Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 70 - AVS Forum
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post #2071 of 12514 Old 04-10-2013, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
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^^^ Both meters are accurate in that range, could be as simple as unit variation for two different reading from two different displays.
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Originally Posted by JMUdukes07 View Post

From Chad's review it sounds like the black optimizer results in a less stable image - this means ill most likely leave this setting off.
That is correct. Blacks start to fluctuate with the Black Optimizer set to on...

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post #2072 of 12514 Old 04-10-2013, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

The black tone setting (and dynamic contrast) is not for people who understand display calibration. The black optimizer setting is something I have not seen in a display before, it actually changes the way the panel is driven instead of a video processing function. It is unique and I believe it was added in response to complaints of floating black levels.

Agreed, no need to discuss black tone and dynamic contrast as that's been covered exhaustively in the past and is understood. Any ideas how it changes the panel behavior and what the possible scenarios that make the image unstable are?
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post #2073 of 12514 Old 04-10-2013, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

The black tone setting (and dynamic contrast) is not for people who understand display calibration. The black optimizer setting is something I have not seen in a display before, it actually changes the way the panel is driven instead of a video processing function. It is unique and I believe it was added in response to complaints of floating black levels.


When on, the optimizer appears to me to be similar to the D series with fbr fix applied. With it off and the resulting higher mll it seems to be a method for reducing the fluctuations by raising the black level to mask the fluctuations.


I think that we are saying the same thing.


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post #2074 of 12514 Old 04-10-2013, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airgas1998 View Post

so what's your opinion on Chad's .0023#'s or something around that? whose meter's do you trust more accurately? am pretty sure they both can measure around .0001. correct?

Kevins is more accurate for lower black level readings (from what I have seen posted).......DNice also measured the same as Kevin when he went to VE......who should you trust more? your eyes wink.gif

I am sure zoyd\Larry would be able to give a better answer on accuracy however...
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post #2075 of 12514 Old 04-10-2013, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

When on, the optimizer appears to me to be similar to the D series with fbr fix applied. With it off and the resulting higher mll it seems to be a method for reducing the fluctuations by raising the black level to mask the fluctuations.


I think that we are saying the same thing.


Larry

I wouldn't say mask the fluctuations. I voiced my hypothesis earlier in the thread but it's moving so fast you might have missed it. I believe the D (and E series) have the equivalent of black optimizer ON always. Which creates a two level mll based on average scene luminance. The two levels are required to avoid misfires at higher APL, which was a panel driving design choice made by Samsung (Panasonic by contrast has 1 mll). Again, from what I'm reading as I have no direct measurements, the F series both lowered the overall mll AND allows you to turn OFF the two-step process giving you one mll which is approximately at the lower of the two steps on the E series.

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post #2076 of 12514 Old 04-10-2013, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

I wouldn't say mask the fluctuations. I voiced my hypothesis earlier in the thread but it's moving so fast you might have missed it. I believe the D (and E series) have the equivalent of black optimizer ON always. Which creates a two level mll based on average scene luminance. The two levels are required to avoid misfires at higher APL, which was a panel driving design choice made by Samsung (Panasonic by contrast has 1 mll). Again, from what I'm reading as I have no direct measurements, the F series both lowered the overall mll AND allows you to turn OFF the two-step process giving you one mll which is approximately at the lower of the two steps on the E series.


Yeah, I missed your earlier post.

My choice of words "by raising the black level to mask the fluctuations" was unfortunate. A better phrasing would have been "causing a higher perceptible black level which in turn masks the fluctuations." But yes, when the optimizer is on, the behavior seems the same as that of the D and E series.

I'm not sure I follow you when you say "AND allows you to turn OFF the two-step process giving you one mll which is approximately at the lower of the two steps on the E series." I read the posts and calibration reports as saying with the optimizer on there is an overall low mll with the necessary-by-design fluctuations and with it off there is a higher mill (the higher of the two steps).

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post #2077 of 12514 Old 04-10-2013, 03:38 PM
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Why does MJC seem to introduce some type of studdering? But if it's off I see what I believe to be judder....
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post #2078 of 12514 Old 04-10-2013, 03:38 PM
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I wanted to point out that the higher of the two steps on the F-series appears to be roughly the same as the lower of the two steps on the E-series, indicating an overall mll drop (probably due to more efficient phosphors).

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post #2079 of 12514 Old 04-10-2013, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thelt2000x View Post

Why does MJC seem to introduce some type of studdering? But if it's off I see what I believe to be judder....

What kind of source are you viewing?

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post #2080 of 12514 Old 04-10-2013, 03:49 PM
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What kind of source are you viewing?

My daughter is watching bubble guppies on directv and when they move it's blurry in standard and just weird with it off
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post #2081 of 12514 Old 04-10-2013, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

I wanted to point out that the higher of the two steps on the F-series appears to be roughly the same as the lower of the two steps on the E-series, indicating an overall mll drop (probably due to more efficient phosphors).


Okay but I see it differently. My 64D7000 has a full screen black reading that is the lowest the mll gets. The fluctuations can raise that by a factor of two or, much more rarely, by a factor of three. Speculating of course, I equate the higher reading of the D series qualitatively with the higher one on the F series with its optimizer off.

Lets let this go until we get some more definitive data.


BTW, I am in the market for a new set this year. One major factor in my choice is the cost/performance of a high end model or a mid price one with a 3D LUT processor. Your eeColor/Argyle thread has been fascinating to follow.

Larry
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post #2082 of 12514 Old 04-10-2013, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

I wanted to point out that the higher of the two steps on the F-series appears to be roughly the same as the lower of the two steps on the E-series, indicating an overall mll drop (probably due to more efficient phosphors).

Zoyd,

Do you believe Samsung can issue a firmware update to correct this matter on the F8500?

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post #2083 of 12514 Old 04-10-2013, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

Letting us turn the black optimiser off beg's the question why? They must know that their tv's get evaluated the way we evaluate them.

That's the point, if I'm understanding you. Why would any reviewer insist on testing a display where either local dimming or another feature, Black Optimizer, is so important in achieving the best black levels? I saw it done with the Sony 929, the Sony 950 and the Sharp Elite. Now granted, a number of reviews, especially with the Elite, did use the local dimming. But do they really think that a buyer would spend say $5,000 on the 950 and then never engage local dimming.

We know that many of these panels don't have good black levels without help. But who cares what 'assistance' the manufacturer gave the panel to achieve excellent black levels, as long as it didn't create significant side-effects.
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post #2084 of 12514 Old 04-10-2013, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Zoyd,

Do you believe Samsung can issue a firmware update to correct this matter on the F8500?

no, it's inherent in the panel drive design that Samsung chose.



@Larry: yes, the ST60 with an eeColor box might just do the trick. wink.gif

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post #2085 of 12514 Old 04-10-2013, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airgas1998 View Post

so what's your opinion on Chad's .0023#'s or something around that? whose meter's do you trust more accurately? am pretty sure they both can measure around .0001. correct?

The meter that Kevin and D-Nice use are known to be more accurate in the lowest MLL region. So you have to trust their readings more. Both Kevin and D-Nice came up with virtually identical readings.
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post #2086 of 12514 Old 04-10-2013, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

^^^ Both meters are accurate in that range, could be as simple as unit variation for two different reading from two different displays.

That's incorrect. From everything I've heard, the meter that D-Nice and Kevin Miller use are more accurate in the lowest MLLs.
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post #2087 of 12514 Old 04-10-2013, 04:09 PM
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Is anybody else's f8500 not letting the pixel shift option to be turned? It is saying that the function is not available.
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post #2088 of 12514 Old 04-10-2013, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

no, it's inherent in the panel drive design that Samsung chose.



@Larry: yes, the ST60 with an eeColor box might just do the trick. wink.gif

I guess that it wasn't hard to figure that the ST60/eeColor is one option that I am looking at. smile.gif The F5500/eeColor probably will be another.

Larry
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post #2089 of 12514 Old 04-10-2013, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

That's the point, if I'm understanding you. Why would any reviewer insist on testing a display where either local dimming or another feature, Black Optimizer, is so important in achieving the best black levels? I saw it done with the Sony 929, the Sony 950 and the Sharp Elite. Now granted, a number of reviews, especially with the Elite, did use the local dimming. But do they really think that a buyer would spend say $5,000 on the 950 and then never engage local dimming.

We know that many of these panels don't have good black levels without help. But who cares what 'assistance' the manufacturer gave the panel to achieve excellent black levels, as long as it didn't create significant side-effects.

Ken, you're understanding me. If there's no side effect, it should be included in the review and just be built in. For instance, when I was comparing the Hx950 some reviews included it since the blooming was more of an LCD side effect in general imo and to compare it on its 1700:1 native (or roundabouts) would be ludicrous. However on the other side of that ludicrous line, I wouldn't include it on the edge lit ones like the ES series since we all know their 'dimming' has a good amount of side effects that can really affect enjoyment. If it affects detail or ansi contrast negatively I would exclude it as well. Of course that's just me smile.gif
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post #2090 of 12514 Old 04-10-2013, 04:20 PM
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How far away should you watch a 64 inch plasma? I had a 65 inch dlp and didn't really have any issues. I think a part of my problem is I am sitting too close to the TV. I am probably about 10 feet away however in my kitchen I am about 16-18 feet away and it looks different.... Better I think..... Any thoughts?
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post #2091 of 12514 Old 04-10-2013, 04:22 PM
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I hear ya Mo. Well among most reviewers, plasma is King and there's really no need to take other techs seriously. I had to laugh to myself last night. Here everyone was oohing & ahing over the black levels of the ZT60 and Kuro, and neither compared to my Elite at home. I mean the difference wasn't huge, but on a fully black screen, the Elite is noticeably darker in a very dark room.

Of course the Elite is a locally dimmed LED and locally dimmed LEDs 'need not apply'. It just always strikes me funny.
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post #2092 of 12514 Old 04-10-2013, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Thelt2000x View Post

I'm thinking a hockey/ABL/pops party tonight on the NBC sports network @ 730pm EST. Devils v Bruins. I'm reaching out to all owners. If you have time check the game out. After, I say everyone state the size of their tv, what settings they were using, source (cable, directv, ect) and the level of fluctuations (couldn't watch, bad, not bad, very little, what's ABL??) Something along those lines. I am interested if there are any type of trends. Anyone in?

I'm in.... 51f8500 here with over 100 hours on it..
I also have Kevin's cal settings dialed in although had to be noted they were for/from 64F8500 and to be honest doesn't look great on my 51F8500 but might shed some light..
Any suggestions on what had been found works in reducing of eliminating pops?
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post #2093 of 12514 Old 04-10-2013, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I hear ya Mo. Well among most reviewers, plasma is King and there's really no need to take other techs seriously. I had to laugh to myself last night. Here everyone was oohing & ahing over the black levels of the ZT60 and Kuro, and neither compared to my Elite at home. I mean the difference wasn't huge, but on a fully black screen, the Elite is noticeably darker in a very dark room.

Of course the Elite is a locally dimmed LED and locally dimmed LEDs 'need not apply'. It just always strikes me funny.

Although I agree and share a lot of the same logic, with my own odyssey that started with me avoiding plasma as much as possible, I can appreciate why plasma's win out after learning a handful of things the hardway. To be fair it is a lot further along in its tecnological life cycle so has an advantage in that regard over a more infant technology with higher potential.

With the Elite specifically I remember ruling it out on price alone. As I was saying to someone earlier, I would rather spend just over 2k for a quality 65 inch plasma, abuse it, and if it does 'break' apply the difference to the other tech out there after its matured a bit.
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post #2094 of 12514 Old 04-10-2013, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I hear ya Mo. Well among most reviewers, plasma is King and there's really no need to take other techs seriously. I had to laugh to myself last night. Here everyone was oohing & ahing over the black levels of the ZT60 and Kuro, and neither compared to my Elite at home. I mean the difference wasn't huge, but on a fully black screen, the Elite is noticeably darker in a very dark room.

Of course the Elite is a locally dimmed LED and locally dimmed LEDs 'need not apply'. It just always strikes me funny.

maybe because the fact that it can turn off all the lights on an all black screen isn't that impressive? even edge lit LEDs can pull off that trick.

I'm sure the elite has great blacks, but you're kind of special pleading there.
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post #2095 of 12514 Old 04-10-2013, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinger View Post

I'm in.... 51f8500 here with over 100 hours on it..
I also have Kevin's cal settings dialed in although had to be noted they were for/from 64F8500 and to be honest doesn't look great on my 51F8500 but might shed some light..
Any suggestions on what had been found works in reducing of eliminating pops?

I'm watching the hockey game. 64 inch directv movie mode. Brightness fluctuations all over the place. I never notice it dim.... Just get brighter... Is that normal??
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post #2096 of 12514 Old 04-10-2013, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by barth2k View Post

maybe because the fact that it can turn off all the lights on an all black screen isn't that impressive? even edge lit LEDs can pull off that trick.

I'm sure the elite has great blacks, but you're kind of special pleading there.

actually the elite remains at a very low glow of about .0004 mll;)

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post #2097 of 12514 Old 04-10-2013, 05:20 PM
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I didnt even see your post in here that linked to it wink.gif There was another created today as well. Ive reported it so hopefully we can get the two merged into 1 thread......

Cheers, eh.

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Cheers, eh.

I blame Ken, this thread moves way too fast biggrin.gif
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post #2099 of 12514 Old 04-10-2013, 05:34 PM
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Well... I'm glad they are bringing me another tv. I can't go 10-20 sec without brightness fluctuation when watching hockey. I have tried many many settings. I promise you it is not strobes or camera flashes. It goes up and down in brightness in "increments"

Update: cell light 0 = no fluctuations in for me
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post #2100 of 12514 Old 04-10-2013, 05:56 PM
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I'm watching the hockey game. 64 inch directv movie mode. Brightness fluctuations all over the place. I never notice it dim.... Just get brighter... Is that normal??

What your cell at?

Try this adjustment and see if it helps any

cell 20
brightness 30 (or turn down contrast 95 down to 75 instead)
gamma -2
warm-1

I saw less with these things lowered. (I also lowered color 50 to 45)(colors are strong on this one)

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