Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 82 - AVS Forum
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post #2431 of 12514 Old 04-13-2013, 09:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by endlessender View Post


I'll keep everyone posted on the progress and please, I would suggest calling Samsung about this issue and elevating it as well if you are experiencing the problem.
If enough people complain, you would think they will look much harder at the issue.

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post #2432 of 12514 Old 04-13-2013, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by pred1973 View Post

IR = Image Retention. Image Retention is when a residual image remains after viewing. Basically a static part of the image (like a station logo, ticker, or HUD in video games) causes an uneven wearing of the phosphors that remains after the image has changed. If you are watching 4:3 material 95% of the time, the phosphors on the sides of the screen will age very differently from the rest of the screen, and over time you would begin to notice that when watching 16:9 material the sides of the picture looked different from the middle portion.

This is inherent in the way that a plasma tv generates light, in that there are tiny little cells (pockets) that contain phosphors, an electrical charge passes through the phosphors which causes the phosphors to "glow". A LCD on the other hand uses bulbs to generate light, that light passes through essentially tiny little prisms (not really prisms but Liquid Crystal Diodes but the principal is similar) to refract the light into colors. There are no lingering effects with a LCD displaying a static image, where-as with plasma there can be to a varying degree that depends on many factors, but depending on those factors it can be very noticeable.

For those of you in the forum who feel the need to correct me, please understand I am trying answer the question in a way that the person asking it could understand, and I am assuming they are not familiar with current tv technology. Sort of a quick, dirty answer if you will.

Thanks so much for the great description. I appreciate you taking the time!

So here's a question for everyone. Like I said, my wife and I have NEVER yet owned a flat screen...we're still on a CRT. We are on Dish Network and have no plans to change that. We will also have Apple TV to watch Netflix, iTunes Movies, etc. Most of our viewing will be through these two methods. But the majority of our viewing will be coming off of Dish.

Because we've never owned a flat screen, we don't know the answer to the following question: Is most of today's programming that is coming over Dish (ie, CNN, HGTV, BRAVO, ESPN, ABC, NBC, CBS, etc etc) broadcast in a 16:9 format or is there still a considerable amount broadcast in 4:3? My understanding was that nearly all of today's programming is HD, and I thought that meant it was 16:9. Am I under the wrong impression? If we are watching mostly these types of "cable/Sat" channels, would we see bands a lot of the time that would force us to be concerned with IR?

Thanks again, everyone...you are really being helpful to me!
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post #2433 of 12514 Old 04-13-2013, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by endlessender View Post

Ok well I just got a call and had a discussion with a gentlemen from Samsung's Tier 2 support. He had me look at the usual suspects:Eco-sense, picture mode, Motion Lighting. I humored him. cool.gif.

Anyway, he doesn't know what to do to fix the problem (not entirely unexpected) but will elevate to a higher level and investigate (probably folks in a more engineering related department). Those people are not available on the weekend so he said he would discuss the issue with them and get back to me Monday.

I'll keep everyone posted on the progress and please, I would suggest calling Samsung about this issue and elevating it as well if you are experiencing the problem.

IMO, this is the only thing keeping this from being probably the ideal TV (well the input lag could be a bit better, but I'm growing weary of looking for the perfect TV). wink.gif


+1
Thanks endless...
Your time and info is greatly appreciated.. Very curious to hear what they have to say..
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post #2434 of 12514 Old 04-13-2013, 09:40 AM
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Anyone watching Masters Golf Tournament in 3D? It's on right now on ESPN3D.

Brightness fluctuations are apparent in the grass in many many shots. It's the most prevalent examples I've seen thus far and kind of bumming me out to be honest. Grass will change hue simply because a guy in a white jumpsuit walked across the grass, ther's a cut to a different camera, etc. Flatten to 2D and the same seen shows no fluctuation at all.

I notice that when toggling 2D and 3D on Masters Golf that the picture, w/o glasses, gets much brighter in 3D (probably to compensate for the active lenses?). This could very well be what's freaking out the ABL system.

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post #2435 of 12514 Old 04-13-2013, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by endlessender View Post

Ok well I just got a call and had a discussion with a gentlemen from Samsung's Tier 2 support. He had me look at the usual suspects:Eco-sense, picture mode, Motion Lighting. I humored him. cool.gif

Anyway, I explained deeply about what I and others on this forum are experiencing and gave background into what makes it happen, what "fixes" it, the 2D/3D differences and anything else I could offer. I also explained that some are holding off on purchases and others have even returned or are considering doing so because of this issue and that others may have introduced similar support tickets that they could reference for a more total picture about this problem. I stressed that, from a PR perspective, Samsung IMHO should take this issue very seriously indeed, and address it in the most expedient manner possible (wasn't being a jerk just honest with him).

Anyway, he doesn't know what to do to fix the problem (not entirely unexpected) but will elevate to a higher level and investigate (probably folks in a more engineering related department). Those people are not available on the weekend so he said he would discuss the issue with them and get back to me Monday.

I'll keep everyone posted on the progress and please, I would suggest calling Samsung about this issue and elevating it as well if you are experiencing the problem.

IMO, this is the only thing keeping this from being probably the ideal TV (well the input lag could be a bit better, but I'm growing weary of looking for the perfect TV). wink.gif

I would recommend people calling and reporting this issue and not jsut waiting to ehar back from one user report. The more people that call\report the issue the better. smile.gif

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Originally Posted by johnnyvn View Post

Thanks so much for the great description. I appreciate you taking the time!

So here's a question for everyone. Like I said, my wife and I have NEVER yet owned a flat screen...we're still on a CRT. We are on Dish Network and have no plans to change that. We will also have Apple TV to watch Netflix, iTunes Movies, etc. Most of our viewing will be through these two methods. But the majority of our viewing will be coming off of Dish.

Because we've never owned a flat screen, we don't know the answer to the following question: Is most of today's programming that is coming over Dish (ie, CNN, HGTV, BRAVO, ESPN, ABC, NBC, CBS, etc etc) broadcast in a 16:9 format or is there still a considerable amount broadcast in 4:3? My understanding was that nearly all of today's programming is HD, and I thought that meant it was 16:9. Am I under the wrong impression? If we are watching mostly these types of "cable/Sat" channels, would we see bands a lot of the time that would force us to be concerned with IR?

Thanks again, everyone...you are really being helpful to me!

The answer is, it depends......

If you are watching HD channels then yet most of the shows\movies will be 16:9 and "fill" your screen. 4:3 is mostly due to SD shows\movies or shows movies made before everyone switched to HD and never were converted. Do you subscribe to the HD package? If not then you may have to (Im not familliar with Dish's packagae offerings so I am not sure if you currently ahve access to those channels or you need to subscribe to them......Most content is available in HD when watching via the various content providers, but not only does it depend on the source (weather the show\movie is actually available in "widdescreen" format but that the provider makes it available to you as well.

If you are watching a lot of channels with "hard" logo bugs (youll see it in the corner usually solid colors) then its best to be "careful" when watching those channels with a plasma as those station logos can cause IR if left static for too long...Most of IR is temporary though and then it only comes down to how long it takes to get rid of it.......

The 4:3 content question earlier was probably related to the type of shows and movies (older) that the user watchess and knows are not available in widescreen format thus you would see bars on the left and right. You can stretch this material, but most prefer to have it display in its Original Aspect Ratio (OAR) and shown with bars.....
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post #2436 of 12514 Old 04-13-2013, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by johnnyvn View Post

Thanks so much for the great description. I appreciate you taking the time!

So here's a question for everyone. Like I said, my wife and I have NEVER yet owned a flat screen...we're still on a CRT. We are on Dish Network and have no plans to change that. We will also have Apple TV to watch Netflix, iTunes Movies, etc. Most of our viewing will be through these two methods. But the majority of our viewing will be coming off of Dish.

Because we've never owned a flat screen, we don't know the answer to the following question: Is most of today's programming that is coming over Dish (ie, CNN, HGTV, BRAVO, ESPN, ABC, NBC, CBS, etc etc) broadcast in a 16:9 format or is there still a considerable amount broadcast in 4:3? My understanding was that nearly all of today's programming is HD, and I thought that meant it was 16:9. Am I under the wrong impression? If we are watching mostly these types of "cable/Sat" channels, would we see bands a lot of the time that would force us to be concerned with IR?

Thanks again, everyone...you are really being helpful to me!
Walk into your local tv/electronics store and you will have your answer. No company makes a 4:3 tube tv anymore. It's all 16:9 flat panels. No worries. Most cable/satellite programming is in 16:9 format. You will probably need to upgrade your Dish package to HD to take full advantage of your new tv purchase. Even the few broadcasts that aren't in hd resolution, you can set your tv to "fit to the screen size". Once you get an lcd/led/plasma tv, life will be different....in a good way for you. In fact if you have never viewed hd programming before, the difference will be like night and day smile.gif I've been trying to get my parents to salvage their 4:3 picture tube for years.....they said they'll make the change when their tv dies out....which may be beyond their lifetimes...lol
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post #2437 of 12514 Old 04-13-2013, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by endlessender View Post

Anyone watching Masters Golf Tournament in 3D? It's on right now on ESPN3D.

Brightness fluctuations are apparent in the grass in many many shots. It's the most prevalent examples I've seen thus far and kind of bumming me out to be honest. Grass will change hue simply because a guy in a white jumpsuit walked across the grass, ther's a cut to a different camera, etc. Flatten to 2D and the same seen shows no fluctuation at all.

I notice that when toggling 2D and 3D on Masters Golf that the picture, w/o glasses, gets much brighter in 3D (probably to compensate for the active lenses?). This could very well be what's freaking out the ABL system.

Have you tried adjusting your settigns when switching to 3d? there are seperate modes and the settings need to be adjusted for 3D as well as 2D....If you take a look at Kevin Millers calibration report he posted settings for 3D content as well as 2D....
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post #2438 of 12514 Old 04-13-2013, 10:24 AM
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Have you tried adjusting your settings when switching to 3d? there are seperate modes and the settings need to be adjusted for 3D as well as 2D....If you take a look at Kevin Millers calibration report he posted settings for 3D content as well as 2D....

Good point. I did some experimenting.

Gamma, Brightness and Contrast all play a role here it seems. The Miller settings for 3D have Gamaa at -3. Not setting it this way is probably why brightness flickering is exacerbated in 3D. I did set to the Miller settings and, while better (I'm guessing due to the lowered Gamma), it's still there. But - Gamma at -3, Contrast at 75 and Brightness at 42 eliminates the brightness fluctuations I'm seeing in 3D golf. Anything set any higher and it comes back again.

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post #2439 of 12514 Old 04-13-2013, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by endlessender View Post

Good point. I did some experimenting.

Gamma, Brightness and Contrast all play a role here it seems. The Miller settings for 3D have Gamaa at -3. Not setting it this way is probably why brightness flickering is exacerbated in 3D. I did set to the Miller settings and, while better (I'm guessing due to the lowered Gamma), it's still there. But - Gamma at -3, Contrast at 75 and Brightness at 42 eliminates the brightness fluctuations I'm seeing in 3D golf. Anything set any higher and it comes back again.

Interesting thanks for the information smile.gif
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post #2440 of 12514 Old 04-13-2013, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by endlessender View Post

Good point. I did some experimenting.

Gamma, Brightness and Contrast all play a role here it seems. The Miller settings for 3D have Gamaa at -3. Not setting it this way is probably why brightness flickering is exacerbated in 3D. I did set to the Miller settings and, while better (I'm guessing due to the lowered Gamma), it's still there. But - Gamma at -3, Contrast at 75 and Brightness at 42 eliminates the brightness fluctuations I'm seeing in 3D golf. Anything set any higher and it comes back again.

EDIT - check it out

Ok so here's the other thing that fixes it, leaving brightness and contrast settings normal (~95 & 47) and engaging...yep..dynamic contrast. At "low" I don't see any brightness fluctuations thus far in scenes that exhibited it before. I do still see it in Hockey though...although much reduced.

Now I realize we don't really want to engage dynamic contrast, but interesting that it seems to greatly help, if not fix in all cases, the fluctuation problems (even at "low").

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post #2441 of 12514 Old 04-13-2013, 11:02 AM
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I want to ask one question I have a PN60E8000 right now thinking about getting the F8500 does the info button when watching Netflix or Amazon streaming give you any info at all. currently my E8000 gives no info

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post #2442 of 12514 Old 04-13-2013, 11:10 AM
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EDIT - check it out

Ok so here's the other thing that fixes it, leaving brightness and contrast settings normal (~95 & 47) and engaging...yep..dynamic contrast. At "low" I don't see any brightness fluctuations thus far in scenes that exhibited it before. I do still see it in Hockey though...although much reduced.

Now I realize we don't really want to engage dynamic contrast, but interesting that it seems to greatly help, if not fix in all cases, the fluctuation problems (even at "low").

The more information on casues\cures the better smile.gif it will help Samsung hopefully pinpoint the issue and either deie to fix it or let the people know why they wont.......Hopefully Robert is either monitoring this thread or Ken is passing along information to him so that Robert can let his Samsung contact know......

Ill say it again, hopefully more owners start to call Samsung and log incidents. The more people that call, the more "important" this issue will be to them.....
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post #2443 of 12514 Old 04-13-2013, 11:16 AM
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Yea I should have referred to it as its been discussed here. To clarify, by flickering I mean the popping, the repetitive flash every several seconds you get when in 16 or 17 cell light. I'm NOT referring to the light fluctuations related to ABL that most of the complaints are about (I don't have that issue, at least not to the degree others are claiming. But then again I don't watch hockey. :-P)


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Elvamir, you have any 3D blu-rays?

Yes, why?


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post #2444 of 12514 Old 04-13-2013, 11:38 AM
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[quote name="endlessender" url="/t/1463454/official-samsung-pnxxf8500-series-discussion-thread-no-street-price-talk/2430#post_23199671y higher and it comes back again.[/quote]

Ok so here's the other thing that fixes it, leaving brightness and contrast settings normal (~95 & 47) and engaging...yep..dynamic contrast. At "low" I don't see any brightness fluctuations thus far in scenes that exhibited it before. I do still see it in Hockey though...although much reduced.

Now I realize we don't really want to engage dynamic contrast, but interesting that it seems to greatly help, if not fix in all cases, the fluctuation problems (even at "low").[/quote]

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Hmm. Wonder if this is engaged in Cal Day automatically??
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post #2445 of 12514 Old 04-13-2013, 11:52 AM
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Yes, why?


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Just been looking for someone to check out the brightness pops that I"m seeing in 3d content, like Prometheus particularly.

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post #2446 of 12514 Old 04-13-2013, 11:54 AM
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It has and especially in the past two weeks. For what it's worth, it's a major debate discussion so you're not going to get an answer that someone else won't challenge. is consistent because there is a wide range of experiences with pops.

Nothing really to challenge.....

Its been confirmed to show up on all panels, the amount and source material vary form set to set, users have found taht settings\calibration either eliminate or greatly reduce the fluctuations.....Some people are jsut more sensitive to fluctuations as well, if you are, then this may not be the right set for you (even with the ability to lower or eliminate via settings)....Pretty cut and dry wink.gif
You're right. I've revised what I wrote. smile.gif

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post #2447 of 12514 Old 04-13-2013, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyvn View Post

A couple of quick questions. What is/are IR? Not really understanding what that is.

Seconarily, why do some of you feel that if I were watching 4:3 most of the time, that LCD would be better than plasma? Can you explain a bit? Even still, it seems like nearly all of the content we watch over Dish Network is HD, and isn't that almost always 16:9 or something closer to that than 4:3?

Thanks much, everyone!

IR = Image Retention. Image Retention is when a residual image remains after viewing. ...
Thanks for replying to johnnyvn. Since he is not the one watching 95% SDTV (Skylinestar) I'm adding a link to one of my rants about mixing the sources that are being watched and how that helps minimize the effects of fixed image IR.

Johnnyvn click here. smile.gif

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post #2448 of 12514 Old 04-13-2013, 12:33 PM
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Samsung F8500 Television Info. Review:

http://www.televisioninfo.com/content/samsung-f8500-review-2

Summary; Best HDTV available today.
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post #2449 of 12514 Old 04-13-2013, 12:41 PM
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Hmm. Wonder if this is engaged in Cal Day automatically??

I doubt if a calibrator would leave Dynamic Contrast engaged during or after calibration.

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post #2450 of 12514 Old 04-13-2013, 01:07 PM
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Hi. Yesterday I bought the F8500. Im coming from a C8000 that had the widespread pink banding problem so this was a huge step up. Without a doubt this is an amazing tv. The picture is bright and spectacular and watching the snow scenes in Game Of Thrones and the Alice In Wonderland 3D blu ray literally blew my mind. Unfortunately I am noticing brightness pops - especially in 3D content. I can report turning down the contrast does work though. With that said I really have nothing bad to say about this tv (not yet anyway) -- and would still recommend it. Im using movie mode and black optimizer is off.

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post #2451 of 12514 Old 04-13-2013, 01:13 PM
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Hi. Yesterday I bought the F8500. Im coming from a C8000 that had the widespread pink banding problem so this was a huge step up. Without a doubt this is an amazing tv. The picture is bright and spectacular and watching the snow scenes in Game Of Thrones and the Alice In Wonderland 3D blu ray literally blew my mind. Unfortunately I am noticing brightness pops - especially in 3D content. I can report turning down the contrast does work though. With that said I really have nothing bad to say about this tv (not yet anyway) -- and would still recommend it. Im using movie mode and black optimizer is off.

I'm guessing you have the 60" or 64"??
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post #2452 of 12514 Old 04-13-2013, 01:14 PM
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I'm guessing you have the 60" or 64"??


yes i have the 64 sorry i forgot to mention that.

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post #2453 of 12514 Old 04-13-2013, 01:17 PM
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yes i have the 64 sorry i forgot to mention that.

This is such a disappointment for 64" owners. Will be sad to say goodbye to it but watching hockey, the masters, and deadliest catch is pretty hard.
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post #2454 of 12514 Old 04-13-2013, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Thelt2000x View Post

This is such a disappointment for 64" owners. Will be sad to say goodbye to it but watching hockey, the masters, and deadliest catch is pretty hard.

I agree but I have to say even with the contrast turned down it still looks way better then the C8000 that im coming from. The brightness and the video processing is excellent. I really hope there is a fix soon but im not holding my breath.-- Was glad to read on here that Samsung said they are aware of this issue.

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post #2455 of 12514 Old 04-13-2013, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Thelt2000x View Post

This is such a disappointment for 64" owners. Will be sad to say goodbye to it but watching hockey, the masters, and deadliest catch is pretty hard.

I have no doubt this will be corrected by Samsung in the very near future seeing my 51" and others with the 51F8500 have reported they are not experiencing this issue.

Damian if you're willing I'd call Samsung like endlessender did and push this issue (see post 2439 on the previous page) the more buyers report it the faster they'll get the correction out.... hopefully wink.gif
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post #2456 of 12514 Old 04-13-2013, 01:28 PM
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This is such a disappointment for 64" owners. Will be sad to say goodbye to it but watching hockey, the masters, and deadliest catch is pretty hard.
So reading this the brightness pops are more common to the 64"???? the 51" and 60" seems better and not effected ???? As much is that what I'm reading.

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post #2457 of 12514 Old 04-13-2013, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Damien Inferno View Post

I agree but I have to say even with the contrast turned down it still looks way better then the C8000 that im coming from. The brightness and the video processing is excellent. I really hope there is a fix soon but im not holding my breath.-- Was glad to read on here that Samsung said they are aware of this issue.

I will respectively disagree with you. I didn't like the contrast down. And kind of defeated the purpose of my purchase. The way I look at it its a win win for me either the VT or ZT will be better and I will get one of those or hopefully a fix will come out for this set and maybe it will be cheaper at that time.
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post #2458 of 12514 Old 04-13-2013, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Thelt2000x View Post

I will respectively disagree with you. I didn't like the contrast down. And kind of defeated the purpose of my purchase. The way I look at it its a win win for me either the VT or ZT will be better and I will get one of those or hopefully a fix will come out for this set and maybe it will be cheaper at that time.

I can totally understand your point. Also I was about to buy last years VT but all the complaints about the video processing on it when using non 1080p sources scared me off.

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post #2459 of 12514 Old 04-13-2013, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Pinger View Post

I have no doubt this will be corrected by Samsung in the very near future seeing my 51" and others with the 51F8500 have reported they are not experiencing this issue.

Damian if you're willing I'd call Samsung like endlessender did and push this issue (see post 2439 on the previous page) the more buyers report it the faster they'll get the correction out.... hopefully wink.gif

Absolutely will do asap.

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post #2460 of 12514 Old 04-13-2013, 01:50 PM
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So reading this the brightness pops are more common to the 64"???? the 51" and 60" seems better and not effected ???? As much is that what I'm reading.

Well more visable that could be the case becasue of the extra size.....I wouldnt say not effected as we ahve reports form owners of all 3 sizes reporting variations of what they see. We also have 64" owners that have lessend the issue or hardly see the issue as well.....As with all things its a toss up since there is not conclusive eveidence what we are seeing and we have varrying reports of what people see and where they see it. Right now the more that people report this issue to Samsung the better. The more people that try different settings to try to see what does and doesnt "work" the better.....
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