2013 Panasonic Settings/Issues Thread - Page 115 - AVS Forum
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post #3421 of 3453 Old 07-13-2014, 01:36 AM
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
I am not saying never to use the Gamma adjustments, I am saying I don't use them, because they tend to do more harm than good. And the same goes for adjusting green in the RGB settings.
What you may want to do is use the High and Low Red and Blue settings to balance out your RGB and trying to keep your color temp settings for 20% to 100% close (+/- 100) to 6500K, then use the detail 10% to 100% detail settings to help out. Then when you set your CMS (gamut, CIE Chart) keep a close eye on the Y readings for RGB along with x,y readings. If done correctly the CMY (secondary colors) should fall in line with very little adjustment needed. This should also help get your gamma closer to your gamma target.
I am not saying this is easy to do, but I am saying over time you will get close to a good manual calibration.
If you want a fairly reasonable calibration simply use AutoCal for both grayscale and CMS.

Your meter is the biggest problem, the display shift can be a problem but at the 70% to 100% readings. However at that light level it isn't go to make much of a difference in what you see unless you are clipping one or more of WRGB.

A black level of .0012 is ideal, .0006 is probably a bad meter reading. A black level reduction would be if the black level goes up, unlikely it will go down (get blacker)

Remember any change in any of these settings may have a effect on a different setting, so you will need to re-run a 10 point grayscale when you set one of the 10% to 90% (you should not change your 100% once you have set it) points to see if the setting has effected a different point. Once you start to understand what settings affect other settings it becomes much easier.

Don't worry if your gamma doesn't follow CM gamma chart 100%, particularly in the 80% and 90% range, as long as its in the 2.0 to 2.4 range.
Over adjusting your settings can make for a worse calibration even though the charts may look better. If you find yourself making a lot of changes to your settings just to match the charts, start over.

There are other ways to get a very good calibration (as good if not better than most pro calibrators) and much easier, but you would need to spend about $1000 more on equipment. Or learn how to set up a HTPC and still spend about $300.

ss
I agree I definitely need a better meter, but its all I can afford for now.

What's funny is the inconsistent readings only occur in CalMAN during greyscale calibration, even after heeding your and sawfish's advice. Greyscale readings were stable using HCFR (and the black level reading was .001), so I went ahead and performed greyscale and gamma calibration using HCFR. I then used CalMAN for CMS calibration and performed a post calibration capture using HCFR. Greyscale and CMS deltaE's were all below 0.5, with a straight line gamma. I'm not too exited about the results, since I know my meter is not that accurate. Not sure what the heck is going on with CalMAN.

I never touch green when calibrating greyscale. The method you described is exactly how I calibrated my greyscale. I used the RGB High and Low settings to get all points around the ballpark. I then used the detail settings to tune them in. I did have to tinker with the Gamma and CMS settings, however.

What mid range budget meter would you recommend I upgrade to? Don't want to break the bank, but want something more accurate than my i1D3.

Thanks!
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post #3422 of 3453 Old 07-13-2014, 03:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChadThunder View Post
the reduction must be intentional, you can't possibly lose half luminaince in such a short time
Looks like its CalMAN. HCFR still measures it at .001.
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post #3423 of 3453 Old 07-13-2014, 05:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
I agree I definitely need a better meter, but its all I can afford for now.

What's funny is the inconsistent readings only occur in CalMAN during greyscale calibration, even after heeding your and sawfish's advice. Greyscale readings were stable using HCFR (and the black level reading was .001), so I went ahead and performed greyscale and gamma calibration using HCFR. I then used CalMAN for CMS calibration and performed a post calibration capture using HCFR. Greyscale and CMS deltaE's were all below 0.5, with a straight line gamma. I'm not too exited about the results, since I know my meter is not that accurate. Not sure what the heck is going on with CalMAN.

I never touch green when calibrating greyscale. The method you described is exactly how I calibrated my greyscale. I used the RGB High and Low settings to get all points around the ballpark. I then used the detail settings to tune them in. I did have to tinker with the Gamma and CMS settings, however.

What mid range budget meter would you recommend I upgrade to? Don't want to break the bank, but want something more accurate than my i1D3.

Thanks!
Your D3 meter is probably the best color meter that is affordable well under $1000. You may want to get a used I1Pro 2 or I1Pro rev D. to profile your D3 meter, but that is probably not going to help much with the low light readings.

I think HCFR uses the D3 tables that where created for ArgyllCMS by gwgill.
Calman probably uses different D3 tables so that may be were the difference lies. Or you may be just missing something in CM when you setup your meter.
iow, if HCFR is like Argyll it may be using some form of black point compensation with your D3 meter, and maybe CM has that feature also but you missed it. That I do not know because I don't have a D3 meter. Maybe ask scotti from CM, or call CM.

I use a K10 color meter along with its software CromaSurf for profiling the K10 with a spectro meter, and then store the profile in the K10 meters memory. That way my meter profile is always the same when changing calibration software, never any guess work.

I use CM v5.3 for my pre calibration settings, then use Argyll or LightSpace for my calibration's. I also use the above software for my measurement reports and sometimes also use CM just to make sure. CM's reports seem to always be close to what LS or Argyll reports say. However are VT60's do drift, so the 100% reading will vary a little.

If you have doubts about the calibration, look at a 21 point step grayscale pattern, if there is no tint of any color expect gray bars your grayscale should be ok. Also a flashing brightness pattern should show only gray bars. And a contrast flashing pattern for clipping should be gray bars. Also check your WRGB patterns for any clipping in those four colors. Chances are ther will be a little in white and blue, that's ok.
If all this checks out, I would think you have a good calibration.

btw, if you want take 5 or more readings with your D3 for 10%, 20% and 30%, then compare the readings for repeatability. Using HCFR and same for CM, if you get very close readings then there probably is np with the meter. Of-course use the same pattern source for both CM and HCFR.

ss
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post #3424 of 3453 Old 07-13-2014, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
Your D3 meter is probably the best color meter that is affordable well under $1000. You may want to get a used I1Pro 2 or I1Pro rev D. to profile your D3 meter, but that is probably not going to help much with the low light readings.

I think HCFR uses the D3 tables that where created for ArgyllCMS by gwgill.
Calman probably uses different D3 tables so that may be were the difference lies. Or you may be just missing something in CM when you setup your meter.
iow, if HCFR is like Argyll it may be using some form of black point compensation with your D3 meter, and maybe CM has that feature also but you missed it. That I do not know because I don't have a D3 meter. Maybe ask scotti from CM, or call CM.

I use a K10 color meter along with its software CromaSurf for profiling the K10 with a spectro meter, and then store the profile in the K10 meters memory. That way my meter profile is always the same when changing calibration software, never any guess work.

I use CM v5.3 for my pre calibration settings, then use Argyll or LightSpace for my calibration's. I also use the above software for my measurement reports and sometimes also use CM just to make sure. CM's reports seem to always be close to what LS or Argyll reports say. However are VT60's do drift, so the 100% reading will vary a little.

If you have doubts about the calibration, look at a 21 point step grayscale pattern, if there is no tint of any color expect gray bars your grayscale should be ok. Also a flashing brightness pattern should show only gray bars. And a contrast flashing pattern for clipping should be gray bars. Also check your WRGB patterns for any clipping in those four colors. Chances are ther will be a little in white and blue, that's ok.
If all this checks out, I would think you have a good calibration.

btw, if you want take 5 or more readings with your D3 for 10%, 20% and 30%, then compare the readings for repeatability. Using HCFR and same for CM, if you get very close readings then there probably is np with the meter. Of-course use the same pattern source for both CM and HCFR.

ss
I think I figured out the problem. I only changed exposure time under meter settings to 1.5 seconds and my readings are more stable. Will recalibrate and report back.
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post #3425 of 3453 Old 07-13-2014, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
I think I figured out the problem. I only changed exposure time under meter settings to 1.5 seconds and my readings are more stable. Will recalibrate and report back.
Yes it sounds like from what you have been saying, that you have a very good grasp on what needs to be done.
Its easy to miss a setting, lord know's I have missed my share of settings over the years.

ss
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post #3426 of 3453 Old 07-15-2014, 08:49 AM
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Are the settings on page 1 the most up to date? I keep hearing people refer to "his latest settings" and I'm not eager to look through all 115 pages

Thx!
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post #3427 of 3453 Old 07-15-2014, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by vinnie123 View Post
Are the settings on page 1 the most up to date? I keep hearing people refer to "his latest settings" and I'm not eager to look through all 115 pages

Thx!
Not sure, but I can tell you from experience that the brightness setting in the day mode for VT60 is incorrect. I'm a little iffy on the Normal color temperature as well, as I found Warm 1 to be the closest to 6500K.
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post #3428 of 3453 Old 07-16-2014, 04:42 AM
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Question about phosphor aging.
Why the various shades of grey (including white) slides if we can use only 3 most effective ones (Red, Green, Blue) where ABL is not active AND we get the fastest and most even aging of the phosphors?

Why not just blast the TV with R,G,B at 100% Contrast, High Panel Brightness, Vivid mode? What are the cons?
That should settle the phosphors in no time.
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post #3429 of 3453 Old 07-16-2014, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
Not sure, but I can tell you from experience that the brightness setting in the day mode for VT60 is incorrect. I'm a little iffy on the Normal color temperature as well, as I found Warm 1 to be the closest to 6500K.
Yes Warm 1 is the closest color temp to D65. However you must look at the big picture, meaning what are the end results.

I only use Normal color temp, by adjusting your RGB high and low settings. All you have to do is drop blue High by about -14, Red High by about -8. Then drop Blue low by about -2 and raise Red low about +2. Set your Gamma at 2.4 use BT.1886 in your calibration software setting. If you are using one of the pro modes set brightness around +2 and contrast about +66. Set your Gamut to Native.
The key is setting your 100% reading very close to 6500K (+/- 30). Also keeping a eye on your y value around 0.3288, x value around 0.3127, Y value about 33FL.
If done correctly, you may not have to use your Detailed 100% RGB setting or if you need to there should only require small Red and Blue adjustments.

Just with these basic settings you should end up with a avg 2000 dE of less than 2. Now your grayscale, Gamma and color temp are ruffed in and for the most part you probably will have lower swings in the Grayscale odd points, than if you used the detailed settings (10% thru 100%). Also when you run a 10 step or higher garyscale pattern you should only see gray in each step.

From there you can go into your CMS setting, mainly adjusting RGB if you feel lucky.

ss
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post #3430 of 3453 Old 07-19-2014, 07:26 PM
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I find myself switching between default THX cinema and SS settings. Reds on THX are way too dialed back on my vt60 but it does have superior shadow detail in comparison. Color seems a bit better with ss settings, but has inferior shadow detail, some black crush. I am just eyeballing/guesstimating it between these two settings of course. I should probably just go ahead and get my vt60 professional calibrated so I don't have to change settings ever other day.

Panasonic TC-P65VT60
Sony BDP-S5100
Elite PRO-101FD

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post #3431 of 3453 Old 07-20-2014, 01:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post
Yes Warm 1 is the closest color temp to D65. However you must look at the big picture, meaning what are the end results.

I only use Normal color temp, by adjusting your RGB high and low settings. All you have to do is drop blue High by about -14, Red High by about -8. Then drop Blue low by about -2 and raise Red low about +2. Set your Gamma at 2.4 use BT.1886 in your calibration software setting. If you are using one of the pro modes set brightness around +2 and contrast about +66. Set your Gamut to Native.
The key is setting your 100% reading very close to 6500K (+/- 30). Also keeping a eye on your y value around 0.3288, x value around 0.3127, Y value about 33FL.
If done correctly, you may not have to use your Detailed 100% RGB setting or if you need to there should only require small Red and Blue adjustments.

Just with these basic settings you should end up with a avg 2000 dE of less than 2. Now your grayscale, Gamma and color temp are ruffed in and for the most part you probably will have lower swings in the Grayscale odd points, than if you used the detailed settings (10% thru 100%). Also when you run a 10 step or higher garyscale pattern you should only see gray in each step.

From there you can go into your CMS setting, mainly adjusting RGB if you feel lucky.

ss
Followed your advice to a T and I must say that, although I love the level of precision that the 10 point gamma and grayscale adjustments provide, calibrating these is a pain in the rear! I had to do two point by point runs for each to get them just right. I got each point as close to perfection as I could during the first (and what I thought would be the last) run only to find out after measuring the entire series that the results did not look quite like I had adjusted. Perhaps adjusting each point affects neighboring points? The CMS however, behaves predictably and beautifully, as I was able to nail all primaries and secondaries in one shot.

I'm seeing a hint of red on the AVSHD709 black PLUGE pattern (especially bars 18, 19 and 20 to a smaller degree). Do these encompass the 10% range and do they have to be calibrated by eye?
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post #3432 of 3453 Old 07-20-2014, 07:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by vinnie123 View Post
Are the settings on page 1 the most up to date? I keep hearing people refer to "his latest settings" and I'm not eager to look through all 115 pages

Thx!
Yes they are,
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post #3433 of 3453 Old 07-20-2014, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
Not sure, but I can tell you from experience that the brightness setting in the day mode for VT60 is incorrect. I'm a little iffy on the Normal color temperature as well, as I found Warm 1 to be the closest to 6500K.
The brightness setting on the VT60 is correct with the settings I posted. If you remotely knew how the 2013 Panasonic plasma's software worked, you would understand why that setting is what it is and nothing higher.
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post #3434 of 3453 Old 07-20-2014, 07:36 AM
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The brightness setting on the VT60 is correct with the settings I posted. If you remotely knew how the 2013 Panasonic plasma's software worked, you would understand why that setting is what it is and nothing higher.
I apologize if my post came across wrong way. In no way shape or form was I trying to imply that I know better. However, i could not see any bars on the avshd709 black pluge pattern, much less the getgrey brightness pattern, with brightness set at 4 on the day mode. That, along with other users setting their brightness to the high teens lead to me to believe it was a typo on your end and you meant 14 instead of 4. Brightness at 4 is on the momey for night mode. Ditto for 14 for day mode. I found that setting the panel brightness to high was causing the black crush. Now if you confirm that brightness at 4 is correct for day mode regardless of pluge pattern not being visible, then I will gladly change it to 4.

I did end up using color temperature normal as was suggested (and its advantages explained) by silly sally and got pretty good results.
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post #3435 of 3453 Old 07-20-2014, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
I apologize if my post came across wrong way. In no way shape or form was I trying to imply that I know better. However, i could not see any bars on the avshd709 black pluge pattern, much less the getgrey brightness pattern, with brightness set at 4 on the day mode. That, along with other users setting their brightness to the high teens lead to me to believe it was a typo on your end and you meant 14 instead of 4. Brightness at 4 is on the momey for night mode. Ditto for 14 for day mode. I found that setting the panel brightness to high was causing the black crush. Now if you confirm that brightness at 4 is correct for day mode regardless of pluge pattern not being visible, then I will gladly change it to 4.

I did end up using color temperature normal as was suggested (and its advantages explained) by silly sally and got pretty good results.
As I said before, the settings are correct and the brightness setting is the way it is due to these display's software. You are welcome to use whatever brightness setting you like but be warned static pluge patterns are invalid on these displays.... per the engineers who designed them.
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post #3436 of 3453 Old 07-20-2014, 11:49 AM
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As I said before, the settings are correct and the brightness setting is the way it is due to these display's software. You are welcome to use whatever brightness setting you like but be warned static pluge patterns are invalid on these displays.... per the engineers who designed them.
As I said before, I'll set it to 4 if you confirm that the value you originally posted is legitimate and not a typo. Hopefully the others who self calibrated it and set it in the high teens for day mode due to pluge pattern usage do the same (according to one user who replied to my original post regarding this issue, chad b also sets it in the high teens for day mode, havent confirmed this myself).

For what its worth, I also used the getgrey pattern, which, as you know, is not static since the bars move from left to right, and saw the same behavior for day mode (no visible bars). The getgrey pattern worked perfectly for night mode and I was going back and forth between a setting of 4 and 5. Is pluge pattern usage invalid for night mode/panel brightness mid as well?

Is this behavior why, on day mode with brightness at 15, bars 17 through 20 on the avshd709 pluge pattern remained red no matter what I did to the greyscale? They looked fine on night mode post calibration.

Regardless, setting it to 4 and re-doing day mode.
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post #3437 of 3453 Old 07-20-2014, 12:47 PM
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As I said before, the settings are correct and the brightness setting is the way it is due to these display's software. You are welcome to use whatever brightness setting you like but be warned static pluge patterns are invalid on these displays.... per the engineers who designed them.
Dnice ,

How are you setting black level then ?
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post #3438 of 3453 Old 07-21-2014, 06:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Dnice ,

How are you setting black level then ?
im using multiple items to check black level. These panels have dynamic software that can and will shift the lower end of the grayscale up and down based on the APL of the incoming signal. This causes excessive dither... especially when the brightness setting is improperly set. I won't even go into the sub field changes when using PB High.

At any rate, A quick and dirty way to set the brightness on these displays is to first use a pluge pattern to set a starting point for the brightness setting. Then use a 10% stimuli windowed pattern as you stand/sit within a foot of the display and reduce the brightness setting until the noise in the windowed pattern goes away.
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post #3439 of 3453 Old 07-21-2014, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
im using multiple items to check black level. These panels have dynamic software that can and will shift the lower end of the grayscale up and down based on the APL of the incoming signal. This causes excessive dither... especially when the brightness setting is improperly set. I won't even go into the sub field changes when using PB High.

At any rate, A quick and dirty way to set the brightness on these displays is to first use a pluge pattern to set a starting point for the brightness setting. Then use a 10% stimuli windowed pattern as you stand/sit within a foot of the display and reduce the brightness setting until the noise in the windowed pattern goes away.
Thanks ! Interesting does this technique only apply for high panel brightness or mid also ?

Last edited by chunon; 07-21-2014 at 07:31 PM.
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post #3440 of 3453 Old 07-21-2014, 07:39 PM
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Thanks ! Interesting does this technique only apply for high panel brightness or mid also ?
From my experience with my two VT60 units it applies to the mid panel setting also.

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post #3441 of 3453 Old 07-21-2014, 07:43 PM
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From my experience with my two VT60 units it applies to the mid panel setting also.

Larry

Thank you sir !
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post #3442 of 3453 Old 07-21-2014, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
im using multiple items to check black level. These panels have dynamic software that can and will shift the lower end of the grayscale up and down based on the APL of the incoming signal. This causes excessive dither... especially when the brightness setting is improperly set. I won't even go into the sub field changes when using PB High.

At any rate, A quick and dirty way to set the brightness on these displays is to first use a pluge pattern to set a starting point for the brightness setting. Then use a 10% stimuli windowed pattern as you stand/sit within a foot of the display and reduce the brightness setting until the noise in the windowed pattern goes away.
No wonder I noticed significantly more dithering in my day mode compared to night mode. When setting brightness for day and night mode I saw red dithering develop in the black background of the pluge pattern when the brightness was set too high. Final value is 4, though 5 did reveal the 1 percent moving bar on the getgray brightness pattern.
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post #3443 of 3453 Old 07-21-2014, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by makaveddie81 View Post
Followed your advice to a T and I must say that, although I love the level of precision that the 10 point gamma and grayscale adjustments provide, calibrating these is a pain in the rear! I had to do two point by point runs for each to get them just right. I got each point as close to perfection as I could during the first (and what I thought would be the last) run only to find out after measuring the entire series that the results did not look quite like I had adjusted. Perhaps adjusting each point affects neighboring points? The CMS however, behaves predictably and beautifully, as I was able to nail all primaries and secondaries in one shot.

I'm seeing a hint of red on the AVSHD709 black PLUGE pattern (especially bars 18, 19 and 20 to a smaller degree). Do these encompass the 10% range and do they have to be calibrated by eye?
Yes doing a proper calibration can be very frustrating at times. But remember one thing, this is how you improve your skills.

More than likely the red tint is being caused by your meter or your CMS settings.
Of-course this is saying that you are not incorrectly setting your contrast, brightness or panel brightness to high. imo the panel brightness high setting should only be used for 3D settings, because they will never be as good as non 3D settings.

I realty don't think that the VT60 shift's much in the dark region, the shifting mainly happens in the high light (100%) output of the VT60. Of-course once the 100% stim shifts (and it will) this can and will cause problems and probably affect the outcome of your grayscale/gamma/rgb balance and color temp.

So yes I would use your eye to set your 10% window and keep your other eye on your x,y and Y readings. If you still see a tint of red after you set your 10% window, do the same with 20% and maybe 30% windows.

Also when you set your CMS/Gamut, you may want to try and use the Native Gamut setting in your VT60.

The shifting (not APL) in the 100% setting is one of the reasons why I don't do a normal type of calibration any more. That's not to say that a normal type of calibration can't be beneficial.

ss
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post #3444 of 3453 Old 08-02-2014, 03:52 PM
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Picture settings question

I noticed the picture didn't look right. I checked with the settings I used (D'Nice) and they were all wrong compared to what theyonce were. I put them back in and I have a problem accessing some the settings in the:
ADVANCE PICTURE SETTINGS

Advance Picture:
Game Mode:
I can access Game Mode and don't know what to set it at

1080p pixel direct:
What to do with this?

3:2 PullDown: Auto
D'Nice suggests a setting of "Auto" but I can't access this.

I appreciate any guidance with the above questions/concerns.

Thank you
Rich



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post #3445 of 3453 Old 08-02-2014, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lungs414 View Post
I noticed the picture didn't look right. I checked with the settings I used (D'Nice) and they were all wrong compared to what theyonce were. I put them back in and I have a problem accessing some the settings in the:
ADVANCE PICTURE SETTINGS

Advance Picture:
Game Mode:
I can access Game Mode and don't know what to set it at

1080p pixel direct:
What to do with this?

3:2 PullDown: Auto
D'Nice suggests a setting of "Auto" but I can't access this.

I appreciate any guidance with the above questions/concerns.

Thank you
Rich



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You should be able to set 3 2 pulldown while youre playing a bluray disc.

I didnt even touch game mode. Youre fine as long as its not enabled.
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post #3446 of 3453 Old 08-04-2014, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
At any rate, A quick and dirty way to set the brightness on these displays is to first use a pluge pattern to set a starting point for the brightness setting. Then use a 10% stimuli windowed pattern as you stand/sit within a foot of the display and reduce the brightness setting until the noise in the windowed pattern goes away.
Does this also apply to the ST60?
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post #3447 of 3453 Old 08-06-2014, 03:50 AM
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On my 50X60B, I've started getting warbling/wow/flutter in the audio but I've only noticed it when watching Channel 4 HD (or +1 HD) with the built-in Freeview HD tuner . The signal screen reads 10/10 so I don't think it's an aerial/signal problem.


Has anyone else encountered this issue? It's extremely irritating and makes it sound like everyone's gurgling or flicking their lips when they talk!
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post #3448 of 3453 Old 08-19-2014, 12:56 PM
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Anyone notice a difference moving from D-Nice's original settings to the updated settings? I'm fairly happy with the old settings and am wondering if it's worth it to enter in the updated settings.
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post #3449 of 3453 Old 08-19-2014, 12:59 PM
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Am I missing something where are the new settings posted. The only ones I have found are dated aug 2013. Is that them? Thanks
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post #3450 of 3453 Old 08-19-2014, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by william06 View Post
Am I missing something where are the new settings posted. The only ones I have found are dated aug 2013. Is that them? Thanks
New setting by D-Nice for the VT60 and ZT60 dated 04/03/2014 are available at http://www.calibrationforums.com/for...read.php?t=939.

The ST60 settings seem unchanged from the original April 2013 posting.

You have to register to download the settings from the Calibration Forums site but it is free. The files are in xml format but can be opened in Windows or any text editor.


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