Official ST60 input lag thread - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 1315 Old 05-28-2013, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

I thought it was common knowledge that the 10 point gamma on this generation of Panny isn't working properly? It makes calibration using it a huge PITA. Plus, the S60/64 also has the partial CMS. So that's why the ST60's additional features are pretty much irrelevant at this point.

They work. When calibrating you have to take measurements, go in the menu & make adjustments, then back out of the menu & remeasure. If you take a measurement while inside of the settings menu, it will differ then what you measure outside of it. PIA.

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post #632 of 1315 Old 05-28-2013, 07:55 AM
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But here's the thing. The 3D on the ST60 isn't top notch. So, you're spending money for a feature that isn't going to be performing optimally and when 3D becomes more common, it won't be as enjoyable an experience.

That is true. But if the 3D isn't top notch what TV would you recommend for 3D that isn't insanely expensive?

I was under the impression that 3D on any of the TV's out there right now is not optimal and probably won't be for another few years. It sounds like LEDs have better 3D but not near as good of picture quality.

Also based on what ive read it sounds like how game manufacture or movie producer does 3D within the movie or game makes a huge difference as to 3D quality.

You make some great points Moonchilde, I appreciate your feedback. I guess I am at the point where I am not sure what to do. I can still cancel my ST60 order. But I would assume itll be shipping today.

I will be going from a 40 inch tv to a 60 inch so thats 20 extra inches so i dont think that 5 will really be a huge deal to me. Ive compared 55-60-65 inch tvs next to each other cause there is a magnolia near my house and the difference in 5 inches doesnt seem that pronounced to me.

The difference in price between the S64 and ST60 is only 100 bucks for me. 3D doesn't sound optimal but it doesn't sound terrible either. I mean either way I dont think I benefit much. If I get the S64 then I have no 3D and wont for another 5 years. If I buy the ST60 I will have good 3D albeit not optimal for the next 5 years. The thing is I am not sure how I can get any TV now and then upgrade within the near future without losing a lot of money. For some reason I doubt I would even be able to sell an ST60 for 1000 in like 2 years time.

The input lag concerns me as well but there are way to many conflicting reports and plenty of ppl have said they dont notice it and ive seen a couple videos where it doesn't seen noticeable to me.
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post #633 of 1315 Old 05-28-2013, 09:43 AM
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Panny could fix the whole input lag easily. Just release a patch to disable smart features when gaming mode is turned off. That would solve everything and they could probably easily do it by adding one line of code.
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post #634 of 1315 Old 05-28-2013, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by davelanger View Post

Panny could fix the whole input lag easily. Just release a patch to disable smart features when gaming mode is turned off. That would solve everything and they could probably easily do it by adding one line of code.

Do you mean while gaming mode is on?
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post #635 of 1315 Old 05-28-2013, 10:59 AM
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Do you mean while gaming mode is on?
Pretty much. Even in game mode you still have apps running in the background.
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post #636 of 1315 Old 05-28-2013, 11:01 AM
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Pretty much. Even in game mode you still have apps running in the background.

Oh yeah I don't see why tv manufactures are so behind on updates and whatnot of their expensive devices. It's pretty stupid. If you're gonna make a smart tv you should be updating it whenever a problem arises within the first year as far as I'm concerned
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post #637 of 1315 Old 05-28-2013, 01:53 PM
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I can get the gt50 60 inch for 1650 from my local shop. Should I take that over the st60? How do they compare?
They also have a pn60e7000 for 1425
Its the display models
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post #638 of 1315 Old 05-28-2013, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by sealteamz6 View Post

I can get the gt50 60 inch for 1650 from my local shop. Should I take that over the st60? How do they compare?
They also have a pn60e7000 for 1425
Its the display models

You'll get the same answer in this thread as you will in the other. If they are display models, it's not even a question, the ST60, hands down. If they're all brand new in the box & you'll use the tv mainly for viewing films/tv, then it's still the ST60, hands down. However if gaming is important, then you might want to look at the other two models.

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post #639 of 1315 Old 05-28-2013, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by cadett View Post

You'll get the same answer in this thread as you will in the other. If they are display models, it's not even a question, the ST60, hands down. If they're all brand new in the box & you'll use the tv mainly for viewing films/tv, then it's still the ST60, hands down. However if gaming is important, then you might want to look at the other two models.

I see. I have a general idea of why a display model is a no go, but may I ask why since im not quite certain.

I love gaming. And I do game. However, my life of being a college student working 20 hours a week sometimes more while taking 3 classes grants me very little time to actually play video games so based on how much I actually play them I wouldn't say its a huge deal or anything
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post #640 of 1315 Old 05-28-2013, 02:12 PM
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I see. I have a general idea of why a display model is a no go, but may I ask why since im not quite certain.

I love gaming. And I do game. However, my life of being a college student working 20 hours a week sometimes more while taking 3 classes grants me very little time to actually play video games so based on how much I actually play them I wouldn't say its a huge deal or anything

Because the prices you quoted don't really reflect a "good" deal. Worth jumping on over the ST60 imo.

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post #641 of 1315 Old 05-28-2013, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
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They work. When calibrating you have to take measurements, go in the menu & make adjustments, then back out of the menu & remeasure. If you take a measurement while inside of the settings menu, it will differ then what you measure outside of it. PIA.

I was pretty sure one of the respected calibrators said the 10 point controls were a problem, especially compared to last year where they worked properly. That kind of makes them not ideal to use, and if you can get just as good a cal and an easier cal by using 2 point then why bother wasting time and effort trying to get the 10 point to work, and then have it shift in a month?
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That is true. But if the 3D isn't top notch what TV would you recommend for 3D that isn't insanely expensive?

I was under the impression that 3D on any of the TV's out there right now is not optimal and probably won't be for another few years. It sounds like LEDs have better 3D but not near as good of picture quality.

Also based on what ive read it sounds like how game manufacture or movie producer does 3D within the movie or game makes a huge difference as to 3D quality.

You make some great points Moonchilde, I appreciate your feedback. I guess I am at the point where I am not sure what to do. I can still cancel my ST60 order. But I would assume itll be shipping today.

I will be going from a 40 inch tv to a 60 inch so thats 20 extra inches so i dont think that 5 will really be a huge deal to me. Ive compared 55-60-65 inch tvs next to each other cause there is a magnolia near my house and the difference in 5 inches doesnt seem that pronounced to me.

The difference in price between the S64 and ST60 is only 100 bucks for me. 3D doesn't sound optimal but it doesn't sound terrible either. I mean either way I dont think I benefit much. If I get the S64 then I have no 3D and wont for another 5 years. If I buy the ST60 I will have good 3D albeit not optimal for the next 5 years. The thing is I am not sure how I can get any TV now and then upgrade within the near future without losing a lot of money. For some reason I doubt I would even be able to sell an ST60 for 1000 in like 2 years time.

The input lag concerns me as well but there are way to many conflicting reports and plenty of ppl have said they dont notice it and ive seen a couple videos where it doesn't seen noticeable to me.

I really couldn't tell you what TV to get if you really want 3D and don't have money to spend. It was part of my dilemma as well. Either put up a lot more money for better 3D and PQ, or settle for no 3D and a more responsive display. Wasn't very fun making that decision. The ST60's 3D is ok, but like I said it's at the bottom of the active 3D barrel this year. Say you get a S64, and then use it for 2 years. You could move it to the bedroom and then upgrade as maybe you'll be making more money by that time, and can get a TV that has even better 3D than all the best 3D displays today. Or, you can still get the ST60, enjoy the 3D for what it is, deal with some input lag, and still upgrade in a few years and move the TV to another room. I wouldn't worry about the deprecating value of the TV, I personally have never sold an older TV to make up for a new TV's cost. I've either donated it (old CRT's, but not my beloved XBR910) or moved it to another room. If I tried to sell any of my displays I'd get practically nothing. They have more value to me in my house with little usage than the little amount I'd get towards a newer TV. If you were making yearly upgrades, then I'd recommend recouping some of the cost of a new TV by selling out previous year's model. Otherwise, good luck trying to sell a TV 2 years old.

BTW, what kind of games are you playing? You may or may not notice the lag, depending.
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post #642 of 1315 Old 05-28-2013, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

I was pretty sure one of the respected calibrators said the 10 point controls were a problem, especially compared to last year where they worked properly. That kind of makes them not ideal to use, and if you can get just as good a cal and an easier cal by using 2 point then why bother wasting time and effort trying to get the 10 point to work, and then have it shift in a month?
I really couldn't tell you what TV to get if you really want 3D and don't have money to spend. It was part of my dilemma as well. Either put up a lot more money for better 3D and PQ, or settle for no 3D and a more responsive display. Wasn't very fun making that decision. The ST60's 3D is ok, but like I said it's at the bottom of the active 3D barrel this year. Say you get a S64, and then use it for 2 years. You could move it to the bedroom and then upgrade as maybe you'll be making more money by that time, and can get a TV that has even better 3D than all the best 3D displays today. Or, you can still get the ST60, enjoy the 3D for what it is, deal with some input lag, and still upgrade in a few years and move the TV to another room. I wouldn't worry about the deprecating value of the TV, I personally have never sold an older TV to make up for a new TV's cost. I've either donated it (old CRT's, but not my beloved XBR910) or moved it to another room. If I tried to sell any of my displays I'd get practically nothing. They have more value to me in my house with little usage than the little amount I'd get towards a newer TV. If you were making yearly upgrades, then I'd recommend recouping some of the cost of a new TV by selling out previous year's model. Otherwise, good luck trying to sell a TV 2 years old.

BTW, what kind of games are you playing? You may or may not notice the lag, depending.

I see, well personally I am not a fan of having a tv in other rooms which in my living situation would be the bedroom. I forgot where the quote came from but it goes there are better things to be doing in the bedroom than watching tv hahaha. Anyways I have a 1800 sound system so with that said I never wanna watch tv in my place other than on my sound system. My gf and i currently live with her parents in their addition to their rambler house that her grandpa used to live in so we have a bedroom office living room slash kitchen front door that sorta deal. I have two more years of school left so who knows what will happen at that point. I actually sold my last plasma I bought in 2007 that cost me 1600 for 400 a few months ago so I guess I kinda recouped some of what I spent haha. But yeah I don't really feel I need more than one TV in my life right now and I have plenty of other things to do other than just sit around and watch tv ya know.

I generally play FPS or action adventure games. For example I have a PS3, I also have my gaming PC hooked up to my tv. I enjoy using steams big pic mode and playing on that via a wireless xbox controller or I set up a table with my wireless keyboard and usb extender for my mouse. Games I have been playing as of late include SC2, Far Cry 3, the walking dead, alan wake, fallout 3, bioshock 2. I am into other games like L4D, battlefield, cod. Diablo. Uncharted. So basically I play FPS, Action Adventure, RTS, RPG is about the scope of my game playing which unfortunately I do not have much time in general. I do not play online multiplayer unless its coop like diablo or L4D. I also enjoy playing COOP on one tv with friends sometimes such as Halo or GOW. I also have a full rockband 2 setup so I used to play that alll the time and once in a while I enjoy it. But yeah I dislike online multiplayer. I always get mad when i lose and my emotions get the best of me. Not worth it IMO and I dont have the time to get good so its a waste for me.
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post #643 of 1315 Old 05-28-2013, 04:17 PM - Thread Starter
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I see, well personally I am not a fan of having a tv in other rooms which in my living situation would be the bedroom. I forgot where the quote came from but it goes there are better things to be doing in the bedroom than watching tv hahaha. Anyways I have a 1800 sound system so with that said I never wanna watch tv in my place other than on my sound system. My gf and i currently live with her parents in their addition to their rambler house that her grandpa used to live in so we have a bedroom office living room slash kitchen front door that sorta deal. I have two more years of school left so who knows what will happen at that point. I actually sold my last plasma I bought in 2007 that cost me 1600 for 400 a few months ago so I guess I kinda recouped some of what I spent haha. But yeah I don't really feel I need more than one TV in my life right now and I have plenty of other things to do other than just sit around and watch tv ya know.

I generally play FPS or action adventure games. For example I have a PS3, I also have my gaming PC hooked up to my tv. I enjoy using steams big pic mode and playing on that via a wireless xbox controller or I set up a table with my wireless keyboard and usb extender for my mouse. Games I have been playing as of late include SC2, Far Cry 3, the walking dead, alan wake, fallout 3, bioshock 2. I am into other games like L4D, battlefield, cod. Diablo. Uncharted. So basically I play FPS, Action Adventure, RTS, RPG is about the scope of my game playing which unfortunately I do not have much time in general. I do not play online multiplayer unless its coop like diablo or L4D. I also enjoy playing COOP on one tv with friends sometimes such as Halo or GOW. I also have a full rockband 2 setup so I used to play that alll the time and once in a while I enjoy it. But yeah I dislike online multiplayer. I always get mad when i lose and my emotions get the best of me. Not worth it IMO and I dont have the time to get good so its a waste for me.

PS3 gaming might be a problem since many PS3 games barely manage to keep a stable 30 fps. PC gaming will be ok, since you can get 60 fps out of it (but it will feel like 30 fps) the lag won't feel as bad. Rockband will need calibrated though, just set the slider to about 70 ms and you should be ok. Classic gaming like SNES or NES side scrollers will take a bit of getting used to, and any arcade games if you like playing MAME, that's also going to feel a bit off compared to playing on a low response monitor or CRT.

I'm surprised you sold a 6 year old TV for $400. That's not bad at all.
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post #644 of 1315 Old 05-28-2013, 04:19 PM
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I was pretty sure one of the respected calibrators said the 10 point controls were a problem, especially compared to last year where they worked properly. That kind of makes them not ideal to use, and if you can get just as good a cal and an easier cal by using 2 point then why bother wasting time and effort trying to get the 10 point to work, and then have it shift in a month?

Link please.

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post #645 of 1315 Old 05-28-2013, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

PS3 gaming might be a problem since many PS3 games barely manage to keep a stable 30 fps. PC gaming will be ok, since you can get 60 fps out of it (but it will feel like 30 fps) the lag won't feel as bad. Rockband will need calibrated though, just set the slider to about 70 ms and you should be ok. Classic gaming like SNES or NES side scrollers will take a bit of getting used to, and any arcade games if you like playing MAME, that's also going to feel a bit off compared to playing on a low response monitor or CRT.

I'm surprised you sold a 6 year old TV for $400. That's not bad at all.

Hmm interesting. to be fair I can't say I do that much gaming on my PC. Anytime I can get the game on PC I usually almost always choose that route. I have a Nvidia 560ti in my computer so I can pull some pretty high frame rates on some games. Assuming I get say 100FPS on my pc. Would the game then feel like 50FPS?

And yeah I usually just do the auto calibration for rock band. We are pretty good rock band players...well we used to be hardly play it anymore. But weve never been the type who feel the need to be perfect. More just enjoy it for the social aspect.

And I never actually play side scrollers...I mean I enjoy some like super mario world but not something I ever play really.

Haha yeah it was a Panasonic Plasma THZPZ700U. 42 inches. i bought it in 2007. It was an amazing TV. Back then for like 3-4 years I had a better TV than any one I knew. Even adults I knew. I would say to this day its picture quality still holds up to any budget TV in the 500 dollar range. Which is why I figured I could get what I got for it. It was actually surprisingly easy to get rid of. I just posted on facebook and bam had several ppl interested. I of course made it known that it had cost me 1600 which probably helped justify its 400 price tag in peoples eyes haha.
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post #646 of 1315 Old 05-28-2013, 05:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Once you get past 60 fps I'm not sure if things start to get better, but if you can hit 120 fps then maybe the native input lag would be 2 frames. Still, games are meant for sync with 60 hz, so you may be hitting a ceiling. Although games that run at 30 fps and run without a vsync will feel more responsive because they'll cut frames in half instead of waiting for a frame update. I mean, it might work. The only problem though, is that as games start to push your hardware, they'll start to feel increasingly sluggish as you get closer to 30 fps.

I wish I had a way to test with a led light and high speed camera how many frames of input lag a 120 fps game would have.
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post #647 of 1315 Old 05-28-2013, 05:56 PM
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Once you get past 60 fps I'm not sure if things start to get better, but if you can hit 120 fps then maybe the native input lag would be 2 frames. Still, games are meant for sync with 60 hz, so you may be hitting a ceiling. Although games that run at 30 fps and run without a vsync will feel more responsive because they'll cut frames in half instead of waiting for a frame update. I mean, it might work. The only problem though, is that as games start to push your hardware, they'll start to feel increasingly sluggish as you get closer to 30 fps.

I wish I had a way to test with a led light and high speed camera how many frames of input lag a 120 fps game would have.

Ah I see. interesting. Yeah basically for me Input lag isnt a problem per say unless I feel like its detracting from my experience. I can't say I have noticed it before. I wouldn't be surprised if maybe it existed and made getting high scores in rock band slightly harder or something. I suppose I will find out.
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post #648 of 1315 Old 05-29-2013, 05:23 AM
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Because the prices you quoted don't really reflect a "good" deal. Worth jumping on over the ST60 imo.

Looking at last year's 60ST50 for $1250 new in the box.
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post #649 of 1315 Old 05-29-2013, 06:05 AM
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Looking at last year's 60ST50 for $1250 new in the box.
Got it loaded up yet? I would smile.gif

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Ah I see. interesting. Yeah basically for me Input lag isnt a problem per say unless I feel like its detracting from my experience. I can't say I have noticed it before. I wouldn't be surprised if maybe it existed and made getting high scores in rock band slightly harder or something. I suppose I will find out.

In games like rockband, it adjusts the game for the amount of input lag on your tv, so most likely you wont notice anything. Its when you go to play a sports game, or shooter that the input lag will be really noticable.

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post #651 of 1315 Old 05-29-2013, 10:10 AM
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In games like rockband, it adjusts the game for the amount of input lag on your tv, so most likely you wont notice anything. Its when you go to play a sports game, or shooter that the input lag will be really noticable.

That's not good. I play A LOT of FIFA and prefer to play on a large display for the immersive experience. I've tried on my ASUS VH236H lcd monitor and it's not as enjoyable. I had the 55ST50, but returned it due to the soft picture and DSE that was really noticeable during soccer, hockey, and solid color scenes like skies, fog, and the like. I played several games of FIFA on my ST50, both game mode and custom, and I think I noticed a difference with the input lag. I currently play on a 2006 Panasonic commercial plasma, which seems to have low input lag. I most likely will get the 60ST60 in a couple months so I hope FIFA will be enjoyable.
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post #652 of 1315 Old 05-29-2013, 01:22 PM
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I was also strongly considering the ST60. I don't game as much but I would hate to get a new display and just not be able to game on it due to lag. I think I can still get a ST50 and I've heard that those aren't as laggy. Anyone in here have a ST50 who can attest to lag time?

As for 3D, I don't care about having 3D on a tv. For 3D, IMO there is no substitute for DLP projectors especially if you get headaches, or eye fatigue. I get more of a headache at the movie theater watching real3D than I do at home on a 750 dollar projector (optoma gt750). I think part of the reason is the size, with a tv you always feel like you are looking into a box, whereas with a projector you feel more like you are inside the movie. I have never seen 3D more comfortably than on a DLP, even if you aren't aware or can't see ghosting and cross talk, if it's there it can cause fatigue and headaches.

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I was also strongly considering the ST60. I don't game as much but I would hate to get a new display and just not be able to game on it due to lag. I think I can still get a ST50 and I've heard that those aren't as laggy. Anyone in here have a ST50 who can attest to lag time?

As for 3D, I don't care about having 3D on a tv. For 3D, IMO there is no substitute for DLP projectors especially if you get headaches, or eye fatigue. I get more of a headache at the movie theater watching real3D than I do at home on a 750 dollar projector (optoma gt750). I think part of the reason is the size, with a tv you always feel like you are looking into a box, whereas with a projector you feel more like you are inside the movie. I have never seen 3D more comfortably than on a DLP, even if you aren't aware or can't see ghosting and cross talk, if it's there it can cause fatigue and headaches.

If you dont care about 3D and dont want Input lag it seems as though the S64 is the best option. It sounds like PQ is close enough to the ST50 and ST60. You can get the S64 from costco for like 1400 and its 65 inches. I have tested none of these tvs mentioned so take what I say with a grain of salt. I am just saying what I have learned from those who have tested the tvs.
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post #654 of 1315 Old 05-29-2013, 06:23 PM
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I know it's been asked before but I haven't seen any answers.

Who has played a sports game on this TV and how does the input effect it, if at all?

Thx.
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post #655 of 1315 Old 05-29-2013, 07:30 PM
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Hi guys ! I have been following this thread since about 2-3 weeks and im pretty much dead settle on a S64 for my 1st HD TV !

Because i want a good PQ but I also want to play games without lag

But.. Thing is.. !

I live in canada (Qc)

And this darn thing seams to be only avaiable in Costco U.S

I will call them tommorow to see if I can get a TV Shipped from Costco U.S to Canada ...

But do you guys have any others ideas what I can do if it doesnt work ?


Thanks !
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post #656 of 1315 Old 05-29-2013, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackzor View Post

Hi guys ! I have been following this thread since about 2-3 weeks and im pretty much dead settle on a S64 for my 1st HD TV !

Because i want a good PQ but I also want to play games without lag

But.. Thing is.. !

I live in canada (Qc)

And this darn thing seams to be only avaiable in Costco U.S

I will call them tommorow to see if I can get a TV Shipped from Costco U.S to Canada ...

But do you guys have any others ideas what I can do if it doesnt work ?


Thanks !


Get a VT or ZT


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post #657 of 1315 Old 05-29-2013, 07:47 PM
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Urg so..expensive frown.gif
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post #658 of 1315 Old 05-29-2013, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackzor View Post

Hi guys ! I have been following this thread since about 2-3 weeks and im pretty much dead settle on a S64 for my 1st HD TV !

Because i want a good PQ but I also want to play games without lag

But.. Thing is.. !

I live in canada (Qc)

And this darn thing seams to be only avaiable in Costco U.S

I will call them tommorow to see if I can get a TV Shipped from Costco U.S to Canada ...

But do you guys have any others ideas what I can do if it doesnt work ?


Thanks !

Has any canadian asked at their local costco if the 65ps64 or 50ps64 is in their system?
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post #659 of 1315 Old 05-29-2013, 08:39 PM
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Ill try to call them tommorow but im pretty much sure of the answer frown.gif I sitll dont know what to do lol
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post #660 of 1315 Old 05-29-2013, 09:46 PM
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Another Canadian in this forum said he spoke with somebody at Costco and was told that the S64 is not on their radar screen.

I'm in Toronto and I'm disappointed. Was at a Costco today and they had what looked like a dozen 50" U54s in stock at a great price. The same amount of stock seemed to be at this Costco a couple of weeks ago. My guess is that the U54 was not a big seller for them and so they are not rushing to get S64s in stock.

Hope I am wrong. In the meantime, I have an ST60 on order from Best Buy. Not a big gamer over here but I do like them on occasion. Hoping the input lag experience is not as pronounced as some people here are saying that it is.
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