2013 Panasonic Settings/Issues Thread - Page 114 - AVS Forum
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post #3391 of 3458 Old 06-21-2014, 07:57 PM
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^^^^^You are a brave soul Not a lot of people here venture into the service menu anymore especially since Panasonic put the usage hours on the main menu itself. Be careful milling about in there.
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post #3392 of 3458 Old 06-22-2014, 07:31 AM
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Put in D-nice's and CNET's settings. Skin tones and colors in general are probably a bit more accurate with CNET's settings, but I like the pop in the colors D-nice's settings provide. Both are outstanding and much better than any built in settings. I had to use True Cinema mode rather than Cinema mode for CNET's settings on my TH-P42ST60W. Most settings are grayed out in Cinema mode.

After some comparing, I think I have settled on CNET's settings, but I appreciate having both. Shadow detail and color accuracy just seems superior with the CNET settings.

Last edited by TheronB; 06-22-2014 at 09:10 PM.
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post #3393 of 3458 Old 06-29-2014, 12:24 AM
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My TH-P42ST60W has developed a stuck red pixel on the lower left corner. It came out right around the 150 hour mark. I am sure it wasn't there before because it sticks out easily on the light D-Nice slides. Hopefully it clears itself up eventually, but I cannot see it during normal viewing. I probably would have never seen it if I had stopped running the slides. I plan to run them often until I reach the 500 hour mark. Luckily I have mellowed with age...I would have been pissed when I was younger.

EDIT - The stuck pixel fixed itself already! WOOT!

Found these settings for the 42" model...
http://www.avforums.com/threads/panasonic-tx-p42st60b-reviewers-recommended-best-settings.1785807/

Very similar end result to the CNET settings but a good bit dimmer. I moved them over to the custom mode as an alternative to my favorite, the CNET settings. I don't need the D-Nice settings any longer...much too red for my taste.

Last edited by TheronB; 07-05-2014 at 10:55 AM.
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post #3394 of 3458 Old 07-07-2014, 10:20 AM
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I have a couple of questions in regards to the North American TC-PxxZT60 Reference Settings.

  1. In the Pro Settings I don't see an option for "Normal" under Color Gaumut. What I do see are the following: Native, Rec. 709, SMPTE-C, EBU.
  2. Under the HDMI/DVI RGB Range settings, I don't see an option for "Off". What I see are: Auto, Nonstandard, Standard (16-235).

I would also like to thank D-Nice for sharing his settings. It is very much appreciated!
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post #3395 of 3458 Old 07-07-2014, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oyama View Post
I have a couple of questions in regards to the North American TC-PxxZT60 Reference Settings.

  1. In the Pro Settings I don't see an option for "Normal" under Color Gaumut. What I do see are the following: Native, Rec. 709, SMPTE-C, EBU.
  2. Under the HDMI/DVI RGB Range settings, I don't see an option for "Off". What I see are: Auto, Nonstandard, Standard (16-235).

I would also like to thank D-Nice for sharing his settings. It is very much appreciated!
Should be rec709 and off refers to hdmi content type .
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post #3396 of 3458 Old 07-08-2014, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post
Should be rec709 and off refers to hdmi content type .
I noticed d-nice has gamma at 2.4 for day mode. Isn't too high for day time viewing? Why Not 2.2 or lower?

Last edited by music_to_my_ear; 07-08-2014 at 01:35 PM.
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post #3397 of 3458 Old 07-08-2014, 02:42 PM
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2.4 is a gamma preset, it actually measures closer to 2.2. It is a starting point for a calibration and then the gamma is adjusted to whatever the target its. My calibrated day mode is 2.2.

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post #3398 of 3458 Old 07-08-2014, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post
Should be rec709 and off refers to hdmi content type .
chunon, thanks for your response.

So should I leave the HDMI/DVI RGB Range on its default setting "Standard (16-235)" then?
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post #3399 of 3458 Old 07-08-2014, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oyama View Post
chunon, thanks for your response.

So should I leave the HDMI/DVI RGB Range on its default setting "Standard (16-235)" then?
It depends in the source but yes for the majority of sources it should be either auto or standard.
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post #3400 of 3458 Old 07-08-2014, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by chunon View Post
It depends in the source but yes for the majority of sources it should be either auto or standard.
Okay then, thanks for that clarification.
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post #3401 of 3458 Old 07-08-2014, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by music_to_my_ear View Post
I noticed d-nice has gamma at 2.4 for day mode. Isn't too high for day time viewing? Why Not 2.2 or lower?
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post
2.4 is a gamma preset, it actually measures closer to 2.2. It is a starting point for a calibration and then the gamma is adjusted to whatever the target its. My calibrated day mode is 2.2.
Gotcha...so I can adjust it as needed and it won't affect gamma target?
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post #3402 of 3458 Old 07-09-2014, 01:39 AM
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There seems to be some question about what Gamut to choose in are VT60 settings.
Below are three screen shots, the first screen shot is of the Native setting, the second screen shot is of the Rec. 709 setting.
The two screen shots are from my last calibration when I had my VT60 set to Native when running the calibration.
The first screen shot I had my VT60 set to Native.
The second screen shot I had my VT60 set to Rec. 709. This screen shot is just to show the difference in the CIE chart. If I had my VT60 set to Rec. 709 when I ran the calibration the second screen shot would be close to the third screen shot
As you can see the Native Gamut is larger, and larger is usually considered better.
The third screen shot is of my last calibration I did using Gamut setting of Rec. 709 when I ran the calibration.
As you can see not bad, but Green and Cyan miss dead center and slightly higher color errors.

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Last edited by sillysally; 07-09-2014 at 01:49 AM.
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post #3403 of 3458 Old 07-09-2014, 03:10 AM
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Quote:
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Gotcha...so I can adjust it as needed and it won't affect gamma target?

No it affects the gamma. There is no control you can adjust without some effect .
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post #3404 of 3458 Old 07-09-2014, 08:25 AM
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Do you guys notice a big difference in shadow detail with D-Nice's settings VS CNET's settings? On my TH-P42ST60W (Taiwan model), shadow detail is much better with CNET's at gamma 2.2 and I don't notice any difference in contrast. The red tint to D-Nice's settings is a huge turn off for me as well.
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post #3405 of 3458 Old 07-10-2014, 09:33 AM
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Why the big disclaimer in the first post that these slides are NOT for break-in, when they actually are?

I mainly be watching 2.39:1 movies (blu rays) on my new plasma.
Should I run 100 hours of these break-in slides? If so, can I then watch 4:3 3.39:1 movies without worries?

Last edited by James Freeman; 07-10-2014 at 09:58 AM.
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post #3406 of 3458 Old 07-10-2014, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
Why the big disclaimer in the first post that these slides are NOT for break-in, when they actually are?

I mainly be watching 2.39:1 movies (blu rays) on my new plasma.
Should I run 100 hours of these break-in slides?
D-Nice only claims that running these slides for the number of hours stated allows you to recreate the same pattern he used of aging the phosphors before applying his settings. (The term "break-in" is often used to running an electronic device for a certain period of time, temperature, etc.) Since all display panels will be different (similar, perhaps for a given model, but different), there is no guarantee that following his procedure and using his settings will result in the same results on your particular TV. He is just giving you the steps to run the same procedure. That is the reason for the disclaimer.

Having said that, I did run his slides for 200 hours on my U.S. model P60ST60 and then watched mainly full screen content for the next couple of hundred hours just to be on the safe side. Initially I kept the contrast set at about 70-80 on the slider just to not push things too hard initially. Many here say that is not necessary, but it did not impact my viewing since I let the slides run overnight and on the weekends and watching full screen content either came directly from the shows or movies I watched or achieved using the various zoom settings. I did not end up even using D-Nice's settings (or any other published settings). I made a few tweaks to the settings and obtained a very good, natural picture for movies and TV. I may dial it in further later on using a disc with test patterns, but for now, I am very happy with it.
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post #3407 of 3458 Old 07-10-2014, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
Why the big disclaimer in the first post that these slides are NOT for break-in, when they actually are?

I mainly be watching 2.39:1 movies (blu rays) on my new plasma.
Should I run 100 hours of these break-in slides? If so, can I then watch 4:3 3.39:1 movies without worries?
You can only run 16:9 content without worries. Anything else should be limited to around 15% of usage time. So if you do, do it at your own risk.

I never ran slides on my three plasmas since they are only needed if a Pro calibration is needed quickly. I just setup the pic to my liking and limited black bars/logos a bit when new.

When I received my VT60 I unlocked pro modes, turned up the contrast to 96(most suggest much lower) and made sure pixel orbiter was turned on. In the first week I watched 3 letterboxed movies and put on about 75 hours. I have no lingering problems, your mileage may vary.

One of the things I like to do after watching a compromised screen is to play full screen content for a while before I turn it off. That may seem a little silly but I do that to even out the screen wear while it's still warm.
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post #3408 of 3458 Old 07-10-2014, 10:38 AM
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You can only run 16:9 content without worries. Anything else should be limited to around 15% of usage time. So if you do, do it at your own risk.
After the 100 hours of break-in????
Can anyone confirm this?
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post #3409 of 3458 Old 07-10-2014, 11:29 AM
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Just to add: that advise is for the whole life of the tv. It was in previous owners manuals to limit the possibility of IR, IIRC. If you call panasonic it's what they will tell you.

Most here will advise to take it easy on the tv during the first 100 hrs. I ran lots of windowed content on my ST30 for the first year, say 75% and got a little IR from that but now it's all gone since I don't do that anymore. Black areas aren't as bad as bright logos. Full screen content is your friend
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post #3410 of 3458 Old 07-10-2014, 02:06 PM
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I bought a floor model 55" ST60 a couple months ago and have been very happy with it. Had 2900 hours on it but no burn/IR whatsoever due to Sears having a full-screen loop (good job, Sears!).

I've done next to no tweaking it whatsoever and just have been using it mostly in Cinema mode (I had a GT25 with THX mode and I'm missing that a fair bit). I'm just curious what the general consensus here is for using 'recommended settings' on sets that weren't exactly properly broken-in. I realize this is subjective, just curious about others experiences.

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post #3411 of 3458 Old 07-10-2014, 02:41 PM
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I'm just curious what the general consensus here is for using 'recommended settings' on sets that weren't exactly properly broken-in. I realize this is subjective, just curious about others experiences.
You don't need a consensus. You can try any posted settings and judge for yourself if there is any improvement in picture quality. The only way to be sure that you're getting the most accurate PQ from you set is to hire one of the professional calibrators here at AVS who have good reputations.

Calibration Resources:

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post #3412 of 3458 Old 07-10-2014, 05:06 PM
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^^^^^You are a brave soul Not a lot of people here venture into the service menu anymore especially since Panasonic put the usage hours on the main menu itself. Be careful milling about in there.

Have I missed something? I don't see the service hours anywhere in the regular menus unless you're talking about the UK models that he was mentioning?
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post #3413 of 3458 Old 07-10-2014, 05:20 PM
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Have I missed something? I don't see the service hours anywhere in the regular menus unless you're talking about the UK models that he was mentioning?
(Quoted from a previous poster): You can check the hours via the Menu, Help, Version, Status Line 4 (ie: C1350-00000 means 1350 hours are on the TV).
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post #3414 of 3458 Old 07-12-2014, 02:08 PM
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Im trying to calibrate my brothers VT60 using D-Nice's day and night settings as a foundation and am experiencing some problems and surprises:

First surprise is i1d3 is consistently measuring its black level at .0006. Back in November during its initial calibration, my i1d3 was measuring it at .0012. Am I the only one seeing this drastic change in black level over time or is my meter acting wonky? The set gets heavy use on a daily basis. Will check hour count and report back. To my eyes, the set doesnt look blacker than it did before.

The panel drifted significantly after the initial calibration back in November. Specifically, all the grayscale points have a significant red push.

Using the black pluge patterns on both avshd709 and getgray, I am severely crushing blacks using the day mode settings. The culprit is panel brightness being set to high, as the black crush goes away once I set panel brightness to mid. Brightness is at 4, agc is set to 0 and black level is set to light. Is this black crush with high panel brightness normal? Am I missing something?

I absolutely hate how you have to exit out of the adjustment menu to get an accurate reading. The indicator bar at the bottom of the screen definitely affects readings.

Another frustrating phenomenon is how I get drastically different greyscale readings when comparing continuos readings and the series readings using CalMAN. Its frustrating because I use continuous readings to calibrate each point to perfection, only to get drastically different readings when doing a series read of all greyscale points to confirm my adjustments. Which readings should I trust, continuous or series? Not sure who the culprit is here, just though I'd mention it to see if its an isolated incident.


I would greatly appreciate if someone can chime in and address the issues I've noted on this post. Thanks in advance.

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post #3415 of 3458 Old 07-12-2014, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
Im trying to calibrate my brothers VT60 using D-Nice's day and night settings as a foundation and am experiencing some problems and surprises:

First surprise is i1d3 is consistently measuring its black level at .0006. Back in November during its initial calibration, my i1d3 was measuring it at .0012. Am I the only one seeing this drastic change in black level over time or is my meter acting wonky? The set gets heavy use on a daily basis. Will check hour count and report back. To my eyes, the set doesnt look blacker than it did before.

The panel drifted significantly after the initial calibration back in November. Specifically, all the grayscale points have a significant red push.

Using the black pluge patterns on both avshd709 and getgray, I am severely crushing blacks using the day mode settings. The culprit is panel brightness being set to high, as the black crush goes away once I set panel brightness to mid. Brightness is at 4, agc is set to 0 and black level is set to light. Is this black crush with high panel brightness normal? Am I missing something?

I absolutely hate how you have to exit out of the adjustment menu to get an accurate reading. The indicator bar at the bottom of the screen definitely affects readings.

Another frustrating phenomenon is how I get drastically different greyscale readings when comparing continuos readings and the series readings using CalMAN. Its frustrating because I use continuous readings to calibrate each point to perfection, only to get drastically different readings when doing a series read of all greyscale points to confirm my adjustments. Which readings should I trust, continuous or series? Not sure who the culprit is here, just though I'd mention it to see if its an isolated incident.


I would greatly appreciate if someone can chime in and address the issues I've noted on this post. Thanks in advance.
About having to exit the adjustment menu, yeah, it's a pain, but it's necessary. As you have the VT60, maybe the iPad app would be better? I don't have that option on my ST60.

About the difference between single, continuous reads, and series reads with the i1D3, try setting the delay to 5 seconds. If it's working properly, Calman will show the pattern for 5 sec, and then you will hear the sound effect that indicates it took a reading. Due to a problem with automatic profile creation, I had to create a profile manually in Calman back when I had a rental ColorMunki Photo, which meant measuring WRGB myself, and I created a custom workflow page for this. With the standard .5 sec delay, the average relative standard deviations for red xyY when doing a series run for the i1D3 were (.6%, 1.5%, 2.5%), far greater than WGB, whereas the 5 second delay gave (.01%, .02%, .15%) for red, which was about the same as WGB. This finally captured the slight red push the Munki measured as the grayscale IRE increased, and it eliminated most of the jumpiness in the measurements.

FWIW, My 50ST60 hasn't drifted much at all in the last six months. I think most people use Panel Brightness=Mid and turn off AGC and other stuff like that. Be sure you're using the same window sizes for your comparison. For my ST60, I settled on 2% windows after trying larger sizes and the Spears and Munsil Equal Energy patterns, the latter having left me with greenish skin tones in low APL scenes.

Last edited by sawfish; 07-12-2014 at 02:37 PM.
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post #3416 of 3458 Old 07-12-2014, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sawfish View Post
About having to exit the adjustment menu, yeah, it's a pain, but it's necessary. As you have the VT60, maybe the iPad app would be better? I don't have that option on my ST60.

About the difference between single, continuous reads, and series reads with the i1D3, try setting the delay to 5 seconds. If it's working properly, Calman will show the pattern for 5 sec, and then you will hear the sound effect that indicates it took a reading. Due to a problem with automatic profile creation, I had to create a profile manually in Calman back when I had a rental ColorMunki Photo, which meant measuring WRGB myself, and I created a custom workflow page for this. With the standard .5 sec delay, the average relative standard deviations for red xyY when doing a series run for the i1D3 were (.6%, 1.5%, 2.5%), far greater than WGB, whereas the 5 second delay gave (.01%, .02%, .15%) for red, which was about the same as WGB. This finally captured the slight red push the Munki measured as the grayscale IRE increased, and it eliminated most of the jumpiness in the measurements.

FWIW, My 50ST60 hasn't drifted much at all in the last six months. I think most people use Panel Brightness=Mid and turn off AGC and other stuff like that. Be sure you're using the same window sizes for your comparison. For my ST60, I settled on 2% windows after trying larger sizes and the Spears and Munsil Equal Energy patterns, the latter having left me with greenish skin tones in low APL scenes.
Good stuff, will definitiely give it a go. Im using AVSHD709, so 10 percent windows I believe. Is ABL kicking in? I doubt it, since the phenomenon occurs on night mode as well. Any idea as to why I only experience the inconsistent readings when calibrating the vt60? Never had this issue with other panels, including the one who shall not be named in this thread.
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post #3417 of 3458 Old 07-12-2014, 09:22 PM
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If you don't want to do what sawfish did in creating a custom workflow, there should be a low light delay setting for your D3 in CM, turn it on. Look in meter settings tab.

The "Red Push" you are seeing is because of poor meter reads and also how you have set your grayscale points.
I ended up eye balling my 10% thru 30% gray patches when I used the C6/D3 to correct the 'Red push" you are seeing. You should not see any "Red Push" if the meter is working correctly and you have set your grayscale correctly.

You are correct, when pumping up the light out put of the VT60 over its sweet spot you start to clip WRGB. When raising the brightness setting to much you will loose shadow detail. iow's you will get the best PQ using night settings.

When using your D3 meter and CM you can use autocal for your VT60 if it is supported in the version of CM you have.
However I wouldn't recommend using autocal if you are a well seasoned calibrator. I would use CM to change your settings in the VT60 if you don't want to have to keep going into the settings in your VT60. You should have those options in CM under direct display control tab.

I would also suggest not to use the Green gain control or the Gamma gain control when setting your grayscale/Gamma/Temp, adjusting these settings can cause problems in your grayscale/gamma/color temp readings, also in your CMS settings.

Also you may want to use BT.1886 setting in CM, that curve should get you closest to your VT60 grayscale/gamma/Temp sweet spot. And set your Gamma to 2.4 in the VT60.

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post #3418 of 3458 Old 07-12-2014, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
If you don't want to do what sawfish did in creating a custom workflow, there should be a low light delay setting for your D3 in CM, turn it on. Look in meter settings tab.

The "Red Push" you are seeing is because of poor meter reads and also how you have set your grayscale points.
I ended up eye balling my 10% thru 30% gray patches when I used the C6/D3 to correct the 'Red push" you are seeing. You should not see any "Red Push" if the meter is working correctly and you have set your grayscale correctly.

You are correct, when pumping up the light out put of the VT60 over its sweet spot you start to clip WRGB. When raising the brightness setting to much you will loose shadow detail. iow's you will get the best PQ using night settings.

When using your D3 meter and CM you can use autocal for your VT60 if it is supported in the version of CM you have.
However I wouldn't recommend using autocal if you are a well seasoned calibrator. I would use CM to change your settings in the VT60 if you don't want to have to keep going into the settings in your VT60. You should have those options in CM under direct display control tab.

I would also suggest not to use the Green gain control or the Gamma gain control when setting your grayscale/Gamma/Temp, adjusting these settings can cause problems in your grayscale/gamma/color temp readings, also in your CMS settings.

Also you may want to use BT.1886 setting in CM, that curve should get you closest to your VT60 grayscale/gamma/Temp sweet spot. And set your Gamma to 2.4 in the VT60.

ss
Wait, so I shouldn't touch the 10 point gamma controls? My gamma graph looks like garbage if I leave those controls untouched. If I understood correctly, I won't have to touch those gamma controls if I set CalMAN to BT1886?

At this point, Im not even sure if its worth the trouble calibrating a day mode, since my eyes are ultra sensitive to light anyways. Im only doing a day mode for the learning experience and thoroughnes.

Who is to blame for the inconsistency between series reads and continuous reads? Meter, calman or display?

Is the .0006 black level normal for these panels? Back in November, it measured .0012. I've heard that the 2013 Panasonics do experience a black level reduction over time/use. I didnt expect the reduction to be this huge.
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post #3419 of 3458 Old 07-12-2014, 10:17 PM
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the reduction must be intentional, you can't possibly lose half luminaince in such a short time
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post #3420 of 3458 Old 07-13-2014, 12:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
Wait, so I shouldn't touch the 10 point gamma controls? My gamma graph looks like garbage if I leave those controls untouched. If I understood correctly, I won't have to touch those gamma controls if I set CalMAN to BT1886?

At this point, Im not even sure if its worth the trouble calibrating a day mode, since my eyes are ultra sensitive to light anyways. Im only doing a day mode for the learning experience and thoroughnes.

Who is to blame for the inconsistency between series reads and continuous reads? Meter, calman or display?

Is the .0006 black level normal for these panels? Back in November, it measured .0012. I've heard that the 2013 Panasonics do experience a black level reduction over time/use. I didnt expect the reduction to be this huge.
I am not saying never to use the Gamma adjustments, I am saying I don't use them, because they tend to do more harm than good. And the same goes for adjusting green in the RGB settings.
What you may want to do is use the High and Low Red and Blue settings to balance out your RGB and trying to keep your color temp settings for 20% to 100% close (+/- 100) to 6500K, then use the detail 10% to 100% detail settings to help out. Then when you set your CMS (gamut, CIE Chart) keep a close eye on the Y readings for RGB along with x,y readings. If done correctly the CMY (secondary colors) should fall in line with very little adjustment needed. This should also help get your gamma closer to your gamma target.
I am not saying this is easy to do, but I am saying over time you will get close to a good manual calibration.
If you want a fairly reasonable calibration simply use AutoCal for both grayscale and CMS.

Your meter is the biggest problem, the display shift can be a problem but at the 70% to 100% readings. However at that light level it isn't go to make much of a difference in what you see unless you are clipping one or more of WRGB.

A black level of .0012 is ideal, .0006 is probably a bad meter reading. A black level reduction would be if the black level goes up, unlikely it will go down (get blacker)

Remember any change in any of these settings may have a effect on a different setting, so you will need to re-run a 10 point grayscale when you set one of the 10% to 90% (you should not change your 100% once you have set it) points to see if the setting has effected a different point. Once you start to understand what settings affect other settings it becomes much easier.

Don't worry if your gamma doesn't follow CM gamma chart 100%, particularly in the 80% and 90% range, as long as its in the 2.0 to 2.4 range.
Over adjusting your settings can make for a worse calibration even though the charts may look better. If you find yourself making a lot of changes to your settings just to match the charts, start over.

There are other ways to get a very good calibration (as good if not better than most pro calibrators) and much easier, but you would need to spend about $1000 more on equipment. Or learn how to set up a HTPC and still spend about $300.

ss

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Last edited by sillysally; 07-13-2014 at 12:54 AM.
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