cinema Smooth" OFF & the correct cadence for 24p will be engaged?

Or by turning it on 24p cadence is engaged correctly, but "Black Levels" are no longer compromised?

Turn it on and cadence is correct and black level does not rise.

RIP Robin Williams. Thanks for the laughter.
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post #10517 of 12415 Old 02-22-2014, 10:09 AM
 
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Here is what I found @WalVisions I hope this helps you understand what the Human Eye can see it's quite remarkable just how amazing we are really.

Thanks god for letting us see in UHD :)

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post


I would be VERY curious to see from information that is VERIFIABLE....about how much the average human with 20/20 vision can discern the differences in black levels this close together

especially if you are not in a room that is not absolutely pitch black

anyone have any information on the human eye and black levels?

since you have models in there from different years...the Kuro...I would also like to know where the Sharp elite( from 2011) would rank in there

something tells me it would have been right up near the top as well on your list

Warren
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post #10518 of 12415 Old 02-22-2014, 01:17 PM
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Just upgrade the firmware to 1119.1 from 1118 and got back the great black and color that the f8500 can produce ...
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post #10519 of 12415 Old 02-22-2014, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Sound and Vision seems to procure strange numbers in their reviews. As far as I know, the Sharp Elite's black level has been measured to be 0.0002 fTL. Only a tweaked Kuro can go lower (and OLED of course). I'm pretty sure it's continually brought up because of its crucial significance in recreating the cinematic experience. Until you've owned sets that venture this low, it's easy to write off the differences as statistically insignificant. And if you use ambient or bias lighting regularly, you would be correct in stating the differences are harder, if not impossible, to make out.

Agreed and I rely more on the Klein MLL numbers from the traveling calibrators which indicated .0010 - .0011 for the VT/ZT60 and .0017 - .0018 for the F8500 .0016 for the ST60.

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post #10520 of 12415 Old 02-22-2014, 02:44 PM
 
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Agreed and I rely more on the Klein MLL numbers from the traveling calibrators which indicated .0010 - .0011 for the VT/ZT60 and .0017 - .0018 for the F8500 .0016 for the ST60.


I just read on the Sound & Vision Magazine review titled (Panasonic TC-P65ZT60 3D PLASMA HDTV) from Sep 4, 2013 where they said: "The CRs shown in the current review were measured with our newly-acquired Klein K-10"

Meaning they use the Klein meters since Sept 4th last year.

 

They measured the ZT with this meter at 0.0011ft/L and the VT with the same meter at 0.0012ft/L

 

(My mistake I got confused with my reviews the Samsung wasn't by Sound&Vision but by HDTVtest uk)

Here what they say: Note: Our Samsung PS64F8500 review sample was calibrated using Calman Professional, the industry-leading video calibration software.

Their May /1/2013 and resulted in 0.0017ft/L

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post #10521 of 12415 Old 02-22-2014, 03:41 PM
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Agreed and I rely more on the Klein MLL numbers from the traveling calibrators which indicated .0010 - .0011 for the VT/ZT60 and .0017 - .0018 for the F8500 .0016 for the ST60.

Hmm. The CNet review mentions that their 8500 looked noticeably darker than the ST. Though that was a 60" vs. a 55".
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post #10522 of 12415 Old 02-22-2014, 04:23 PM
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Turn it on and cadence is correct and black level does not rise.

I just played the Blu-Ray "RED" (Bruce Willis movie a few years back). It's my go to disk to test 24p cadence. During the 1st chapter starting @ about the 3:47 mark there's an excellent "panning" camera sequence. I tried the "Cinema Smooth" & it introduced moderate juddering effect. Then I tried with CS turned off and it ran without any issues at all.
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post #10523 of 12415 Old 02-22-2014, 04:26 PM
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Hmm. The CNet review mentions that their 8500 looked noticeably darker than the ST. Though that was a 60" vs. a 55".

Keep in mind the DaveKatz review was using the 10.17 firmware.
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post #10524 of 12415 Old 02-22-2014, 05:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by leftyguitar1963 View Post

I just played the Blu-Ray "RED" (Bruce Willis movie a few years back). It's my go to disk to test 24p cadence. During the 1st chapter starting @ about the 3:47 mark there's an excellent "panning" camera sequence. I tried the "Cinema Smooth" & it introduced moderate juddering effect. Then I tried with CS turned off and it ran without any issues at all.

Interesting.
I don't rate CS that much on this TV at present.
It used to work well aside from lifting blacks. When they fixed that bug they seem to have jerry-rigged CS's smoothness as well as introduce pixel artifacts in motion.
Something is still not right with it.
Another member posted here that he thought CS was reversed (off is on). Indeed I think motion is better at 24p with CS off.
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post #10525 of 12415 Old 02-22-2014, 06:13 PM
 
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Interesting.
I don't rate CS that much on this TV at present.
It used to work well aside from lifting blacks. When they fixed that bug they seem to have jerry-rigged CS's smoothness as well as introduce pixel artifacts in motion.
Something is still not right with it.
Another member posted here that he thought CS was reversed (off is on). Indeed I think motion is better at 24p with CS off.

Hey Pie would you further say that it would be noticeable in 3D as well, I know you don't use it anyways but would their be an obvious negative effect with it on. I have read in the past from reviews with older firmware that Cinema Smooth is a good fit for 3D content. I don't use CS for other viewing types ever,  just in 3D...

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^ I don't do much 3D, so can't comment but I intend to increase that sometime soon.
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post #10527 of 12415 Old 02-22-2014, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Sound and Vision seems to procure strange numbers in their reviews. As far as I know, the Sharp Elite's black level has been measured to be 0.0002 fTL. Only a tweaked Kuro can go lower (and OLED of course). I'm pretty sure it's continually brought up because of its crucial significance in recreating the cinematic experience. Until you've owned sets that venture this low, it's easy to write off the differences as statistically insignificant. And if you use ambient or bias lighting regularly, you would be correct in stating the differences are harder, if not impossible, to make out.

I agree with crucial significance of black level in the cinematic experience

However...the differences between any of these higher end plasmas is seriously insignificant...hence my reason for asking why people keep bringing it up

its a waste of a post...it is splitting hairs over and over again

there are much bigger items one could do to make a better cinematic experience
1. Upgrade audio
2. Room treatments

either is more important..IMO....than some serious fractional amount ...which you will probably never notice..in black level


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post #10528 of 12415 Old 02-22-2014, 07:36 PM
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So which 24hz multiples does the F8500 run at?

48hz
72hz
96hz
120hz

and does it show it in the user menu like the Panny's?
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post #10529 of 12415 Old 02-22-2014, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leftyguitar1963 View Post

I just played the Blu-Ray "RED" (Bruce Willis movie a few years back). It's my go to disk to test 24p cadence. During the 1st chapter starting @ about the 3:47 mark there's an excellent "panning" camera sequence. I tried the "Cinema Smooth" & it introduced moderate juddering effect. Then I tried with CS turned off and it ran without any issues at all.

When you turned CS off, did you then go into MJC and turn it on to smooth, and turn it back off again? Then watch the same scene. Turning CS off, turns MJC on, even though it says it is off. So you have to turn MJC on then off again (FW bug). Otherwise, what you see is the soap opera effect. The Samsung, along with most plasmas, even the Kuros, fail the 24p and 30p motion tests on the Spears and Munsil 2 disc. In other words, you will see judder. I just looked at the scene. When I turn CS off, it is the soap opera effect. I went in and turned MJC to smooth and then back to off, and the judder is worse with CS off, compared to it on.

RIP Robin Williams. Thanks for the laughter.
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post #10530 of 12415 Old 02-22-2014, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterLewis View Post

So which 24hz multiples does the F8500 run at?

48hz
72hz
96hz
120hz

and does it show it in the user menu like the Panny's?

With CS on it is at 96hz or 4:4. With it off I believe it is basically like turning 24p off and viewing a 2:3 cadence.

RIP Robin Williams. Thanks for the laughter.
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