Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 37 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1081 of 12948 Old 04-04-2013, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by ptlurking View Post

Variable Black Levels between sets???

I just got back from the local BB / Magnolia where they had a 51" F8500 on display.
The Black Levels on this set were glowing a very dark gray... not black.
This is a totally different result from what I saw a couple of nights ago on a 64" F8500.

I asked the associate to verify what mode the set was in (there was no remote available for me to play around).
He fiddled with the TV's rear controls and we confirmed it was in Movie Mode... Cell Light 19, Contrast 90, Brightness 45.

I then asked him to put in a Blu Ray I'm very familiar with (Iron Man) so we could adjust Brightness.
We turned the Brightness down to 38...that helped a bit, but Full Black Screen still glowed a very dark gray.

Again, this is nothing like what I saw the other night on a 64" F8500.

Could this just be that the 51" has poorer Black Levels than the 64"?
Or...is there a problem with this particular set?

Anybody else had a chance to look at both the 51" and 64"?

Search this thread, plenty of guys with the 51 including VE and Cleveland Plasma.. I imagine something was not right with the one you saw..
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post #1082 of 12948 Old 04-04-2013, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by ptlurking View Post

I assume your comment was for me regarding the Black Levels... right?
Unfortunately I did not check those settings.

Yes it was wink.gif I keep getting distracted when posting and usually someone gets inbetween my post and the post I am replying to....
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post #1083 of 12948 Old 04-04-2013, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by headlesschickens View Post

It's also possible that the RGB black level was set incorrectly on the TV. Regular video content uses 16-235, leaving 0-15 and 236-255 unused. Computers (consoles may have an option for this as well) on the other hand will use the full 0-255 range. Basically, if the TV was set to "full" RGB range it'll render the black from a source set up for 16-235 (which is the format all movies and TV shows are in) as a dark grey (value 16).

For someone who doesn't know what they're doing when setting up a TV, the common name for 0-255 mode ("full range") might sound appealing.

I don't know what this setting is called on the F8500, but it's definitely there. Might be worth going back and seeing if it's set correctly (someone else here will be able to name the setting specifically, I hope). This would fit with lowering the brightness improving the black level, as lowering the brightness will "crush" blacks and in this case bring the level it's rendering as grey (16) closer to 0. When the TV and source are set up properly, lowering brightness below the default (50 I assume) shouldn't really have any impact on the black level.

I will head back over tomorrow when I have more time and play around with it.
Hopefully the issue is with the RGB vs HDMI settings.

And, hopefully they can locate the remote... Sheesh!
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post #1084 of 12948 Old 04-04-2013, 12:11 PM
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I had no larger sizes to compare it to, but the 51" had good black levels. They matched or slightly bettered the GT50 near it. When I saw the 64" the blacks looked possibly only slightly better but again this time I didn't have the 51" to compare to so I can't say for sure. Although with the 64" I would say they did look noticeably better than the GT50 next to it because the lighting was brighter in that store as compared to when I saw the 51". So that could just mean that the filter on the 8500 is more aggressive than the GT50 (which I think is the case)

But having said that I would not be surprised if the 51" has higher mll. The past couple years sizes have varied greatly. Seems like they have at least narrowed the gap though. The 51" e8000 had very dissapointing black levels compared to the pretty good level of the 60" + sizes.
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post #1085 of 12948 Old 04-04-2013, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptlurking View Post

Variable Black Levels between sets???

I just got back from the local BB / Magnolia where they had a 51" F8500 on display.
The Black Levels on this set were glowing a very dark gray... not black.
This is a totally different result from what I saw a couple of nights ago on a 64" F8500.

I asked the associate to verify what mode the set was in (there was no remote available for me to play around).
He fiddled with the TV's rear controls and we confirmed it was in Movie Mode... Cell Light 19, Contrast 90, Brightness 45.

I then asked him to put in a Blu Ray I'm very familiar with (Iron Man) so we could adjust Brightness.
We turned the Brightness down to 38...that helped a bit, but Full Black Screen still glowed a very dark gray.

Again, this is nothing like what I saw the other night on a 64" F8500.

Could this just be that the 51" has poorer Black Levels than the 64"?
Or...is there a problem with this particular set?

Anybody else had a chance to look at both the 51" and 64"?

all i can tell you is i have the 51" and the blacks are BLACK!!!
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post #1086 of 12948 Old 04-04-2013, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

^^^^^

See that's the thing -- some things are really obviously wrong with a picture and some things are so subtle I never noticed until I started hanging around here. The fall from grace begins when we become namers, knowers and labelers. Once a person comes to this forum and learns the words and concepts the human mind -- given this new information -- begins to look for evidence so as to support the acceptance of this information.

Ignorance can truly be bliss.

Ignorance doesn't work for me. I see the problem myself, I think "what is that," I come here, search, ask. Sometimes, it's a common problem and I put a name to the problem. Sometimes, it's just my set or my over sensitivity. In any case, the forum helps me decide if it's a problem I can fix or something I have to live with (or don't want to live with)

Examples: I saw all white background in ads looking kind of grey. Did some reading, learned about ABL. Decided ok, I can live with that... I read some posts mentioning fluctuating brightness. Didn't know what that was about, ignored it. Then I got a Samsung, noticed the problem, went back and read about it, tried various "fixes" that did not work. Now I'm wary about it... As for LCD/LED, I saw light leaks, flash lighting, blooming, SOE before I learned the terms for them.

I can't think of a single instance where something that hadn't been a problem became one because I read about it. My OCDs are autogenic, not community acquired smile.gif

One thing I recommend is once you've settled on the set you're happy with and have it all set up and tweaked to your best ability, leave the display forums until the thing breaks or you are ready to upgrade. There's little to be gained hanging around here, except lust, envy, discontent.
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post #1087 of 12948 Old 04-04-2013, 12:20 PM
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i notice that samsung, on its site, doesn't indicate the 'steps of gradation' detail for the 8500, whereas panasonic claims the zt60 is capable of 30,720 gradation steps.
does anyone know anything about this? and, is there a point where the number of steps becomes imperceivable and therefore needless?
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post #1088 of 12948 Old 04-04-2013, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljmart View Post

all i can tell you is i have the 51" and the blacks are BLACK!!!

That's what I'm talking about lol...
Picking mine up tomorrow and I can't wait, feel like a kid on Christmas Eve again!! biggrin.gif
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post #1089 of 12948 Old 04-04-2013, 12:31 PM
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interesting read....

http://www.maximumpc.com/article/features/display_myths_shattered
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post #1090 of 12948 Old 04-04-2013, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barth2k View Post

Ignorance doesn't work for me. I see the problem myself, I think "what is that," I come here, search, ask. Sometimes, it's a common problem and I put a name to the problem. Sometimes, it's just my set or my over sensitivity. In any case, the forum helps me decide if it's a problem I can fix or something I have to live with (or don't want to live with)

Examples: I saw all white background in ads looking kind of grey. Did some reading, learned about ABL. Decided ok, I can live with that... I read some posts mentioning fluctuating brightness. Didn't know what that was about, ignored it. Then I got a Samsung, noticed the problem, went back and read about it, tried various "fixes" that did not work. Now I'm wary about it... As for LCD/LED, I saw light leaks, flash lighting, blooming, SOE before I learned the terms for them.

I can't think of a single instance where something that hadn't been a problem became one because I read about it. My OCDs are autogenic, not community acquired smile.gif

One thing I recommend is once you've settled on the set you're happy with and have it all set up and tweaked to your best ability, leave the display forums until the thing breaks or you are ready to upgrade. There's little to be gained hanging around here, except lust, envy, discontent.

Barth2k, thats not what we were reffering to, we were tlaking about those who dont see anything, but then go looking for something becasue the see ti reported on the forums. Its a totally different case if you SEE something and then investigate.......When it comes down to it, if you dont see it, dont go "looking" for it because youll end up never being happy with all of the problems that are uncovered in the forums......Its one thing if you see these things and look for what they are or try to find out more, its another thing if you dont see things and then go looking for problems.....
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post #1091 of 12948 Old 04-04-2013, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Pinger View Post

That's what I'm talking about lol...
Picking mine up tomorrow and I can't wait, feel like a kid on Christmas Eve again!! biggrin.gif

sweet! yes, i could hardly stand the wait for mine! every day was pure torture! lol. i absolutely love it smile.gif

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post #1092 of 12948 Old 04-04-2013, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptlurking View Post

Variable Black Levels between sets???

I just got back from the local BB / Magnolia where they had a 51" F8500 on display.
The Black Levels on this set were glowing a very dark gray... not black.
This is a totally different result from what I saw a couple of nights ago on a 64" F8500.

I asked the associate to verify what mode the set was in (there was no remote available for me to play around).
He fiddled with the TV's rear controls and we confirmed it was in Movie Mode... Cell Light 19, Contrast 90, Brightness 45.

I then asked him to put in a Blu Ray I'm very familiar with (Iron Man) so we could adjust Brightness.
We turned the Brightness down to 38...that helped a bit, but Full Black Screen still glowed a very dark gray.

Again, this is nothing like what I saw the other night on a 64" F8500.

Could this just be that the 51" has poorer Black Levels than the 64"?
Or...is there a problem with this particular set?

Anybody else had a chance to look at both the 51" and 64"?

What you might want to try is comparing how the display looks with full black screen to how it looks when it's off.

Were the lighting conditions the same? Unless the light-rejecting filters have been drastically improved on the F8500, all plasmas will have washed out blacks in a bright environment due to the construction of the panel. Then as you decrease the amount of ambient light, the blacks will appear darker and darker, until a certain point. After that, the blacks will actually start appearing brighter as you darken the room, since your eyes are now ultra-sensitive to any amount of light. Basically, there's a threshold point where the blacks will appear the darkest; it's when the room is dark enough to prevent excessive light from entering the screen, but bright enough so that your eyes less sensitive to light.
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post #1093 of 12948 Old 04-04-2013, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Barth2k, thats not what we were reffering to, we were tlaking about those who dont see anything, but then go looking for something becasue the see ti reported on the forums. Its a totally different case if you SEE something and then investigate.......When it comes down to it, if you dont see it, dont go "looking" for it because youll end up never being happy with all of the problems that are uncovered in the forums......Its one thing if you see these things and look for what they are or try to find out more, its another thing if you dont see things and then go looking for problems.....

ditto! not much in life that is PERFECT!!!

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post #1094 of 12948 Old 04-04-2013, 12:59 PM
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Kevin Miller reviewed all three sizes and didn't report any meaningful difference.

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post #1095 of 12948 Old 04-04-2013, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ljmart View Post

interesting read....

http://www.maximumpc.com/article/features/display_myths_shattered

thank you for the article; good info in there.
so, it's more a question of whether or not a tv can display 16.8 million colors, then? unless one is dealing with non-24bit content?
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post #1096 of 12948 Old 04-04-2013, 01:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Chris, have you seen any brightness fluctuations?
We did not see any on ours, but we did not watch much bright content either.......
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post #1097 of 12948 Old 04-04-2013, 01:44 PM
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So based on some of the reports here, I made a special trip to Robert's VE store just to check out the brightness pops. Robert & Wendy fed the same signal through to the 60" F8500, 64" F8500 and 55" E8000. Since the E8000 doesn't have these reported brightness pops, we used that as a benchmark in the event we saw something on the plasmas. We certainly know it has no impact from ABL since there is no ABL on the F8000.

So after spending about 2 hours with different material, mostly bright, and yes, hockey, lots of hockey, here's what we saw:

* Initially, watching a bunch of hockey on Directv, we saw no brightness pops. We saw plenty of camera flashes that were easily discernible on all units and we were beginning to doubt we'd see it at all.

* However, after about 10 minutes of doing this, I finally spotted a scene where the camera panned along the ice toward a goal, and I was pretty sure I saw 2 distinct pops in succession. We re-cued the scene and Robert saw it too. They were two distinct (relatively speaking since we were really examining this closely) brightness inceases in rapid sequence. The first brightened the picture a bit and the 2nd a bit more. It was 100% repeatable every time we played that scene back.

* To confirm this was not in the source, we went over the F8000 and played the scene again. No pops.

* We looked for more instances of this with more hockey, a BD that had plenty of downhill skiing containing brilliant full-screen and nearly full-screen snow and frequent periods of skiers going into shade. So IOW, a rapid bright-dark-bright transition not unlike the hockey game. We saw nothing, zero, nada. There was just no popping to be seen.

* Going back to the popping we did see in that one scene, we found the magnitude of the impact of the camera flashes during the hockey game to be more distracting than the one clear instance of the brightness pop. The camera flashes were just brighter and more intrusive in both Robert's and my opinion. You simply can't watch these games without almost constant flashes. So the impact of that one instance of popping was, IMO, just not anything to get nuts over. YMMV.

* Now for the good news for those that are bothered by this (count me as one definitely not based on what we saw). We tried the "Cal Day" mode that Kevin had calibrated previously. We re-cued the scene where the pops were visible and this time, nothing, nada, zippo. The Cal Day mode totally, 100% got rid of the one instance of popping that we saw. This was true of both the 60" and 64" F8500.

* So it would appear there is definitely some setting or combination of settings, contained within the Cal Day grouping, that eliminates this popping.

* Again, on these calibrated F8500s, Robert and I were just not at all 'wowed' by even that one instance of 'popping'. In fact we had to show it to Wendy about 3 times before she was able to pick it up. But I did see it on the first instance of playback, and I think Robert did too. But again, that was it and we spent 2 hours looking for additional instances with no success...and trust me, we looked really closely just for this issue.

Personally, I feel much better about this issue after spending some 'quality time' with Robert and his calibrated displays.

I really appreciate Robert & Wendy spending the time to do this. I will tell you with all sincerity that Robert absolutely wanted to identify both the presence and magnitude of the issue. He had zero desire to close his eyes to this. Despite only being able to see that once instance of this popping, Robert will mention it to the Execs at Samsung to see if they can confirm it and, if necessary, come up with a fix for it.

But it's important to note that using the Cal Day mode, even the one identified instance of popping was eliminated totally.

I'll tell you the truth, for me coming from an LED, I have to get re-acclimated to judder in plasmas which I find more distracting than the popping that i saw today. I know some don't like the blurring of LEDs with motion, but to me this is far more natural than judder in plasmas. But hey, I lived with it before in my Kuros & Fujitsus, I can live with it again. And no, I didn't notice judder any worse than the VT50 or other plasmas I've seen and lived with. smile.gif

Again, these were my observations and yours may differ. Just be aware that what you see in retailers are displays that are simply not adjusted anywhere near their capabilities.
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post #1098 of 12948 Old 04-04-2013, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Monsterx View Post

My buzzing is directional, I only hear it when straight on with the TV. I'll probably swap it out for another and see if I get the buzzing again.

and this has plagued Samsung's plasmas since the "b" series. it's at a certain frequency some hear and some can't. I hear it everytime i'm in front of a Samsung plasma. Some swear they have no buzz, so with you someone who can hear the audible buzzing frequency. please keep us informed if you have a successful swap, because I can go on your observance on whether or not there are truly buzz free sets. yes, I know all plasmas buzz to a degree, I concur, but the Samsungs are smack bullseye with my LOS while the Panasonics are more rear driven.

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post #1099 of 12948 Old 04-04-2013, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ptlurking View Post

I will head back over tomorrow when I have more time and play around with it.
Hopefully the issue is with the RGB vs HDMI settings.

And, hopefully they can locate the remote... Sheesh!

It's going to be the HDMI black level setting in Picture Options, low or normal. I believe low should be used with a limited 16-235 source and normal with full RGB
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post #1100 of 12948 Old 04-04-2013, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by greenland View Post


Why is displaying Ice Hockey such a problem? I looked at the Blackhawks V Detroit game on Sunday on a four year old Plasma with poor contrast numbers, and the Ice looked a cloudy grey like Ice does, and the Hawks road Jerseys looked White, as did their Helmets. Ice is not supposed to look a uniform white. Ice cubes are not white. I have attended NHL games in a several arenas, and the ice never looked white. It always looked a cloudy grey, with the Logos showing through from beneath it; and it also developed some micro facets from the skates, as each period progressed, after it had been renewed by the Zamboni equipment.

Displaying ice isn't a problem on the F8500s I saw. Watching a variety of games, ice varied depending on the game, depending on the camera angle and depending on the lighting. Yes, there were some scenes that the ice looked white. It can look white, no two ways about it. I would say if you've never seen a hockey game where ice looked white, that's a limitation of your display, not the source. Other times the ice looked more grayish. IOW the F8500's response was dynamic enough to render these different scenes...well, differently. That's the nature of video, that's the nature of camera angles, that's the nature of the variation from camera to camera in virtually any and all telecasts. I don't think there was anything unusual in how these scenes were handled. In fact, IMO, they were handled better than any plasma I've seen, simply because the scenes were allowed to go brighter and therefore the scene looked more realistic.

This was also brought home in the downhill skiing BD we watched. At times the snow was an almost "LED Brilliant" white at other times, in the shade, the snow was very obviously tinged blue...just as it should have been for anyone that's familiar with shooting scenes like that in sunlight and shade.

For me, this is one of the great assets of the F8500, being able to render these brilliant outdoor scenes with a brightness that's more life-like than other plasmas I've owned or seen.
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post #1101 of 12948 Old 04-04-2013, 02:00 PM
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Ken, really appreciate your thoughts/input on this display, and going to observe the "pops" at V.E. you are a great asset to this thread.smile.gif

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post #1102 of 12948 Old 04-04-2013, 02:01 PM
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Had some time with my fully calibrated set yesterday. The very first impression I had when I turned it on was one of slight disappointment. The PQ had lost just a bit of the punchiness it had right out of the box. I've had calibrated sets for the last five years or so, except for last year when I got the D7000. I had just never gotten around to calibrating it before it was replaced. For the last year I've been using an uncalibrated set using just Spears and Muncil as my calibrator. So going from that, then this set out of the box, to a perfectly calibrated set, I think most people would initially find the image a bit soft. Thankfully as I continued watching, I started noticing accurate whites, inky blacks, correct skin tones non buzzing vertical lines, no brightness pops for the first time in a year, basically all of the things you would expect from a well calibrated set. I turned the tv off at the end of the night without the slightest bit of buyers remorse. I absolutely love the PQ on this set. It's the best looking PQ I've ever owned and I couldn't be happier with it. I'm still waiting for Ken to send over my calibration report so I can share it (he did say he was immensely busy during this tour). Once he gets around to sending it over to me, I'll be sure to share it with the forum.

One thing I have to mention on the down side: my stand rocks and the more I look at it, the less comfortable I am with it. In order for it to be stable, I either have to lean the tv slightly back (not good for viewing angle) or lean it forward (not ideal for viewing angle and also it scares me that it could easily tip right over). There is no way for my tv to rest at a perfect 90 degree angle with the furniture it sits on. It's either resting at 105 degrees or 75 degrees relative to the furniture. It's almost as if they replaced left and right swivelability (is that a word?) with back and forth rockability (another made up word). I can't see how the delivery guys could have set the stand up incorrectly as I watched them do it. Also, I've seen a few other reports from owners on this thread of the same thing. I'm wondering if its a.) a defect in my stand that is pretty widespread. b.) a design flaw that is inherent in this model or c.) was the stand just put together incorrectly. I know some people also said that their stand didn't rock, but I think it's possible that they just didn't notice it since the tilt back or forth where it the tv rests isn't super noticable unless you walk up to the tv and actually try to rock it. Thoughts anyone?
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post #1103 of 12948 Old 04-04-2013, 02:02 PM
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ken, thank you very much for your time and efforts and detailed review. great info and good news imho! much appreciated smile.gif

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post #1104 of 12948 Old 04-04-2013, 02:03 PM
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You guys really need to read this post if you're concerned about IR. http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57480003-221/do-i-need-to-break-in-a-new-plasma-tv-morrisons-mailbag/ rolleyes.gif

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post #1105 of 12948 Old 04-04-2013, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

People have reported to see ABL less in the Panasonics, most likely due to the way they process the picture....As with any company you give up one problem for another, you end up deciding which are the ones you can live with\deal with......There are many factors involved and we have mixed reports of seeing it and not seeing it. Youll find a ton of people who have seen it across brands...Some people are more sensitive to it and may notice it more than others, while some may never see it at all.....Hopefully you can find a set that makes you happy and then stay off the forums so you dont start looking for problems that you didnt see to begin with wink.gif

To my eyes the ABL is much more obvious in the Panasonics (not sure about the 60s). Their full screen white is not at all pleasing to my eyes.

BTW, I forgot to mention in my summary of today's visit with Robert, a point he mentioned. There were several AVS members in the day after I was there last week. They all looked for the fluctuating brightness issues (pops) and none were able to find them. So at least we did find it today, however minor AND correctable it was.
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post #1106 of 12948 Old 04-04-2013, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by ljmart View Post

ken, thank you very much for your time and efforts and detailed review. great info and good news imho! much appreciated smile.gif

now you done it.....he's gloating from ear to ear...biggrin.gif

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post #1107 of 12948 Old 04-04-2013, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mightymouseusf View Post

Had some time with my fully calibrated set yesterday. The very first impression I had when I turned it on was one of slight disappointment. The PQ had lost just a bit of the punchiness it had right out of the box. I've had calibrated sets for the last five years or so, except for last year when I got the D7000. I had just never gotten around to calibrating it before it was replaced. For the last year I've been using an uncalibrated set using just Spears and Muncil as my calibrator. So going from that, then this set out of the box, to a perfectly calibrated set, I think most people would initially find the image a bit soft. Thankfully as I continued watching, I started noticing accurate whites, inky blacks, correct skin tones non buzzing vertical lines, no brightness pops for the first time in a year, basically all of the things you would expect from a well calibrated set. I turned the tv off at the end of the night without the slightest bit of buyers remorse. I absolutely love the PQ on this set. It's the best looking PQ I've ever owned and I couldn't be happier with it. I'm still waiting for Ken to send over my calibration report so I can share it (he did say he was immensely busy during this tour). Once he gets around to sending it over to me, I'll be sure to share it with the forum.

One thing I have to mention on the down side: my stand rocks and the more I look at it, the less comfortable I am with it. In order for it to be stable, I either have to lean the tv slightly back (not good for viewing angle) or lean it forward (not ideal for viewing angle and also it scares me that it could easily tip right over). There is no way for my tv to rest at a perfect 90 degree angle with the furniture it sits on. It's either resting at 105 degrees or 75 degrees relative to the furniture. It's almost as if they replaced left and right swivelability (is that a word?) with back and forth rockability (another made up word). I can't see how the delivery guys could have set the stand up incorrectly as I watched them do it. Also, I've seen a few other reports from owners on this thread of the same thing. I'm wondering if its a.) a defect in my stand that is pretty widespread. b.) a design flaw that is inherent in this model or c.) was the stand just put together incorrectly. I know some people also said that their stand didn't rock, but I think it's possible that they just didn't notice it since the tilt back or forth where it the tv rests isn't super noticable unless you walk up to the tv and actually try to rock it. Thoughts anyone?

"image a bit soft."

I certainly notice this w/ Panasonics, but not with Samsung's there vp is darn good for a display.

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post #1108 of 12948 Old 04-04-2013, 02:13 PM
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Ken Thank you for checking this issue..
Wish you went tomorrow morning though, would have been fun watching you guys testing the f8500s smile.gif
Although honestly hockey isn't watched much in my house, I just wanted whiter whites and from all reported accounts the F8500 scored a goal on that one cool.gif
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post #1109 of 12948 Old 04-04-2013, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by remush View Post

It's going to be the HDMI black level setting in Picture Options, low or normal. I believe low should be used with a limited 16-235 source and normal with full RGB

Will check that out and report back.
Fingers crossed that it fixes the issue!

Thanks.
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post #1110 of 12948 Old 04-04-2013, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by airgas1998 View Post

Ken, really appreciate your thoughts/input on this display, and going to observe the "pops" at V.E. you are a great asset to this thread.smile.gif

Thanks airgas. My intentions were not all 'noble', they were partly selfish too as this is my #1 contender for my next display. Nothing I saw today would change that.
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