Official ST60 input lag thread - Page 28 - AVS Forum
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post #811 of 1315 Old 06-10-2013, 06:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by will7046 View Post

Thats what I recorded using the newest HCFR version with my brand new i1 Display Pro, and it was repeatable at different times. You would get a more accurate reading with better equipment, but I don't think the readings are too far off.

If you think about the drastic improvement in black levels on Samsung's flag ship plasma, it's not unreasonable to think that the step down models would also improve. Last years E550 was measured at 0.0085 by CNET, so it really isn't that much of an improvement. The Dark Room Black Optimizer reading can almost be thrown out because it's usually only that black during the darkest of scenes.

You may be mistaken about the F5300, especially since we don't have any measurements yet from it.
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post #812 of 1315 Old 06-10-2013, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

You may be mistaken about the F5300, especially since we don't have any measurements yet from it.

Wrong thread?

Anyway though, I can't vouch for the accuracy of the i1 display pro or Color HCFR, but I know how to use them properly and this is what I recorded and have consistantly recorded over the span of a couple weeks now. From all accounts the i1 Display Pro is very accurate with black level readings

.004 fl with black optimizer set to dark room (which does cause the black level to fluctuate slightly)

.006 fl with it off


Just for reference, I have also recorded .004 fl on my Panasonic 55GT50 which is close to what others have recorded.
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post #813 of 1315 Old 06-10-2013, 09:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Nah, not the wrong thread. I brought up your post because someone asked about where the black level info for the F5500 came from, so I linked and quoted your post. He made mention the F5300 is probably the same panel but I don't know if any of us really know that and of course, there are no reviews or measurements for that TV either. Just info in case people are thinking about alternatives to the ST60 because of the lag and still want to know if there is decent PQ on other sets. There seems to be this stigma that anything less than a ST60 price wise doesn't look good.
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post #814 of 1315 Old 06-10-2013, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Nah, not the wrong thread. I brought up your post because someone asked about where the black level info for the F5500 came from, so I linked and quoted your post. He made mention the F5300 is probably the same panel but I don't know if any of us really know that and of course, there are no reviews or measurements for that TV either. Just info in case people are thinking about alternatives to the ST60 because of the lag and still want to know if there is decent PQ on other sets. There seems to be this stigma that anything less than a ST60 price wise doesn't look good.

I see, makes sense. I assume its the same panel as the F5500, but it's just a guess.

I have not had any hands on time with the ST60 yet, but I have had the F5300 for month now and I am very pleased with it. The performance is not as far removed from my GT50 as you might think, especially considering it was nearly 4 times cheaper. I calibrated it over the weekend, and the results were stunning. It's my primary gaming set now. I would not hesitate to recommend it to anyone, provided they have a light controlled room (mine is in my basement) as the TV does not have a filter to block light.

I cannot vouch for the input lag, I use the set for gaming without any issues with the game mode turned on and it seems fine to me.
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post #815 of 1315 Old 06-10-2013, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by will7046 View Post


I have not had any hands on time with the ST60 yet, but I have had the F5300 for month now and I am very pleased with it. The performance is not as far removed from my GT50 as you might think, especially considering it was nearly 4 times cheaper. I calibrated it over the weekend, and the results were stunning. It's my primary gaming set now. I would not hesitate to recommend it to anyone, provided they have a light controlled room (mine is in my basement) as the TV does not have a filter to block light.

Unfortunately, the lack of a filter is a big issue for a lot of people.
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post #816 of 1315 Old 06-10-2013, 01:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by connmen View Post

Unfortunately, the lack of a filter is a big issue for a lot of people.

Even though the ST60 has an AR filter, it will still reflect direct light. For example, I have a window across my TV, during the day on dark scenes I can easily see it in reflections, especially on the ST60 and I can even see it on the F8500. I had a UT50 that wasn't all that different from the ST60. Where the ST60 excelled over the UT50 was any overhead lighting, which I don't have much of. Any direct light though, you'll get a reflection no matter what. So yeah, the F5500 may not be for everyone, just like the ST60 won't be for everyone or even a top TV like the VT60 or F8500.
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Originally Posted by will7046 View Post

I see, makes sense. I assume its the same panel as the F5500, but it's just a guess.

I have not had any hands on time with the ST60 yet, but I have had the F5300 for month now and I am very pleased with it. The performance is not as far removed from my GT50 as you might think, especially considering it was nearly 4 times cheaper. I calibrated it over the weekend, and the results were stunning. It's my primary gaming set now. I would not hesitate to recommend it to anyone, provided they have a light controlled room (mine is in my basement) as the TV does not have a filter to block light.

I cannot vouch for the input lag, I use the set for gaming without any issues with the game mode turned on and it seems fine to me.

Wait, those black level readings were from a F5300??

The F5500 was about 37 ms or so, on par with the S60 so the F5300 will either be slightly faster or on par too.
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post #817 of 1315 Old 06-10-2013, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonchilde View Post

Even though the ST60 has an AR filter, it will still reflect direct light. For example, I have a window across my TV, during the day on dark scenes I can easily see it in reflections, especially on the ST60 and I can even see it on the F8500. I had a UT50 that wasn't all that different from the ST60. Where the ST60 excelled over the UT50 was any overhead lighting, which I don't have much of. Any direct light though, you'll get a reflection no matter what. So yeah, the F5500 may not be for everyone, just like the ST60 won't be for everyone or even a top TV like the VT60 or F8500.

Definitely, the ST60 and the F8500 will still reflect direct light.

But had the S60 side-by-side in my place with the ST60, I can say that the darker panel of the ST60 does not reflect back a mirror image as did the S60. The ST60 reflection has more of a darkened-out, silhouette look to it, which is less distracting and quite usable during daytime light window conditions.

I'm interested to see how the F5300/F5500 compares to the S60 in terms of mirror-like reflection.
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post #818 of 1315 Old 06-10-2013, 02:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Did you see the video posted with the Scottish guy who reviewed it? You could clearly see the door and outside the door reflected back when the TV was off. When it was on, it wasn't so bad, but any dark content was reflective. It's the same though an any TV with a glass surface. Even my F8500, though it's much less pronounced on it. The ST60 wasn't all that much of a difference, it was slightly muted but more visible than the filter on the F8500. The UT50 was pretty reflective, and the ST60 was definitely an upgrade in that regard. I really wasn't all that bothered by the lack of filter on the UT50, but having the ST60 in the environment showed an improvement and I didn't really notice how reflective the UT50 was until I saw the others. But had I not seen the ST60 and F8500, then I'd have still been happy with out the AR filter. It's a nice improvement, but the picture on the non-AR filter TV's was still enjoyable.
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post #819 of 1315 Old 06-10-2013, 03:22 PM
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I guess it really does depend on the environment. With the S60, when watching anything dark, I had a reflection of me on-screen. Literally, if the newscaster was wearing a dark suit, there I was looking right back at myself !!

At least with the ST60, I see just a silhouette and not my ugly mug. :-)
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post #820 of 1315 Old 06-11-2013, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by connmen View Post

I guess it really does depend on the environment. With the S60, when watching anything dark, I had a reflection of me on-screen. Literally, if the newscaster was wearing a dark suit, there I was looking right back at myself !!

At least with the ST60, I see just a silhouette and not my ugly mug. :-)

Yeah that's a huge difference !

There's no way I could ever live with that.. ST60 works perfectly for me biggrin.gif

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post #821 of 1315 Old 06-11-2013, 09:05 AM
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lol - Yes, you would not enjoy having me stare back at you in the reflection, so best you got an ST60.

Speaking of input lag, which is what this thread is about (lol), I was playing MLB The Show the other night on the ST60 and I noticed something interesting. It made me wonder about the real-time affect of input lag.

There are multiple interfaces for pitching in MLB The Show, one of which is a meter. The way it works is that you pull back on the joystick and the meter starts, and then when one moving line is flush with another line, you are to press forward. If you match the moving line dead on with the other line, your pitch is more accurate. And the good thing is that it shows you where you pressed forward, so you can definitely see if you matched the two lines.

My assumption (and this could be incorrect) is that if I press forward at the exact right time, I should not be able to match the two lines. The reasoning being that with the input lag, my PS3 believes that I'm at a spot in the game which is incongruent with where my TV is reporting that I'm at. In other words, what I'm reacting to is in fact 70+ms behind what is happening on the screen.

But despite this, when I press forward on the joystick to try to match the two lines ... in those instances where I felt like I was dead on, I was dead on. And in those instances where I thought I was marginally early or marginally late, the results bore true. Clearly, input lag had no impact.

This makes me wonder how impactful input lag really is to the extents that we've been discussing on these televisions (and I include both ST60 and F8500 in the mix).
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post #822 of 1315 Old 06-12-2013, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by connmen View Post

lol - Yes, you would not enjoy having me stare back at you in the reflection, so best you got an ST60.

Speaking of input lag, which is what this thread is about (lol), I was playing MLB The Show the other night on the ST60 and I noticed something interesting. It made me wonder about the real-time affect of input lag.

There are multiple interfaces for pitching in MLB The Show, one of which is a meter. The way it works is that you pull back on the joystick and the meter starts, and then when one moving line is flush with another line, you are to press forward. If you match the moving line dead on with the other line, your pitch is more accurate. And the good thing is that it shows you where you pressed forward, so you can definitely see if you matched the two lines.

My assumption (and this could be incorrect) is that if I press forward at the exact right time, I should not be able to match the two lines. The reasoning being that with the input lag, my PS3 believes that I'm at a spot in the game which is incongruent with where my TV is reporting that I'm at. In other words, what I'm reacting to is in fact 70+ms behind what is happening on the screen.

But despite this, when I press forward on the joystick to try to match the two lines ... in those instances where I felt like I was dead on, I was dead on. And in those instances where I thought I was marginally early or marginally late, the results bore true. Clearly, input lag had no impact.

This makes me wonder how impactful input lag really is to the extents that we've been discussing on these televisions (and I include both ST60 and F8500 in the mix).

Interesting analysis. Definitely some great info for this thread. Thanks!
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post #823 of 1315 Old 06-13-2013, 09:29 AM
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Hi !

I'm french , it's been 6 years since i have my first tv : 40X3500 & i think to change it maybe by a plasma ( cheaper for bigger size , more natural ... ) but i won't only use my tv to watch blu-ray.
I play video games & i've heard that even with a plasma there are input lag problems , especially on the ST60. Is it really annoying ? someone used to have a X3500 and can compare theses two screens ?

Buying a VT60 is a better solution ?

Need some advice smile.gif

Anyone ?
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post #824 of 1315 Old 06-13-2013, 11:53 AM
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Anyone ?

I don't know that you will find somebody who will compare the two televisions. I would say though that if you are a serious gamer, particularly online, than this television may not be for you. It is fine for casual offline players.
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post #825 of 1315 Old 06-13-2013, 11:55 AM
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Anyone ?

A VT60 would be a better TV picture and input delay wise, but it's almost $1000 more. You'll see in this thread that many people are more than satisfied with the ST60. Based on a quick google search on your old TV, I think you'll be fine. It seems the Sony 3500's weren't remarkable input lag wise.
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post #826 of 1315 Old 06-15-2013, 05:46 AM
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How different are the ST60, ST50, and S64? I'm looking at the ST50 for better picture quality over the S60 but half the input lag of the ST60. Would I be correct in thinking this?

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post #827 of 1315 Old 06-15-2013, 06:13 AM
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How different are the ST60, ST50, and S64? I'm looking at the ST50 for better picture quality over the S60 but half the input lag of the ST60. Would I be correct in thinking this?

I think that's about right. The ST50 is a fine tv for movies and gaming. I have one and I couldn't ask for anything more. Well, a 55" model would be better but for what I paid for the 50" I'm satisfied.

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post #828 of 1315 Old 06-15-2013, 01:38 PM
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How different are the ST60, ST50, and S64? I'm looking at the ST50 for better picture quality over the S60 but half the input lag of the ST60. Would I be correct in thinking this?

I agree and came to the same conclusion. I game so the ST60 was out of the picture, because I didn't want to be left waiting for Panasonic to "fix" it since they don't really seem to care about it. The S60 lacks the AR filter which in my mind still makes a big difference. The last reason was that I really wanted 3D (I know I'm so, what kids would call, 2000 and late... haha) to play some PS3 games.

Here's the kicker, trying to find an ST50 for a reasonable price. They have sky rocketed in price and even when I thought I bought one from Office Depot they cancelled my order and said it was discontinued. Long story short, I couldn't bring myself to pay 2013 pricing for a 2012 model, so after a huge fuss I made at Office Depot I got a 55" GT50 for $875+tax! It should be here on Monday.

I say keep an eye on other major online retailers and price match at Amazon, because most brick and mortar stores seem to have been out of stock a long time ago. Good luck!
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post #829 of 1315 Old 06-15-2013, 11:27 PM - Thread Starter
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I agree and came to the same conclusion. I game so the ST60 was out of the picture, because I didn't want to be left waiting for Panasonic to "fix" it since they don't really seem to care about it. The S60 lacks the AR filter which in my mind still makes a big difference. The last reason was that I really wanted 3D (I know I'm so, what kids would call, 2000 and late... haha) to play some PS3 games.

Here's the kicker, trying to find an ST50 for a reasonable price. They have sky rocketed in price and even when I thought I bought one from Office Depot they cancelled my order and said it was discontinued. Long story short, I couldn't bring myself to pay 2013 pricing for a 2012 model, so after a huge fuss I made at Office Depot I got a 55" GT50 for $875+tax! It should be here on Monday.

I say keep an eye on other major online retailers and price match at Amazon, because most brick and mortar stores seem to have been out of stock a long time ago. Good luck!

Geez, good deal.
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post #830 of 1315 Old 06-17-2013, 06:22 PM
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Anyone out there have experience with the ST60 and S64? I bought a ST60 to test out and the input lag is noticeable but everything else is amazing. Does the S64 use the same AR filter? Is the picture quality on par with the ST60? I don't care about the 3D or smart features, just want a great picture, less lag, and minimal light reflection. Thanks

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post #831 of 1315 Old 06-17-2013, 11:41 PM
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I cant believe they still have not fixed this.

This stupid smart features on these great TVS none of us are ever going to use. If I want to watch netflix Ill watch it on my ps3, if i want to go on youtube ill go on my ipad or computer.

IF only the S60 had more than 2 HDMIs I would get that since it does not lag. There should be an option to not use the smart features
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post #832 of 1315 Old 06-18-2013, 08:20 AM
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I have no use for smart features in a television, but I'm doubtful they are effecting input lag. I see it repeated a lot, even by reviewers, but it has always been speculation. Seems really unlikely that image processing would be handled by a general purpose processor.

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post #833 of 1315 Old 06-18-2013, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auceny View Post

Anyone out there have experience with the ST60 and S64? I bought a ST60 to test out and the input lag is noticeable but everything else is amazing. Does the S64 use the same AR filter? Is the picture quality on par with the ST60? I don't care about the 3D or smart features, just want a great picture, less lag, and minimal light reflection. Thanks
I looked into the S64 as well and it seems the general consensus is that while the S64 is a very solid value, PQ-wise, it simply does not match the ST60.
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post #834 of 1315 Old 06-18-2013, 01:42 PM
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When I watch a blu-ray on my 65S64 I wonder how the picture could even be better. I've only had mine for about a week, but I am completely blown away by blu-rays.
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post #835 of 1315 Old 06-18-2013, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by sooke View Post

I have no use for smart features in a television, but I'm doubtful they are effecting input lag. I see it repeated a lot, even by reviewers, but it has always been speculation. Seems really unlikely that image processing would be handled by a general purpose processor.

So whats your alternative cause?
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post #836 of 1315 Old 06-19-2013, 07:06 PM
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I looked into the S64 as well and it seems the general consensus is that while the S64 is a very solid value, PQ-wise, it simply does not match the ST60.

Really?
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post #837 of 1315 Old 06-19-2013, 08:26 PM
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Really?

For sure.

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post #838 of 1315 Old 06-20-2013, 03:29 AM
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For sure.
I didn't have any good content to compare but yeah the pq was different. Didn't seem too bad though. Minor trade off for the lag being better.

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post #839 of 1315 Old 06-20-2013, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sooke View Post

I have no use for smart features in a television, but I'm doubtful they are effecting input lag. I see it repeated a lot, even by reviewers, but it has always been speculation. Seems really unlikely that image processing would be handled by a general purpose processor.

Its lagging because of the extra resources it takes to run the smart feature OS.
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post #840 of 1315 Old 06-21-2013, 04:41 PM
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Anyone tried 3D gaming on the ST60 wanna comment on it? Ive heard 3D gaming is pretty awesome
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Reply Plasma Flat Panel Displays

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Panasonic Tc P60st60 60 Inch 3d Smart Plasma Hdtv , Panasonic Tc P50st60 50 Inch 3d Smart Plasma Hdtv , Panasonic Tc P55st60 55 Inch 1080p 600hz 3d Smart Plasma Hdtv , Panasonic Tc P65st60 65 Inch 3d Smart Plasma Hdtv , Panasonic Viera Tc P42st30 42 Inch 1080p 3d Plasma Hdtv , Panasonic Viera Tc P60ut50 Plasma Tv
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