Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 367 - AVS Forum
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post #10981 of 12747 Old 03-14-2014, 01:58 PM
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ok, decided to take a little initiative...

INPUT LAG TESTS BELOW

I have a 64" f8500, running fw 1119. the following tests are COMPARATIVE only, and should not be taken as a measure of actual input lag times(although I think it's safe to assume input lag's cannot be less than what I measured, haha). the other display is some old 'electron' lcd I had lieing around. I have no idea if it's a low input lag screen or not, but no settings were touched on it during the testing.

RESULTS:

normal viewing mode. I have the input name set as AVR, game mode is off
~120ms


Name set to GAME, game mode off(I've included two pictures because this was the only test that wasn't consistent. I took several shots of all the others and they were consistent other than this one)
~110-120ms



Name set to GAME, game mode on
~50ms


Name set to AVR, game mode on(to see if renaming to game actually does anything)
~50ms


Name set to PC
~30-40ms *in all 8 pics I took, the numbers were just changing, it always seemed to be just over 30ms, so I'm estimated a bit on this one. this was the first one I tested, and I guess I should have used a faster shutter speed, sorry


so, my conclusion is:
-aside from PC, the name of the input doesn't matter.
-the 'normal' input lag is around 110-120ms (worse than my other display)
-turning on game mode cuts that down about 60-70ms to 'only' 50ms (worse than my other display)
-PC mode is even better, trimming another ~15-20ms from game mode, for a measure of about 35ish ms (worse than my other display)


for me, I'm going to be using PC mode for gaming. not so much for that extra quickness(although why not?) but because I did observe some screen tearing in SOME games using game mode, and I did not when using PC mode. the picture quality is still high enough in PC mode for me when gaming. I tend to not have 'accurate' settings when gaming anyway, as I like to see what's hiding in the shadows, haha

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1018AH, 5.1 audio
Sources: HTPC(Mediabrowser), PS3, XBOX360, Wii, Sony DVP-CX995V
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post #10982 of 12747 Old 03-14-2014, 02:03 PM
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I'm going to thumb you up first before reading. You have know idea how much I love you! biggrin.gif Thank you! biggrin.gif
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post #10983 of 12747 Old 03-14-2014, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by KOF View Post

I'm going to thumb you up first before reading. You have know idea how much I love you! biggrin.gif Thank you! biggrin.gif

eek.gif that doesn't sound good, haha

but you are more than welcome, this was something I was very curious about myself, so it only made sense to share it

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post #10984 of 12747 Old 03-14-2014, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

eek.gif that doesn't sound good, haha

but you are more than welcome, this was something I was very curious about myself, so it only made sense to share it

Man, your post has cured my migraine! biggrin.gif I was always curious about it and seeing as input lag was the reason I chose Panasonic S60 instead of the F8500.

Now I'm going to kick myself for not buying the open box 60 inch F8500 for $1530 in Niagara Falls when I had the chance. tongue.gif I was so peeved off when the 65 inch Panasonic S64 I've bought from Sam's Club had arrived with shattered glass. It was hell going back and forth from Toronto to the US.
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post #10985 of 12747 Old 03-14-2014, 06:51 PM
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I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but when it comes right down to it, movie mode IS more 'accurate' and has more calibration options.

the only thing I disagree with is movie mode looking dull?

interesting that you mentioned the screen tearing, as I experience that playing NHL14, and wondered if it was because I changed from using PC mode to game mode. I thought game mode was just as quick, but allowed a few more calibration options and perhaps a better overall picture. I never got around to changing it back to test it out, but after what you said, I'm pretty sure that's exactly my problem.

Let me explain the dull comment.

The TV is not "dull"

But, bright day and lots of light + a bright easy to see game like NHL14 using movie mode = no problem to see at all
Take the same bright day and play something like a shooter during a dark scene and now I am wanting some extra "pop" in order to see details. Standard mode gives me that extra pop even at a low cell.

btw, big time thanks for the lag tests. What program do you use for that? I want to try it.

Any other games you see tearing on? I haven't see any yet. I do not have nhl14. Do you have all the image enhancement nonsense off during game mode?
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post #10986 of 12747 Old 03-14-2014, 08:14 PM
 
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ok, decided to take a little initiative...so, my conclusion is..

Quality post thanks! smile.gif
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post #10987 of 12747 Old 03-14-2014, 09:12 PM
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Hi everyone,

I would appreciate if someone could assist me in verifying something. Basically, I recently purchased a PN60F8500 in Canada, manufactured in November of 2013. When plugging the HDMI cable, I noticed that there was a very small gap between the edge of the bezel and the metal back cover on both sides. I just assumed this was normal. However, I went to a local electronics store and looked at their display model which was made in June of 2013, and it had a rubber gasket seal on both sides of the panel wedged between the edge of the back cover and bezel. I am including the pics of both sets. Sorry for the blurry photo.

I also looked at several photos online and noticed that most of them show that there is a small gap (like my TV) rather than a rubber gasket in between the two pieces. I would appreciate it if anyone could provide me with some insight and let me know whether their TV has or does not have this rubber seal. I am thinking that either Samsung stopped putting this piece in place at some point in manufacturing or perhaps the one at my local store was repaired by Samsung and that is when they installed this "kit".

Thanks in advance.


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post #10988 of 12747 Old 03-14-2014, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by newfmp3 View Post

Let me explain the dull comment.

The TV is not "dull"

But, bright day and lots of light + a bright easy to see game like NHL14 using movie mode = no problem to see at all
Take the same bright day and play something like a shooter during a dark scene and now I am wanting some extra "pop" in order to see details. Standard mode gives me that extra pop even at a low cell.

btw, big time thanks for the lag tests. What program do you use for that? I want to try it.

Any other games you see tearing on? I haven't see any yet. I do not have nhl14. Do you have all the image enhancement nonsense off during game mode?

I've only really played two games since I noticed the screen tearing, nhl14, and south park stick of truth. I've only seen the screen tear on NHL14, and since I am now going to be using PC mode, I'm guessing I won't be able to help any further on that.

I guess I know what you're talking about for games. I always turn up the brightness on my games so I can see what's hiding in the shadows. I definitely don't want 'accurate' for gaming, I want to see everything I can, haha.

I just google searched 'input lag test' and I think it was the 3rd or 4th link down. hdtvtest or something like that. quick little app to download.

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
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post #10989 of 12747 Old 03-14-2014, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bboris77 View Post

Hi everyone,

I would appreciate if someone could assist me in verifying something. Basically, I recently purchased a PN60F8500 in Canada, manufactured in November of 2013. When plugging the HDMI cable, I noticed that there was a very small gap between the edge of the bezel and the metal back cover on both sides. I just assumed this was normal. However, I went to a local electronics store and looked at their display model which was made in June of 2013, and it had a rubber gasket seal on both sides of the panel wedged between the edge of the back cover and bezel. I am including the pics of both sets. Sorry for the blurry photo.

I also looked at several photos online and noticed that most of them show that there is a small gap (like my TV) rather than a rubber gasket in between the two pieces. I would appreciate it if anyone could provide me with some insight and let me know whether their TV has or does not have this rubber seal. I am thinking that either Samsung stopped putting this piece in place at some point in manufacturing or perhaps the one at my local store was repaired by Samsung and that is when they installed this "kit".

Thanks in advance.

from what I can see on mine, no gasket. but it doesn't look like much of a 'gap' either. maybe 1-2mm tops.

purchased mine in Canada april 2013(not sure of build date though)

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1018AH, 5.1 audio
Sources: HTPC(Mediabrowser), PS3, XBOX360, Wii, Sony DVP-CX995V
Control: Harmony One
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post #10990 of 12747 Old 03-14-2014, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

from what I can see on mine, no gasket. but it doesn't look like much of a 'gap' either. maybe 1-2mm tops.

purchased mine in Canada april 2013(not sure of build date though)

Ok, thanks. That is exactly what I am talking about. A very small gap. Perhaps it helps with ventilation smile.gif
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post #10991 of 12747 Old 03-14-2014, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

ok, decided to take a little initiative...

INPUT LAG TESTS BELOW

I have a 64" f8500, running fw 1119. the following tests are COMPARATIVE only, and should not be taken as a measure of actual input lag times(although I think it's safe to assume input lag's cannot be less than what I measured, haha). the other display is some old 'electron' lcd I had lieing around. I have no idea if it's a low input lag screen or not, but no settings were touched on it during the testing.

RESULTS:

normal viewing mode. I have the input name set as AVR, game mode is off
~120ms


Name set to GAME, game mode off(I've included two pictures because this was the only test that wasn't consistent. I took several shots of all the others and they were consistent other than this one)
~110-120ms



Name set to GAME, game mode on
~50ms


Name set to AVR, game mode on(to see if renaming to game actually does anything)
~50ms


Name set to PC
~30-40ms *in all 8 pics I took, the numbers were just changing, it always seemed to be just over 30ms, so I'm estimated a bit on this one. this was the first one I tested, and I guess I should have used a faster shutter speed, sorry


so, my conclusion is:
-aside from PC, the name of the input doesn't matter.
-the 'normal' input lag is around 110-120ms (worse than my other display)
-turning on game mode cuts that down about 60-70ms to 'only' 50ms (worse than my other display)
-PC mode is even better, trimming another ~15-20ms from game mode, for a measure of about 35ish ms (worse than my other display)


for me, I'm going to be using PC mode for gaming. not so much for that extra quickness(although why not?) but because I did observe some screen tearing in SOME games using game mode, and I did not when using PC mode. the picture quality is still high enough in PC mode for me when gaming. I tend to not have 'accurate' settings when gaming anyway, as I like to see what's hiding in the shadows, haha

Your tests basically conclude that input lag has not changed a bit. If you are getting 40ms with the camera method, using a non crt comparison display (that lcd will have at least 12ms input lag), it is certainly going to be more than that, easily reaching the measured 62ms it is known to have. A forum member on here was posting how firmware had fixed his f8000's input lag, and said he felt a huge difference. Well, I recently tested an f8000 with the latest firmware with an LB input lag tester and it has not changed at all. It is safe to say the f8500 is still at its measured 62ms, and trust me, I wish it was lower because the f8500 is the only tv that currently interests me. frown.gif If Samsung was even the least but concerned about input lag, they would have addressed the issue on their new OLED tv's, and they did not.
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post #10992 of 12747 Old 03-14-2014, 11:18 PM - Thread Starter
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It's always advisable to have a copy of your settings saved somewhere or written down just incase. You don't want an update or reset to mess up your valuable & paid for settings.
That's one plus for getting calibration, a good calibrator stores the settings for his clients wink.gif
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post #10993 of 12747 Old 03-15-2014, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post

Your tests basically conclude that input lag has not changed a bit. If you are getting 40ms with the camera method, using a non crt comparison display (that lcd will have at least 12ms input lag), it is certainly going to be more than that, easily reaching the measured 62ms it is known to have. A forum member on here was posting how firmware had fixed his f8000's input lag, and said he felt a huge difference. Well, I recently tested an f8000 with the latest firmware with an LB input lag tester and it has not changed at all. It is safe to say the f8500 is still at its measured 62ms, and trust me, I wish it was lower because the f8500 is the only tv that currently interests me. frown.gif If Samsung was even the least but concerned about input lag, they would have addressed the issue on their new OLED tv's, and they did not.

yes, I never noticed any difference with lag from when I bought it last april. it was always my belief that that the overall performance had not changed. the question was, what setting is best. I could not tell a difference between game mode and PC mode, but it seems clear to me now that PC is slightly quicker. at a 'measured' 30-40ms more than a cheap LCD, 62ms might be high, but it's not impossible. as I said, I have no idea what the input lag is on the comparison display, and none of my measurements can be used as anything other than comparative measures between settings.

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
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post #10994 of 12747 Old 03-15-2014, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post

Your tests basically conclude that input lag has not changed a bit. If you are getting 40ms with the camera method, using a non crt comparison display (that lcd will have at least 12ms input lag), it is certainly going to be more than that, easily reaching the measured 62ms it is known to have. A forum member on here was posting how firmware had fixed his f8000's input lag, and said he felt a huge difference. Well, I recently tested an f8000 with the latest firmware with an LB input lag tester and it has not changed at all. It is safe to say the f8500 is still at its measured 62ms, and trust me, I wish it was lower because the f8500 is the only tv that currently interests me. frown.gif If Samsung was even the least but concerned about input lag, they would have addressed the issue on their new OLED tv's, and they did not.

I'm not sure if you should be adding 12ms input lag as both LCD's (TV and laptop) would have an input lag that should cancel each other. The CNET Leo Bodnar test was around 49 ms a while back, so 40 ms isn't that far off. I'd like to believe that the latest firmwares have improved processing speed. Originally, 140ms was the lag for regular TV so 120ms is an improvement.

My K/D ratio is 1.8 on Battlefield 4 when I have great ping with no lag, but goes down to 1.1 when I get rubberbanded playing on this TV. Ping time and network lag is the biggest factor in online gaming, not the 40ms input lag.
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post #10995 of 12747 Old 03-15-2014, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

I've only really played two games since I noticed the screen tearing, nhl14, and south park stick of truth. I've only seen the screen tear on NHL14, and since I am now going to be using PC mode, I'm guessing I won't be able to help any further on that.

I guess I know what you're talking about for games. I always turn up the brightness on my games so I can see what's hiding in the shadows. I definitely don't want 'accurate' for gaming, I want to see everything I can, haha.

I just google searched 'input lag test' and I think it was the 3rd or 4th link down. hdtvtest or something like that. quick little app to download.

are you using screen fit or 16:9 when gaming?
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post #10996 of 12747 Old 03-15-2014, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by newfmp3 View Post

are you using screen fit or 16:9 when gaming?

I always use screen fit

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post #10997 of 12747 Old 03-15-2014, 08:59 PM
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I'm not sure if you should be adding 12ms input lag as both LCD's (TV and laptop) would have an input lag that should cancel each other. The CNET Leo Bodnar test was around 49 ms a while back, so 40 ms isn't that far off. I'd like to believe that the latest firmwares have improved processing speed. Originally, 140ms was the lag for regular TV so 120ms is an improvement.

My K/D ratio is 1.8 on Battlefield 4 when I have great ping with no lag, but goes down to 1.1 when I get rubberbanded playing on this TV. Ping time and network lag is the biggest factor in online gaming, not the 40ms input lag.

whatever way you look at it, my measures were input lag times MORE than my comparative lcd screen. for all I know that little screen has 50ms of input lag(I doubt it, but I don't KNOW).

so again, the only thing I can really say is that game mode reduces lag significantly, and pc mode is slightly better than game mode.

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
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post #10998 of 12747 Old 03-16-2014, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post

If Samsung was even the least but concerned about input lag, they would have addressed the issue on their new OLED tv's, and they did not.

I wonder with the updated Evo Kit that is promised to be available for the 2013 F8500s, that it might be able to solve some of the lag issues??

Maybe doing a massive email campaign/petition to Samsung might give results.

I actually saw this approach work years ago, in getting support for widescreen gaming ratios supported.

If someone heads this up - you have 2 votes here (wife & I) plus all my friends will go & vote...

Nothing to loose...
& Samsung would get more $

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post #10999 of 12747 Old 03-16-2014, 11:17 AM
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Can anyone comment on how much heat the 64" puts off? My concern is too much in a bedroom. My old samsung plasma is a heater. Thanks.
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post #11000 of 12747 Old 03-16-2014, 12:36 PM
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Can anyone comment on how much heat the 64" puts off? My concern is too much in a bedroom. My old samsung plasma is a heater. Thanks.

The hotter the bedroom the better smile.gif

My 60" gets warm. I am considering getting some usb fans for the summer months.
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post #11001 of 12747 Old 03-16-2014, 12:53 PM
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what do you guys consider acceptable input lag?

it's been many years since I've gamed on a crt, and obviously nobody even talked about input lag back then so I never paid any attention to it. sometimes I wonder if I suck extra badly because of high lag, haha. other times I think I'm so used to 40+ms of input lag, I wouldn't know what to do without it anymore

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post #11002 of 12747 Old 03-16-2014, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

what do you guys consider acceptable input lag?

it's been many years since I've gamed on a crt, and obviously nobody even talked about input lag back then so I never paid any attention to it. sometimes I wonder if I suck extra badly because of high lag, haha. other times I think I'm so used to 40+ms of input lag, I wouldn't know what to do without it anymore

For gaming monitors ~15-20ms or so was fine for all but the most rabid gamers - a lot liked it when ~5ms monitors only became cheap.

BUT then the "how that is measured" wars started rolleyes.gif

If you can accept what you have - ignore it or you just might fixate on it & phreak for evermore smile.gif

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post #11003 of 12747 Old 03-16-2014, 05:50 PM
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oh yeah, no worries, I'm as content as can be. it's just hard to know what all these numbers mean without much experience. the f8500 is the first time input lag as really even been on my radar. so I have no idea what the half dozen or so other flat screens I've had were like(if they were 20's or 80's??), and before that it was always crt as I really preferred the way they look(even to this day in some regards). are all crt's essentially lag free? or was it just that they usually came in under 10-15ms so nobody really cared to discuss it except for competitive gamers?

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post #11004 of 12747 Old 03-16-2014, 11:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bboris77 View Post

Hi everyone,

I would appreciate if someone could assist me in verifying something. Basically, I recently purchased a PN60F8500 in Canada, manufactured in November of 2013. When plugging the HDMI cable, I noticed that there was a very small gap between the edge of the bezel and the metal back cover on both sides. I just assumed this was normal. However, I went to a local electronics store and looked at their display model which was made in June of 2013, and it had a rubber gasket seal on both sides of the panel wedged between the edge of the back cover and bezel. I am including the pics of both sets. Sorry for the blurry photo.

I also looked at several photos online and noticed that most of them show that there is a small gap (like my TV) rather than a rubber gasket in between the two pieces. I would appreciate it if anyone could provide me with some insight and let me know whether their TV has or does not have this rubber seal. I am thinking that either Samsung stopped putting this piece in place at some point in manufacturing or perhaps the one at my local store was repaired by Samsung and that is when they installed this "kit".
You would be surprised what they forget to do at the factory some times......
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post #11005 of 12747 Old 03-17-2014, 04:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

You would be surprised what they forget to do at the factory some times......

Oh, I can imagine stuff gets forgotten, that is exactly why I was asking whether other people have this rubber gasket on theirs. What about your TV - does it have this seal?
This is an expensive TV and I just want to make sure I test it and inspect it fully while I am in my exchange period.
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post #11006 of 12747 Old 03-17-2014, 05:28 AM
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For those of you interested in more information on the H5000 and H7000 read this forum.
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=236849
About 5 pages some good info on the H7000 although not written in stone.

Rob

Looks like the H7000 is not going to happen after all:

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/samsung-h7000-201403153671.htm
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post #11007 of 12747 Old 03-17-2014, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by bboris77 View Post

Oh, I can imagine stuff gets forgotten, that is exactly why I was asking whether other people have this rubber gasket on theirs. What about your TV - does it have this seal?
This is an expensive TV and I just want to make sure I test it and inspect it fully while I am in my exchange period.

My 60" F8500 has no such gasket (Sept 2013 build)

Strange, Samsung offered a foam/rubber strip for around the bezel to be put in by their techs at customers homes, to cure buzzing on previous years plasma models.(free if your model required it)

-all the way back to 2009 (2007??)

Maybe the 2013s buzz can't be fixed by it?? - Too bad!!

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post #11008 of 12747 Old 03-17-2014, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Dougofthenorth View Post

My 60" F8500 has no such gasket (Sept 2013 build)

Strange, Samsung offered a foam/rubber strip for around the bezel to be put in by their techs at customers homes, to cure buzzing on previous years plasma models.(free if your model required it)

-all the way back to 2009 (2007??)

Maybe the 2013s buzz can't be fixed by it?? - Too bad!!

This is why my assumption was that the display model in my local electronics store may have been serviced by Samsung for something else, and then they installed the rubber strip.
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post #11009 of 12747 Old 03-17-2014, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by bboris77 View Post


This is why my assumption was that the display model in my local electronics store may have been serviced by Samsung for something else, and then they installed the rubber strip.

 

 

Interesting. I returned two F8500's that had obnoxious directional buzzing...definitely didn't have that rubber gasket. It sucked too because I loved the picture, but just couldn't live with the noise. Funny thing is I had a Samsung tech by my house, who was basically useless and didn't do anything. Wish I would have known about this then.

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post #11010 of 12747 Old 03-17-2014, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by bboris77 View Post

This is why my assumption was that the display model in my local electronics store may have been serviced by Samsung for something else, and then they installed the rubber strip.

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Originally Posted by bullme109 View Post


Interesting. I returned two F8500's that had obnoxious directional buzzing...definitely didn't have that rubber gasket. It sucked too because I loved the picture, but just couldn't live with the noise. Funny thing is I had a Samsung tech by my house, who was basically useless and didn't do anything. Wish I would have known about this then.

I had a tech here twice - no such mod foam kit mentioned/installed either

I wonder why Samsung stopped this? - maybe the bezels are different enough that the old kits don't work & they don't want to bear the cost of designing & paying for techs to go around installing them.
But, I did notice (& others also) that when pressing on the bezel buzzing increases or new buzzes happen - 60" are the worst for buzz...
Still any of this is no excuse for Sammy on this... mad.gif

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