720p panels in 2013 not acceptable! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 52 Old 03-26-2013, 03:12 AM - Thread Starter
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I have been researching about 2013 models and I found out that in the dawn of 4K, TV makers still produce 720p entry level models. 720p plasmas have the resolution of 1024x768 and LED TVs have 1366x768. What's the matter with TV makers? Don't you think that 1080p panels should be the minimum, especially today when the prices are low compared to several years ago.
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post #2 of 52 Old 03-26-2013, 10:37 AM
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The new entry level 1080p plasmas are now selling around $649 - $729 on sale, and will probably drop at some point to $599. This is the same price range as the 720p models had been selling at. So makes since to just purchase one of the 1080p versions for best pic quality. But up until 2 years ago, the 720p models had a higher lines of resolution in the 50" category. Got a 51D490 for my sister's bonus room on sale and has very nice pic quality. Glad we got the last Samsung 720p series just before they lowered the resolution.
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post #3 of 52 Old 03-27-2013, 02:27 AM
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Probably Still making them because They have less issues than some of the lcds
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post #4 of 52 Old 03-27-2013, 07:12 AM
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I bought and returned a 40" 1080p LED because it looked like hot garbage and then bought a new 43" Samsung Plasma - 2013 model and it's 720p and looks great. Head and shoulders above the 1080p LED. Why not make a product that conforms to HD specs and beats the pants off inferior quality 1080p for an incredible price point? Seems reasonable to me. I can even watch my Blu-Rays at 1080p output on them. It's just scaled down but still looks incredible and very hard to differentiate at proper viewing distance.

Many people are just getting around to their first flat panel display in HD and the 720p panels offer a great budget alternative to get up to speed with a fantastic picture compared to their previous TV. This combined with the fact that the standard resolution for OTA/Cable/Satellite/Streaming is 720p/1080i, I don't think 1080p should be the minimum standard since it would drive price points up and nobody wants to make the cost to play more expensive for consumers or providers.

FULL HD is awesome, but not necessary to pass the consumer expectation when seen with their own eyes. (for now)

 

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post #5 of 52 Old 03-27-2013, 07:20 AM
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720p is good for the poorer nations out there. Majority of the TV channels in Asia are still in 4:3 standard definition.
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post #6 of 52 Old 03-27-2013, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Can you define poor nations? In Asia Japan and South Korea where most TV manufacturers are from, are not poor nations in any way.
Here's an other point: According to this map, all broadcasts are digital in Western Europe, but they still have SD channels. Wasn't the point of digital broadcasting to make HD more affordable and available?
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post #7 of 52 Old 03-27-2013, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HD Hockey Guy View Post

I bought and returned a 40" 1080p LED because it looked like hot garbage and then bought a new 43" Samsung Plasma - 2013 model and it's 720p and looks great. Head and shoulders above the 1080p LED. Why not make a product that conforms to HD specs and beats the pants off inferior quality 1080p for an incredible price point? Seems reasonable to me. I can even watch my Blu-Rays at 1080p output on them. It's just scaled down but still looks incredible and very hard to differentiate at proper viewing distance.

Many people are just getting around to their first flat panel display in HD and the 720p panels offer a great budget alternative to get up to speed with a fantastic picture compared to their previous TV. This combined with the fact that the standard resolution for OTA/Cable/Satellite/Streaming is 720p/1080i, I don't think 1080p should be the minimum standard since it would drive price points up and nobody wants to make the cost to play more expensive for consumers or providers.

FULL HD is awesome, but not necessary to pass the consumer expectation when seen with their own eyes. (for now)


At most viewing distances, it's very difficult for the human eye to differentiate between different HD resolutions, especially with smaller screen sizes. The real issue with 720p plasma's are their larger pixel size, not their ability to render fine detail. These larger pixels can create what is referred to as a screen door effect which can be distracting, but is dependent on the size of the screen, the viewing distance and each individual's perception of the anomaly.


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post #8 of 52 Old 03-27-2013, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
720p


This is
NOT
what HDTV is,
and this is
NOT
OKAY.
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post #9 of 52 Old 03-27-2013, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon! View Post

This is
NOT
what HDTV is,
and this is
NOT
OKAY.


rolleyes.gif



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post #10 of 52 Old 03-27-2013, 01:13 PM
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I'm not sure if the same holds true today but my 50" 2005 native 720p PDP seems to render a brighter image w/more pop to it, than my 60" 2007 native 1080p PDP.
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post #11 of 52 Old 03-27-2013, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9179mhb View Post

I'm not sure if the same holds true today but my 50" 2005 native 720p PDP seems to render a brighter image w/more pop to it, than my 60" 2007 native 1080p PDP.

On some sets, a larger pixel configuration may produce slightly higher peak brightness levels. I have a 720p PDP and it is almost as bright as my 1080p LCD.


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post #12 of 52 Old 03-27-2013, 04:15 PM
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Leon have you seen the motion blur on lcd/led? I had a samsung d630 with 1080 and the motion blur was terrible along with off angle washout.
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post #13 of 52 Old 03-27-2013, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Vic12345 View Post

Leon have you seen the motion blur on lcd/led? I had a samsung d630 with 1080 and the motion blur was terrible along with off angle washout.


Definitely. I'd make that sacrifice if the 1080p alternative had inferior screen uniformity, viewing angles, motion handling etc.

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post #14 of 52 Old 03-27-2013, 06:17 PM
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The 720p plasmas from Samsung and LG do indeed tend to be brighter and have more pop than some of the 1080p models. And they do look great with OTA TV and Blu Ray movies. I am just disappointed they lowered the resolution in the 50 inch category. The D450/490 series from Samsung was very good and the last before they lowered the lines of resolution in the E series.
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post #15 of 52 Old 03-27-2013, 09:09 PM
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No problem at all with 1366x768 as that is around what almost all TV shows are broadcast in as well as most streaming video content. Plasma's 1024x768 with its rectangular pixels though is an abomination.
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post #16 of 52 Old 03-27-2013, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrkdilkington View Post

No problem at all with 1366x768 as that is around what almost all TV shows are broadcast in as well as most streaming video content. Plasma's 1024x768 with its rectangular pixels though is an abomination.

Broadcasts are either 1920X1080 interlaced or 1280X720 progressive. Most streaming content is now available in 1920X1080p or 1280X720p. One way or the other, your TV, regardless of its resolution, will at some point have to do some scaling. All 42'' 720p PDP's are and always have been 1024X768, including the earlier highly rated Kuros. As far as the SDE is concerned, on the 50'' sets, including those with the higher horizontal rez, it is the larger vertical pixels that are the biggest culprit. Even on those sets, I have found that the effect, at similar distances, can be distracting. I believe this topic is getting redundant. It has been debated on numerous threads on this forum due to its subjectivity. It's plain and simple, if you are not happy with the larger pixels, or sit very close to your set, go with a 1080p.



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post #17 of 52 Old 03-27-2013, 11:54 PM - Thread Starter
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I didn't start this topic to discuss how good 720p plasma panels are, but to ask the manufacturers why do they still manufacture such TV's along with 1080p and 4K sets?
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post #18 of 52 Old 03-28-2013, 12:10 AM
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I don't care if they still manufacture 720p panels. No skin off my back.

For sets less than 40-50" (depending on viewing distance of course) they are fine. Especially if they will never be hooked up to 1080p sources. I have guest rooms that will likely never see a bluray player and by the time cable broadcasts are 1080p the TV will have probably died anyway so I might consider a 720p panel in that particular situation. Truthfully, 1080p panels are so cheap now and in such abundance that I'd probably go buy one of those still, and that's what I've done in the past in bedrooms/guest rooms/office.

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post #19 of 52 Old 03-28-2013, 05:03 AM
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Originally Posted by V_Pl_a View Post

Can you define poor nations? In Asia Japan and South Korea where most TV manufacturers are from, are not poor nations in any way.
Here's an other point: According to this map, all broadcasts are digital in Western Europe, but they still have SD channels. Wasn't the point of digital broadcasting to make HD more affordable and available?
Asia is a big continent. The richer are Japan, South Korea and Singapore.

The poorer nations are Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, Myanmar, Cambodia, Laos, China, Mongolia, India, Sri Lanka.......and all those middle east countries like Afghan. Standard definition is the norm in these countries.
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post #20 of 52 Old 03-28-2013, 05:34 AM
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I have a 50" TH50PX75U from 2007 that I use mainly just for baseball since I stream over MLB TV and it only plays at 720p anyway, AND I'm not worried about IR since it's not my main TV. Although I have some actual burn in on this TV I can't see it under normal viewing conditions. TV looks great and the only thing that REALLY stands out on it differently from my ST50 is the black level (at a far enough viewing distance of course). Like said above, if you just watch cable channels or mainly stream, 720p isn't a bad option.

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post #21 of 52 Old 03-28-2013, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by CheYC View Post

Like said above, if you just watch cable channels or mainly stream, 720p isn't a bad option.

I agree. However, due to it's greater bandwidth and higher visual resolution, Blu-Ray looks better then any other Hd format, even on a 720p PDP.



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post #22 of 52 Old 03-28-2013, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by V_Pl_a View Post

I didn't start this topic to discuss how good 720p plasma panels are, but to ask the manufacturers why do they still manufacture such TV's along with 1080p and 4K sets?

That's like asking why do car company's make low end cars.tongue.gif
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post #23 of 52 Old 03-29-2013, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by V_Pl_a View Post

I didn't start this topic to discuss how good 720p plasma panels are, but to ask the manufacturers why do they still manufacture such TV's along with 1080p and 4K sets?
Because people buy them .
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post #24 of 52 Old 03-30-2013, 02:17 PM
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To be quite honest, I cannot easily see the difference between 720p and 1080p, and I understand many average consumers want the performance benefit of a plasma but are prepared to sacrifice some resolution to spend less.
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post #25 of 52 Old 03-30-2013, 08:38 PM
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If you stand far back enough - a 50" w/ native 720p resolution will look exactly the same as a 1080p native 50" TV - around 10ft id say.

I also used to have a 50" TH50PX70U and people used to always think it was 1080p since i always fed it 720p content and it was around 9.5ft away from the couch. I now have a 60" ST50 and 720p would look terrible at this size, esp from where i'm sitting now (8.5ft)
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post #26 of 52 Old 03-30-2013, 10:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Maybe you are right that from several feet you hardly distinguish the difference between 1080p and 720p, but it's 2013, not 2003, so the plasma displays with 1024x768 resolution are not acceptable. It's called progress. XGA resolution is regression, not HD. Maybe we should petition TV makers to stop producing rectangular TV's with 1024x768 resolution.
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post #27 of 52 Old 03-31-2013, 02:53 AM
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LOL, good luck. They SELL. That is why they make them. Do you think they'd make them if they lost money selling them (plasma is not losing money, this is a myth...)

1024x768 is absolutely fine for almost every use given that at least 80% of the content I watch is still in 576p.

I fix TVs as a hobby, and about 80% of the plasmas I fix are 720p, they are the lower end models (mostly LG and Samsung), so I always put them against my 46" 1080p Panasonic, and I can see a difference, but damn, if you're 10 foot back you wouldn't notice it.
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post #28 of 52 Old 03-31-2013, 03:36 AM
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all the 32" LCD's I have in the bedrooms are 720P and they look more than fine for HD channels on DTV. I dont think anyone actually watches discs in the rooms, but again would look more than fine IMHO

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post #29 of 52 Old 03-31-2013, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by sonyfan View Post

That's like asking why do car company's make low end cars.tongue.gif
+1 well said
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post #30 of 52 Old 03-31-2013, 08:36 AM
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In the 50 inch category, I would no longer recommend 720p models since they lowered the resolution from 1366 to 1024. Especially since the entry level 1080p versions have come way down in price. The former 1366x768 versions produced a nice picture, but 1024 resolution on a 50 inch screen is just not as sharp.
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