Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - Page 86 - AVS Forum
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post #2551 of 12505 Old 04-14-2013, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by oinchats View Post

It seems like I buy a TV every 10 years or so. In fact got my first flat screen LED in 2009. Made the mistake of getting a 32" as that was plenty big for my old CRT. I am ready for a 65". I have read a few thousand posts on the F8500 and the ST-VT 60's. Maybe I have too much information for my viewing preferences. These panaels may be overkill for me as I only watch HD TV, lots of footbal and basketball (maybe less Lakers now that they are Kobe-less) and a movie now and then. I have yet to make a decision as I am waiting for reviews by CNET of the F8500 and the VT60. But for someone uninformed as I am can someone explain in simple not-tech english what exactly is a "pop" and the "ABL". Thanks in advance for any reply.

ABL= Auto Brightness Limiter.....It is a finction on ALL plasmas that basically prevents the TV from going into meltdown mode....At least from my understanding it will mostly "kick in" when there are overly bright screens......

As far as "pop" goes this is a result of the ABL circuit or algorithm reacting "too quickly" and making quick adjustments instead of gradual ones....this will manifest itself as what looks like a "pop" of brighness on the screen instead of a gradual increasing\lowering of brightness....If you do a search in the thread for fluctuation youll see a ton of comments on the matter.....
.Im sure someone can put a better explination , but thats the quick and dirty of it
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post #2552 of 12505 Old 04-14-2013, 11:56 AM
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Ill be headed back to best buy maybe this week to take another look at the F8500, I ahve a 16GB USB stick loaded with clips from movies\demos (a little bit of everything). I have also included the "ramp" from zoyd as well as the Black\white test from one of te Blu-ray Reference Demo disks that was made by a member of the forums......I may wait until the VT60 gets there though so I can test it out on both sets.....
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post #2553 of 12505 Old 04-14-2013, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by oinchats View Post

It seems like I buy a TV every 10 years or so. In fact got my first flat screen LED in 2009. Made the mistake of getting a 32" as that was plenty big for my old CRT. I am ready for a 65". I have read a few thousand posts on the F8500 and the ST-VT 60's. Maybe I have too much information for my viewing preferences. These panaels may be overkill for me as I only watch HD TV, lots of footbal and basketball (maybe less Lakers now that they are Kobe-less) and a movie now and then. I have yet to make a decision as I am waiting for reviews by CNET of the F8500 and the VT60. But for someone uninformed as I am can someone explain in simple not-tech english what exactly is a "pop" and the "ABL". Thanks in advance for any reply.

Pop = sudden momentary increase in brightness of the bright part of a scene containing both light and dark elements

ABL = sudden dimming of the picture when a large portion of the screen contains predominantly bright elements
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post #2554 of 12505 Old 04-14-2013, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by pred1973 View Post

Pop = sudden momentary increase in brightness of the bright part of a scene containing both light and dark elements

ABL = sudden dimming of the picture when a large portion of the screen contains predominantly bright elements

Thats not really for ABL wink.gif

http://www.google.com/patents/US4520397
Quote:
Auto brightness limiter circuit for television
US 4520397 A


Abstract


An automatic brightness limiter circuit is disclosed in which a separate digital signal display from a personal computer is superimposed on a television broadcast screen and displayed simultaneously with a video broadcast signal. The beam current of the cathode ray tube is detected and if found to exceed a prescribed value, feedback is applied only to the video amplifier circuit amplifying the video signal. Feedback is not applied to the amplifier circuit of the digital signal display. The amplifier of this digital signal display is arranged so that independent limiting action is carried out corresponding to the amplitude of the digital signal.

http://www.google.com/patents/US5699127
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Automatic brightness limiter automatic control circuit, contrast limiter control circuit, luminance/color difference signal processor and video display apparatus
US 5699127 A


Abstract


The object of the present invention is to easily compensate automatic brightness limiting performance and automatic contrast limiting performance even if a picture is displayed with a different aspect ratio and to prevent deterioration of picture quality such as gradation and sharpness. A picture display apparatus includes (1) an automatic brightness limiter (ABL) circuit including a comparison circuit for varying an EHT compensation starting point, an ABL gain control circuit for varying a slope of the EHT characteristic versus the APL, an ABL comparison voltage generator, a DAC for adjusting an ABL compensation starting point and a DAC for adjusting an ABL gain and (2) an automatic contrast limiter (ACL) circuit including another comparison circuit for varying an EHT compensation starting point, an ACL gain control circuit for varying a slope of the EHT characteristic versus the APL, an ACL comparison voltage generator, a DAC for adjusting an ACL compensation starting point and a DAC for adjusting an ACL gain.


What you described is a result of the ABL......
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post #2555 of 12505 Old 04-14-2013, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Thats not really for ABL wink.gif

http://www.google.com/patents/US4520397
http://www.google.com/patents/US5699127
What you described is a result of the ABL......

which is what they were asking for, not-technical explanation smile.gif

if they had asked for a technical explanation, yours would be perfect smile.gif
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post #2556 of 12505 Old 04-14-2013, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

ABL= Auto Brightness Limiter.....It is a finction on ALL plasmas that basically prevents the TV from going into meltdown mode....At least from my understanding it will mostly "kick in" when there are overly bright screens......

As far as "pop" goes this is a result of the ABL circuit or algorithm reacting "too quickly" and making quick adjustments instead of gradual ones....this will manifest itself as what looks like a "pop" of brighness on the screen instead of a gradual increasing\lowering of brightness....If you do a search in the thread for fluctuation youll see a ton of comments on the matter.....
.Im sure someone can put a better explination , but thats the quick and dirty of it
I know you guys really know what you're talking about and I ALWAYS come here for information but, but ,but. Come on. You go to great lengths to explain what ABL is and how it works but when you explain why it's needed you say to prevent the TV from going into meltdown mode. Meltdown mode? I doubt Samsung or Panasonic or LG has Meltdown as a possible concern with any of their plasmas. What would actually happen if you could bypass ABL? Is there some circuitry that is going to fry or fail in some way? Is something really going to melt? If this concern is inherent in the plasma technology I must admit that I don't recall hearing about it until a few years ago, certainly not the in the mid to late 90"s.
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post #2557 of 12505 Old 04-14-2013, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by jackobots View Post

Well, I still love the tv, but I realize it has not been designed to perfectly handle the additional brightness the panel provides. I see the pops, some flickering, and overly white facial tones for example. Plus, I'm really curious about the Z60 panel...I'll try to explain why.

When you set the F8500 contrast to 95 or 100 and let Direct tv enter the screen saver mode, with the Direc tv simple floating across the screen, there is a huge white halo around the symbol...which I believe is a reflection. The reflection is greater on this tv than any other I've seen....maybe because of it's additional brightness and contrast. I think that may be the underling reason for the problems we are seeing.

By eliminating the gas layer like Panasonic has done with the Z60 panel, I have a feeling the reflection may also be eliminated, resulting in a much more stable picture, and possibly cleaner better defined as well.

The F8500 is the best tv I've owned (including the dull VT50), but it does have some issues. The Z60 may be better...and since it is not available yet, and my return window is closing, my curiosity is too much for me to handle, so I'm going to send it back...for now. I can always get another one in a month or so : )

You said it is the best panel ever! Period! Or words to that effect. Or do I have the wrong person?
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post #2558 of 12505 Old 04-14-2013, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by airgas1998 View Post

Pulled the trigger on an 64f8500....

still very early in the game(less than 24hrs) so i'll provide a brief synopsis on what i'm seeing.

the good: very bright panel just incredible for a pdp, I have a very bright LR, and this set has know problems punching through the high ambient light. the blacks do however wash out a bit, but not to severe. nice sleek design I have it wall mounted, and it looks very nice. the 64" stand is also nice if that is your thing, but my god could they of may it any wider. I can see this being an issue for people. great contrast and "very good" blacks(sorry I've owned an Sharp Elite). VP seems to do well, and of course sharpness is top notch. need to adj sharpness I have set at 0, but if I can increase a notch or two w/out introducing ringing I shall. I like a very sharp image. the built in speakers are surprising not bad for what they are. I utilize a ht, but for casual use they are very doable. the assembly quality is very good fit and finish seem to be very well done.

the bad or should I say disappointment: there is a buzz same directional buzz as I have heard on all Samsung pdp panels since the B series. although I will say it is not as severe as the past sets and is tolerable with the set on at normal listening levels or ht on it's simply not an issue. only when muted or very low volumes. ABL-"pops" yep there present like others setting of 74 contrast alleviates it. so far my most noticeable moment was with commercial material.as of now it's tolerable it happens every now and then not all the time. like Ken and others have mentioned it is weird on some bright material it doesn't trigger it and other times it does. this is strange. now for my biggest issue, and a surprising one I have a pinkish vertical band primarily in the middle of the display from top to bottom. it is most noticeable of course with light material. it doesn't stick out at you to bad and if it doesn't get worse it's tolerable. nobody, but us videophile's or analphile's are going to pick it out.

overall 1st impression I give it a B+ Samsung did a pretty good job with this one. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend this panel to anyone, especially if you have a bright area.

edit: forgot to mention IR so far has been nonexistent.

OMG, with all due respect, you've had the set less than 24 hours, spent ~$4000 on it, and you're summary judgement is a "B+?"

At this juncture it seems to me you should be head over heels in love and maybe only down the road discover issues that otherwise might temper your infatuation/enthusiasm. My friend, this is not a good sign. I know because it was essentially the same reaction I had when I bought my 51" F8500. After a good deal of agonizing and buyer's remorse I decided to send mine back and wait for the 55" VT60. While you still have the opportunity you may want to at least consider whether you believe this is a long term keeper or if you'd like to compare it to the VT60 or even the ZT60.

I feel strongly both ways!
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post #2559 of 12505 Old 04-14-2013, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

I know you guys really know what you're talking about and I ALWAYS come here for information but, but ,but. Come on. You go to great lengths to explain what ABL is and how it works but when you explain why it's needed you say to prevent the TV from going into meltdown mode. Meltdown mode? I doubt Samsung or Panasonic or LG has Meltdown as a possible concern with any of their plasmas. What would actually happen if you could bypass ABL? Is there some circuitry that is going to fry or fail in some way? Is something really going to melt? If this concern is inherent in the plasma technology I must admit that I don't recall hearing about it until a few years ago, certainly not the in the mid to late 90"s.

Its only beren introduced "recently" as far as I know.....as far as "meltdown" that is a term I saw posted in another thread at AVS....But basically ABL stabalizes power consumption , if there were no ABL then power consumption would go unchecked and I would think "could" lead to overheating and thuis "meltdown" .......I am trying to not get too far into details as this is OT and would and has derailed this thread a few times........

Im not sure I went to "great lengths", it was poorly written sentance at best.....
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Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

You said it is the best panel ever! Period! Or words to that effect. Or do I have the wrong person?

You are not mistaken wink.gif lol
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post #2560 of 12505 Old 04-14-2013, 01:22 PM
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Ok, I'm now watching the masters on an Samsung led and your "brightness pops" are there. I think you need to consider the possibility that its not the tv. During panning shots of the sky, following the ball, it is clear that the lighting and color of the sky change. I don't think it's the f8500 because I see it on an led. Maybe we're getting a little paranoid
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post #2561 of 12505 Old 04-14-2013, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by AuralSex View Post

OMG, with all due respect, you've had the set less than 24 hours, spent ~$4000 on it, and you're summary judgement is a "B+?"

At this juncture it seems to me you should be head over heels in love and maybe only down the road discover issues that otherwise might temper your infatuation/enthusiasm. My friend, this is not a good sign. I know because it was essentially the same reaction I had when I bought my 51" F8500. After a good deal of agonizing and buyer's remorse I decided to send mine back and wait for the 55" VT60. While you still have the opportunity you may want to at least consider whether you believe this is a long term keeper or if you'd like to compare it to the VT60 or even the ZT60.

wait what? so if problems come up with the VT\ZT and people give it a B+ they should return it automatically becasue they are not going gaga over it? I think we all have different degrees of grades and we are looking for.your head over heals comment did make me biggrin.gif though thanks wink.gif I dont think Ive ever been "head over heals" with anything Ive bought....
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post #2562 of 12505 Old 04-14-2013, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by GibsonES300 View Post

Ok, I'm now watching the masters on an Samsung led and your "brightness pops" are there. I think you need to consider the possibility that its not the tv. During panning shots of the sky, following the ball, it is clear that the lighting and color of the sky change. I don't think it's the f8500 because I see it on an led. Maybe we're getting a little paranoid

I can confirm this and I think I said it the other day, that sometimes the source is the culprit......BUT in saying that, I think people may be getting confused with what people are describing as the actual problem and what is "normal" or due to the source.......There have been a few descriptions of the same issue and people keep changing the word they sue to describe it......

I can remember last year during a PGA event it was getting dark, yet they still had a great picture, they then adjusted the aperture (I think) and it showed how much of a difference there was between what the camera was showing and what it actually looked like at the event.....
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post #2563 of 12505 Old 04-14-2013, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by AuralSex View Post

OMG, with all due respect, you've had the set less than 24 hours, spent ~$4000 on it, and you're summary judgement is a "B+?"

At this juncture it seems to me you should be head over heels in love and maybe only down the road discover issues that otherwise might temper your infatuation/enthusiasm. My friend, this is not a good sign. I know because it was essentially the same reaction I had when I bought my 51" F8500. After a good deal of agonizing and buyer's remorse I decided to send mine back and wait for the 55" VT60. While you still have the opportunity you may want to at least consider whether you believe this is a long term keeper or if you'd like to compare it to the VT60 or even the ZT60.

um...I have yet to see a perfect set. it's simply not going to happen. the primary reason I chose the f8500 over the vt/zt60 (in which probably will be better in some areas) is the overall panel brightness. I get unrestricted horizontal viewing angles and lcd like brightness. sounds like I did my homework for "MY" situation. do you dig what I'm saying?smile.gif

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post #2564 of 12505 Old 04-14-2013, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by barth2k View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bargervais View Post

Does anyone know I'm considering the VT60 or the F8500 the 8500 has a quad core does the VT have the same? I'm thinking the quad core doesn't make the set better but it's needed to run all the smart TV stuff that the duel core couldn't keep up with. please let me know if I'm thinking correctly here.

First, number of cores in two unknown CPUs means squat. I have a hex core Phenom. I'm pretty sure a quad or even dual core i7 will kick it to the curb on most tasks.

Second, yes, the processor from everything I've read is for the UI. doesn't do anything for your PQ.

Personally, I would love to be able to buy something with same PQ as 64f8500 and no 3D or smart features whatsoever for, oh, $500 less tongue.gif
I agree that the meaning of multiple core processors is squat, and they aren't involved in image processing. I also agree that all the "smart" stuff is marketing squat. 3D means squat too. biggrin.gif

I feel better now. cool.gif

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post #2565 of 12505 Old 04-14-2013, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by airgas1998 View Post

Pulled the trigger on an 64f8500....

still very early in the game(less than 24hrs) so i'll provide a brief synopsis on what i'm seeing.

the good: very bright panel just incredible for a pdp, I have a very bright LR, and this set has know problems punching through the high ambient light. the blacks do however wash out a bit, but not to severe. nice sleek design I have it wall mounted, and it looks very nice. the 64" stand is also nice if that is your thing, but my god could they of may it any wider. I can see this being an issue for people. great contrast and "very good" blacks(sorry I've owned an Sharp Elite). VP seems to do well, and of course sharpness is top notch. need to adj sharpness I have set at 0, but if I can increase a notch or two w/out introducing ringing I shall. I like a very sharp image. the built in speakers are surprising not bad for what they are. I utilize a ht, but for casual use they are very doable. the assembly quality is very good fit and finish seem to be very well done.

the bad or should I say disappointment: there is a buzz same directional buzz as I have heard on all Samsung pdp panels since the B series. although I will say it is not as severe as the past sets and is tolerable with the set on at normal listening levels or ht on it's simply not an issue. only when muted or very low volumes. ABL-"pops" yep there present like others setting of 74 contrast alleviates it. so far my most noticeable moment was with commercial material.as of now it's tolerable it happens every now and then not all the time. like Ken and others have mentioned it is weird on some bright material it doesn't trigger it and other times it does. this is strange. now for my biggest issue, and a surprising one I have a pinkish vertical band primarily in the middle of the display from top to bottom. it is most noticeable of course with light material. it doesn't stick out at you to bad and if it doesn't get worse it's tolerable. nobody, but us videophile's or analphile's are going to pick it out.

overall 1st impression I give it a B+ Samsung did a pretty good job with this one. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend this panel to anyone, especially if you have a bright area.

edit: forgot to mention IR so far has been nonexistent.


Did you buy this yesterday at Best Buy in Des Moines? It sounds like you are the guy that was looking at the f8000 and f8500 when I was there looking at them. Anyway after you have had the TV for a day would you recommend the f8500 over the f8000 and for what reasons. Thanks for your review.
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post #2566 of 12505 Old 04-14-2013, 02:17 PM
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me too

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post #2567 of 12505 Old 04-14-2013, 02:27 PM
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me too
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post #2568 of 12505 Old 04-14-2013, 02:33 PM
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Does the f8500 have Amazon app and hbo go in the smart hub

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post #2569 of 12505 Old 04-14-2013, 02:33 PM
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3D means squat too. biggrin.gif

I could hardly disagree more. smile.gif

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post #2570 of 12505 Old 04-14-2013, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by bargervais View Post

Does the f8500 have Amazon app and job go in the smart hub

Yes has Amazon Instant Prime and HBO Go. I can't get Amazon Cloud PLayer to work though, even though it appears that it should and did, in fact, work on my ES7500.

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post #2571 of 12505 Old 04-14-2013, 02:40 PM
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I agree that the meaning of multiple core processors is squat, and they aren't involved in image processing. I also agree that all the "smart" stuff is marketing squat. 3D means squat too. biggrin.gif

I feel better now. cool.gif

LOL Love this place I think that's what I was trying to say the TV's need a stronger processors just to keep up with the demands that are on these set's

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post #2572 of 12505 Old 04-14-2013, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by AuralSex View Post

OMG, with all due respect, you've had the set less than 24 hours, spent ~$4000 on it, and you're summary judgement is a "B+?"

At this juncture it seems to me you should be head over heels in love and maybe only down the road discover issues that otherwise might temper your infatuation/enthusiasm. My friend, this is not a good sign. I know because it was essentially the same reaction I had when I bought my 51" F8500. After a good deal of agonizing and buyer's remorse I decided to send mine back and wait for the 55" VT60. While you still have the opportunity you may want to at least consider whether you believe this is a long term keeper or if you'd like to compare it to the VT60 or even the ZT60.

This kind of sounds like you're trying to project your unhappiness on to airgas. Have you considered that the issues have been discussed so much, that it's easy to spot them (if present in the material) for someone that's just purchased the display?

Airgas is not one to delude himself and can see the pros and cons of every display. If you think you've bought a display without faults, you're just not looking hard enough. wink.gif
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post #2573 of 12505 Old 04-14-2013, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by GibsonES300 View Post

Ok, I'm now watching the masters on an Samsung led and your "brightness pops" are there. I think you need to consider the possibility that its not the tv. During panning shots of the sky, following the ball, it is clear that the lighting and color of the sky change. I don't think it's the f8500 because I see it on an led. Maybe we're getting a little paranoid

I think a camera that responds to light changes in a stepped fashion as opposed to a smooth response (and they do exist), can easily be mistaken for a fault of the display.

With that said, the hockey game that Robert and I isolated with a brief episode of popping, was not evident on the LED on playback. So I'd agree that not all popping is the fault of the 8500, but I suspect a good % of it is.
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post #2574 of 12505 Old 04-14-2013, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

This kind of sounds like you're trying to project your unhappiness on to airgas. Have you considered that the issues have been discussed so much, that it's easy to spot them (if present in the material) for someone that's just purchased the display?

Airgas is not one to delude himself and can see the pros and cons of every display. If you think you've bought a display without faults, you're just not looking hard enough. wink.gif
If so I certainly didn't mean for it to come off like that. I was just rather surprised at the luke warm evaluation he provided and wanted to be sure he at least considered waiting to see what the f8500's direct competition could offer. As he says he's using it in a brightly lit room perhaps the 8500 is the perfect solution for him.

I feel strongly both ways!
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post #2575 of 12505 Old 04-14-2013, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by AuralSex View Post

If so I certainly didn't mean for it to come off like that. I was just rather surprised at the luke warm evaluation he provided and wanted to be sure he at least considered waiting to see what the f8500's direct competition could offer. As he says he's using it in a brightly lit room perhaps the 8500 is the perfect solution for him.

last time I checked a B+ evaluation was rather good, compared to luke warm.wink.gif

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post #2576 of 12505 Old 04-14-2013, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by airgas1998 View Post

last time I checked a B+ evaluation was rather good, compared to luke warm.wink.gif

You should have said A-
smile.gif

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post #2577 of 12505 Old 04-14-2013, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by bargervais View Post

You should have said A-
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unless it was A+++++++++++++++++++++++ I dont think it would ahve mattered
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post #2578 of 12505 Old 04-14-2013, 05:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by airgas1998 View Post

um...I have yet to see a perfect set. it's simply not going to happen. the primary reason I chose the f8500 over the vt/zt60 (in which probably will be better in some areas) is the overall panel brightness. I get unrestricted horizontal viewing angles and lcd like brightness. sounds like I did my homework for "MY" situation. do you dig what I'm saying?smile.gif
I think its a great attitude, you can generate a good felling about something better if you do not expect perfection wink.gif

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post #2579 of 12505 Old 04-14-2013, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I think a camera that responds to light changes in a stepped fashion as opposed to a smooth response (and they do exist), can easily be mistaken for a fault of the display.

With that said, the hockey game that Robert and I isolated with a brief episode of popping, was not evident on the LED on playback. So I'd agree that not all popping is the fault of the 8500, but I suspect a good % of it is.

I think popping is different because the screen brightens when it should be dimming. It is unexpected so it looks wrong.
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Originally Posted by airgas1998 View Post

last time I checked a B+ evaluation was rather good, compared to luke warm.wink.gif

But now I'll never get into Harvard. You've ruined my life, you jerk frown.gif
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post #2580 of 12505 Old 04-14-2013, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

unless it was A+++++++++++++++++++++++ I dont think it would ahve mattered

I really need to ahve this TV my C7000 is going on Craig's list tomorrow anyone with a dark room would love it it's not so good in a bright room.

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