2013 Panasonic Settings/Issues Thread - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 3481 Old 05-06-2013, 11:20 PM
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I ran the WOW disc after inputting D-nice's settings and was able to improve the results a fair bit.

The colors were a bit washed out and there was too much black clipping with d-nice's settings, but after playing around with brightness/contrast/color/tint I have some more pop (without anything being overly saturated/vivid). I was able to get the chrome/hue test to work with the blue lens, but I'm still struggling with brightness/contrast on the black and white checkerboards so they hide the squares/stars that are too black and white respectively.

Nevertheless, the image looks phenomenal so far! I can't wait to watch Life of Pi tomorrow.
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post #542 of 3481 Old 05-07-2013, 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted by wattheF View Post

Anyone????

Quote:
Originally Posted by wattheF

So when I get my new plasma delivered should I immediately run slides to check for screen uniformity issues and dead pixels before signing off on it? Is this smart to do or am I just opening up myself to seeing something I normally wouldn't and tormenting myself?

The reason I ask is because I am interested in a 60"ST60 and I have heard that many ST60 panels have a very faint vertical line on the right side but it isn't visible with normal content only slides.


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I wouldn't worry too much about that vertical line on the right side of the display. I have it on mine, noticed it while I was running the prep slides.. haven't seen that line or even thought about it since cool.gif

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post #543 of 3481 Old 05-07-2013, 12:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcazes View Post

I ran the WOW disc after inputting D-nice's settings and was able to improve the results a fair bit.
D-Nice defines his settings, if you follow his instructions, as a good starting point.
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post #544 of 3481 Old 05-07-2013, 12:56 AM
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Basically I'm a nerd.
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post #545 of 3481 Old 05-07-2013, 01:49 AM
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For Dnice slides,
In hdmi input, should the HDMI/DVI RGB range all be set to "standard (16-235)?

and hdmi content type should all be under auto?
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post #546 of 3481 Old 05-07-2013, 01:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dabearfan101 View Post

For Dnice slides,
In hdmi input, should the HDMI/DVI RGB range all be set to "standard (16-235)?

and hdmi content type should all be under auto?

Yeah you got it - standard and auto

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post #547 of 3481 Old 05-07-2013, 05:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcazes View Post

I ran the WOW disc after inputting D-nice's settings and was able to improve the results a fair bit.

The colors were a bit washed out and there was too much black clipping with d-nice's settings

Exactly what I am experiencing and I know each panel's configuration will be slightly different, good to know the WOW disc will help even out those issues. Should be close to 100 hours this upcoming weekend, will use the BD then. I don't plan on getting a professional calibration done, I figure between the settings in this thread and now, the WOW BD, should be good enough. Just out of the box, and then with these settings, the PQ has amazed us coming from a 2008 Panny. I was OCD with my 2008 Panny, this time around, going to calibrate once and then maybe in a couple months and try to simply enjoy my TV for once.

About IR, stay away from the master burn in thread, reading that thread will make you never use your TV, I am not saying IR/Burn-in cannot happen but man some people read way too much into it. It has to detract from the TV, IR is normal and part of owning a plasma it comes and goes. As long as you mix up your content which most people do, no one only watches one thing all the time, you will be fine. As far as burn in, wont happen unless you leave the TV on static images for days. Like I said I am not going to OCD this TV, just gonna sit back and enjoy it for once.
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post #548 of 3481 Old 05-07-2013, 12:33 PM
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Hey Guys a newbie, have a question.
I ran thru the prep steps for 100 hours, unfortunately for the first 70-80 hours the picture mode switched from custom to standard before I noticed it (by reading thru the forums). Will this impact the picture quality using D-Nice custom setting? I am noticing that the picture appears a 'bit' on the darker side (I would like it to be more brighter) and don't know if this is expected or not? Also what can I do to fix it.

appreciate any input/help.
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post #549 of 3481 Old 05-07-2013, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by pritams View Post

Hey Guys a newbie, have a question.
I ran thru the prep steps for 100 hours, unfortunately for the first 70-80 hours the picture mode switched from custom to standard before I noticed it (by reading thru the forums). Will this impact the picture quality using D-Nice custom setting? I am noticing that the picture appears a 'bit' on the darker side (I would like it to be more brighter) and don't know if this is expected or not? Also what can I do to fix it.

appreciate any input/help.
His settings are kind of dark in general compared to others that are out there.
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post #550 of 3481 Old 05-07-2013, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pritams View Post

Hey Guys a newbie, have a question.
I ran thru the prep steps for 100 hours, unfortunately for the first 70-80 hours the picture mode switched from custom to standard before I noticed it (by reading thru the forums). Will this impact the picture quality using D-Nice custom setting? I am noticing that the picture appears a 'bit' on the darker side (I would like it to be more brighter) and don't know if this is expected or not? Also what can I do to fix it.

appreciate any input/help.

Don't worry about it now, just change to his recommended settings if you're still running slides..

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post #551 of 3481 Old 05-07-2013, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pritams View Post

Hey Guys a newbie, have a question.
I ran thru the prep steps for 100 hours, unfortunately for the first 70-80 hours the picture mode switched from custom to standard before I noticed it (by reading thru the forums). Will this impact the picture quality using D-Nice custom setting? I am noticing that the picture appears a 'bit' on the darker side (I would like it to be more brighter) and don't know if this is expected or not? Also what can I do to fix it.

appreciate any input/help.

Increase contrast.
Lower gamma
Increase panel brightness
Doing those things will defeat the purpose of running slides though. You might as well not run them & just plug the settings in & then tweak the things I listed above.
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post #552 of 3481 Old 05-07-2013, 01:35 PM
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What does increasing or decreasing the gamma do (in a broad sense)
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post #553 of 3481 Old 05-07-2013, 03:40 PM
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Think of it this way: Brightness controls the black level, Contrast controls the white level... between these two, they control the dynamic range of your display. Gamma controls the brightness in-between. A higher gamma will have less shadow detail but a more contrasty picture. A lower gamma will generally be brighter and have more shadow detail, but it will be relatively washed out.

Everyone should note that D-Nice's settings were calibrated at a specific brightness and gamma that may not necessarily work well in your viewing environment. Changes may be needed to better suit your environment, but doing so will affect other aspects of the picture.
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post #554 of 3481 Old 05-07-2013, 03:57 PM
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Thank you for the great explanation!!!
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post #555 of 3481 Old 05-07-2013, 04:24 PM
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Hey so I have an incoming ZT60 - I posted int he 4:4:4 thread but this forum has way more action now!

So I spent a lot of time reading up on this in the last 24 hours and I have come to some conclusions I am not sure of, I have a usage model I will describe and I would love to have a bit of "ya that makes sense" from someone more comfortable dealing with these matters...

I will have an STB for my service provider and an HTPC connected to it.

My HTPC will also serve as my bluray player.

As per the HDTVTest review and various readings about Panasonic plasmas, they have some very mild issue maybe only nerds care about dealing with 4:4:4. So when I connect my HTPC I want to have confirmation on what the best approach might be given my priorities. My goal is actually to have the best picture quality for Blurays and Bluray 3D, which I understand is a 4:2:0 format - I am less fussed for games (my main PC is in my office) and desktop. People are saying that its best to use 4:2:2 as this is closest to the Bluray format, and will result in the least artefacts.

Also mixed into this is the colourspace being 0-255 and 16-230, and YCrCb vs RGB.

Ok so if I care most about how my ZT plays blurays from my HTPC/Nvidia card, shouldn't I set the following in my nvidia driver:

YCrCb - 4:2:2 and/or RGB (16-235)??

OR - is there a way to have my cake and eat it too with this display? Is it possible to select 4:4:4/0-255 and get better games/desktops with only that minor panasonic issue introducing a barely noticeable problem that won't effect the bluray content? I am thinking this panasonic issue may introduce issues on BluRays, even if it is a 4:2:2/16-230 source because that source is being passed through a 4:4:4/0-255 to the Panasonic TV, which sees it as 4:4:4/0-255, applies its video processing and then messes it up again?

Am I right to think that purest fidelity would mean I go RGB 16-235 or YCrCb 4:2:2 so that my BluRay content gets passed to the TV with a minimum of processing required before it gets presented on the display?

I probably have a few facts wrong so please correct me and I thank you in advance for taking the time to do so!
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post #556 of 3481 Old 05-07-2013, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HD2Blu View Post

I think you should run the slides to check the TV - it will give you peace of mind. However, I don't know if your installers will let you do that "before" signing off on it. You can try. I looked over the panel as best I could and then signed off knowing I have a return period and I was going to check the TV out immensely during the return period.
I experienced the faint line too (with the slides) - but you said it yourself - it is FAINT and you can't see it during actual content. Don't worry about it. I am extremely anal about the smallest imperfections - the faint line is not an issue with me. I suspect you won't have an issue with it either.

I too see it but it is not an issue for normal viewing.
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post #557 of 3481 Old 05-08-2013, 12:45 AM
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@praktik

On my HTPC blu-ray player setup I have my AMD/ATI card outputting RGB Full (0-255) then have my S60 HDMI range set to Nonstandard, then I use MadVR (video renderer) which is set to PC Levels (0-255) and voila, best quality for blu-ray's. (note, you will also need a way to decrypt said blu-ray's on your computer to be able to view them...)

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1357375/advanced-mpc-hc-setup-guide is a good guide.

You don't get 3d out of this setup though, so at that point, no idea what software you plan to use, and how to set it to the best quality settings.

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post #558 of 3481 Old 05-08-2013, 05:18 AM
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Ya I'll probably sucker in for PowerDVD and have heard it works well for both... will probably look into files as well but I am happy with legit content for the moment (I just discovered there are 3d files floating around! - having discs lets me trade better w/ my dad though who isn't as setup for advanced file playing as I might be)

Just confusing - hard to find what the issue might be w/ Panasonic and 4:4:4 - the HDTVTest review mentioned some Panasonic video-processing issue with a very minor introduced problem, however the avforums review of the ZT mentioned how it could take a European 4:4:4 signal with aplomb... i am ready to give HDTVtest more credence because it seems that review had a firmer technical foundation. That said I am not sure if I am worrying about a problem that is so minor most people won't care, or a problem that would actually introduce an issue such that I couldn't enjoy a game or browse the web. My googling has turned up a lot of confusion and not much out there saying: hey here is the issue 2012 Pannys had w/ 4:4:4.

I am also curious about this:

- If I set it to RGB Full - 0-255 on the output, and ensure my player is set to same setting, but I am playing content from a Bluray source which will be 16-235, does the bluray get converted to 0-255 to exit the HDMI on my computer? Or does a 0-255 connection pass 16-235 through untouched, such that I can get a "best of both worlds" effect, 0-255 for desktop/games with Blurays going through @ native 16-235?? If I have it this way 4-5 months from now when I am getting calibrated, would there be an issue my calibrator should be aware of caused by passing bluray through an RGB Full/4:4:4 connection??

I guess you are enjoying blurays just fine this way aren't you fairchild99? But I wonder if the bluray isn't going from two conversions in your setup, one from 16-235 inside your computer to 0-255 on its way out, converted back to 16-235 inside your TV cause of the HDMI "nonstandard" setting?

Seems this S60 user is getting good results for Avatar with the entire chain being 16-235 and there is other discussion on the same page: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1461177/official-panasonic-s60-series-discussion-thread/1050#post_23257176

And it seems someone else sees identical performance when the source is set to full and the tv set to nonstandard - compared to setting entire chain to 16-235 - and adding into this -> What impact would the PureDirect (or similarly named) mode on the ZT60 accomplish in these settings?
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post #559 of 3481 Old 05-08-2013, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by praktik View Post

I guess you are enjoying blurays just fine this way aren't you fairchild99? But I wonder if the bluray isn't going from two conversions in your setup, one from 16-235 inside your computer to 0-255 on its way out, converted back to 16-235 inside your TV cause of the HDMI "nonstandard" setting?

Again, it depends on how your source deals with the conversions. In my chain everything is untouched...

Only the video renderer does the conversion and passes through the 16-235 (internally it sends the proper 16-235 signal), and since it has direct access to the display and the display is already 0-255 and the renderer is 0-255 and the video card which ultimately does any final conversions is also set to 0-255, then that is the most direct path. This setup also leaves the desktop and any games or programs you access have correct brightness with no loss of shadow detail.

Again, I don't know what would be the best option if you are using a program like PowerDVD, since I don't know how it does it's conversions or if it has any options to change.

Alternatively I had an equally nice signal with my TV let to Standard (16-235), my video card set to RGB Limited (16-235) and my video renderer still set to 0-255. In this setup I also had proper desktop and game brightness but there is one conversion which has to be performed by the renderer since it is still set to 0-255 and if I set it to 16-235 then there is double expansion performed and the brightness is off and the image is washed out.

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post #560 of 3481 Old 05-08-2013, 02:26 PM
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Great! I guess I am still confused about how 16-235 sources get passed through connections/settings of 0-255 - you are saying you notice no problems but I am reading that this may introduce some banding on gradients and affect calibration methods due to the way video gets converted to 0-255 in these contexts. This may be the kind of issue that is technical but not so perceptible - being only an issue on calibration day maybe...

I am getting to a few options after more reading and PMing with a helpful AVS member:

Option A: go 16-235 through the whole chain to preserve optimum video quality, suffer a bit in games/desktop
Option B: try one HDMI connection that is straight 16-235 in the entire chain and a separate DVI-HDMI to another HDMI input on TV and have THAT one set to RGB full - switch modes when I am watching video vs desktop/gaming....
Option C: one HDMI connection @ RGB Full, will have some banding on gradients introduced when bluray content is converted to 0-255, but this may not be very noticeable and only introduces potential problems on calibration day

I am interested in trying B, and may go A if I find I am not overly fussed with the crushed whites/blacks in desktop/games

i wonder if the shootout this weekend will go over some of these issues in how the different displays handle these kinds of permutations of setups for HTPCs/HDMI connections?
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post #561 of 3481 Old 05-08-2013, 04:18 PM
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I'm going to preface this by stating an ignorance of AV equipment, but an abundance of knowledge regarding computers and how they deal with color. So just know that's where I'm coming from.

I can see literally only 1 way to pass 16-235 data from a PC through a chain of devices set to 0-255 without damaging it. If any conversion is done on the digital color data, you will lose accuracy due to the integer math involved. The key is to remember that a 16-235 signal is still a 0-255 signal, the numbers below 16 and above 235 simply aren't being used (sometimes they're used for hiding "debug" data in a broadcast that viewers won't see). If a 16-235 frame comes into a device set to 0-255 input and output, it should go back out the other end unharmed.

-PC Set to output full range 0-255. If you're using HDMI on a modern version of Windows you'll need a bit of a registry tweak for this, which I can link to if you're interested.
-All intermediate devices between PC and TV must also be set to handle 0-255.
-This one's the key: SOFTWARE set to output 16-235 WITHOUT CONVERTING IT to match your computer's video mode. Settings for your software may vary but I'd expect all high quality DVD and BR playing software has options for this. Many video players will want to default to outputting whatever your video card is asking for, which is the wrong choice in this case. Other players simply don't have an option and will always do the conversion to whatever the PC is outputting (iTunes).

So think about what happens now. The video card gets a frame with color data between 16-235. The video card passes on that data without altering it because as far as it knows there simply weren't any brighter or darker colors in that frame. It has no reason to decide it should perform a conversion on this; only the software reading the video from the disk/source file can know that it was intended to be in 16-235 range, so that's where you need to stop the conversion from happening.

The frame gets to an intermediate device. This is where my AV ignorance comes in, because I don't know what you'd want between the source and the display, but let's say you have some kind of device in the chain that takes the signal in and passes it out the other end to the TV. This device simply needs to take the incoming signal as 0-255 and pass it back out the other side still in 0-255. No digital conversion having been done, the data will be unharmed.

The final step is that the TV receives the signal. It's a 0-255 signal technically, but it doesn't matter because all the color data is still in the 16-235 range. And as I said at the beginning, a 16-235 signal is just a 0-255 signal that simply doesn't use the extra range. So what we have here is, for all intents, a 16-235 signal that has gone through zero conversion. All you have to do is toggle your TV over to 16-235 mode, and then back to 0-255 mode when you play games or do anything that uses the full RGB range.


The reason you can't let anything do conversion of the numbers if you're concerned with 100% accuracy:

It's a simple issue of integer math. RGB 24bit (sometimes called 32-bit at the rendering level because of alpha channels) essentially means you use 3 8-bit unsigned integers to store color data. Each one can have a value from 0-255 because that's the limit of 8 bits. If your video file contains data between 16 and 235 with 16 being defined as black you're going to get some math errors when you do the conversion.

200 is 184 higher than 16, in other words a value of 200 in the source video is 184 above the defined level of black. However, Just sending 184 to the TV isn't a safe way to do this conversion. If we do that we'll end up with "white" being sent as 219, which the TV (being in full range mode) will render as a fairly bright grey. Instead we need to do this:

219 is the total range of a "limited" RGB signal. 184 is ~84% of 219, so the value we're trying to send is 84% of white. 84% of 255 is 214.2. See the problem? We'll round down to 214, but it's not QUITE the same value. No amount of math can solve the issue because at the end you have to convert back to an integer that fits into 8 bits. So there's no lossless conversion from 16-235 to 0-255.

How much do these errors matter? Probably not enough to actually see. But why risk it when there's a relatively easy way to avoid any conversion and get the raw data through your chain?

By the way, I realize I could have said that in a simpler way (software outputs limited, PC outputs Full, TV set to limited), but since there was confusion I wanted to cover it step by step.
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post #562 of 3481 Old 05-08-2013, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

In the PC world it's best to output 0-255 whenever possible because no graphics chip can output native 16-235. I'm not sure about PowerDVD either, but some renderers can introduce a lot of banding regardless of what range you use, because again, GPUs can't output native 16-235 so things get expanded anyway.

When I put my GT430 into "Limited (16-235)" mode, and I set XBMC to DXVA2 mode, and I view things like AVS709HD's "Black Clipping" pattern, it is consistent with WMC and my Bluray player. Furthermore, when I take a screenshot, I find the background is RGB(0,0,0) and the RGB values for the bars reflect the numbers they are labeled with, 1-24 IIRC. The same thing applies on the other end for whites. So this would seem to indicate that in Limited (16-235) mode, the GT430 is outputting exactly what is contained in the pattern without doing any expansion, and I can't reconcile what you said with what I observed.

OTOH, things are very different when I set the GT430 to "Full (0-255)" mode. When I do that, BTB and WTW are lost, and this is reflected in the pixel values in screenshots. In this mode, the card is expanding 16-235 to 0-255. losing values < 16 and > 235 in the process.

NB: I don't install renderers or codec packs, nor will I ever again install PowerDVD or its ilk (last time was 2008 or so). I'm talking about a very vanilla GT430 installation using WMC for TV and XBMC for other video.
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post #563 of 3481 Old 05-08-2013, 04:28 PM
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In the PC world, it's best to output 0-255 RGB because that's what graphic chips render everything at natively...no GPU can output native YCbCr. Blu-Ray players are a different story.

Most video renderers do a low precision / low quality YCbCr -> RGB conversion which often causes banding. MadVR does this in high precision / high quality and minimizes banding. Plus it has a bunch of options for high quality chroma upsampling and image scaling. If you use madVR, it's best to have everything in the chain set to 0-255 so that it has more data to work with. I recommend reading through this thread for information about 16-235 vs 0-255.
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post #564 of 3481 Old 05-08-2013, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

When I put my GT430 into "Limited (16-235)" mode, and I set XBMC to DXVA2 mode, and I view things like AVS709HD's "Black Clipping" pattern, it is consistent with WMC and my Bluray player. Furthermore, when I take a screenshot, I find the background is RGB(0,0,0) and the RGB values for the bars reflect the numbers they are labeled with, 1-24 IIRC. The same thing applies on the other end for whites. So this would seem to indicate that in Limited (16-235) mode, the GT430 is outputting exactly what is contained in the pattern without doing any expansion, and I can't reconcile what you said with what I observed.

OTOH, things are very different when I set the GT430 to "Full (0-255)" mode. When I do that, BTB and WTW are lost, and this is reflected in the pixel values in screenshots. In this mode, the card is expanding 16-235 to 0-255. losing values < 16 and > 235 in the process.

NB: I don't install renderers or codec packs, nor will I ever again install PowerDVD or its ilk (last time was 2008 or so). I'm talking about a very vanilla GT430 installation using WMC for TV and XBMC for other video.

The card isn't expanding the color data itself. Think about what that would imply: If you put up a dark grey image on the desktop of values (r16,g16,b16) in 0-255 range it would make it black on a normal PC monitor (0-255) if it did this. It's your video playback software that's doing it; it's automatically converting your video to the mode the video card is currently set to because for most users that's what makes sense. For example, iTunes does this with no option to turn if off because otherwise literally ever movie or TV show played through it on a normal PC monitor would have grey blacks and grey whites. A good piece of software should have an option to disable any color conversion.
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post #565 of 3481 Old 05-08-2013, 04:30 PM
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I can see literally only 1 way to pass 16-235 data from a PC through a chain of devices set to 0-255 without damaging it. If any conversion is done on the digital color data, you will lose accuracy due to the integer math involved. The key is to remember that a 16-235 signal is still a 0-255 signal, the numbers below 16 and above 235 simply aren't being used (sometimes they're used for hiding "debug" data in a broadcast that viewers won't see). If a 16-235 frame comes into a device set to 0-255 input and output, it should go back out the other end unharmed..

OK you finally did it! Thats the piece of info I didn't appreciate and it's making sense now some of the comments from my new friend who I PMd with, who has 0-255 set everywhere except his player and said it looks ok... I was worried that there would still be some element gone wrong that was maybe not at threshold to bother anyone, but it could very well be the 16-235 signal is going through fine, and not being altered because of exactly what you describe!

What this means then is my best option is probably just a tweak to option C - go RGB full everywhere except my software! - this means I can have my cake and eat it too without needing two connections to my display or any sacrifices to any usage type (bluray/desktop/games).

Wow it took a while, but i got there in the end with some help from this forum and your piece, headlesschickens, was the final piece!!

EDIT: hey sawfish - thanks for your help over PM earlier!
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post #566 of 3481 Old 05-08-2013, 04:35 PM
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oh headlesschickens - i absolutely need to do the registry tweak, even under win 7? I've seen that mentioned but was hoping my Nvidia driver setting would be enough from their control panel...
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post #567 of 3481 Old 05-08-2013, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

When I put my GT430 into "Limited (16-235)" mode, and I set XBMC to DXVA2 mode, and I view things like AVS709HD's "Black Clipping" pattern, it is consistent with WMC and my Bluray player. Furthermore, when I take a screenshot, I find the background is RGB(0,0,0) and the RGB values for the bars reflect the numbers they are labeled with, 1-24 IIRC. The same thing applies on the other end for whites. So this would seem to indicate that in Limited (16-235) mode, the GT430 is outputting exactly what is contained in the pattern without doing any expansion, and I can't reconcile what you said with what I observed.

OTOH, things are very different when I set the GT430 to "Full (0-255)" mode. When I do that, BTB and WTW are lost, and this is reflected in the pixel values in screenshots. In this mode, the card is expanding 16-235 to 0-255. losing values < 16 and > 235 in the process.
I deleted the post you quoted and re-worded it better.

Anyway..

What I meant was that when you select YCbCr or 16-235 RGB output on a PC, it will internally get converted to RGB 0-255 regardless because that's what all GPUs render everything at natively. If you select 16-235, levels get compressed back to 16-235. That's why I recommend outputting RGB 0-255 from PCs (if your display is capable of accepting this range that is), to avoid any unnecessary conversions. Most GPUs do a low quality YCbCr to RGB conversion that usually causes a lot of banding; madVR does this in much higher precision and it is pretty much the quality standard in the HTPC world for video renderers.

Yes by outputting 0-255 you lose BTB/WTW information, but this is not valid video information anyway. Anything below 16 is meant to be black/not visible and anything above 235 are usually just ringing artifacts.

Again, I highly recommend reading the thread I linked to in my above post regarding 16-235 vs 0-255 for PCs.
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post #568 of 3481 Old 05-08-2013, 04:52 PM
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oh headlesschickens - i absolutely need to do the registry tweak, even under win 7? I've seen that mentioned but was hoping my Nvidia driver setting would be enough from their control panel...

Are you referring to the setting under "Adjust Video Color Settings" -> "Advanced" ? That setting only applies to video software color conversion (in fact that's how you change the setting I kept saying would be in the video player software itself these days, whoops). I did make one error though, which is that I believe this is actually an NVidia thing, not Windows. So if you have an NV card then you do need the registry tweak. I don't know what options AMD cards have for this. NV drivers will put HDMI devices in 16-235 mode and all others into 0-255 by default, so you do need the registry tweak to sort this all out.
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The card isn't expanding the color data itself. Think about what that would imply: If you put up a dark grey image on the desktop of values (r16,g16,b16) in 0-255 range it would make it black on a normal PC monitor (0-255) if it did this. It's your video playback software that's doing it; it's automatically converting your video to the mode the video card is currently set to because for most users that's what makes sense. For example, iTunes does this with no option to turn if off because otherwise literally ever movie or TV show played through it on a normal PC monitor would have grey blacks and grey whites. A good piece of software should have an option to disable any color conversion.

Okay, I sort of half got this wrong. The default setting of "Adjust Video Color Settings" -> "Advanced" is to let the video player decide, but it seems like instead of trying to hunt for this setting in your player software (and it may not exist), it's easier to just select "With the NVIDIA settings" and set it to "Limited (16-235)." I realize that's confusing since I just said you want the video output in Full, but this is only the setting for video rendering at the software level. By selecting "Limited" you'll stop video playback from doing the conversion even if the software doesn't have such a setting. It should work with most video players, except iTunes which, being from Apple, decides to play by its own rules. Definitely worked with VLC, which is the most advanced player I have since I don't have a BR drive in my system.

Sorry if this is turning confusing, I'll try to sum it up a bit.

-Get your PC outputting 0-255 mode. To make sure it's working, put your TV in 0-255 range and then put up a black image on your desktop. If it's real black, you're good. If it's dark grey, you'll need the registry tweak.
-Make the setting change I mentioned above. NV Control Panel -> Video -> Adjust Video Color Settings -> With the NVIDIA settings -> Advanced -> Limited (16-235). This will only impact video processing, not video card output.
-Make sure any intermediate devices between the PC and the TV are set to input and output 0-255 without doing conversions.
-Set your TV back to 16-235 mode when you want to watch a video. Leave it in 0-255 mode when you want to play a game or just have accurate colors for general PC stuff.
-Don't use iTunes because it won't respect your video conversion settings (someone might have a hack for solving that, but I'm not aware of it).
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Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

I deleted the post you quoted and re-worded it better.

Anyway..

What I meant was that when you select YCbCr or 16-235 RGB output on a PC, it will internally get converted to RGB 0-255 regardless because that's what all GPUs render everything at natively. If you select 16-235, levels get compressed back to 16-235. That's why I recommend outputting RGB 0-255 from PCs (if your display is capable of accepting this range that is), to avoid any unnecessary conversions. Most GPUs do a low quality YCbCr to RGB conversion that usually causes a lot of banding; madVR does this in much higher precision and it is pretty much the quality standard in the HTPC world for video renderers.

Yes by outputting 0-255 you lose BTB/WTW information, but this is not valid video information anyway. Anything below 16 is meant to be black/not visible and anything above 235 are usually just ringing artifacts.

Again, I highly recommend reading the thread I linked to in my above post regarding 16-235 vs 0-255 for PCs.

You do not lose BTB/WTW information unless the video software is stripping it. And it might, I don't actually know. Just saying that when the video player is set to 16-235 mode and the PC is set to 0-255, the BTB/WTW info should theoretically still be in there unless the software is throwing it out. You won't actually see it if your TV is set to 16-235 and calibrated right, but then that's kind of the point to begin with - maximum possible range between black and white.
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post #569 of 3481 Old 05-08-2013, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by headlesschickens View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

When I put my GT430 into "Limited (16-235)" mode, and I set XBMC to DXVA2 mode, and I view things like AVS709HD's "Black Clipping" pattern, it is consistent with WMC and my Bluray player. Furthermore, when I take a screenshot, I find the background is RGB(0,0,0) and the RGB values for the bars reflect the numbers they are labeled with, 1-24 IIRC. The same thing applies on the other end for whites. So this would seem to indicate that in Limited (16-235) mode, the GT430 is outputting exactly what is contained in the pattern without doing any expansion, and I can't reconcile what you said with what I observed.

OTOH, things are very different when I set the GT430 to "Full (0-255)" mode. When I do that, BTB and WTW are lost, and this is reflected in the pixel values in screenshots. In this mode, the card is expanding 16-235 to 0-255. losing values < 16 and > 235 in the process.

NB: I don't install renderers or codec packs, nor will I ever again install PowerDVD or its ilk (last time was 2008 or so). I'm talking about a very vanilla GT430 installation using WMC for TV and XBMC for other video.

The card isn't expanding the color data itself. Think about what that would imply: If you put up a dark grey image on the desktop of values (r16,g16,b16) in 0-255 range it would make it black on a normal PC monitor (0-255) if it did this.

I don't know what that means. An "image" is not video, and I don't know what you mean further defining RGB(16,16,16) as in "0-255" range. All RGB values are in 0-255 range. If I were to play video containing RGB(16,16,16) with my GT430 configured to "Limited (16-235)", and my TV was configured to 16-235, it would appear black assuming the TV is properly calibrated. With the TV set to 0-255 or on a normal PC monitor, it would appear gray.
Quote:
It's your video playback software that's doing it; it's automatically converting your video to the mode the video card is currently set to because for most users that's what makes sense. For example, iTunes does this with no option to turn if off because otherwise literally ever movie or TV show played through it on a normal PC monitor would have grey blacks and grey whites. A good piece of software should have an option to disable any color conversion.

As I recall, XBMC behaved quite differently with DXVA2 disabled, which I believe means it is in software mode. Enabling DXVA2 causes it to use hardware acceleration and respond to changes in the Nvidia control panel between 16-235 and 0-255 exactly as WMC does and as I described in my previous message. Is it the card doing the conversion (in 0-255 mode) or just the software respecting the setting? I don't know, and that's not really what I was getting at. My post was directed at the statement "In the PC world it's best to output 0-255 whenever possible because no graphics chip can output native 16-235. I'm not sure about PowerDVD either, but some renderers can introduce a lot of banding regardless of what range you use, because again, GPUs can't output native 16-235 so things get expanded anyway." Again, I can't reconcile that statement with what I observed. For my GT430, I think "Limited (16-235)" is the best choice for the software I use because it preserves BTB and WTW and acts like BD players, Roku, etc, and the only reason I would consider using 0-255 is for consistency with the desktop.
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post #570 of 3481 Old 05-08-2013, 04:58 PM
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You do not lose BTB/WTW information unless the video software is stripping it. And it might, I don't actually know. Just saying that when the video player is set to 16-235 mode and the PC is set to 0-255, the BTB/WTW info should theoretically still be in there unless the software is throwing it out.
When you output 0-255, set the video renderer/player to 0-255 and set your display to 0-255, it will not display BTB/WTW. I was under the assumption that's what he meant. If you output 0-255, set the video renderer/player to 16-235 and your display to 0-255, you will see BTB/WTW information. I see this is essentially what you're recommending. If you're using madVR, personally I disagree and I think you should output 0-255 for video as well... even the creator of the renderer (madshi) recommends 0-255. If you're not using madVR, then it doesn't really matter I guess.

All of this is discussed in the thread I linked to above.
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