Official ST60 input lag thread - Page 31 - AVS Forum
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post #901 of 1315 Old 07-28-2013, 04:50 AM
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Buy this tv Well after hours of reading through this forum and considering canceling my order for a p60st60 i found this video. you guys had me scared that this would be an issue, and that it would effect my gaming. I play every type of game and after watching the following video I can say that I'm not worried anymore. I don't believe this has been posted yet so here watch this. it doesn't look nearly as bad as the conversation makes it seem. The tv was slightly and (barely noticeably) behind the st30, nothing as serious as what all this talk was making me worried about. I have no doubt that I will still be able own people on COD or any other game for that matter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJSAWczrwUI&list=TLlTgClxPciZk
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post #902 of 1315 Old 07-28-2013, 05:11 AM
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here is another with a little bit of 2d side scroller action mixed in. again. negligible difference.
I am sold

btw the st30 has an input lag of 16ms can't get much more extreme of a test than that.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhBRhQBE-PY
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post #903 of 1315 Old 07-28-2013, 02:32 PM
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Are the two you-tube videos using console games or PC? The lag issue is more important for a PC gamer.

Check out the comments from cnet (scroll down near bottom): http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57587317-221/game-mode-on-cnet-tests-tvs-for-input-lag/
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post #904 of 1315 Old 07-29-2013, 12:42 AM
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post #905 of 1315 Old 07-29-2013, 08:55 AM
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guys, wonderful thread with lots of insight.

I am not a gamer, but I watch a lot of movies via netflix, streaming etc. Am I going to notice anything? Looks like this is primarily noticeable during heavy gaming
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post #906 of 1315 Old 07-29-2013, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by utopianbl View Post

guys, wonderful thread with lots of insight.

I am not a gamer, but I watch a lot of movies via netflix, streaming etc. Am I going to notice anything? Looks like this is primarily noticeable during heavy gaming

The only thing you MAY notice is audio sync issues (if using a receiver and external speakers). The video will be delayed from the original source, so it will be slightly behind the audio (when the audio is hooked up directly to the receiver, from the source). Some have noticed it and adjusted audio delay on their receiver, and some have not noticed it at all. If you use the built in speakers, you will not have audio sync issues.

Netflix, streaming, etc, should not effect the lag associated with the TV in general, though. The main problem with gaming is the lag between controller (button presses, prompts) and what you see on the TV. Even with that, (with game mode on) the lag is not the be-all/end-all some people make it out to be. Fighting games and FPS are the only types of games it will be noticeable on, and (unless you are the hardest of hardcore gamer, with extreme sensitivity to lag) you will probably adjust to the delay within minutes.
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post #907 of 1315 Old 07-29-2013, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marco1475 View Post

Hi,

I'm new to the forum, so my apologies if this has been answered before - I tried searching, but didn't find anything - or if this is a dumb question.

I am thinking of buying the ST60 and I don't plan to do any serious gaming on it, but I am worried about the input lag when it comes to sync'ing audio and video. I plan on connecting my PC and the TV to watch movies, TV shows, etc.: my PC will connect to an A/V receiver (HDMI for video, S/PDIF for audio) and the A/V receiver's HDMI output will connect to the TV.

Won't the input lag cause the audio and video to be out of sync, i.e. the video lagging ever-so-slightly behind the audio? Or will DD/DTS decoding in the A/V receiver take longer than the TV's input lag (and I might potential get an out-of-sync experience going the other way, i.e. the audio lagging behind the video)?

Thanks,
Marek

No, no, and no. We are talking about .07 seconds, a time span that is practically imperceptible. I have zero audio/display syncing issues while using an external amp and speakers. It may not be the smoothest for certain types of gamers, but that's an argument I hope we've squashed.
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post #908 of 1315 Old 07-29-2013, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamHD View Post

The only thing you MAY notice is audio sync issues (if using a receiver and external speakers). The video will be delayed from the original source, so it will be slightly behind the audio (when the audio is hooked up directly to the receiver, from the source). Some have noticed it and adjusted audio delay on their receiver, and some have not noticed it at all. If you use the built in speakers, you will not have audio sync issues.

Netflix, streaming, etc, should not effect the lag associated with the TV in general, though. The main problem with gaming is the lag between controller (button presses, prompts) and what you see on the TV. Even with that, (with game mode on) the lag is not the be-all/end-all some people make it out to be. Fighting games and FPS are the only types of games it will be noticeable on, and (unless you are the hardest of hardcore gamer, with extreme sensitivity to lag) you will probably adjust to the delay within minutes.

thank you Adam, this is very informative.
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post #909 of 1315 Old 07-29-2013, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by utopianbl View Post

thank you Adam, this is very informative.

No problem! Hope you decide to go with the ST60. It really is an amazing TV for the price. The couple of "negatives" (of the TV) are definitely outweighed by the plethora of positives.
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post #910 of 1315 Old 07-30-2013, 10:24 AM
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Other forums are saying Panasonic as released a new FW update for the ST60. Has anyone checked to see if this update has improved the lag issue any?

Panasonic Viera TC-P55VT60
Onkyo TX-NR609 7.1 | Speakers: (C) Infinity PC351, (FL/FR) Infinity P363's, Sony Surrounds
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post #911 of 1315 Old 07-30-2013, 12:12 PM
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I haven't. Waiting on some release notes. I haven't found any yet.
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post #912 of 1315 Old 07-30-2013, 02:04 PM
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I just read through this entire 31-page thread. My first post here. Hi, folks!

I'm very sensitive to input lag. I first noticed it years ago on a friend's DLP and again while I was working at LG, before I even knew it was such a thing. I just "felt" like the controls were slow but wasn't sure what the cause is. I primarily play twitch-based Halo online multiplayer, and am positive this would make the experience horrible. I also play retro games, so I'm very hesitant to purchase this display...

On the other hand, I consider myself a videophile with a smaller budget than some. I'd really love the display quality I've seen in reviews, but don't want to give up the ability to enjoy twitch-games.

Can someone confirm there is indeed a firmware update? Looking forward to new results.

The S30 vs S60 video above -- I can't really see any lag.
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post #913 of 1315 Old 07-30-2013, 02:31 PM
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You're really pressed if you read all 31 pages :-) I started when it was about 26 pages.

I play "twitch" as well. Halo, Battlefield, COD, etc Split seconds matter. Connection speed aside, dying when you think you've gotten off the surprise first shot only to end up getting pawned would make you switch back to a small 22" monitor.

Testing it out? I don't know that the dealers will let you set up a console and connect online to play multiplayer in their showroom. Sending a unit back to the warehouse also seems like a lot of trouble(?).

I'm about to pull the trigger on the S64 version of this tv just to be sure that the lag isn't as significant as with the ST60 version. I'll be watching lots of HD and BR movies as well. Hung on the fence trying to get subjective opinions as to just how far behind the ST60 the S64 is relative to "VIEWABLE PICTURE QUALITY." Really haven't heard any definitive review on that?Just the technical adjustments possible on the ST60 that are beyond the S64. But S64 owners rave about PQ. Anyone?

Waiting for Panny to do a FW seems like waiting for the tooth fairy.
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post #914 of 1315 Old 07-30-2013, 03:59 PM
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Yeah, I typically play SWAT on Halo, which involves lots of twitching the cursor across heads and placing a well-timed bullet... I think 70+ ms would be enough to piss me off.

I'm tempted to get the S60 or S64, but with this above rumor of a firmware update I'm willing to wait for verification. I'd prefer to have the better picture quality if possible.

Otherwise, I'll likely reluctantly settle for the lower PQ of the S60/S64. I'm also not finding much in the way of PQ on the S60 vs ST60. I read an S60 review that said they were able to calibrate it to reference levels, so not sure, other than contrast, how much better the ST60 can really be?

Can anyone post links to where this firmware update was mentioned?
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post #915 of 1315 Old 07-30-2013, 04:11 PM
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Yes, there indeed was a new firmware update released for ST60 yesterday (or sometime before that). I downloaded it last night. I don't know what the changes are, except fixing a high-sharpening bug when using 1080p Direct mode. We haven't seen a full list of changes in the new firmware, though.


And if you are a big online MP player, if you haven't already, you may get a lot more improvement out of doing a static IP on your console and port forwarding (to open your NAT), and playing with the controller plugged in instead of wireless.
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post #916 of 1315 Old 07-30-2013, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorsher View Post

I just read through this entire 31-page thread. My first post here. Hi, folks!

I'm very sensitive to input lag. I first noticed it years ago on a friend's DLP and again while I was working at LG, before I even knew it was such a thing. I just "felt" like the controls were slow but wasn't sure what the cause is. I primarily play twitch-based Halo online multiplayer, and am positive this would make the experience horrible. I also play retro games, so I'm very hesitant to purchase this display...

On the other hand, I consider myself a videophile with a smaller budget than some. I'd really love the display quality I've seen in reviews, but don't want to give up the ability to enjoy twitch-games.

Can someone confirm there is indeed a firmware update? Looking forward to new results.

The S30 vs S60 video above -- I can't really see any lag.

If you really are a super hard core "twitch" gamer, and game often, I honestly would not recommend the ST60. Between input lag and possible IR/burn-in, there are better options. I just don't think the ST60 is a "gaming" TV. For 99% of people, it is fine... but it just depends on how sensitive you are to input lag. That 1% of "twitch" gamers, should look elsewhere for their gaming needs. Only you will know if you are part of that 1%.

Now, for EVERYTHING else (PQ, Value, performance) it is the best TV for the money, period. If you are really sensitive to input lag, I feel you have a couple of choices. You could pick up a Panasonic S60/S64 which offers less input lag, seems to be less prone to IR, but has less features (no 3D, no AR on the S60, no motion smoother), and not as good of PQ. Or, you could pick up one of the various LEDs on the market (Vizio, Samsung), and the input lag should better (with game mode on and frame interpolation off), and you wont have to worry about burn-in. Problem with that is the PQ is not going to compare to the ST60. Especially if you are trying to stay in the same price range. Lastly, WHAT I WOULD DO is pick up the ST60, and also pick up a 22-24 inch monitor to do your SERIOUS gaming on. May cost you $100-200 for a monitor, but at least you will have a bad ass tv for watching movies, and a fast responsive monitor for your gaming.
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post #917 of 1315 Old 07-30-2013, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorsher View Post

Yeah, I typically play SWAT on Halo, which involves lots of twitching the cursor across heads and placing a well-timed bullet... I think 70+ ms would be enough to piss me off.

I'm tempted to get the S60 or S64, but with this above rumor of a firmware update I'm willing to wait for verification. I'd prefer to have the better picture quality if possible.

Otherwise, I'll likely reluctantly settle for the lower PQ of the S60/S64. I'm also not finding much in the way of PQ on the S60 vs ST60. I read an S60 review that said they were able to calibrate it to reference levels, so not sure, other than contrast, how much better the ST60 can really be?

Can anyone post links to where this firmware update was mentioned?

You'd think, but I do just fine in SWAT. In fact its my favorite gametype.
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post #918 of 1315 Old 07-30-2013, 05:27 PM
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Actually, I have 3 x Samsung P2450H 24" monitors for my PC that have great response... One is actually being used as my "TV" until I decide on one...

With the lag on this I don't think I'd be comfortable doing anything requiring input on it...

Hoping the firmware fixes it but I know it's unlikely.
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post #919 of 1315 Old 07-31-2013, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Jorsher View Post

With the lag on this I don't think I'd be comfortable doing anything requiring input on it...

What?
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post #920 of 1315 Old 07-31-2013, 06:48 AM
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I'm surprised you're still commenting on this thread when you've made it clear you don't see input lag as a problem.

In case "requiring input" confused you, I mean games.
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post #921 of 1315 Old 07-31-2013, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Jorsher View Post

I'm surprised you're still commenting on this thread when you've made it clear you don't see input lag as a problem.

In case "requiring input" confused you, I mean games.

Well unfortunately I still get email updates. I decided to check back in since there is a new firmware out. Have you even used the TV or are you basing all information on the thread hive mind? If you were using a PC, 70ms would be a problem, but the joystick console world is unaffected. I own both an S60 and ST60 set and can not feel or notice the additional ~40ms of delay. People are too focused on the number and not the actual scale of time.
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post #922 of 1315 Old 07-31-2013, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Stump909 View Post

Well unfortunately I still get email updates. I decided to check back in since there is a new firmware out. Have you even used the TV or are you basing all information on the thread hive mind? If you were using a PC, 70ms would be a problem, but the joystick console world is unaffected. I own both an S60 and ST60 set and can not feel or notice the additional ~40ms of delay. People are too focused on the number and not the actual scale of time.

No, I haven't used the TV. I would love to have the option, however the stores here aren't friendly towards bringing your equipment in and hooking it up, unfortunately.

I don't quite understand why it bothers you that some people are annoyed by input lag. I certainly am. I've played games on a number of HDTVs and found the "muddy" feeling highly annoying. It does bother people, and is the reason there are sites and displays dedicated to input lag.

Just like some care about things such as color accuracy, others care about input lag. I'm one of those people.

I'm pleased that you don't notice the 40ms difference. I understand it's a "small" number and have read that in your opinion it doesn't matter. I do PC gaming as well as console gaming, and have noticed it on other displays with both PC and console. Maybe because I have spent at the minimum of 8 hours a day on a computer for years and years, I'm more sensitive to it?

I've noticed it on displays. It has bothered me. I do not want a display that has a noticeable lag. I've seen countless videos showing the ST60s lag, read countless reviews and complaints about it.

I'm here waiting to see if the firmware mitigates the issue. You're here to tell people that because you don't notice it, we're all silly.
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post #923 of 1315 Old 07-31-2013, 09:56 AM
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From a little informal testing last night, I do not think the firmware update address the lag/delay issue at all. The two things that people have said have been fixed are improved 3D picture/performance, and fixing of the sharpening bug when using 1080p Direct mode.
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post #924 of 1315 Old 07-31-2013, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by cyberbri View Post

From a little informal testing last night, I do not think the firmware update address the lag/delay issue at all. The two things that people have said have been fixed are improved 3D picture/performance, and fixing of the sharpening bug when using 1080p Direct mode.

Thank you sir.

I didn't believe it would, but was hopeful.
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post #925 of 1315 Old 07-31-2013, 10:09 AM
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Just buy it. I read the whole thing too and was worried to the point of canceling my order. these people are blowing it way out of proportion. just watch the videos i posted. I don't care what numbers or specs they throw at you don't get discouraged. watch the videos. that's all the proof you need. anyone here thinking their gaming will be effected by that almost negligible difference is an idiot. if you need to shave 40ms off your time then you suck at gaming, and can't possibly be a true gamer. if anyone disagrees add me on PSN and i will beat you, and then i will give the controller to my son and let him beat you even worse lol my name on PSN is the same.
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post #926 of 1315 Old 07-31-2013, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by ZeroDiiviide View Post

Just buy it. I read the whole thing too and was worried to the point of canceling my order. these people are blowing it way out of proportion. just watch the videos i posted. I don't care what numbers or specs they throw at you don't get discouraged. watch the videos. that's all the proof you need. anyone here thinking their gaming will be effected by that almost negligible difference is an idiot. if you need to shave 40ms off your time then you suck at gaming, and can't possibly be a true gamer. if anyone disagrees add me on PSN and i will beat you, and then i will give the controller to my son and let him beat you even worse lol my name on PSN is the same.

Could you link me to your videos?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXMsmQqV6zs <- this is the one that really scares me.

What games do you primarily play?
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post #927 of 1315 Old 07-31-2013, 10:15 AM
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Jorsher

"The S30 vs S60 video above -- I can't really see any lag."


do you really even need any more convincing?
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post #928 of 1315 Old 07-31-2013, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by ZeroDiiviide View Post

Jorsher

"The S30 vs S60 video above -- I can't really see any lag."


do you really even need any more convincing?

Yes, when I see the last one I linked.

I think I may just grab the S64...
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post #929 of 1315 Old 07-31-2013, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Jorsher View Post

Could you link me to your videos?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXMsmQqV6zs <- this is the one that really scares me.

What games do you primarily play?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhBRhQBE-PY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJSAWczrwUI&list=TLlTgClxPciZk

i saw that video and the lag was exceptional unfortunately i don't know what that guys set up was like but here's a comparison video, and yes when a computer is hooked up it seems much worse than it does with a console
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuUHt6bBtJg&list=TLT6Lhz-y5Lkg

the console comparison seemed quite fine to me and was a great deal better than i thought from reading these posts

I play everything really except COD I've had them all and am really sick of them at this point. i didn't even play BO2 online, i just beat the game then traded it in.
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post #930 of 1315 Old 07-31-2013, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Jorsher View Post

Yes, when I see the last one I linked.

I think I may just grab the S64...


I know that video freaked me out too, but i haven't seen anyone else have it perform so horribly so i'm saying there's something funny with his video card or connection set up, because the comparison i just posted for you wasn't nearly that bad
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