Official Samsung PNxxF8500 Series Discussion Thread [No Street Price Talk] - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 12603 Old 03-15-2013, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
Cleveland Plasma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Posts: 12,280
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 466 Post(s)
Liked: 640
Well its official now. Just got word they are in. Since no official thread was started I thought I would do the honors. Chad will be here soon to do his things, pics to come asap !!
.



Review: Samsung PN-64F8500 plasma


When I arrived at Cleveland Plasma to check out this latest beauty from Samsung, Chris could barely contain himself as he told me of the excitement the F8500 has been generating online. Big improvements over last year's E series were expected, and specifics were just beginning to trickle in. I was appreciative of Samsung's previous lines, though I admit feeling somewhat let down at the E series' limited brightness and lack of substantial improvement over the D series. Chris said it looked like the F series was going to change all that, and he was right on the money.

This is an attractive TV, with a narrow pewter bezel, slim profile, and a tiny, top mounted Skype camera. The remote is a small but solid-feeling clickable touchpad device.

The screen soaks up ambient light very well. With very bright ceiling lights on, reflections were dark and well suppressed. I could see myself looking at the screen with some effort, but my reflection appeared to be a mostly featureless silhouette.

I could hear a small amount of buzzing very close to the screen, though by about a 6 foot distance the whirring of a Blu Ray player masked the slight buzzing with most content. Some bright test patterns, like the ANSI checkerboard pattern, generated a little more buzzing that was audible from 8 or 9 feet. This can vary from one set to the next, but it is safe to say it will not be an issue on this sample.

The viewing angle is perfect from side to side, and as long as you don't stand close to a F8500 that is on the floor you shouldn't be bothered by any dimming in the vertical direction.

Before calibration:

Standard

The F8500 initially defaults to Standard mode, which looked a bit etched and artificially enhanced. Pans had the uber-smooth soap opera feel, though at times motion broke up and appeared choppy. Despite the fact that still images looked excessively grainy, it appeared that strong noise reduction was at work with moving images, making them smoother but somewhat smeared. The picture lacked stability, with brightness pumping and flashing apparent at times. Colors were vibrant and fairly pleasing, though not quite lifelike and natural. Whites appeared bright, bluish, and somewhat flat; and brightly lit faces were overexposed and suffered from a caked on makeup look. Deep blacks and fairly good shadow detail hinted of good things to come, but this display's as-delivered state hardly puts it's best foot forward.

Relax

Relax was quite similar to Standard, though without the overexposed look. Colors popped and skin tones were not as offensive as one might expect, though the overall look was more subdued and “doctored” than realistic.

Movie

Colors, which were respectable in the previous modes, improved quite a bit by switching over to Movie mode. They appeared much more realistic, though perhaps a bit pale in overall balance. In addition, the picture gained brightness and pop, and realism took a leap forward. However, depth could be a bit lacking, and whites had a bit of an off-white or greenish tinge. At times, I thought I glimpsed hints of the dirty screen effect, in which bright panning objects appeared smudged or dirty until they stop moving. Though to a much smaller degree than in the two previous modes, graininess with still images and glazed over motion were visible. Stability, contrast, and shadow detail were impressive. It appeared that Movie mode has some great qualities, though it was not quite seductively rich or lifelike yet.

Dynamic

Ugh... With it's cartoonish colors and gaudy whites, Dynamic wore thin in a hurry. However, it was bright and punchy, which will appeal to some at least in the short term.

Tweaks

A few simple things can be done by anyone to bring out significantly more performance in Movie mode. Turning sharpness down to half or less of it's starting position will reduce graininess, and with 1080 HD sources changing the Picture Size from 16:9 to Screen Fit will improve sharpness and eliminate overscan. In Picture options, changing Color Tone from Warm2 to Warm1 alleviates the off white and greenish tinge, and turning off the other various “enhancements” found there will increase the accuracy of the picture. Finally, in the advanced settings, reducing gamma to -1 eliminated a slightly flat sensation. Later, after examining the measurements, I was surprised at this since gamma was already quite high, but I did feel it made an improvement short of a more complete calibration with the aid of test equipment. After making these simple changes, without the aid of test patterns of any kind, the F8500's performance improved significantly. Thus configured and viewed in a light controlled room, the F8500 is a real head turner.

Black levels

The richness of blacks and contrast is arguably the toughest test for any display, and traditionally a good plasma will outperform a conventional LED in that regard. While last year's E series took a timid step forward, there is no doubt the F8500's blacks take a more confident leap ahead. In Movie mode's picture options, a selection called Black optimizer does seem to make the blacks darker when set to Dark room. In that setting, the black level, which appeared excellent before, improved even further; coaxing what appears to be state of the art black level performance out of the F8500. Do the blacks appear illuminated with the lights out in the Dark room setting? Yes; not even the last run of Elite Kuros could claim otherwise. However, the F8500 is so good that nearly any significant picture content made the blacks appear extremely or even totally devoid of light, which is a significant accomplishment. Bright objects appear to come out of a velvety, inky black background. However, the extra darkness comes at the price of stability. Later testing revealed that Dark room caused dynamic fluctuation of the blacks, so it will be a judgment call on whether to take advantage of that circuitry.

Black levels were measured with a C6 meter profiled with a Jeti 1211 reference spectro to the F8500.

Black level measured .0069 fL with Black optimizer off and a 1080P/60 source. With the Black optimizer set to Dark room or Auto, it measured .0025 fL. With 1080P/24 and cinema smooth on, black level was .0072/.0025 fL, which is not significantly different. With Black Optimizer set to either auto or Dark room, Movie mode's modified ANSI contrast ratio was 7436:1, at 34.95/.0047 fL. That was further evidence of some black level floating, as the black level on a dark screen was significantly lower than black level of the checkerboard. Because of this fluctuating black level in the Dark room setting, I made the decision to do the calibration in Movie mode with the Black optimizer off. As calibrated, with Black optimizer off, the modified ANSI contrast ratio measured 6034:1, at 38.62/.0064 fL.

Calibration

After going into the service menu, I opened up the Cal-Day and Cal-Night modes, which are normally not present in the TV's menu. In a departure from previous Samsungs, these modes, before calibration, produced one of the worst, most peculiar pictures I've seen yet on a modern plasma. After resetting some curiously strange settings, things looked much, much better.

The F8500 is a light output heavyweight, breaking records in my experience for large plasmas. Light output could have been as high as 58 fL after calibration in Movie mode, though I backed that down to about 51 fL after viewing some program material. Cal-Day could be calibrated up to an astonishing 84.1 fL, but otherwise behaved similarly to Movie mode once the proper groundwork was laid. The light output with a 100% full white screen was a super strong 23.4 fL. Cal-Day could reach well into the 40's with the ANSI checkerboard pattern, which is a record in my experience. These are wonderful numbers for hockey fans, because the F8500 will maintain brightness better when showing a bright rink than any other plasma I know of. It's also great news for those who have brighter rooms, because the F8500 will remain punchy when other plasmas begin to look bland.

Calibration of Movie mode was straightforward, until I got to the CMS adjustment. In the past year, thanks to advances in software capability, I've transitioned from calibrating only fully saturated colors to focusing more on 75% saturations at 75% luminance, which gives a better approximation of real world picture content. With the F8500, it's just not possible to accurately calibrate the CMS at 75% saturation; it's color gamut shrinks as saturation is reduced. I ended up targeting somewhere in between the old standard of 100% saturation/75% luminance and 75% saturation/75% luminance. What I got was a perfectly acceptable compromise, with all color saturation delta errors below about 2, but with slightly pale shades below full purity.

Unlike the E series, the F8500 goes blue the more load is placed on the ABL circuitry by progressively larger measurement windows. This is subjectively more pleasing than the more earthy tone the E series exhibited with bright scenes. In my estimation, good window sizes to use for calibration seem to be either 5% conventional windows or approximately 18% APL windows.

With a 1080P/24 signal and Cinema Smooth engaged, my meter synced at around 96 Hz.

Cinema Smooth caused a significant shift in gamma and white balance, adding an average of 3 dE to the grayscale run. Because of this, it may be desirable to either send a Blu Ray signal to a dedicated input, put up with some motion judder by leaving Cinema Smooth off if you're not much of a movie watcher, or calibrate with Cinema Smooth on and let TV content be a bit less accurate.

After calibration:

How does the F8500 look after all the tweaks have been made? Majestic, with bright scenes oodling pop and excitement like I've never seen on a large plasma. It's textures are smooth, devoid of graininess. Colors look very lifelike, but on the polite side of accurate. Blacks and contrast are excellent, though not a substitute for the late, great Kuro king. The black bars are just visible with letterbox movies, but only in a dark room. Because of the way bright objects change our perception, the bars tend to be more visible with dark movie scenes than bright ones. Shadow detail is superb, looking correct in intensity and neutral in color. Resolution and sharpness are as good as I've seen.

I've calibrated many Panasonic 65VT50s, with the last one being just a couple of days ago. Though I did not have one available for a side by side comparison, I know it extremely well and can give impressions of how it and the F8500 compare.

Compared to the VT50 calibrated in the normal fashion of ISF Day using mid panel brightness, the F8500 is punchier in bright scenes. It is also a bit smoother, especially up close. The VT50 has slightly superior color accuracy, though it looks a bit more “hot” and colored with skin tones than the F8500's more relaxed color palette. If you are easily offended by the sunburnt look skin tones have on many displays, the F8500's less saturated but still seductive colors will be like a soothing balm on your eyes. The VT50's blacks are superior, though subjectively they appear extremely close. Dark movie scenes in dark rooms may show the VT50's slightly superior blacks. Motion quality will depend on if you use Cinema Smooth or not, but I prefer the VT50's motion overall. The F8500's edge in brightness makes it superior in slightly brighter rooms or if you just like brighter images.

The F8500 is a winner, with special appeal to lovers of bright and punchy images. It's color was very natural and easy on the eyes, and over all it's performance keeps pace with the very best.

Samsung 64F8500 movie.pdf 785k .pdf file

Chad B
.
Dougofthenorth and sheshechic like this.
Cleveland Plasma is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 12603 Old 03-15-2013, 09:12 AM
Senior Member
 
440forpower's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 378
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks can't wait to hear the reviews
440forpower is offline  
post #3 of 12603 Old 03-15-2013, 08:01 PM
Advanced Member
 
hotskins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 515
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Thankyou so much! Im excited to hear what Samsung has improved
hotskins is offline  
post #4 of 12603 Old 03-15-2013, 08:26 PM
Newbie
 
daedalusen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I'm anxious to hear initial impressions . I'm ready to pull the trigger on either the zt60 or f8500.
daedalusen is offline  
post #5 of 12603 Old 03-15-2013, 08:35 PM
Advanced Member
 
janos666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Hungary
Posts: 594
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Regardless of Panasonic's efforts with the ZT60, I am personally more curious about this display (even though I would guess the ZT60 will be better on the absolute scale and may be win in performance/price as well).

"DIY certified hobby-calibrator" (based on ChadB's "warning signs" list
janos666 is offline  
post #6 of 12603 Old 03-15-2013, 08:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sheshechic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Suffolk, VA
Posts: 2,850
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 90
Anticipation!!!!

sheshechic is offline  
post #7 of 12603 Old 03-15-2013, 08:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ljmart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: TN / Clwtr FL
Posts: 1,072
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 175
sweet! cannot wait to hear, and see the pics... hope you're havin fun, and bring on the good news:)

Samsung PN51F8500. Marantz SR5008. Oppo BDP 103D. Sony BDP S5100. Emp Tek E55TIB LR, E5CIB, E55WIB. Sennheiser Momentum. Sennheiser 598.
ljmart is offline  
post #8 of 12603 Old 03-15-2013, 10:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ljmart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: TN / Clwtr FL
Posts: 1,072
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 175
did it come with stand attached?

Samsung PN51F8500. Marantz SR5008. Oppo BDP 103D. Sony BDP S5100. Emp Tek E55TIB LR, E5CIB, E55WIB. Sennheiser Momentum. Sennheiser 598.
ljmart is offline  
post #9 of 12603 Old 03-16-2013, 06:59 AM
Advanced Member
 
Pinger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 608
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Finally we're going to get the real scoop :-)
Thanks Chris!!
Pinger is offline  
post #10 of 12603 Old 03-16-2013, 07:02 AM
Advanced Member
 
steady teddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Macomb, Michigan
Posts: 669
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljmart View Post

did it come with stand attached?

I'm interested to know this as well.
steady teddy is offline  
post #11 of 12603 Old 03-16-2013, 07:21 AM
Senior Member
 
zAndy12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Scunthorpe, Nth Lincs, UK
Posts: 378
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 12
What screen size have you got in?
zAndy12 is offline  
post #12 of 12603 Old 03-16-2013, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
Cleveland Plasma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Posts: 12,280
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 466 Post(s)
Liked: 640
Cleveland Plasma is offline  
post #13 of 12603 Old 03-16-2013, 09:13 AM
AVS Special Member
 
barth2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,271
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 90 Post(s)
Liked: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

PN64F8500, we only review the big screen as in the past the smaller 51" does not have as dark black levels.

I like your style!
barth2k is offline  
post #14 of 12603 Old 03-16-2013, 09:41 AM
Advanced Member
 
sonyfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 577
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
When are you posting the review?
I'm refreshing this page like crazy and there are no other reviews anywhere.
sonyfan is offline  
post #15 of 12603 Old 03-16-2013, 09:42 AM
Member
 
evoll88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 70
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 25
^Yeah me to cuz i wanna order another tv sooon.
evoll88 is offline  
post #16 of 12603 Old 03-16-2013, 09:47 AM
Advanced Member
 
sonyfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 577
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by evoll88 View Post

^Yeah me to cuz i wanna order another tv sooon.

If Cleveland Plasma is waiting to get that 100 hours break in before calibrating and testing I'm going to scream!tongue.gif
sonyfan is offline  
post #17 of 12603 Old 03-16-2013, 09:50 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Slickman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,193
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 19
I'm also refreshing like crazy, can't wait!
Slickman is offline  
post #18 of 12603 Old 03-16-2013, 09:51 AM
Member
 
evoll88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 70
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 25
Lol you will prob hear me screaming also lol. They shouldnt need to break it in since i read with new plasma's need no break in time???
evoll88 is offline  
post #19 of 12603 Old 03-16-2013, 10:24 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ljmart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: TN / Clwtr FL
Posts: 1,072
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

PN64F8500, we only review the big screen as in the past the smaller 51" does not have as dark black levels.

i've read that before about the 51" and i'm very curious why? logically it doesn't make sense to me. thank you!

Samsung PN51F8500. Marantz SR5008. Oppo BDP 103D. Sony BDP S5100. Emp Tek E55TIB LR, E5CIB, E55WIB. Sennheiser Momentum. Sennheiser 598.
ljmart is offline  
post #20 of 12603 Old 03-16-2013, 10:49 AM
Advanced Member
 
sonyfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 577
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by evoll88 View Post

Lol you will prob hear me screaming also lol. They shouldnt need to break it in since i read with new plasma's need no break in time???

I doubt any plasma tv is a finished product when new out of the box.
Those phoshers need to 'age' and that takes time.
sonyfan is offline  
post #21 of 12603 Old 03-16-2013, 12:52 PM
Member
 
dimitrios007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 54
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Ok i gues within a week we will get the review finally.
Hmmm so mister Cleveland Plasma, what is your first impression from the pn64f8500?
dimitrios007 is offline  
post #22 of 12603 Old 03-16-2013, 01:12 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
Cleveland Plasma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Posts: 12,280
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 466 Post(s)
Liked: 640
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonyfan View Post

If Cleveland Plasma is waiting to get that 100 hours break in before calibrating and testing I'm going to scream!tongue.gif
That is correct we will have to break it in. It will be a bit for the review as Chad is out of town frown.gif
.
.
Cleveland Plasma is offline  
post #23 of 12603 Old 03-16-2013, 01:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ljmart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: TN / Clwtr FL
Posts: 1,072
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

That is correct breaking in, it will be a bit for the review as Chad is out of town frown.gif

frown.gif a while for review.... what about first impressions?? was stand attached? thx in advance!

Samsung PN51F8500. Marantz SR5008. Oppo BDP 103D. Sony BDP S5100. Emp Tek E55TIB LR, E5CIB, E55WIB. Sennheiser Momentum. Sennheiser 598.
ljmart is offline  
post #24 of 12603 Old 03-16-2013, 06:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sheshechic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Suffolk, VA
Posts: 2,850
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonyfan View Post

If Cleveland Plasma is waiting to get that 100 hours break in before calibrating and testing I'm going to scream!tongue.gif
That is correct we will have to break it in. It will be a bit for the review as Chad is out of town frown.gif
.
.

This seems to be a trend for the start of the new year. wink.gif

sheshechic is offline  
post #25 of 12603 Old 03-17-2013, 01:20 PM
Advanced Member
 
sonyfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 577
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Good grief are we ever going to get a new owner review or a pro review?
There are zero so far, very frustrating to say the least. eek.gif
sonyfan is offline  
post #26 of 12603 Old 03-17-2013, 01:29 PM
Member
 
evoll88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 70
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 25
They probably dont look as good as advertised and are afraid to be whipped by samsung for saying so lol.
evoll88 is offline  
post #27 of 12603 Old 03-17-2013, 05:57 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
DavidHir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,427
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 175 Post(s)
Liked: 431
It's probably a good idea to break these in for a couple of hundred hours. Since they just came in a few days ago, you're talking by mid to late next week for a review if Chad is available. I believe Robert Zohn mentioned they would review their model this coming weekend.

DavidHir is offline  
post #28 of 12603 Old 03-17-2013, 08:39 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Chad B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Piqua, OH
Posts: 2,084
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 76 Post(s)
Liked: 412
Goal is to have the review up Tues or Wed of next week.
sheshechic likes this.

ISF/THX calibrator, HDTVbyChadB
Jeti 1211

Latest reviews:
Sony 65X950BLG 65UB9800Samsung UN65HU8550UN65HU9000, UN85HU8550, LG 55EC9300
Chad B is online now  
post #29 of 12603 Old 03-18-2013, 12:17 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Slickman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,193
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Possibly tomorrow? Woohoo can't wait! I want to replace my 55LHX with a 60"+ plasma.
Slickman is offline  
post #30 of 12603 Old 03-18-2013, 12:21 PM
Advanced Member
 
sonyfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 577
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Chad B posted on a Sunday night "Tues or Wed of next week" does he mean this week or next?
sonyfan is offline  
Reply Plasma Flat Panel Displays

Tags
Samsung Pn51f8500 51 Inch 3d Smart Plasma Hdtv
Gear in this thread - Pn51f8500 by PriceGrabber.com

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off