Issues with new Panny ST60!!?? Shaking/wobbling picture??? The Shaky-Shake... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 43 Old 03-31-2013, 10:43 PM - Thread Starter
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First off let me start by stating that I have been reading reviews/threads here for years and just decided to finally join and add my experiences to the discussions. Many of you have been very helpful in providing valuable information as well as great calibration info for my other TV's. Special THANKS TO D-NICE for his calibrations settings for my VT30!!! Much appreciated D-Nice. Your originally posted threads with calibrations have served well for me.
Here we go: It is like a back and forth shake like you see when you type your password wrong when signing into a computer!

Some background leading up to my ST60 purchase. I apologize if it is long winded. I have a lot in my head that i want to get out about my experience with the new panny line....

I recently purchased the tc-p50S60 for use in my bedroom after having a couple pixels go out on a new Samsung pn50e530. I figured I would try the new panny plasma as I have their TC-P65VT30 in my family room. So after a few weeks I decide I am not happy with certain grainy noise of picture quality. I had cable techs here a few times trying to figure out why I was getting noise especially in black scenes. They found nothing wrong with signals but did agree the TV's had grainy noise and the black scenes had the phosphors twitching like crazy! I did notice this problem with both of my panny plasma televisions might I add. So after the cable guy left with no changes i decide to hook up my other sammy pn50e450 from my office(which is currently not in use) and notice I am not seeing the grainy noise I am seeing with the better panny plasma's. So I am confused and proceed the next day back to (yellow and blue) to return the S60 which i basically loved except for the noise and grainy noise on certain cable content. I thought it's PQ was awesome when receiving a great signal but left a lot to be desired with certain shows on hi def premium movie channels. Here I am dumbfounded how a TV can produce a picture so good and then so bad. So i tell the sales guy who i usually talk with this and he agrees that a cheaper 720p sammy can look better with lesser signals than a superior panny. He proceeds to tell me he wasn't that happy when he first purchased his GT30 but then over time loved it? So i thinking well someone at least understands what I am saying and i am not going crazy but this still doesn't all jive to me.

So at the store I almost buy the Samsung LED UNe6900 BC it was only 999 @ $1,000 off and I do have a few windows in my room which creates glare on my plasma's during the day. Then I almost decide on the NEW Samsung PN60F5300 and get an extra 10 inches in display for $300 more. I did have the e530 and loved it's PQ. Well as you already know i decide on the next model up Panny TC-P50ST60 partly because of the rave expectations everyone seems to have on this TV and partly BC the ST50 was so highly regarded, and partly BC most say the ST50 or ST60 is far superior to the Sammy E530 or F5300....Including all the Yellow and Blue Panasonic Fanboys. Panny's is really all those sales guys recommend!!

So I get TV setup at home and right out of the box the TV seems dull (as expected) in standard but different. So i put home theater picture setting on and a little better brightness but still something looks different to me. So later that night I watch African Cats in HD and the picture was to die for, absolutely stunning color and picture quality. So I am laying in bed saying to myself maybe this will work out. Do I have the winner?? So off to the next day and most programming only looks satisfactory good but there are those flashes of brilliance. Especially with scenes in high light environment withing the scene. The darker the scene withing the content the duller the PQ is! I am also still noticing the picture has a different look to it. It is hard to explain what it is. it almost looks a little fake to me, I think?? Is it so good that I am just not used to looking at a set like this. Hhhmmm? I'm not sure??

So this morning I put in a Blu-ray, Transformers Dark Side of the Moon for my children. Partly BC I want to see a Awesome picture show up! But then I notice there is still some grainy noise with the PQ which I have never really noticed with Blu-ray. So now I start thinking well I will use this TV for up to 60 days and if I am not happy I will pick out another one. What else can I do? I am really wanting to like the new panny Plasma's but I am not sure yet if I can live with it's shortcomings.

So here I am tonight I get back from party after celebrating Easter Sunday and I lay in bed with my family and watch a movie. Well I start seeing the picture shake and wobble.PQ looks pretty nice might I add. So I proceed to reset cable box and still same wobbling. I recheck that I don't have pixel orbiter on and see that it is on Auto and cannot be shut off. I am currently watching in custom mode but soon find out Home Theater has the same issues. I try shutting motion smoother off and still same problem. So I finish watching movie BC wife is getting annoyed that I am surveying the PQ and pulling up menu. Well at the end of the movie I notice more so than ever that what i am seeing is really bad BC when the credits start rolling it was constantly shaking reminiscent of the horizontal judder that plasma's were always plagued with. No matter what channel I put on I am now seeing this. i did not notice this the first few days. Again when the PQ is good it is excellent but the darker scenes leave some to be desired. Much darker and duller than other sets. Is it that TV's this good look like this now. Am I not used to this new breed of plasma? I'm not sure! In any event something is way wrong with this (shaky shake). That is what I am coining this! If this is in fact an issue with this line. BC it shakes once or twice and then follows with another shake once or twice. So help me fellow AVS members with my Shaky-Shake Issue.......With the much heralded ST60!!!

Has anyone else experienced this judder/shake/wobble? Or has anyone heard of this from anyone else who owns this TV? Or any other TV? I am hoping to get some answers to this problem and eventually get to the bottom of it and fix it.

Or at the least bring awareness to this problem if it is in fact a inherent flaw with the TC-P50ST60!
Does the ST60 have the Shaky Shake???

Thanks to all in advance for any feedback or recommendations...
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post #2 of 43 Old 03-31-2013, 11:11 PM
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I have not noticed a shaky shaky on our st60
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post #3 of 43 Old 03-31-2013, 11:49 PM
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" I am also still noticing the picture has a different look to it. It is hard to explain what it is. it almost looks a little fake to me, I think??"

Probably a long shot that this is the issue, but every time I see the words it looks fake I think of that god awful soap opera effect. Do these sets come with it on, and if so did you turn it off?

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post #4 of 43 Old 04-01-2013, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Omni009 View Post

" I am also still noticing the picture has a different look to it. It is hard to explain what it is. it almost looks a little fake to me, I think??"

Probably a long shot that this is the issue, but every time I see the words it looks fake I think of that god awful soap opera effect. Do these sets come with it on, and if so did you turn it off?

My ST50 came with Motion Smoothing setting on medium and this had a pronounced soap opera effect at the level. The setting in under the Advanced Picture settings. IMO, on the ST50, setting the motion smoother to weak or off seems almost exactly the same. I assume the menu settings are fairly close on the ST50 and the ST60.
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post #5 of 43 Old 04-01-2013, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Imperatore View Post

So here I am tonight I get back from party after celebrating Easter Sunday and I lay in bed with my family and watch a movie. Well I start seeing the picture shake and wobble.

Sounds like judder and the motion smooter helps with judder but you will wind up with the soap opera effect. Also make sure 3:2 pulldown when watching TV and 60hz is on when watching Blu rays, this may help.
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post #6 of 43 Old 04-02-2013, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Sounds like judder and the motion smooter helps with judder but you will wind up with the soap opera effect. Also make sure 3:2 pulldown when watching TV and 60hz is on when watching Blu rays, this may help.
Thanks cuda, I reset cable box again yesterday and that got rid of the picture shaking for now but I still see judder with vertical scrolling credits. The cable box must have been causing the shake since I'm not seeing it like I did on Easter. On my vt30 sometimes I see judder on a horizontal ticker and then I won't. This will happen within a couple of minutes of one another, really odd.
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post #7 of 43 Old 04-02-2013, 02:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Sounds like judder and the motion smooter helps with judder but you will wind up with the soap opera effect. Also make sure 3:2 pulldown when watching TV and 60hz is on when watching Blu rays, this may help.
By the way 3/2 pull down is off and grayed out (in custom pic setting) and 60hz is also grayed. I only saw it available to change with blu-ray's.
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post #8 of 43 Old 04-02-2013, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Cuda1169 View Post

My ST50 came with Motion Smoothing setting on medium and this had a pronounced soap opera effect at the level. The setting in under the Advanced Picture settings. IMO, on the ST50, setting the motion smoother to weak or off seems almost exactly the same. I assume the menu settings are fairly close on the ST50 and the ST60.
Yes just scroll to 2nd page for motion smoother. It is set to mid and I don't see change either with it off. I thought it might be soap opera effect and I said to myself, naaaa! Could it be true? I thought this was to be like the 3rd best tv for 2013 behind vt/zt panny's and f8500 Sammy?? I'm not sure I want to get used o looking at this nor should I have to for 1 grand. I really want this tv to work out. Is it me?
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post #9 of 43 Old 04-02-2013, 03:45 PM
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Yes just scroll to 2nd page for motion smoother. It is set to mid and I don't see change either with it off. I thought it might be soap opera effect and I said to myself, naaaa! Could it be true? I thought this was to be like the 3rd best tv for 2013 behind vt/zt panny's and f8500 Sammy?? I'm not sure I want to get used o looking at this nor should I have to for 1 grand. I really want this tv to work out. Is it me?

I suggest leaving it off, it's unnatural and has a history of causing other image related problems. I also have a shaking cable box so that was most likely the problem. Been meaning to return it but keep putting it off for some reason or another. rolleyes.gif As for your issues with judder and scrolling credits, that one's on you. I don't know when's the last time you were in a movie theater, but the credits are not perfectly smooth. You're seeing judder that's related to low fps content, such as movies and cable TV, it's perfectly normal.
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post #10 of 43 Old 04-02-2013, 08:36 PM - Thread Starter
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" I am also still noticing the picture has a different look to it. It is hard to explain what it is. it almost looks a little fake to me, I think??"

Probably a long shot that this is the issue, but every time I see the words it looks fake I think of that god awful soap opera effect. Do these sets come with it on, and if so did you turn it off?
Yes they do come with motion smother on set to mid. I have it turned to off now and will see if I notice an improvement. I have not spent but 20 minutes watching it since turning it off. At least someone else sees what I am seeing. Don't get me wrong it does produce an outstanding picture at times. It is just not consistent at looking outstanding. I still need more time living with it. I probably have about 10 hours or so watching it so far. I will keep reporting back and taking any suggestions.
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post #11 of 43 Old 04-02-2013, 08:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Cuda1169 View Post

My ST50 came with Motion Smoothing setting on medium and this had a pronounced soap opera effect at the level. The setting in under the Advanced Picture settings. IMO, on the ST50, setting the motion smoother to weak or off seems almost exactly the same. I assume the menu settings are fairly close on the ST50 and the ST60.
No, the settings on the St60 have more advanced feature settings including pro settings and numerous other picture adjustments. It is completely revamped and similar to gt/vt series menu's.
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post #12 of 43 Old 04-02-2013, 08:55 PM
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My ST50 came with Motion Smoothing setting on medium and this had a pronounced soap opera effect at the level. The setting in under the Advanced Picture settings. IMO, on the ST50, setting the motion smoother to weak or off seems almost exactly the same. I assume the menu settings are fairly close on the ST50 and the ST60.
No, the settings on the St60 have more advanced feature settings including pro settings and numerous other picture adjustments. It is completely revamped and similar to gt/vt series menu's.

Turn off all the processing, including motion smoother and pixel orbiter. If it still offends you then you have a couple of choices.Go play with one in the store, take a dvd with you and ask for the remote. If it behaves the same then return it and buy something else. If not then exchange yours for another.

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post #13 of 43 Old 04-02-2013, 09:12 PM - Thread Starter
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I suggest leaving it off, it's unnatural and has a history of causing other image related problems. I also have a shaking cable box so that was most likely the problem. Been meaning to return it but keep putting it off for some reason or another. rolleyes.gif As for your issues with judder and scrolling credits, that one's on you. I don't know when's the last time you were in a movie theater, but the credits are not perfectly smooth. You're seeing judder that's related to low fps content, such as movies and cable TV, it's perfectly normal.
I appreciate your advice. I too have been meaning to return this box as I noticed this with a Samsung plasma but not nearly as pronounced. I did reset it on Easter and it was still shaky afterwards so I thought it must be the tv. Especially when I saw the credits readjusting so much. I also have been to movies recently. I take my children often. I do see it a little in movies and do realize it has to do with the content. It is just a lot worse than any other HD tv I have owned or watched. It's not something I was expecting from the ST60 and wonder why I didn't notice this with the S60 before I returned it. I am going to take my time with this tv before I make my decision as to keep this model or go with another. If I keep the st60 I am going to return this for the 60" version anyway. So I want to be sure I am happy with it before spending $500 more!
This is a bedroom tv and I previously had my Samsung e530 there which was great and very consistent for mostly cable watching. For $950 I can buy the new version if the e530, the 60"F5300. I know it probably cannot produce the outstanding PQ I have seen with the ST60 but I have a feeling it might be more consistent for cable viewing. Meaning less grainy noise with dark and light scenes. It may just be that is the trade off with these more expensive plasma variants. Especially when they keep adding new features to the sets...
The e530 was not too shabby either it has great PQ and color, in my opinion. Even the e450 (720p) which i also own is very good and consistent. i do not see the grainy noise with these 2 tv's with cable tv viewing. it confuses my judgement bc i know these tv's are not as good as the Panny's.
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post #14 of 43 Old 04-02-2013, 09:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Turn off all the processing, including motion smoother and pixel orbiter. If it still offends you then you have a couple of choices.Go play with one in the store, take a dvd with you and ask for the remote. If it behaves the same then return it and buy something else. If not then exchange yours for another.
This is an option I have considered. Only thing is this model is up high and does not have any type of media player hooked up to it. I do highly doubt there is anything wrong with my specific tv though. I am just going to live with it and play with the settings and see if I enjoy it for the time being. I have 60 days to return it. I am going to get a hdmi splitter and hook my Sammy plasma next to it for comparison. When I get a grainy noisy picture I will be able to see if both sets have it. I just hope my wife doesn't get too upset to have 2 50" plasmas next to one another. My kids will think its cool though.
Ohh I wish I wasn't so damn picky. I went over my cousins house the other day and noticed he had his 3 yr old led set to standard picture setting. He never even thought to look into his picture menu. He was like yeah fix it for me, i dont know. Make it look good. I believe it is true, ignorance is bliss!
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post #15 of 43 Old 04-02-2013, 09:31 PM
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I think it comes down to Panny not using any motion blur or artificial effects to make judder seem less noticeable (but I'm just guessing). Personally, it doesn't bother me much on my GT50, and I have actually tested the same content on two monitors and two different TV's. The judder might have been slightly more blurred on the LCD's, but overall it gave off the same impression as the GT50. It's definitely more abrupt and "sharp" on the Panny though, so it probably bothers some more than others.
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Turn off all the processing, including motion smoother and pixel orbiter. If it still offends you then you have a couple of choices.Go play with one in the store, take a dvd with you and ask for the remote. If it behaves the same then return it and buy something else. If not then exchange yours for another.
This is an option I have considered. Only thing is this model is up high and does not have any type of media player hooked up to it. I do highly doubt there is anything wrong with my specific tv though. I am just going to live with it and play with the settings and see if I enjoy it for the time being. I have 60 days to return it. I am going to get a hdmi splitter and hook my Sammy plasma next to it for comparison. When I get a grainy noisy picture I will be able to see if both sets have it. I just hope my wife doesn't get too upset to have 2 50" plasmas next to one another. My kids will think its cool though.

Is there no other store that might have one to see? Don't forget to check out the Help menu for settings info, etc.
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Ohh I wish I wasn't so damn picky. I went over my cousins house the other day and noticed he had his 3 yr old led set to standard picture setting. He never even thought to look into his picture menu. He was like yeah fix it for me, i dont know. Make it look good. I believe it is true, ignorance is bliss!

eek.gif

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post #17 of 43 Old 04-02-2013, 09:36 PM
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I think it comes down to Panny not using any motion blur or artificial effects to make judder seem less noticeable (but I'm just guessing). Personally, it doesn't bother me much on my GT50, and I have actually tested the same content on two monitors and two different TV's. The judder might have been slightly more blurred on the LCD's, but overall it gave off the same impression as the GT50. It's definitely more abrupt and "sharp" on the Panny though, so it probably bothers some more than others.

I hate judder.

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post #18 of 43 Old 04-02-2013, 09:39 PM
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I hate judder.

So do you use the motion smoother? I might not hate it if it worked like you were actually watching something that's HFR, but it seems to have glitches and hiccups to it.
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post #19 of 43 Old 04-02-2013, 09:45 PM
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I hate judder.

So do you use the motion smoother? I might not hate it if it worked like you were actually watching something that's HFR, but it seems to have glitches and hiccups to it.

I only use it occasionally, usually for some analog channels that Charter refuses to make digital.

Hey, do you have the blu ray of Collateral (Tom Cruise)? If so watch the train scene near the end of the movie and tell me if you see anything off. I saw that when I first tried out the GT50 and VT50. If you see it then you'll better understand the only problem I have with the tvs.

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I only use it occasionally, usually for some analog channels that Charter refuses to make digital.

Hey, do you have the blu ray of Collateral (Tom Cruise)? If so watch the train scene near the end of the movie and tell me if you see anything off. I saw that when I first tried out the GT50 and VT50. If you see it then you'll better understand the only problem I have with the tvs.

Can't say that I do.

But I'll admit that some judder is more distracting when it comes to certain films and TV shows.
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post #21 of 43 Old 04-02-2013, 10:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Can't say that I do.

But I'll admit that some judder is more distracting when it comes to certain films and TV shows.

I agree it is in fact more distracting with certain content. I didn't expect it as I have seen so far with the st60 bc my 65vt30 has not behaved like the st60. The st60 still has an excellent picture is is just different so far. Hard to put my finger on it. I need more time with the set for sure.
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post #22 of 43 Old 04-03-2013, 08:58 AM
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I agree it is in fact more distracting with certain content. I didn't expect it as I have seen so far with the st60 bc my 65vt30 has not behaved like the st60. The st60 still has an excellent picture is is just different so far. Hard to put my finger on it. I need more time with the set for sure.

In your view, is the VT30 more or less judder free? What other aspects of the VT30 do you find better/worse than the ST60? I’d be interesting in your first had observations.
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post #23 of 43 Old 04-03-2013, 09:12 AM
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To be honest, on my ST50, I only notice judder on rolling credits at the end of movies. With the rave reviews the ST60 has been getting with its better/sharper picture over the ST50, I expected the ST60 to better in all areas including judder management.
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post #24 of 43 Old 04-03-2013, 09:27 AM
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Correct me if I am wrong, the improved sharpness on the ST60 vs the ST50 is related to the video processing with scaling and deinterlacing. I don't believe there is difference on blu-ray?

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post #25 of 43 Old 04-03-2013, 11:11 PM - Thread Starter
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To be honest, on my ST50, I only notice judder on rolling credits at the end of movies. With the rave reviews the ST60 has been getting with its better/sharper picture over the ST50, I expected the ST60 to better in all areas including judder management.
The st60 is a better than set than st50. I have a few more hours spent watching it and I have to admit it does give off a superb image. Color and brightness are spectacular in bright scenes. Colors seem to be spot on. I am starting to really like the PQ. It is just with compressed signal there leaves something to be desired. ESP with the noise but the positives are starting to make up for it. By the way I was able to get rid of the judder by turning my motion smoother back on. I have it set back to mid, factory setting. Strong also works. I'm not sure of any pitfalls yet by keeping it on. I do not notice any other change.
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I fixed the judder with scrolling credits simply by turning the motion smoother back on! It is perfect now. I set it back to mid, it's default setting.
I do not notice any ill effects from turning it back on, such as the soap opera effect. I guess there was a reason all picture modes have it turned to on!!
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post #27 of 43 Old 04-03-2013, 11:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Cuda1169 View Post

To be honest, on my ST50, I only notice judder on rolling credits at the end of movies. With the rave reviews the ST60 has been getting with its better/sharper picture over the ST50, I expected the ST60 to better in all areas including judder management.
The St60 does have a much better/sharper picture than the st50. I am really starting to enjoy this tv. The color and PQ are superb with good uncompressed signals. It really is spectacular in color rendition.
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post #28 of 43 Old 04-03-2013, 11:25 PM - Thread Starter
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It seems thread topic has been fixed and it should read instead some grain and noise with certain dark scenes.
My cable box seems to have been the culprit with the Shaky-Shake and motion smoother on takes care of the scrolling judder. I'm starting to think the 60" upgrade in size will look good on my bedroom wall.
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post #29 of 43 Old 04-04-2013, 12:11 AM - Thread Starter
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In your view, is the VT30 more or less judder free? What other aspects of the VT30 do you find better/worse than the ST60? I’d be interesting in your first had observations.
I have not noticed any real issue with judder on the VT30. The VT30 is an phenomenal tv. I love my VT30. the setting menu adjustments allow for so much calibration. The new ST60 has upgraded adjustments for calibration similar to the VT30. in fact there are some new items. Randy Walters listed them in the ST60 thread. Keep in mind the VT30 orig cost $3899 so for $1k the 50"ST60 is outstanding in Utile factor alone. I do believe the utile per dollar will leave a warm fuzzy in most people's belly! The Picture Quality is different but they are both stellar with good content.
I cannot wait to see the new VT and ZT! I wonder how many times I will go 7 weeks and then upgrade either in size or model number. With the 60 days for returns that I get it allows for prices to keep dropping. As soon as oled's are released we will enjoy even further discounts. I believe this is a great time for plasma lovers. We might be in the height of the golden age for plasmas right now! I just hope these manufacturers don't give up plasmas just yet. We need the competition if we want these sets to continue to get better. i hope the rumors are not true about Panasonic dropping their plasma lines. It will be a very long time before cable can produce 4k ultra hi def content. For crying out loud they can't even do 1k, 1080p!!! More than half their channels are still standard 480p. We are nowhere even remotely close to ultra hidef tv programming. It will only be red-ray's from Sony prob for years. I'm not buying into the up scaling gimmick just yet. I have to see it first!
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post #30 of 43 Old 04-05-2013, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Imperatore View Post

I fixed the judder with scrolling credits simply by turning the motion smoother back on! It is perfect now. I set it back to mid, it's default setting.
I do not notice any ill effects from turning it back on, such as the soap opera effect. I guess there was a reason all picture modes have it turned to on!!

Interesting, on my ST50, the SOE is pronounced with the motion smoother set to Mid or higher.
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