Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 67 - AVS Forum
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post #1981 of 12398 Old 04-10-2013, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Now that you have seen it and know what to look for you will never be able to unsee it wink.gif muhahahahahahahahaha biggrin.gif

A little worrisome for sure, but I am going to wait to see what comes of this wink.gif

No, I've always known what it looks like since Robert and I spent those 2 hours and saw it on the hockey game. It was unmistakeable, but it was just that one instance. Yesterday it was exactly the same appearance, a 2-step brightening or dimming.

So it's not that I didn't know what to look for, it's just that with that movie and whatever settings it had, it was pretty bad.
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post #1982 of 12398 Old 04-10-2013, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post


it seems like people get really worried or upset each time some reports seeing them, while I understand why especially due to the history....it seem people ignore the members who dont see it at all.....

Yeah, I've noticed that too. It's almost as if those that don't see it are dismissed because they have no idea what to look for. That YouTube clip is a great educational tool for seeing exactly what it looks like.
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post #1983 of 12398 Old 04-10-2013, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by JMUdukes07 View Post

Yeah, in the grand scheme of things I realize it's a pretty trivial problem. However, you pay a premium to get a top-end display and then you get this ridiculously annoying problem - the worst part being the fact that a) they provide a "fix" that makes the picture almost perfect but apparently stops working after x number of hours and b) having to take off countless hours from work to have technicians diagnose and then return to repair the unit. I've much preferred the picture on the Samsung plasmas the past few years and the Panasonics really worry me with the reports of fuzzier pictures and IR.

Before this post gets confused with others, let's be clear, JMUdukes is not talking about the F8500.
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post #1984 of 12398 Old 04-10-2013, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by surfmlb View Post

It would be nice to know or If you can find out exactly what movie it is so we can test same said movie on our sets to see If it does the same things. Maybe you can stop in again and get the name of it and maybe do more testing while there wink.gif

Not sure if I'll have time in the short run, as we're in the middle of a move. It looked like a movie that would make you prefer water boarding to having to sit through it. biggrin.gif
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post #1985 of 12398 Old 04-10-2013, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

If anyone with ABL pops is brave enough to enter the service menu and activate CAL night and day and test I can PM where to go and what to do.

I'd take no responsibility if you go wrong though.

Remember, it's not simply activating Cal Day that eliminated the pops in the Kevin Miller calibrated 64' F8500, it was activating that mode and calibrating it.

No one should assume that merely activating a Cal mode is actually a calibration. All it does is open a set of values that was previously unavailable for altering.
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post #1986 of 12398 Old 04-10-2013, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Two calibrators have already reported annoying grayscale behavior on the ST60 which mimics the VT30. So maybe Samsung with fluctuating brightness and Panasonic are going back to 2011 in some ways. lol

Maybe we should all take up painting or photography? biggrin.gif

As we've often said, ALL these displays have one issue or another.
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post #1987 of 12398 Old 04-10-2013, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Maybe we should all take up painting or photography? biggrin.gif

Then you get into issues with the type and quality of brushes and camera models/types!

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post #1988 of 12398 Old 04-10-2013, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post

I would be curious to hear the explanation they gave. Panasonic has often marketed their shadow detail as best-in-class, but that has historically been because gamma on the low end is typically incorrect even post-calibration and this results in elevated shadow detail. A fully-calibrated 9G should boast exactly the right amount of shadow detail - not too little, and not too much. Without knowing how both displays were adjusted, I don't really see much benefit in a side-to-side evaluation.

The reason, as I recall, that the ZT60 has more shadow detail than the Kuro is that it takes less of an input signal to activate the phosphors. So with the same minimal stimulus, the Kuro's pixels remain near black and the ZT60 begins to respond. It takes another bump up in stimulus for the Kuro to begin responding. This made perfect sense to me.

Besides, how do you know what the 'right amount of detail' is, if it never shows up but is there? I loved the Kuro, but it really wasn't and isn't perfect. I know some out there like to believe it (not saying you), but it simply isn't the case.

As to how linear or non-linear the gamma is on the ZT60, we don't have any data on that yet. So let's put that in the 'to be determined' category.
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post #1989 of 12398 Old 04-10-2013, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Thelt2000x View Post

Hmm.... Interesting. That was the game I was watching last night. And fluctuations all over the place. If you could, post your settings or PM me them. I would love to try them. I am not really a settings guy lol. Just choose a mode and run with it. BTW what size tv do you have?

This is the kind of feedback we need. One person with exactly the same source material sees the popping and the other doesn't. What's different? Display size? Settings? Source provider (cable, Directv etc.). I can see a myriad of possibilities, but it's a start. smile.gif
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post #1990 of 12398 Old 04-10-2013, 10:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Remember, it's not simply activating Cal Day that eliminated the pops in the Kevin Miller calibrated 64' F8500, it was activating that mode and calibrating it.

No one should assume that merely activating a Cal mode is actually a calibration. All it does is open a set of values that was previously unavailable for altering.

Of course, but looking at the calibration settings, aside from the activation of cal-day and night, everything else is done from the regular settings menu.
This can all be emulated by others.
He stated he didn't know what other functions run (or do not run) with cal-day and night enabled but it appeared to stop the pops from happening.
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post #1991 of 12398 Old 04-10-2013, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

I think they switched sets out or fudged with it wink.gif they want you to spend that extra money on the ZT biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

J/k of course....

personally with what I say at Magnolia (light fluctuations, distortion making it look like HEAVY IR, ect, ect) where all related to the source....I know this probably isnt the situation, but I wonder what changed besides the content.....

Do you remember the movie?

Never saw the movie before and would never want to see it again. Looked really really bad from both a PQ and content standpoint. I don't know the movie's title.

But remember, I re-cued the scene a few times and the popping was always in precisely the same place. One thing that I think is good, ironically, is that when you find an instance of popping, it's 100% repeatable...at least in the instances I've seen it. Repeatability, I think, can lead to a quicker fix. Intermittent issues are so often almost hopeless.
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post #1992 of 12398 Old 04-10-2013, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Then you get into issues with the type and quality of brushes and camera models/types!

Yeah, shedding brushes, paint popping...it could be a nightmare Dave! biggrin.gif
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post #1993 of 12398 Old 04-10-2013, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

Of course, but looking at the calibration settings, aside from the activation of cal-day and night, everything else is done from the regular settings menu.
This can all be emulated by others.
He stated he didn't know what other functions run (or do not run) with cal-day and night enabled but it appeared to stop the pops from happening.

True, at least in that case.
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post #1994 of 12398 Old 04-10-2013, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

So far reports of "pops" have gone back and forth.....there are sets that experience it more than not it seems and others who dont see it, of course if I didnt see it, I am not going to go looking for it wink.gif

it seems like people get really worried or upset each time some reports seeing them, while I understand why especially due to the history....it seem people ignore the members who dont see it at all.....

I for one am not ignoring people who don't see it.

But, I have a E series with bad popping and I think it is more distracting than anything else. It really makes me think about the tv rather than what I'm watching. Gets to be whenever picture is bright, I'm cringing a bit knowing it's coming. So I know if the f8500 has it, I will see it.

I was putting a lot of hope on this one because I like the clearer and less noisy look of Samsung plasmas. LCD like brightness and clarity without the LCD problems sound good. Hope they fix this soon.
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post #1995 of 12398 Old 04-10-2013, 10:48 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

True, at least in that case.

Ken or anyone, would you know how to decipher the white balance settings mentioned in the Kevin Miller pdfs?
I would like to test the settings but require an assist:

Low Red: 22
Low Green: 25
Low Blue: 22
High Red: 29/3=*4,4=*4,5=*4,6=*8,7=*6,9=*10,10=*3
High Green: 25/3=*2,7=*2
High Blue: 25/3=+3,4=+3,5=+8,6=+1,7=+7,9=+8

I assume the 'low' values apply to Offsets (?)
Not sure about the high values or how to apply them.
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post #1996 of 12398 Old 04-10-2013, 10:51 AM
 
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*Also, I assume the input source is RGB 4:4:4 ?
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post #1997 of 12398 Old 04-10-2013, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by barth2k View Post

I for one am not ignoring people who don't see it.

But, I have a E series with bad popping and I think it is more distracting than anything else. It really makes me think about the tv rather than what I'm watching. Gets to be whenever picture is bright, I'm cringing a bit knowing it's coming. So I know if the f8500 has it, I will see it.

I was putting a lot of hope on this one because I like the clearer and less noisy look of Samsung plasmas. LCD like brightness and clarity without the LCD problems sound good. Hope they fix this soon.

Barth, can you check one out yet?
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post #1998 of 12398 Old 04-10-2013, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

The reason, as I recall, that the ZT60 has more shadow detail than the Kuro is that it takes less of an input signal to activate the phosphors. So with the same minimal stimulus, the Kuro's pixels remain near black and the ZT60 begins to respond. It takes another bump up in stimulus for the Kuro to begin responding. This made perfect sense to me.

Besides, how do you know what the 'right amount of detail' is, if it never shows up but is there? I loved the Kuro, but it really wasn't and isn't perfect. I know some out there like to believe it (not saying you), but it simply isn't the case.

As to how linear or non-linear the gamma is on the ZT60, we don't have any data on that yet. So let's put that in the 'to be determined' category.

You will know weather you have the "right" amount of detail primarily by measuring gamma. There is almost always detail within dark areas of the screen that you are not supposed to see per the filmmakers/engineers who mastered whatever you are watching. There is a point somewhere between crushing blacks and dialing in too much shadow detail that is accurate and correct to the source. You can only arrive at this point by calibrating and measuring. Marketing spin doesn't mean much to me unless there is hard data to back it up. How many goofy claims have we seen because of things like dynamic contrast, or subfield drives, or yellow sub-pixels, etc etc...?

It is very easy to crush blacks on the Kuros, especially if you are working outside of the ISFccc modes, but it is certainly possible not to.
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post #1999 of 12398 Old 04-10-2013, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

Ken or anyone, would you know how to decipher the white balance settings mentioned in the Kevin Miller pdfs?
I would like to test the settings but require an assist:

Low Red: 22
Low Green: 25
Low Blue: 22
High Red: 29/3=*4,4=*4,5=*4,6=*8,7=*6,9=*10,10=*3
High Green: 25/3=*2,7=*2
High Blue: 25/3=+3,4=+3,5=+8,6=+1,7=+7,9=+8

I assume the 'low' values apply to Offsets (?)
Not sure about the high values or how to apply them.

I don't recall the nomenclature in the Samsung. But the 'lows' are usually the 'cuts' and the 'highs' the 'gains'. As for his string of #s after, say, 'high red', 'high green' etc., I'm assuming that's the 10 point WB. You'd have to hit each of the 10 point WB controls and then make the necessary adjustments. So for example, I'm guessing in the High Red, the last value '10=3' means at the 10th point of the 10 point WB, red is adjusted to a value of 3. At least that's what it looks like to me, but I've never adjusted a Sammy.
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post #2000 of 12398 Old 04-10-2013, 11:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

Ken or anyone, would you know how to decipher the white balance settings mentioned in the Kevin Miller pdfs?
I would like to test the settings but require an assist:

Low Red: 22
Low Green: 25
Low Blue: 22
High Red: 29/3=*4,4=*4,5=*4,6=*8,7=*6,9=*10,10=*3
High Green: 25/3=*2,7=*2
High Blue: 25/3=+3,4=+3,5=+8,6=+1,7=+7,9=+8

I assume the 'low' values apply to Offsets (?)
Not sure about the high values or how to apply them.

NVM worked it out wink.gif
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post #2001 of 12398 Old 04-10-2013, 11:04 AM
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Was watching Brave in 3D and noticed brightness pops on scenes inside the castle (Chapter 4) where a lot of rock wall is present. A scene would change and the brightness would tick up and then do it again on the next cut. Not awful but noticeable. Watched the same scenes in 2D and no fluctuations whatsoever.

As it stands I have only seen brightness fluctuations when watching 3D and none in 2D. Will check Prometheus in 2D when I can. Oddly enough these are not particularly bright scenes. As I've mentioned before Frozen Planet with massive expanses of white with some dark objects doesn't exhibit any pops at all under scrutiny. This 3D brightness fluctuation could also be entirely unrelated to pops and instead something to do with the active 3D system. Never noticed it on my LCD though.

Anyone have Brave or Prometheus in 3D that could corroborate my findings?

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post #2002 of 12398 Old 04-10-2013, 11:08 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I don't recall the nomenclature in the Samsung. But the 'lows' are usually the 'cuts' and the 'highs' the 'gains'. As for his string of #s after, say, 'high red', 'high green' etc., I'm assuming that's the 10 point WB. You'd have to hit each of the 10 point WB controls and then make the necessary adjustments. So for example, I'm guessing in the High Red, the last value '10=3' means at the 10th point of the 10 point WB, red is adjusted to a value of 3. At least that's what it looks like to me, but I've never adjusted a Sammy.

Thank you yep got it smile.gif
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post #2003 of 12398 Old 04-10-2013, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post

You will know weather you have the "right" amount of detail primarily by measuring gamma. There is almost always detail within dark areas of the screen that you are not supposed to see per the filmmakers/engineers who mastered whatever you are watching. There is a point somewhere between crushing blacks and dialing in too much shadow detail that is accurate and correct to the source. You can only arrive at this point by calibrating and measuring. Marketing spin doesn't mean much to me unless there is hard data to back it up. How many goofy claims have we seen because of things like dynamic contrast, or subfield drives, or yellow sub-pixels, etc etc...?

It is very easy to crush blacks on the Kuros, especially if you are working outside of the ISFccc modes, but it is certainly possible not to.

I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure that properly explains all of what we saw last night. They claimed the Kuro was calibrated just as was the ZT. Do I buy it? Probably not, but based more on color than shadow detail. I think the detail that was revealed at the lowest IRE settings of the ZT was meant to be seen. The Kuro didn't show it either because it may have been improperly adjusted (as I though the color was) or because it simply couldn't respond to that low an input signal. I did find the technical explanation very believable. I can certainly recognize 'hype' and differentiate that from fact.

I've never approached the Kuro with the thought that anything that another display shows or does differently is a classic case that the other display is wrong. IOW, I know the Kuro was not perfect and improvements can and have been made. The motion handling, although 60p, showed an immensely different ability to clearly depict the motion. There was really no comparison. The reds were clearly 'redder' with less orange, even when conforming to Rec709 (not the DCI color space). As I said, despite the digitaltrends review, I thought the Kuro still bested, although just marginally, the ZT's black levels. I also felt the ZT was sharper than the Kuro as I've found the F8500 to be sharper than the Kuro.

I'm being objective and yes, this is just MO. I saw the flaws in the A/B last night and said so, but I will give credit where credit is due. I have no axe to grind, no manufacturer to protect and no display that I own that am afraid is being 'outclassed'. I'm after the best PQ, pure and simple. smile.gif
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post #2004 of 12398 Old 04-10-2013, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Remember, it's not simply activating Cal Day that eliminated the pops in the Kevin Miller calibrated 64' F8500, it was activating that mode and calibrating it.

No one should assume that merely activating a Cal mode is actually a calibration. All it does is open a set of values that was previously unavailable for altering.

Like I said earlier, calibrating the displays results in lower overall brightness which means that the amount of time (if any) that the ABL kicks in is also limited. But like Ph8te pointed out, its not really a good mitigating factor for the majority in choosing the display since 'karen down the avenue' is not going to get it calibrated biggrin.gif
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post #2005 of 12398 Old 04-10-2013, 11:14 AM
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Since a lot of folks here are wondering how the F8500 will stack up against the new Panasonics, I think it's ok to post a link to a new, very in-depth an thorough review of the Panasonic VT60:

http://www.avforums.com/reviews/Panasonic-VT65-VT60-TX-P55VT65B-P50VT65B-P65VT65B-3D-Plasma-TV_507/Review.html

Verdict: They call it the new reference (if the VT60 is the new reference, what will the ZT60 be?). In all fairness, they haven't reviewed the F8500 yet. It's an interesting read, nevertheless.
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post #2006 of 12398 Old 04-10-2013, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
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post #2007 of 12398 Old 04-10-2013, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funkahdafi View Post

Since a lot of folks here are wondering how the F8500 will stack up against the new Panasonics, I think it's ok to post a link to a new, very in-depth an thorough review of the Panasonic VT60:

http://www.avforums.com/reviews/Panasonic-VT65-VT60-TX-P55VT65B-P50VT65B-P65VT65B-3D-Plasma-TV_507/Review.html

Verdict: They call it the new reference (if the VT60 is the new reference, what will the ZT60 be?). In all fairness, they haven't reviewed the F8500 yet. It's an interesting read, nevertheless.

To be clear this isnt the US version its the EU V65....There may not be any differences as farr as PQ goes, but until the NA VT60 is actually tested we wont know......
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post #2008 of 12398 Old 04-10-2013, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

Like I said earlier, calibrating the displays results in lower overall brightness which means that the amount of time (if any) that the ABL kicks in is also limited. But like Ph8te pointed out, its not really a good mitigating factor for the majority in choosing the display since 'karen down the avenue' is not going to get it calibrated biggrin.gif

It's funny, I always have Kevin Miller adjust my display somewhat brighter than he'd like and also a bit sharper than he'd like. My attitude on sharpness is, if I don't see an anomaly in programming content, but just a trace of ringing or edge enhancement on a test pattern, I'll go with the slightly raised sharpness. I just like that look.

So even a calibrated display can be calibrated somewhat brighter if that's what you like.
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post #2009 of 12398 Old 04-10-2013, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure that properly explains all of what we saw last night. They claimed the Kuro was calibrated just as was the ZT. Do I buy it? Probably not, but based more on color than shadow detail. I think the detail that was revealed at the lowest IRE settings of the ZT was meant to be seen. The Kuro didn't show it either because it may have been improperly adjusted (as I though the color was) or because it simply couldn't respond to that low an input signal. I did find the technical explanation very believable. I can certainly recognize 'hype' and differentiate that from fact.

I've never approached the Kuro with the thought that anything that another display shows or does differently is a classic case that the other display is wrong. IOW, I know the Kuro was not perfect and improvements can and have been made. The motion handling, although 60p, showed an immensely different ability to clearly depict the motion. There was really no comparison. The reds were clearly 'redder' with less orange, even when conforming to Rec709 (not the DCI color space). As I said, despite the digitaltrends review, I thought the Kuro still bested, although just marginally, the ZT's black levels. I also felt the ZT was sharper than the Kuro as I've found the F8500 to be sharper than the Kuro.

I'm being objective and yes, this is just MO. I saw the flaws in the A/B last night and said so, but I will give credit where credit is due. I have no axe to grind, no manufacturer to protect and no display that I own that am afraid is being 'outclassed'. I'm after the best PQ, pure and simple. smile.gif

The bigger question is why would the Kuro be calibrated wrong? Is it accidentally or purposely? I would wager the latter to really make ZT60 look superior or more superior. Which leads me to disregard what you saw last night as Panasonic trying to bs us all. I think this is why D-Nice at HDJ is thinking about bringing a 141FD to compare. That's my opinion.
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

What a drag they got them first frown.gif

They also got the GT series wink.gif but the differences between the ST GT and VT seem to be "small" in the bigger sense of things (at least from my readings of the reviews).......If anything it may push people to buy the ST even more becasue of the bang for the buck factor...
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