2013 Panasonic Settings/Issues Thread - Page 106 - AVS Forum
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post #3151 of 3453 Old 03-22-2014, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by hungro View Post

If the what I am seeing in the photos is correct then this is probably as case off having the brightness too high. Set your brightness to where 16 is invisible and 17 is clearly visible, but again make sure 16 stays invisible. Do this with your nose up to the screen to see where 16 disappears. I also noticed you have color temp on Cool. Set it to Warm 2. it`s closer to being more accurate. Disable any picture enhancements as well, like motion smoother, AGC , Black Extension set this to zero. Then see if you still see this ``snow``. As it has already been mentioned Plasma dithers in the lower levels near black this is a technology limitation it won`t go away. What you don`t want is this ``snow`` or dithering on a black background or Refrence Black 16.

Unfortunately those photos aren't that useful as they don't show the noise/snow in the area below 16 but maybe the second one at least gives an impression in the 17-18 bars of what I'm seeing.

I've been using Cool as Normal or Warm (the only other options) seem too yellowish to me, even affecting the OSD but I did just read a thread that suggested it's meant to look Yellowish and I just need to get used to it, so I'll try it on Normal. I've already disabled all the enhancements, although I can only do that in Custom as they're not accessible in Cinema, so should I go back to using Custom?

When I was watching that film the other night (it was an Italian Film called The Arrival of Wang) this noise was very obvious in the black background of the darkened interrogation room. I guess that this background may have been just above black but if you're saying that I'll have to put up with this noise/dithering in such scenes, then that's very disappointing but as I see it in the bars below 16 in the test clip, maybe it's not dithering but something else.
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post #3152 of 3453 Old 03-22-2014, 09:13 AM
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Or you could get Chad B when he comes out to the Bay Area or if you live near him. smile.gif HTwaits is right, trying to organize a group tour is like herding cats, but we only need 3 more people/displays!

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1521572/bay-area-calibration-tour-by-chad-b#post_24514927
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post #3153 of 3453 Old 03-22-2014, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by doveman View Post

There were some threads that suggested I needed to calibrate black to 17 on these particular patterns for accurate reference black

I hope they were trying to work around some problem, because that's incorrect as a standalone statement.

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but regardless, I very much do see dithering (if that's what this noise/snow is) all throughout the background down to 0, without a magnifiying glass and from 7-8ft away and with the video paused. I see it on the black background of my Raspberry Pi's XBMC menu as well. I just tested again and couldn't get it to show when playing the video from the USB stick though but I'm sure it did before so I'll keep testing to try and confirm. I've found that playing from the USB stick uses Full Range RGB so that if I increase the brightness it shows the bars below 16, whilst playing it from my RPi uses limited range, so the bars below 16 never show regardless of how high I set the brightness.

You do need to make sure the levels are matched, and it sounds like they may not be.

BTW, there's nothing about "limited range" that implies you won't see bars below 17 when you turn up brightness. Limited range means 16 is reference black, and 235 is reference white. The signal can still contain 0-255, with values below 16 being "blacker than black" (BTB), and values above 235 being "whiter than white" (WTW). Because BTB does not appear in real video, it must be calibrated out, and in fact it helps to calibrate Brightness. OTOH, WTW can appear in real video and should be preserved as much as possible; you can see it by adjusting Contrast while looking at the White Clipping pattern.

As for "full range", what that does is expand the normal video levels from 16-235 to 0-255, throwing away all the BTB and WTW information. You won't see any bars below 16 or above 235 when using full range, because that information is gone. So in a sense, "full range" is the one that is "limited", as it throws away information. Based on your description of the missing bars, your RPi is outputting full range, not limited range, or the player is clipping BTB for some stupid reason.

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I've found it doesn't seem noticeable with the brightness at 0 (with the test pattern at least, with that film I was watching the other day I had to decrease brightness to -14 to get rid of it) but becomes very noticeable at +2 to +4, which seems to be where it needs to be. At around +5 it seems to blend away again, I suppose because everything becomes so bright/grey.

Assuming levels are matched between source and TV, Brightness is correctly adjusted, etc, is it possible that what you think is black in the film isn't really black? For example, I would have thought space is black, but in "2001", it often has values around RGB(20) instead of 16. That's going to appear grayish in low APL scenes on a properly calibrated TV that isn't crushing blacks, but at a "normal" viewing distance, you shouldn't see the dancing pixels, not even when the video is paused.

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Even if setting the brightness at 0 will give me a fairly decent calibration (or even if that is exactly where it needs to be) it still seems wrong that all this noise/snow should appear just from notching up the brightness a couple of steps, which I guess will be necessary when watching in daylight rather than a dark room.

Again, the dithering shouldn't appear in the background or bar 16. It is normal for it to appear in bars 17 and above. It's how plasmas make colors. It's unavoidable.

This does remind me of something. When I briefly experimented with having my HTPC output PC levels for video, I had to tweak the Brightness by 1 in the Nvidia Control panel, because the TV wouldn't calibrate Brightness correctly without doing this. That's one of several reasons I prefer for my HTPC to output limited range, which of course means setting the TV to limited range as well. I use my HTPC only for video, so I accept the levels mismatch for the desktop, and it doesn't impede the use of the computer at all. I have a separate PC on another input for gaming that does use PC levels. The point is, if your RPi is anything like my HTPC when using PC levels, you may not be able to get Brightness exactly right using just the TV controls.
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post #3154 of 3453 Old 03-22-2014, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

I hope they were trying to work around some problem, because that's incorrect as a standalone statement.

I think the suggestion was that the file had been created incorrectly but I'm not sure.
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You do need to make sure the levels are matched, and it sounds like they may not be.

BTW, there's nothing about "limited range" that implies you won't see bars below 17 when you turn up brightness. Limited range means 16 is reference black, and 235 is reference white. The signal can still contain 0-255, with values below 16 being "blacker than black" (BTB), and values above 235 being "whiter than white" (WTW). Because BTB does not appear in real video, it must be calibrated out, and in fact it helps to calibrate Brightness. OTOH, WTW can appear in real video and should be preserved as much as possible; you can see it by adjusting Contrast while looking at the White Clipping pattern.

As for "full range", what that does is expand the normal video levels from 16-235 to 0-255, throwing away all the BTB and WTW information. You won't see any bars below 16 or above 235 when using full range, because that information is gone. So in a sense, "full range" is the one that is "limited", as it throws away information. Based on your description of the missing bars, your RPi is outputting full range, not limited range, or the player is clipping BTB for some stupid reason.

It seems I have some misunderstanding of limited and full range then, as I thought that limited range clipped at 16/235 whilst full range outputs the full 0-255, so that with black calibrated to 16 and white to 235, it was still possible for BTB and WTW to be present. I thought that limited range compressed the output from 0-255 into 16-235, reducing the available steps or gradients thus making the middle somewhat less 'smooth' but more or less showing the same detail at either end.

Certainly the RPi is clipping at 16/235 anyway and adjusting the brightness/contrast doesn't affect the visibility of anything below/above 16/235. I've asked about this and received this reply, which I have to admit I don't fully understand http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=184866&pid=1659445#pid1659445 but I attempted to reply here http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=184866&pid=1659725#pid1659725

I posted some screenshots of the GUI and video which seem to show that the GUI (or the thumbnails at least) is using a different range to video, or at least the brightness is greatly increased with the thumbnails. Maybe they'll give you a clue what's happening.
http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=184866&pid=1659117#pid1659117
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Assuming levels are matched between source and TV, Brightness is correctly adjusted, etc, is it possible that what you think is black in the film isn't really black? For example, I would have thought space is black, but in "2001", it often has values around RGB(20) instead of 16. That's going to appear grayish in low APL scenes on a properly calibrated TV that isn't crushing blacks, but at a "normal" viewing distance, you shouldn't see the dancing pixels, not even when the video is paused.

Again, the dithering shouldn't appear in the background or bar 16. It is normal for it to appear in bars 17 and above. It's how plasmas make colors. It's unavoidable.

Yeah, it's possible that the 'black' in the film I was watching wasn't actually reference black but something slightly higher. Nonetheless, as you say I shouldn't be seeing 'dancing pixels' at 7.5-8ft away. I think I've managed to fix it with the RPi by reducing the brightness to about -2 which appears to be the correct setting to calibrate reference black to 16 but I was watching that film with the inbuilt tuner and had to reduce the brightness to -8 and then -14 to eliminate the problem and that's clearly much lower than the proper calibrated setting.
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This does remind me of something. When I briefly experimented with having my HTPC output PC levels for video, I had to tweak the Brightness by 1 in the Nvidia Control panel, because the TV wouldn't calibrate Brightness correctly without doing this. That's one of several reasons I prefer for my HTPC to output limited range, which of course means setting the TV to limited range as well. I use my HTPC only for video, so I accept the levels mismatch for the desktop, and it doesn't impede the use of the computer at all. I have a separate PC on another input for gaming that does use PC levels. The point is, if your RPi is anything like my HTPC when using PC levels, you may not be able to get Brightness exactly right using just the TV controls.

I've found PCs are a nightmare to calibrate for as well. I was just playing around on my monitor the other day and found that previewing a static picture in a window uses a different range to displaying it full screen, so that in the window it shows the bars below 16 whilst fullscreen it doesn't, so it's impossible to calibrate to make both windowed and fullscreen images appear correctly. Then there's video to calibrate for and games are a whole different ballgame and I don't know how to calibrate for those as games don't provide calibrate patterns to use. Do we just use a fullscreen static picture or video and if the latter, there's so many different renderers and other settings, how are we supposed to know which match whatever mode games use?

That's one of the reasons I'd rather use the RPi for video and keep the PC for games (I don't need to calibrate the desktop for my TV and I have colour profiles for my monitors) but even then, as I sometimes game on my monitor and sometimes on the TV, I have to be careful about adjusting anything at the PC to calibrate it for the TV as then it will be wrong on the monitor. Then there's issues regarding whether games respect the colour profiles and how they differ in fullscreen or windowed mode as well (not that I'd use windowed mode to game on the TV), as explained by yasamoka here http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=387074
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post #3155 of 3453 Old 03-22-2014, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by doveman View Post

I think the suggestion was that the file had been created incorrectly but I'm not sure.

Examining pixel values in screenshots taken in XBMC on a GT430 using Video Levels, I don't see that in Black Clipping, whose bars all contain the values they are labeled with. However, I do see an off-by-one error in White Clipping, where the bars are numbered one higher than the pixel values they contain.

ETA: Those were screenshots I made about 1.5 years ago. I can't currently duplicate the White Clipping issue using the current XBMC Gotham Beta 2.

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It seems I have some misunderstanding of limited and full range then

That's understandable. The terminology is confusing, there are a dozen synonyms for "Video Levels" and "PC Levels", and there is a lot of imprecise and/or incorrect discussion about it. If you have specific questions about what I wrote, I'll try to answer them.

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I posted some screenshots of the GUI and video which seem to show that the GUI (or the thumbnails at least) is using a different range to video, or at least the brightness is greatly increased with the thumbnails. Maybe they'll give you a clue what's happening.
http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=184866&pid=1659117#pid1659117

The Black Clipping thumbnail screenshot has black at 16, whereas the XBMC UI all around it has black at zero. So it would seem that the XBMC thumbnail generator captured the image using Video Levels, and something about it eliminated BTB, converting all values below 16 to 16. That is not a useful thing for it to do, as it makes it more difficult to set Brightness. Viewed on my PC monitor, the pattern appears gray, which is expected, for my PC desktop is at PC Levels, where black is 0. The desktop would have to be using Video Levels for this pattern to appear correct.

OTOH, the screenshot taken while the video was playing is at PC Levels, because examining the pixel values, Bar 16 and below have been mapped to zero, 17 has been mapped to 1, etc. This is the bottom end of what is meant by expanding Video Levels (16-235) to PC Levels (0-255). It looks like it should on my PC monitor, which again is at PC Levels. If the desktop were at Video Levels, blacks would appear crushed.

While I've been using XBMC for several years with Nvidia cards, I don't recall seeing anything like this, and I don't have any ideas as to why it's happening on your system or how to correct it.

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I've found PCs are a nightmare to calibrate for as well. I was just playing around on my monitor the other day and found that previewing a static picture in a window uses a different range to displaying it full screen, so that in the window it shows the bars below 16 whilst fullscreen it doesn't, so it's impossible to calibrate to make both windowed and fullscreen images appear correctly.

What program does that? Sounds like a mistake Microsoft would make...

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Then there's video to calibrate for and games are a whole different ballgame and I don't know how to calibrate for those as games don't provide calibrate patterns to use. Do we just use a fullscreen static picture or video and if the latter, there's so many different renderers and other settings, how are we supposed to know which match whatever mode games use?

AFAIK, games always use 0-255, and I set Calman to output PC Levels when calibrating monitors and my TV for RGB Full. I calibrate to sRGB when trying to get "true" PC output for my gaming PC. OTOH, my main PC is also my HTPC, and I have a monitor attached to its Intel 4600 graphics and my ST60 attached to its secondary GT430. I calibrate the monitor to PC Levels, but the ST60 is at Video Levels, because the TV calibrates better for video as I mentioned in my last message, it preserves BTB and WTW, it's consistent with my BD player, and as I use it only for video, I don't care about the level mismatch at the desktop on the TV, because it just doesn't interfere with anything I use it for. With the Nvidia and Intel graphics at their defaults, WMC works fine on both. I can drag WMC windows between displays, and the levels automatically switch. XBMC is more interesting. I use the Gotham beta with its new 16-235 option, but I have to disable it when I move XBMC onto the monitor. I set up XBMC profiles so I don't have to go through the menus, and I can switch between them using my remote. This option also affects the XBMC UI, which is another difference from WMC, whose UI always uses PC Levels no matter which display it's on.
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post #3156 of 3453 Old 03-22-2014, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by doveman View Post



When I was watching that film the other night (it was an Italian Film called The Arrival of Wang) this noise was very obvious in the black background of the darkened interrogation room. I guess that this background may have been just above black but if you're saying that I'll have to put up with this noise/dithering in such scenes, then that's very disappointing but as I see it in the bars below 16 in the test clip, maybe it's not dithering but something else.

This dithering or noise is normal and it's the way plasma creates the lowest levels of video near black or darks. Unavoidable. However you mention that you see this in the bars below 16 this still sounds to me like you have your brightness too high. Use a black clipping pattern. Custom mode set black so that 16 is invisible and there is no dithering or snow in the black background, the levels above 16 or below . So you shouldn't see levels 14,15 and 16 which is your refrence black., You should see 17 and up . This will set your brightness correctly. Different sources if there is a mismatch might elevate your blacks or crush them , not showing the levels properly. Your best source is a bluray, it's more consistent and easier to calibrate the "chain". Once you add , a pc, cable box etc. then it becomes alot more difficutt . Your just doing basic picture setup right? your not actually calibrating using a meter?
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post #3157 of 3453 Old 03-22-2014, 10:27 PM
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Several things can cause dithering below 16.
1. Brightness is set too high- can be fixed with a known good source & the pattern that you are using.
2. On a Samsung I had, a contrast to gamma relation would create dithering. Once I set my contrast so high, I would have to back down on my gamma setting.
3. Green(maybe even red) is hot in the lower WB end.
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post #3158 of 3453 Old 03-23-2014, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by hungro View Post

This dithering or noise is normal and it's the way plasma creates the lowest levels of video near black or darks. Unavoidable. However you mention that you see this in the bars below 16 this still sounds to me like you have your brightness too high. Use a black clipping pattern. Custom mode set black so that 16 is invisible and there is no dithering or snow in the black background, the levels above 16 or below . So you shouldn't see levels 14,15 and 16 which is your refrence black., You should see 17 and up . This will set your brightness correctly. Different sources if there is a mismatch might elevate your blacks or crush them , not showing the levels properly. Your best source is a bluray, it's more consistent and easier to calibrate the "chain". Once you add , a pc, cable box etc. then it becomes alot more difficutt . Your just doing basic picture setup right? your not actually calibrating using a meter?

Yeah, just basic setup at the moment, I don't have a meter and unlike my Dad's Samsung LCD, mine doesn't even allow me to switch off R,G,B individually, so I'm pretty much limited to doing Brightness and Contrast adjustments for now.

I've adjusted the brightness down to -3 now (for the inbuilt tuner, using the USB port, so no external devices in the chain), which seems about right for reference black at 16. I've switched to Warm now as well and am getting used to it. It's probably not as bad as I thought, just that with so much fake-tan used by actors/presenters it makes them look too orange which made me think it had too much yellow, although it does also give the OSD a yellowish/aged look, which is another reason why I thought it must be the wrong setting.

Nonetheless, as I've said with that film I was watching on TV 'The Arrival of Wang', the noise/dancing pixels/dithering was very noticeable and annoying until I reduced the brightness down to -8 in one scene and -14 in another, which are clearly not the right settings to set reference black at 16. If this is an unavoidable side-effect of Plasma, it seems like it rather negates any benefit from the deep blacks they're supposed to provide as it's rather unpleasant watching a dark scene with noise all over it. I knew a 720P plasma was not going to be much good for PC gaming, due to the low-res and IR worries (I do use it for PC and Xbox360 gaming but not for those with lots of small detail I need to see and which have much the same image displayed for long periods, such as my flight sims) so I only went for Plasma to have a decent picture with video and this is a bit of a disappointment, although I'm still glad I got it everytime I see my Dad's more expensive Samsung LCD, which looks awful to me!

I'd like to convince myself that it was just that film, maybe something wrong with the broadcast but I can't really think of any reason to believe that.
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post #3159 of 3453 Old 03-23-2014, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by cadett View Post

Several things can cause dithering below 16.
1. Brightness is set too high- can be fixed with a known good source & the pattern that you are using.
2. On a Samsung I had, a contrast to gamma relation would create dithering. Once I set my contrast so high, I would have to back down on my gamma setting.
3. Green(maybe even red) is hot in the lower WB end.

I probably did have the Brightness a tad too high, although that doesn't really explain the issues I saw when watching that film.

I did set the Gamma at 2.2 already, so I don't think that's the problem, although I think there's one step lower I could try.

I was using Cool (now switched to Warm) so maybe that would have been pushing Green hot?
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post #3160 of 3453 Old 03-23-2014, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

The Black Clipping thumbnail screenshot has black at 16, whereas the XBMC UI all around it has black at zero. So it would seem that the XBMC thumbnail generator captured the image using Video Levels, and something about it eliminated BTB, converting all values below 16 to 16. That is not a useful thing for it to do, as it makes it more difficult to set Brightness. Viewed on my PC monitor, the pattern appears grey, which is expected, for my PC desktop is at PC Levels, where black is 0. The desktop would have to be using Video Levels for this pattern to appear correct.

Thanks for taking a look at them. For the thumbnail, it shoulds like it would be better if it clipped all values below 16 to 0, as then the GUI black would be at zero and 16 and below in the thumbnail would be too.

My RPi is currently set to use limited range and if the TV is on Full it makes the video/GUI too bright and grey where it should be black unless I turn the brightness down to -14, whereas with the TV on Normal (i.e. limited) it looks black with brightness at 0. With it on Full, the screenshots look the same (i.e. gray) on the TV and PC, whereas with it on Normal, they look black on the TV and grey on the monitor, as you found.

With it on Normal and brightness 0 I don't see the bar at 17, just some odd spots of dither. Notching it up to +1 makes bar 17 visible but at +2 the dither appears everywhere, right down to 2. With it at +1, up close the dither is apparent from 17-25 but not so much from 23-25 as they're quite grey and thus the dither blends away somewhat. From my normal seating position 7.5ft away, it's only noticeable from 17-19, which is still disappointing.

Playing the pattern via the TV's USB port, +1 makes bar 17 visible, just like with the RPi but then it differs as +2 only makes bar 16 visible and then an extra bar every 1-2 steps, so that bar 2 is only visible at around +24.
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OTOH, the screenshot taken while the video was playing is at PC Levels, because examining the pixel values, Bar 16 and below have been mapped to zero, 17 has been mapped to 1, etc. This is the bottom end of what is meant by expanding Video Levels (16-235) to PC Levels (0-255). It looks like it should on my PC monitor, which again is at PC Levels. If the desktop were at Video Levels, blacks would appear crushed.

What I've reported above suggests to me that the RPi is outputting the same value at bars 2-16 (hence why they all become visible at the same brightness setting) and that this value is 16, not zero (if bars 2-16 were at zero I wouldn't expect them to become visibile until I set the brightness quite high, around +24 as I had to when playing the clip from the TV's USB port to see bar 2, which I presume would be at 0 there). However, I may have taken those screenshots when I was using the option hdmi_pixel_encoding=2 to force it to output full range, whereas I'm not at the moment so maybe that would affect them.

I can feel myself getting confused though, so I may well be completely misunderstanding what's happening here!

I took a screenshot of the Home screen with the current settings, mainly to check how it looks on my PC monitor

Having compared it, it's pretty much convinced me that Normal or Warm are the wrong colour setting for my TV. The top part of the screen appears as an untainted metallic grey on my monitor, as it does on my TV on Cool, albeit maybe a bit colder/bluer on the TV but on Normal I'd say it has a greenish hue and on Warm it's rather yellowish/aged looking. I guess different panels need different settings, so Warm might be right for many panels but it just doesn't seem to be for mine. Cool isn't perfect either and still needs proper calibration but it seems like the closest starting point.
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What program does that? Sounds like a mistake Microsoft would make...

Yeah, it was Windows Photo Viewer, although to be fair I was testing on my Dad's PC when I saw it and I can't seem to recreate it on mine at the moment, so it may have been some other software interacting with it.
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AFAIK, games always use 0-255, and I set Calman to output PC Levels when calibrating monitors and my TV for RGB Full. I calibrate to sRGB when trying to get "true" PC output for my gaming PC. OTOH, my main PC is also my HTPC, and I have a monitor attached to its Intel 4600 graphics and my ST60 attached to its secondary GT430. I calibrate the monitor to PC Levels, but the ST60 is at Video Levels, because the TV calibrates better for video as I mentioned in my last message, it preserves BTB and WTW, it's consistent with my BD player, and as I use it only for video, I don't care about the level mismatch at the desktop on the TV, because it just doesn't interfere with anything I use it for. With the Nvidia and Intel graphics at their defaults, WMC works fine on both. I can drag WMC windows between displays, and the levels automatically switch. XBMC is more interesting. I use the Gotham beta with its new 16-235 option, but I have to disable it when I move XBMC onto the monitor. I set up XBMC profiles so I don't have to go through the menus, and I can switch between them using my remote. This option also affects the XBMC UI, which is another difference from WMC, whose UI always uses PC Levels no matter which display it's on.

Thanks, some useful tips there. I hadn't really thought of using an onboard GPU for monitors and a secondary card for the TV, although it wouldn't really work for my particular setup at the moment as I game on both monitor and TV (at different times obviously) but it's something to bear in mind. I'm experimenting with a program called Color Sustainer at the moment, which might help keep the correct colour profiles loaded when switching displays on or off and so on.
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post #3161 of 3453 Old 03-24-2014, 12:31 PM
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Thanks for taking a look at them. For the thumbnail, it shoulds like it would be better if it clipped all values below 16 to 0, as then the GUI black would be at zero and 16 and below in the thumbnail would be too.

Just to be clear, replacing 16 and below with 0 wouldn't quite do the trick. It would need to expand Video Levels (16-235) to PC Levels (0-255). Then the pixel values in Bar 16 and below would be 0, Bar 17 would contain 1, and so forth, up to Bar 235 and above containing 255. (Of course, it can't strictly increase by 1 in between Bars 16 and 235, as the target range has 256 values while the source range only has 220.) Then it would match the XBMC GUI in the screenshot, and it would work on a display configured for PC Levels.

What it actually did isn't helpful, because replacing 16 and below with 16 just makes it more difficult to calibrate Brightness when the display is configured for Video Levels, which it must be for the thumbnail to appear correct, in which case, you wouldn't see Bars 16 and below.

All that said, it is clear there's a level mismatch between the thumbnail and the XBMC GUI, so something went wrong somewhere.

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My RPi is currently set to use limited range and if the TV is on Full it makes the video/GUI too bright and grey where it should be black unless I turn the brightness down to -14, whereas with the TV on Normal (i.e. limited) it looks black with brightness at 0. With it on Full, the screenshots look the same (i.e. gray) on the TV and PC, whereas with it on Normal, they look black on the TV and grey on the monitor, as you found.

The source and TV levels must match, so either both Limited or both Full.

Quote:
With it on Normal and brightness 0 I don't see the bar at 17, just some odd spots of dither. Notching it up to +1 makes bar 17 visible but at +2 the dither appears everywhere, right down to 2. With it at +1, up close the dither is apparent from 17-25 but not so much from 23-25 as they're quite grey and thus the dither blends away somewhat. From my normal seating position 7.5ft away, it's only noticeable from 17-19, which is still disappointing.

That sounds about right. FWIW, there's an inverse relationship between Brightness and Contrast for my 50ST60. At the 67 Contrast I use, I need +3 Brightness. Then Bar 17 is just barely visible in a dark room, and 16 and below are totally dark. On the APL Clipping pattern, I can barely make out Bar 19.

You might try increasing gamma and see if that improves the picture for you. You'll lose shadow detail the higher you go, but it may also affect your perception of dither, though really I expect it to just shift the problem elsewhere as it will just make the TV come out of black slower. Besides shadow detail loss, another downside I observed with high gamma targets as in BT.1886, or worse, the oft-recommended 2.4, is a color shift in high APL scenes, which I wrote about here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1417077/bt-1886-a-question/30#post_24417468

The latest Calman introduced a new gamma feature, "Sliding Power", and I'm using it with a target of 2.28. It's very similar to the custom curve I described, but it has gamma around 2.15 at 10%, whereas I was shooting for 2.1 there. It works great. Be aware that the ST60's main gamma setting is higher than what you actually get. So if you're shooting for 2.2, use 2.4, and if you're aiming for 2.4, use 2.6. I'm using 2.4 as my base gamma now and touching it up in the 10 point controls to match the curve I've chosen.
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post #3162 of 3453 Old 03-24-2014, 01:08 PM
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Yeah, I don't put up a white screen often, but as long as there is a white background over that area, I can see the IR slightly. Happy to know that my situation seems not a terminal illness case smile.gif
i will get the WOW disc and run it. Thx!

Got my WOW disc and run about 8-10 hrs during night, but logo still there when there is a uniform "light" background...So, I guess I have a burn-in now mad.gif

I have bought extended warranty on this, do you think I can call for service or get exchange? (but unlikely will have anything in stock...). i really am careful about this, as I have not play any games, or leave any channel there for more than an hr, or watch any movie that had black bars... Still I got this burn-in...
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post #3163 of 3453 Old 03-24-2014, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by fight4yu View Post

Got my WOW disc and run about 8-10 hrs during night, but logo still there when there is a uniform "light" background...So, I guess I have a burn-in now mad.gif

I have bought extended warranty on this, do you think I can call for service or get exchange? (but unlikely will have anything in stock...). i really am careful about this, as I have not play any games, or leave any channel there for more than an hr, or watch any movie that had black bars... Still I got this burn-in...

Try running it for 24 hours straight.
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post #3164 of 3453 Old 03-24-2014, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by fight4yu View Post

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Originally Posted by fight4yu View Post

Yeah, I don't put up a white screen often, but as long as there is a white background over that area, I can see the IR slightly. Happy to know that my situation seems not a terminal illness case smile.gif
i will get the WOW disc and run it. Thx!

Got my WOW disc and run about 8-10 hrs during night, but logo still there when there is a uniform "light" background...So, I guess I have a burn-in now mad.gif
I don't think that you've established that you have burn-in. Since you say that you can "see the IR slightly", are you sure there hasn't been any improvement (fading)? Run the pixel flipper a lot more, and continue to watch source material that covers the effected area. It may take several days or even a few weeks.
Quote:
I have bought extended warranty on this, do you think I can call for service or get exchange? (but unlikely will have anything in stock...). i really am careful about this, as I have not play any games, or leave any channel there for more than an hr, or watch any movie that had black bars... Still I got this burn-in...
If your extended warranty is with BB then you have some kind of burn-in coverage. I'm not sure how BB defines burn-in, but I am sure that they won't have any Panasonic plasma sets to exchange. You might work a deal for the Samsung F8500 plasma. I'm not aware of any other extended warranty company that covers either burn-in or image retention.

Why are you still worried about black bars? smile.gif
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post #3165 of 3453 Old 03-24-2014, 01:49 PM
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Just to be clear, replacing 16 and below with 0 wouldn't quite do the trick. It would need to expand Video Levels (16-235) to PC Levels (0-255). Then the pixel values in Bar 16 and below would be 0, Bar 17 would contain 1, and so forth, up to Bar 235 and above containing 255. (Of course, it can't strictly increase by 1 in between Bars 16 and 235, as the target range has 256 values while the source range only has 220.) Then it would match the XBMC GUI in the screenshot, and it would work on a display configured for PC Levels.

OK, I understand that. From what you said before (quoted below) regarding the way it expands Video Levels to PC Levels when playing video, it seems that is doing what you've described above, so I assume that's being done correctly?
Quote:
OTOH, the screenshot taken while the video was playing is at PC Levels, because examining the pixel values, Bar 16 and below have been mapped to zero, 17 has been mapped to 1, etc. This is the bottom end of what is meant by expanding Video Levels (16-235) to PC Levels (0-255). It looks like it should on my PC monitor, which again is at PC Levels. If the desktop were at Video Levels, blacks would appear crushed.

I'm still a bit confused about this:
Quote:
The Black Clipping thumbnail screenshot has black at 16, whereas the XBMC UI all around it has black at zero. So it would seem that the XBMC thumbnail generator captured the image using Video Levels, and something about it eliminated BTB, converting all values below 16 to 16. That is not a useful thing for it to do, as it makes it more difficult to set Brightness. Viewed on my PC monitor, the pattern appears grey, which is expected, for my PC desktop is at PC Levels, where black is 0. The desktop would have to be using Video Levels for this pattern to appear correct.

as I believe my RPi/PC is using Video levels now but the pattern still doesn't appear correctly and is much brighter/greyer all over than it should be.

Going back to another thing you said:
Quote:
As for "full range", what that does is expand the normal video levels from 16-235 to 0-255, throwing away all the BTB and WTW information. You won't see any bars below 16 or above 235 when using full range, because that information is gone. So in a sense, "full range" is the one that is "limited", as it throws away information. Based on your description of the missing bars, your RPi is outputting full range, not limited range, or the player is clipping BTB for some stupid reason.

I assume you were referring just to video, as surely PC games use Full range (PC Levels) and aren't expanding Limited range (Video Levels) or throwing away any information? Do all DVDs/Blu-Rays and any other format all use video levels, so that making the source use Full range would always make it do this expansion before outputting to the TV (which would also have to use Full range to display it properly) or are there some video sources that are encoded using Full range?

I understand from what you've said that the reason for not being able to see the bars below 16 could be because my RPi was outputting in Full range, rather than it clipping the video below 16. However, it does seem to be that it's clipping as I'm now running it without the config.txt setting that makes it use Full range and have had to change my TV setting to Normal range to prevent it being much too bright, so it doesn't seem that it could be outputting the video in Full range.

I think one important thing I've learnt from this discussion is that whilst Limited range (Video Levels) only really uses 16-235 for the material, it actually still outputs 0-255 so that the BTB and WTW detail is sent to the display and that any clipping that is done which stops 0-16 and 235-255 being output (or cut at the display side, with the same effect) has nothing to do with what range/levels are selected on the source/TV. Does that sound right?
Quote:
That sounds about right. FWIW, there's an inverse relationship between Brightness and Contrast for my 50ST60. At the 67 Contrast I use, I need +3 Brightness. Then Bar 17 is just barely visible in a dark room, and 16 and below are totally dark. On the APL Clipping pattern, I can barely make out Bar 19.

OK. I guess I thought that if bar 16 and below are all outputting at 0, that there should never be any dither visible in that range, regardless of what I set the Brightness to but perhaps the appearance of dither is just related to the panel and the brightness being too high and nothing to do with the input and could appear with no input at all. It still seems a bit strange that tons of dither would suddenly appear when increasing Brightness +1 from the correcly calibrated setting but if you say that sounds normal to you, I guess it's just something I'll have to live with.
Quote:
You might try increasing gamma and see if that improves the picture for you. You'll lose shadow detail the higher you go, but it may also affect your perception of dither, though really I expect it to just shift the problem elsewhere as it will just make the TV come out of black slower. Besides shadow detail loss, another downside I observed with high gamma targets as in BT.1886, or worse, the oft-recommended 2.4, is a color shift in high APL scenes, which I wrote about here:

Thanks, I'll try that to see if I can improve it at all.
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post #3166 of 3453 Old 03-24-2014, 02:39 PM
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I don't think that you've established that you have burn-in. Since you say that you can "see the IR slightly", are you sure there hasn't been any improvement (fading)? Run the pixel flipper a lot more, and continue to watch source material that covers the effected area. It may take several days or even a few weeks.
If your extended warranty is with BB then you have some kind of burn-in coverage. I'm not sure how BB defines burn-in, but I am sure that they won't have any Panasonic plasma sets to exchange. You might work a deal for the Samsung F8500 plasma. I'm not aware of any other extended warranty company that covers either burn-in or image retention.

Why are you still worried about black bars? smile.gif

Thanks Folks. Give me some hope to continue...
I don't see improvements after running 8-10 hrs, and before that, I had been running the screen wipe from Panasonic for say 8-10 each session for a few days. That's why I think it is lost cause.

my extended warranty is with SquareTrade.... I really like the VT60...let me run the WOW disc during the weekend (48 hrs) and see any improvement.
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post #3167 of 3453 Old 03-24-2014, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

I don't think that you've established that you have burn-in. Since you say that you can "see the IR slightly", are you sure there hasn't been any improvement (fading)? Run the pixel flipper a lot more, and continue to watch source material that covers the effected area. It may take several days or even a few weeks.
If your extended warranty is with BB then you have some kind of burn-in coverage. I'm not sure how BB defines burn-in, but I am sure that they won't have any Panasonic plasma sets to exchange. You might work a deal for the Samsung F8500 plasma. I'm not aware of any other extended warranty company that covers either burn-in or image retention.

Why are you still worried about black bars? smile.gif

Thanks Folks. Give me some hope to continue...
I don't see improvements after running 8-10 hrs, and before that, I had been running the screen wipe from Panasonic for say 8-10 each session for a few days. That's why I think it is lost cause.

my extended warranty is with SquareTrade.... I really like the VT60...let me run the WOW disc during the weekend (48 hrs) and see any improvement.
One problem is that it may be hard for you to determine if you're IR is fading if the word "slightly" is the correct way to describe it. If you had a very obvious IR fixed image, it would be much easier to see if it's fading.

Your extended warranty will not apply so it's time to take the long view of IR. The fact that your IR seems to be of the "long term" variety doesn't mean that it's not fading at all. Hang in there. smile.gif
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post #3168 of 3453 Old 03-24-2014, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

Just to be clear, replacing 16 and below with 0 wouldn't quite do the trick. It would need to expand Video Levels (16-235) to PC Levels (0-255). Then the pixel values in Bar 16 and below would be 0, Bar 17 would contain 1, and so forth, up to Bar 235 and above containing 255. (Of course, it can't strictly increase by 1 in between Bars 16 and 235, as the target range has 256 values while the source range only has 220.) Then it would match the XBMC GUI in the screenshot, and it would work on a display configured for PC Levels.

OK, I understand that. From what you said before (quoted below) regarding the way it expands Video Levels to PC Levels when playing video, it seems that is doing what you've described above, so I assume that's being done correctly?
Quote:
OTOH, the screenshot taken while the video was playing is at PC Levels, because examining the pixel values, Bar 16 and below have been mapped to zero, 17 has been mapped to 1, etc. This is the bottom end of what is meant by expanding Video Levels (16-235) to PC Levels (0-255). It looks like it should on my PC monitor, which again is at PC Levels. If the desktop were at Video Levels, blacks would appear crushed.

If the screenshot you took of XBMC playing the file matches what you observe on the TV, and Brightness is set close to zero, then that would suggest that XBMC is outputting PC Levels, and the TV is configured for PC Levels (HDMI/DVI Range = Nonstandard). That would be a valid configuration.

A possible complication is that the screenshot may not reflect what the video card is actually putting out on the wire. I'm assuming it is the same.

Quote:
I'm still a bit confused about this:
Quote:
The Black Clipping thumbnail screenshot has black at 16, whereas the XBMC UI all around it has black at zero. So it would seem that the XBMC thumbnail generator captured the image using Video Levels, and something about it eliminated BTB, converting all values below 16 to 16. That is not a useful thing for it to do, as it makes it more difficult to set Brightness. Viewed on my PC monitor, the pattern appears grey, which is expected, for my PC desktop is at PC Levels, where black is 0. The desktop would have to be using Video Levels for this pattern to appear correct.

as I believe my RPi/PC is using Video levels now but the pattern still doesn't appear correctly and is much brighter/greyer all over than it should be.

I'm confused, too. smile.gif Forget the thumbnail. If XBMC is playing the video, and it appears gray all over with TV Brightness close to 0, that could happen if the RPi is outputting Video Levels (black = RGB(16)), and the TV is set to PC Levels (black = RGB(0)).

Quote:
Going back to another thing you said:
Quote:
As for "full range", what that does is expand the normal video levels from 16-235 to 0-255, throwing away all the BTB and WTW information. You won't see any bars below 16 or above 235 when using full range, because that information is gone. So in a sense, "full range" is the one that is "limited", as it throws away information. Based on your description of the missing bars, your RPi is outputting full range, not limited range, or the player is clipping BTB for some stupid reason.

I assume you were referring just to video, as surely PC games use Full range (PC Levels) and aren't expanding Limited range (Video Levels) or throwing away any information?

Yep. That's why people who want to configure their PC for both video and desktop usage (including games) typically compromise by configuring video to use PC Levels. That has much less deleterious effect on video than configuring the desktop to use Video Levels would have on desktop programs.

Quote:
Do all DVDs/Blu-Rays and any other format all use video levels, so that making the source use Full range would always make it do this expansion before outputting to the TV (which would also have to use Full range to display it properly) or are there some video sources that are encoded using Full range?

Yes, the video standard is Video Levels, and I don't have any counter-examples. That said, I'm sure that for some definition of "video", there are video files out there that are encoded with PC Levels, and they won't look right on a TV set to the standard Video Levels.

Quote:
I think one important thing I've learnt from this discussion is that whilst Limited range (Video Levels) only really uses 16-235 for the material, it actually still outputs 0-255 so that the BTB and WTW detail is sent to the display

That's the way it should work, yes. Again, BTB never appears in real material, but WTW can. I'd recommend reading the Spears and Munsil articles on Brightness and Contrast for more on all this:

http://www.spearsandmunsil.com/2nd-edition-articles/

Quote:
and that any clipping that is done which stops 0-16 and 235-255 being output (or cut at the display side, with the same effect) has nothing to do with what range/levels are selected on the source/TV. Does that sound right?

I don't think I would say that. There's what they should do, and then there's what they actually do.

An RGB Limited source should take what's in the video and pass it through untouched. The display should display it untouched. This includes the standard video range 16-235, BTB, and WTW, for the full 0-255 range. However, because BTB never appears in real material, it would be legitimate though unhelpful for either source or display to clip BTB. Naughty devices may even clip WTW; IIRC, my 2008 Sony LCD does this. It's not a huge sin, but still undesirable.

For RGB Full, the source device has to expand Video Levels to PC Levels, which sacrifices BTB and WTW. Then the TV has to display it untouched, as the full 0-255 range is being used for video then.

The good news is, the 2013 Panasonics that are the subject of this thread behave as they should. So does my HTPC. So does my BD player. The bad news is, in general, YMMV.

Quote:
OK. I guess I thought that if bar 16 and below are all outputting at 0, that there should never be any dither visible in that range, regardless of what I set the Brightness to but perhaps the appearance of dither is just related to the panel and the brightness being too high and nothing to do with the input and could appear with no input at all. It still seems a bit strange that tons of dither would suddenly appear when increasing Brightness +1 from the correcly calibrated setting but if you say that sounds normal to you, I guess it's just something I'll have to live with.

You said, in part, "Notching it up to +1 makes bar 17 visible but at +2 the dither appears everywhere, right down to 2."

If your TV is in RGB Limited mode (HDMI/DVI RGB Range = Standard (16-235)), that behavior would be consistent with bars below 17 all containing 16, like in the thumbnail in the screenshot you posted.

If your TV is in RGB Full mode (Nonstandard), that behavior would be consistent with bars below 17 all containing 0, like I believe they did in the screenshot of the actual video you posted.

If all the bars contain the pixel values they are labeled with, and they do for my system, I see the lower numbered bars progressively light up as I increase Brightness. It's not all or nothing like in your case. I use RGB Limited, and my system preserves BTB, for both the HTPC and Sony BD player. I have to jack Brightness up to +31 before I start seeing dithering in RGB(0), and that's because the TV is in RGB Limited, where reference black is RGB(16). If I put my TV in RGB Full, where reference black is RGB(0), the dithering in RGB(0) would show up right away if I were to bump Brightness up by 1, and it was properly adjusted to begin with.
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post #3169 of 3453 Old 03-25-2014, 05:07 PM
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http://www.avsforum.com/t/1417077/bt-1886-a-question/30#post_24417468

So if you're shooting for 2.2, use 2.4, and if you're aiming for 2.4, use 2.6. I'm using 2.4 as my base gamma now and touching it up in the 10 point controls to match the curve I've chosen.

I know that for the 50" ST60 a gamma setting of 2.6 is closer to 2.2 actual gamma average, then a gamma setting of 2.4. For the bigger models it's 2.4 instead of 2.2 gamma setting.
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post #3170 of 3453 Old 03-25-2014, 07:51 PM
 
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Hey guys,

Prolly been a while since your break in of your TV but just got my new (ZT) in and have downloaded the Dnice break in slides. It shows only "12" slides on my USB...is this the right amount of slides? Blue,green,red ,couple different shades of gray, and white?

Thanks.
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post #3171 of 3453 Old 03-25-2014, 09:56 PM
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Hey guys,

Prolly been a while since your break in of your TV but just got my new (ZT) in and have downloaded the Dnice break in slides. It shows only "12" slides on my USB...is this the right amount of slides? Blue,green,red ,couple different shades of gray, and white?

Thanks.

It should be 20 slides. 5 of each colour (red, green, blue and grey)

Edit: Just checked the slides from post 1 and there is indeed 12. I must have downloaded mine from somewhere else.
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post #3172 of 3453 Old 03-26-2014, 12:09 AM
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Hey guys,

Prolly been a while since your break in of your TV but just got my new (ZT) in and have downloaded the Dnice break in slides. It shows only "12" slides on my USB...is this the right amount of slides? Blue,green,red ,couple different shades of gray, and white?

Thanks.

 

Yes thats correct. It is a MUST that you run the slides in order. If I recall one of the members on this thread ran them in incorrect order and he now has or had a permanent yellow push.

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post #3173 of 3453 Old 03-26-2014, 06:40 AM
 
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It should be 20 slides. 5 of each colour (red, green, blue and grey)

Edit: Just checked the slides from post 1 and there is indeed 12. I must have downloaded mine from somewhere else.

Funny you mentioned 20 cause I lost my other USB and thought there was about 24 but I must have saved it twice making twice the slides which would be 24...

So the correct number is 12? I figured it was right because back in 09' when broke in my KURO I remember saying that it didn't seem like many slides, 12 at that time too. Just making sure opened the file fully.
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post #3174 of 3453 Old 03-26-2014, 12:38 PM
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Hey guys,


Prolly been a while since your break in of your TV but just got my new (ZT) in and have downloaded the Dnice break in slides. It shows only "12" slides on my USB...is this the right amount of slides? Blue,green,red ,couple different shades of gray, and white?


Thanks.

Yes thats correct. It is a MUST that you run the slides in order. If I recall one of the members on this thread ran them in incorrect order and he now has or had a permanent yellow push.
There is no reason to believe that the order of the slides could cause what you call "yellow push". If you ran only red slides, only green slides, or only blue slides, that might cause a temporary problem because the phosphors would have uneven wear. A qualified professional calibrator has no problem adjusting a color imbalance, so there is nothing permanent about an excess of any color.
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post #3175 of 3453 Old 03-26-2014, 01:27 PM
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Is there a way to way to get into the Netflix app to choose audio output?
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post #3176 of 3453 Old 03-26-2014, 01:59 PM
 
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There is no reason to believe that the order of the slides could cause what you call "yellow push". If you ran only red slides, only green slides, or only blue slides, that might cause a temporary problem because the phosphors would have uneven wear. A qualified professional calibrator has no problem adjusting a color imbalance, so there is nothing permanent about an excess of any color.

Yea I never heard of that problem.
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post #3177 of 3453 Old 03-26-2014, 02:08 PM
 
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As far as checking for cracks (not micro fractures) on a ZT60 where are the most
Important spots to look at? I checked all four corners and sides of the glass as well as the middle of the screen. I'm guessing the sides and corners are most important to check because that's where crAcks in the middle could stem from??!

Also anyone else know how many slides? I have 12 slides running
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post #3178 of 3453 Old 03-26-2014, 04:28 PM
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There is no reason to believe that the order of the slides could cause what you call "yellow push". If you ran only red slides, only green slides, or only blue slides, that might cause a temporary problem because the phosphors would have uneven wear. A qualified professional calibrator has no problem adjusting a color imbalance, so there is nothing permanent about an excess of any color.

 

Exactly. 

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post #3179 of 3453 Old 03-27-2014, 06:28 AM
 
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Originally Posted by oechikr View Post

Exactly. 

Wasn't worried about the order just wanted to know how many and the file only opens up with 12 so I'm gonna say that's the right amount.
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post #3180 of 3453 Old 03-27-2014, 06:18 PM
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No need to adjust luminance/Y?

I finally got around to calibrating my 60ST60-which IMHO turned out great and looks spectacular.
The one thing I found odd was that I did not need to adjust luminance/Y of any of the primaries.
Is my set perfect or did I miss something??

Screen shots of Calman below.





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