Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 73 - AVS Forum
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post #2161 of 12346 Old 04-11-2013, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

^^^

Does your wife really say "WTF"? My kind of girl.

Yes, she does lol
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post #2162 of 12346 Old 04-11-2013, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Robinson ------ View Post



Larry & Ph8te,
I notice that Miller has contrast & brightness consistently the same in both day-cal & movie modes, but has the cell different at 16 & 20. He stats in his review that he gets 40 FL for movie & 66 FL for day. So would you get the FL around the sweet-spot of 30/32 FL by having the cell at 14or15? Is that close...

day cell 20, contrast 95, brightness 46 = 66FL
movie cell 16, contrast 95, brightness 47 = 40FL
--- cell 14, contrast 95, brightness 47 = 30FL?

If I were to put cell at 14or15, would that give this 30FL peak output. I too have a moviethreatre environment, so that 30 FL sounds better for us.
Thanks, eh.

Just want to mention I found keeping the cell light at 14 is the best overall level. Keeping the cell light at 14 provides a very nice, consistent picture, with little fluctuation. You still get an occasional pop...I've learned there is nothing you can do to stop it completely. I've had this set (64") for a few weeks now and tried everything suggested in this forum. Eventually, you have to settle on settings you can live with on a daily basis and keeping the cell light at 14 has become a standard for me.

I've read the posts that say, in theory, that cell light 20 should be the best, but in practice, that's just not the case. I've found that no matter what the other settings are, having the cell light at 20 produces more fluctuation and a less consistent (normal/natural) picture when switching channels or sources. So, if you are not one that likes to change setting all the time...choice number 3 from the above is the best way to go.
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post #2163 of 12346 Old 04-11-2013, 07:56 AM
 
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I LOVE mine. WAF has exploded. Loving her soaps even more smile.gif

Haven't seen one pop and I can tell you I have been looking.

Sorry to hear you are not having the luck.
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post #2164 of 12346 Old 04-11-2013, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

I LOVE mine. WAF has exploded. Loving her soaps even more smile.gif

Haven't seen one pop and I can tell you I have been looking.

Sorry to hear you are not having the luck.

What size tv?
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post #2165 of 12346 Old 04-11-2013, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

I LOVE mine. WAF has exploded. Loving her soaps even more smile.gif

Haven't seen one pop and I can tell you I have been looking.

Sorry to hear you are not having the luck.

In the end the WAF just seals the deal wink.gif
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post #2166 of 12346 Old 04-11-2013, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I would agree. It doesn't seem as if it would be too difficult (without knowing all the intricacies) a job to refine that algorithm. They have such a great panel here and the popping certainly seems to be detracting from the enjoyment of many owners.

It depends on where the decision to limit the current is made and implemented. From what I've read the algorithm is activated when the current load exceeds 10% of maximum, this is probably done in hardware and not related to the actual problem but just a tripwire to activate the control circuit. Samsung is certainly aware of the potential for the behavior that is being discussed, this is a quote from one of their patents for their APC(automatic power control) circuit:
Quote:
Referring to FIG. 3, the brightness is steeply changed by abruptly reducing the number of sustain pulses in the desired brightness in the case of the fast APC. A person can sense this abrupt brightness change, which looks like a screen flashing phenomenon.

Changing this circuit may not be trivial and would certainly be expensive to properly test and distribute via new logic boards.
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post #2167 of 12346 Old 04-11-2013, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

It depends on where the decision to limit the current is made and implemented. From what I've read the algorithm is activated when the current load exceeds 10% of maximum, this is probably done in hardware and not related to the actual problem but just a tripwire to activate the control circuit. Samsung is certainly aware of the potential for the behavior that is being discussed, this is a quote from one of their patents for their APC(automatic power control) circuit:
Changing this circuit may not be trivial and would certainly be expensive to properly test and distribute via new logic boards.
Geeez!! That's the exact anomaly everybody has been seeing on these plasmas. Why up until now have we all treated this brightness pop anomaly as something "new"??? It's clearly stated in their design/white papers. I'm confused that this hasn't been brought up sooner on this thread...thanks Zoyd!
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post #2168 of 12346 Old 04-11-2013, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by barth2k View Post

It worries me that this issues has persisted through several model years. Samsung surely knows about the issue. This indicates it may be something inherent in the design, a trade off somewhere the Samsung engineers decided to make. In previous years, they released new firmware that was supposed to fix it; some people thought it did, some insisted no.

Please explain more about Kevin's cal day settings. How did you guys determine the FBr was eliminated? Did you watch a known problematic clip and saw it gone? Could it be Kevin just fortuitously fixed the pop on that and similar clips but maybe other, different material will show it? Is this the set where you could only see like 2 instances of popping after so many hours staring at it? Or was that Robert Zohn's?

What about the cal night settings?

I see Kevin's settings floating around on this thread. I take it people have tried them but they did not fix the FBr on their sets?

Barth, I really don't know how Kevin set Cal Day since it had been done prior to my arrival. This was the set at Robert's store, but no, we saw only one instance of popping in 2 hours.

In terns of how we saw it eliminate the issue, yes, we had an identified clip from hockey that we recorded. This was from some hockey channel on Directv that was showing numerous clips from around the NHL. This was the only clip they played that showed the problem. For me, this is confusing enough. So many of the clips looked to the eye to be identical. A mix of ice and crowd in roughly the same proportion. So why weren't most of these clips impacted? Just bizarre.

But every time we played the offending clip and cycled through the different picture modes, Cal Day was the only one that totally, 100%, eliminated the popping. It was also 100% repeatable. As you said, could it have cured just this clip and other, totally different scenes, might not have been fixed? It's possible, but that was the only clip we could find.

That Grade B movie I saw at Magnolia prior to the show would have been a good test since the popping was fairly frequent on that set. Yet the same set, playing Life of Pi showed no issues. It seemed to me the Grade B movie was poorly mastered and very 'hot', so perhaps that was a factor too. Who knows?
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post #2169 of 12346 Old 04-11-2013, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

It depends on where the decision to limit the current is made and implemented. From what I've read the algorithm is activated when the current load exceeds 10% of maximum, this is probably done in hardware and not related to the actual problem but just a tripwire to activate the control circuit. Samsung is certainly aware of the potential for the behavior that is being discussed, this is a quote from one of their patents for their APC(automatic power control) circuit:
Changing this circuit may not be trivial and would certainly be expensive to properly test and distribute via new logic boards.

Hmm. It seems to me what they're describing is more characteristic of typical ABL fluctuations. A single drop down in brightness. Samsung's accompanying chart also shows it as a single step change. But as I and others have seen, it's almost always a 2-stage change. What's even stranger, as a few have mentioned and I've seen, where you'd expect the brightness to drop, the 2-step change is an increase in brightness.
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post #2170 of 12346 Old 04-11-2013, 08:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Personally I would wait to see if the replacement set exhibits the same tendencies as the old one. It sounds like you have an extreeme case IMO, but if you are not coming from Plasma you may notice it more on top of the other things that are different between Plasma and LCD.....
There is nothing wrong with findsing out a certain TV\Tech isnt for you, happens all the time smile.gif the only one that needs to be happy is you and your family...I wish you luck in finding a new TV....
Very good points. I know that the only LED's that are close to this picture is the XBR-55HX950 / XBR-65HX950. Their replacements look to be promising to, the XBR-55X900A / XBR-65X900A which will be out in about 30 days.........
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post #2171 of 12346 Old 04-11-2013, 09:11 AM
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Very good points. I know that the only LED's that are close to this picture is the XBR-55HX950 / XBR-65HX950. Their replacements look to be promising to, the XBR-55X900A / XBR-65X900A which will be out in about 30 days.........

Im guessing at a higher price point as well wink.gif but sometimes its worth the extra money to be happy biggrin.gif
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post #2172 of 12346 Old 04-11-2013, 09:35 AM
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Auto Power Control, Auto Brightness Limiter....these circuits are designed to "reduce" brightness on the screen.....However, this "pop" phenomenon most have witnessed, and Ken has stated countless times on the 8500, is not synonymous with brightness reduction.....all those affected have noticed an increase in brightness (2 or 3 distinct steps). I guess we're just shooting blindfolded right now to figure out where(internally) this anomaly resides.
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post #2173 of 12346 Old 04-11-2013, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Hmm. It seems to me what they're describing is more characteristic of typical ABL fluctuations. A single drop down in brightness. Samsung's accompanying chart also shows it as a single step change. But as I and others have seen, it's almost always a 2-stage change. What's even stranger, as a few have mentioned and I've seen, where you'd expect the brightness to drop, the 2-step change is an increase in brightness.

well yes, the example used a generic known problem with fast APC circuits (prior art) that is used as a lead-in to describe how the subject patent will improve things using a slow APC circuit. My point was that Samsung is clearly aware that the APC is a potential source of noticeable high luminance fluctuations, not that it described the previous observations exactly. Also, if you look through the design of the slow APC and how it's implemented via sustain pulse LUTs it is obvious to me that it's not a simple circuit to change, so unless they get a significant fraction of the customer base complaining about it (or bad press) you won't see any modifications.
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post #2174 of 12346 Old 04-11-2013, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

Very good points. I know that the only LED's that are close to this picture is the XBR-55HX950 / XBR-65HX950. Their replacements look to be promising to, the XBR-55X900A / XBR-65X900A which will be out in about 30 days.........

Im guessing at a higher price point as well wink.gif but sometimes its worth the extra money to be happy biggrin.gif

Yeah, but unfortunately all the new Sonys will be edge lit and of lower quality than the full array. It's really too bad all the these great techs are going the way of the dinosaur.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
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post #2175 of 12346 Old 04-11-2013, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post

Auto Power Control, Auto Brightness Limiter....these circuits are designed to "reduce" brightness on the screen.....However, this "pop" phenomenon most have witnessed, and Ken has stated countless times on the 8500, is not synonymous with brightness reduction.....all those affected have noticed an increase in brightness (2 or 3 distinct steps). I guess we're just shooting blindfolded right now to figure out where(internally) this anomaly resides.

The circuit works both ways, it will "clamp" on the way up the APL curve and "release" on the way down the APL curve, so you could see fluctuations either up or down if not done smoothly.
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post #2176 of 12346 Old 04-11-2013, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by greenland View Post

I would advise people to not put too much stock yet in the number of complaints about issues with the F8500. After all, we do not know what percentage of new owners that represents. It might be a small percentage of the overall number who have already purchased the model? Keep in mind; this place is like a hospital emergency room, where only those who are sick or hypochondriacs are to be found, and neither are a true representation of the population at large.

I have considered the F8500 from the start as almost a First Generation Introduction, since it is so vastly different than previous models designs and functionality; which leads me to expect that there are bound to be some problems with the first year model, which will have to be either fixed with updates or in the 2014 model.

We have no idea how reliable the new components, to provide the much great power demands made by the higher brightness levels, etc are going to be. Only more time will let us see if the components hold up or not.

On a lighter note; If they wish to get rid of the largest Pop problems,they should call in Mayor Bloomberg to do the job.

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post #2177 of 12346 Old 04-11-2013, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

The circuit works both ways, it will "clamp" on the way up the APL curve and "release" on the way down the APL curve, so you could see fluctuations either up or down if not done smoothly.
Thanks for the clarification. Interesting that we don't notice the brightness reduction fluctuations.
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post #2178 of 12346 Old 04-11-2013, 10:00 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Thelt2000x View Post

What size tv?

51
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post #2179 of 12346 Old 04-11-2013, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by greenland View Post

I would advise people to not put too much stock yet in the number of complaints about issues with the F8500. After all, we do not know what percentage of new owners that represents. It might be a small percentage of the overall number who have already purchased the model? Keep in mind; this place is like a hospital emergency room, where only those who are sick or hypochondriacs are to be found, and neither are a true representation of the population at large.

I have considered the F8500 from the start as almost a First Generation Introduction, since it is so vastly different than previous models designs and functionality; which leads me to expect that there are bound to be some problems with the first year model, which will have to be either fixed with updates or in the 2014 model.

We have no idea how reliable the new components, to provide the much great power demands made by the higher brightness levels, etc are going to be. Only more time will let us see if the components hold up or not.

On a lighter note; If they wish to get rid of the largest Pop problems,they should call in Mayor Bloomberg to do the job.

Its not that I wouldnt put too much stock in them, but overall yes I agree with you.....
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post #2180 of 12346 Old 04-11-2013, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

The circuit works both ways, it will "clamp" on the way up the APL curve and "release" on the way down the APL curve, so you could see fluctuations either up or down if not done smoothly.

Can there be variations in how each F8500 responds to this or would they all respond the same with the same calibration settings?

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post #2181 of 12346 Old 04-11-2013, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post

Thanks for the clarification. Interesting that we don't notice the brightness reduction fluctuations.

So far the described behavior is consistent with the measured response of the E-series, more jagged response going down the APL curve than up.
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post #2182 of 12346 Old 04-11-2013, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

51

It seems as though the 51 inch doesn't suffer from this as much as the 64 inch.
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post #2183 of 12346 Old 04-11-2013, 10:14 AM
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Can there be variations in how each F8500 responds to this or would they all respond the same with the same calibration settings?

I would not expect any difference based on things like white balance, color, or any of the picture enhancement controls. However, Cell light should have some effect because this limits the maximum number of sustain pulses available and since the circuit works by modifying the distribution of sustain pulses vs. APL you could get some interaction between how these are quantized and the timing of the luminance change.
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post #2184 of 12346 Old 04-11-2013, 10:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Thelt2000x View Post

It seems as though the 51 inch doesn't suffer from this as much as the 64 inch.

Maybe the ABL curve is smaller as it sucks less juice.

I could not fit anything bigger in my cabinet. A 55 would fit but alas they didn't make that size...
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post #2185 of 12346 Old 04-11-2013, 10:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Yeah, but unfortunately all the new Sonys will be edge lit and of lower quality than the full array. It's really too bad all the these great techs are going the way of the dinosaur.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
This is new technology that Sony has, so it will have to be tested. It is some kind of hybrid, the unit is lit by "Dynamic Edge LED backlighting with local dimming" I would not throw it in the Edge lit only category just yet, but we may have too frown.gif
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Im guessing at a higher price point as well wink.gif but sometimes its worth the extra money to be happy biggrin.gif
They are pricy, the new units are 4K technology too.
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post #2186 of 12346 Old 04-11-2013, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Thelt2000x View Post

It seems as though the 51 inch doesn't suffer from this as much as the 64 inch.
It's present in the 51", but it's not a deal breaker for me. I think the larger the screen size, the more prominent this brightness fluctuation will show up. Last night while watching a hockey game, I brought up a smaller window on my screen to view the game, and saw no brightness fluctuations whatsoever in that small window.
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post #2187 of 12346 Old 04-11-2013, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

I would not expect any difference based on things like white balance, color, or any of the picture enhancement controls. However, Cell light should have some effect because this limits the maximum number of sustain pulses available and since the circuit works by modifying the distribution of sustain pulses vs. APL you could get some interaction between how these are quantized and the timing of the luminance change.

Have we confirmed that everyone who is experiencing the fluctuations is on the latest firmware? It just seems irreconcilable that some have it and some don't (other than different settings, which also doesn't seem consistent).

I definitely had it, but it is completely gone, and I have updated my firmware.
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post #2188 of 12346 Old 04-11-2013, 10:31 AM
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Have we confirmed that everyone who is experiencing the fluctuations is on the latest firmware? It just seems irreconcilable that some have it and some don't (other than different settings, which also doesn't seem consistent).

I definitely had it, but it is completely gone, and I have updated my firmware.
You're the first person on this whole thread who has stated that the brightness fluctuations on your 8500 have completely vanished after a firmware upgrade. I upgraded my tv firmware the day I purchased it, and I still see the brightness fluctuations. Really? As more than a few have mentioned in this thread, this brightness anomaly is definitely aggravated by the owner's sensitivity to the phenomenon. The more sensitive you are to this, the more you want to trade/swap out the tv when all recommendations have failed to eliminate the issue.
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post #2189 of 12346 Old 04-11-2013, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by SJA05 View Post

Have we confirmed that everyone who is experiencing the fluctuations is on the latest firmware? It just seems irreconcilable that some have it and some don't (other than different settings, which also doesn't seem consistent).

I definitely had it, but it is completely gone, and I have updated my firmware.

Panel variation, settings, and sensitivity can all be leading factors in seeing it more often....If you dont see it be happy smile.gif
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post #2190 of 12346 Old 04-11-2013, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by SJA05 View Post

Have we confirmed that everyone who is experiencing the fluctuations is on the latest firmware? It just seems irreconcilable that some have it and some don't (other than different settings, which also doesn't seem consistent).

I definitely had it, but it is completely gone, and I have updated my firmware.

Any other reports of similar? When you updated do you recall if the TV rebooted once or twice?
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